Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[adom4]

There were global nerfs to "easy shieldbreak"--all get-up attacks, Lucina/Marth uncharged shieldbreaker, and DK side-Bs. That's the context there.

Luigi had nerfs to d-throw and Tornado, buffs to d-smash and dair.

Lots of justified but seemingly random customs changes. Random awful customs are now slightly less bad.

Ganon, Bowser, and Samus have modestly better nairs. Samus has a small buff to fair too.

Pirate Ship Omega is the new meta.

That's about it, that we know so far. Still waiting on endframe data.

Nah regular Pirate ship is the new meta:

 

[DariusM27]

There were global nerfs to "easy shieldbreak"--all get-up attacks, Lucina/Marth uncharged shieldbreaker, and DK side-Bs. That's the context there.

Luigi had nerfs to d-throw and Tornado, buffs to d-smash and dair.

Lots of justified but seemingly random customs changes. Random awful customs are now slightly less bad.

Ganon, Bowser, and Samus have modestly better nairs. Samus has a small buff to fair too.

Pirate Ship Omega is the new meta.

That's about it, that we know so far. Still waiting on endframe data.

As a die hard marth user since melee... ****. This. Patch.

Assuming "No other changes" actually does indeed mean we won't realize any amazing buffs anytime soon.

If all they actually did to Marth was nerf him...

**** this patch. Marth was already unviable. Way to bury him for good Sakurai.

 

[Rashyboy05]

As a die hard marth user since melee....

Whoa. whoa. whoa. Easy there, tiger. Have you already forgotten the buffs Marth got from the previous patches? Like Nair and Jab 1 change? Geez, Marth has literally been buffed in every patch since vanilla and the moment he gets only one nerf and its a Global Nerf meaning not only Marth is affected by this change. You began tossing a ****fit?

Also, while I'm not the greatest Marth player. I'm fairly sure he isn't unviable. Not solo viable, sure, but he can still be decent with a secondary.

 

[Smog Frog]

well...the nerf actually seem significant. i dont think it was really justified though. he was the last character i'd nerf.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

well...the nerf actually seem significant. i dont think it was really justified though. he was the last character i'd nerf.

He did get a couple of buffs though so it seems like they have tried to make him less polarizing rather than straight-up nerfing him.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

well...the nerf actually seem significant. i dont think it was really justified though. he was the last character i'd nerf.

It's difficult to tell without all the data that Nintendo has which characters deserve buffs and which characters deserve nerfs.
I agree that Luigi didn't really need to be hit that hard, though.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think just losing the ability to get guaranteed kills out of grabs is majorly detrimental to him. it was one of his selling points. but oh well, at least his tech chase meta will develop(srsly that **** is powerful w/ fjp)

 

[Rashyboy05]

Honestly, while I'm sad that Luigi lost his main selling point for people to use him. I'm just glad that people will finally shut up about his D-throw combos being broken. At least Luigi still has some other options to kill like F-Smash and FJP but I think he has to try harder to end stocks and given his still unimpressive mobility. That'll be hard.

 

[Wintropy]

I think Gheb has a point. It seems to be more so a redistribution of his kit (paging TriTails ) than an outright nerf. Response to Luigi's d-throw confirms was quite vocal and seldom in support. I guess Sakurai decided to "fix" that and modify his abilities elsewhere; the d-air buff is quite interesting and there seems to be a greater impetus towards combos beyond setups confirmed from the otherwise polarising grab.

@Pyr referred to it as "Diddy Syndrome", and I think he's on the ball. Even if it seems to be a detrimental nerf in theory, it may yet demand immediate meta evolution now that the objective best option has been mitigated. Might be a blessing in disguise if more tech is discovered that had otherwise been disregarded because d-throw was just so good when it did its job right. Quality of life for the greater meta is important, too!

Necessity is the mother of invention and all that jazzmatazz~

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

I'm just glad that people will finally shut up about his D-throw combos being broken.

This is probably the reason Nintendo nerfed him - not because he needed to be nerfed in a strictly competitive sense, but from the perspective of the player. It's clear they wanted to compensate for the change by reworking some of his other tools, so they want him to stay viable. It's just that people want it to feel like it was their fault they lost to another person, and a guaranteed down-throw to kill makes players fighting Luigi feel helpless in certain situations.

The net effect is untested, though. I wish that Nintendo had some sort of beta/test server to play on for these things.

 

[Smog Frog]

loving new nair if just for the satisfaction of landing it. the savage KICK KICK is actually really satisfying

 

[Green L]

Luigi's new down throw sucks. In a game where half of the cast rely on down throw to aerial, Luigi wasn't the only one who lived off of grabs. Mario, game and watch, Donkey Kong, Diddy, falcon, Shiek, etc. Not to mention there's followups more powerful and just as easybake as luigi. Dk's cargo up throw to up air, ZSS down throw up air to up b. Now, there's no reason competitively to play this character. Mario basically invalidates luigi now because of is better speed, mobility and more combos. Most characters "combos" come from grabs so only luigi gets this nerf??? I'd probably say luigi was well balanced considering his multiple weaknesses kept him in check. His grab reward was worth it considering that he was the 2nd slowest in the air and the worst traction

 

[Smog Frog]

still has a ******** cqc game. and his new down throw, while not as good as before, still has confirms into aerials for 20+ damage and confirms into grabs off those confirms into aerials for more damage. not every character has this kind of grab reward(i think only is really comparable now?) and he still has godlike tech punish options(read: fjp)

he's still a good character, now he's definitively not top 10.

 

[Zannabluke]

i'm glad sakurai took the "let's rework this character" route for luigi instead of straight nerfing him

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, everyone, give me a rundown on who got patched and what got buffed and nerfed! Quick!

 

[Wintropy]

Luigi's new down throw sucks. In a game where half of the cast rely on down throw to aerial, Luigi wasn't the only one who lived off of grabs. Mario, game and watch, Donkey Kong, Diddy, falcon, Shiek, etc. Not to mention there's followups more powerful and just as easybake as luigi. Dk's cargo up throw to up air, ZSS down throw up air to up b. Now, there's no reason competitively to play this character. Mario basically invalidates luigi now because of is better speed, mobility and more combos. Most characters "combos" come from grabs so only luigi gets this nerf???

The difference is that Luigi's grab was very polarising in prior versions. He had a significant advantage over certain characters because his d-throw confirms set up for an abundance of moves that were not only difficult to evade even with proper DI, but beat out possible responses.

No character "lives off of" grabs. Some characters have very strong throw followups and this can embellish their essential gameplan, but every character has options beyond grab -> d-throw -> ???? -> PROFIT! The difference is that Luigi had responses for pretty much every possible DI and did massive damage that eclipsed the reward of most other characters' throws (f-air, b-air and u-air had strings, Shoryuken confirm was possible, Cyclone was near-impossible to evade in certain contexts and even n-air had kill confirm properties at high percents).

Fundamental takeaway from this is that it wasn't done to spite the character, it was done to open up more possibilities for the character and to keep the meta healthy. He's different now, yeah, but I don't think that's a bad thing - it just means you need to try something new to get good results!

Okay, everyone, give me a rundown on who got patched and what got buffed and nerfed! Quick!

Consult the 1.1.1 patch notes thread.

tl;dr - Luigi's d-throw was changed significantly, otherwise it's mostly minor tweaks to customs.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean, as much as we can talk about how d-smash getting a tiny bit extra knockback and the dair spike hitbox were attempts to compensate luigi, it's not real compensation.
D-smash is still worse than u-smash, going for dairs off-stage with luigi is suicide, and he can't combo into dair from d-throw properly now.

There's no actual "reworking" of the character, his gameplan is exactly the same (spam fireball/fair/dash grab in neutral), except he can't kill off grabs and he still has no mobility.

 

[Rashyboy05]

So now that the whole WIIU and 3DS has exclusive stages in each version thing is now semi-dead because Duck Hunt stage in 3DS. I would like to see Yoshi's Island in the WIIU version tbh.

 

[Green L]

Yeah, Luigi's fighting style is still the same just far less effective. I rarely see any combos that don't come from grabs in smash 4. I only see down throw spam whether it be mario, Shiek, falcon etc. Luigi was straight up nerfed. He has no new combos no set ups, nothing.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Uh how did they "rework" Luigi? This sounds like a straight up nerf to me. A big one.

I don't see how a better dair makes up for this.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

There's no actual "reworking" of the character, his gameplan is exactly the same (spam fireball/fair/dash grab in neutral), except he can't kill off grabs and he still has no mobility.

We still have yet to see how it will play out in the competitive scene. I doubt Luigi is straight up dead in tournaments, though his rank will initially drop, just like Diddy, and it's more likely to stay dropped.

 

[Green L]

Luigi is basically mid tier now. Mario completely outclassed luigi now. What ever luigi can do mario can do it better

 

[Ghostbone]

We still have yet to see how it will play out in the competitive scene. I doubt Luigi is straight up dead in tournaments, though his rank will initially drop, just like Diddy, and it's more likely to stay dropped.

Luigi was already dead in tournaments bro, literally never seen in top 32 of any major tournament.
Now there's no reason for top players to even use him as a counter-pick character lol.

 

[Wintropy]

Maybe I'm just being naively optimistic, ha ha~

Either way, I'm interested to see how he progresses from here. I don't think he will be outright invalidated by Mario, but I can see it being quite a big change for the character's meta.

Whether that's for better or for worse remains to be seen.

EDIT: *big change

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

Maybe I'm just being naively optimistic, ha ha~

Either way, I'm interested to see how he progresses from here. I don't think he will be outright invalidated by Mario, but I can see it being quite a bit change for the character's meta.

Whether that's for better or for worse remains to be seen.

I tend to agree here, but I have a suspicion that the concessions made for the down throw are too little. He would need something major to make up for it.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi has 'redistribution'.

Lol.

D-throw still has its crazy combos (Lol D-throw U-smash regrab on Sheik), but we lose basically ALL of our kill setups. Having killing setups were one of our biggest strength. We all have seen how killing is a hidrance to Mario in such amount Ally considered dropping him. Now imagine a character with better combos and more strength, but MUCH slower.

It's even more of a character insult honestly. They made his D-throw to have near same properties as Mario's. First we have Fireball re-cloned. Now this? What. Year of Luigi being long gone means he should stay in his brother's shadow? Hell no.

Down smash buff is far too little on the increase. D-air spike buff is nothing when the old D-air is just dandy at meteoring before and D-throw no longer true combos into it. No one still has the guts to equip Fiery Jump Punch.

Oh look. We buffed his D-smash, D-air, and a random custom nobody uses. Better nerf Cyclone.

His MU spread probably just got universally worse. And yes, our Sheik MU got worse. Yes, our Greninja MU got EVEN worse. Yes, our Mega Man MU got EVEN WORSE.

I get it they were trying to redistribute his strength, but the amount of the compensations were very underwhelming. I'd expect some damage buffs, or make B-air not as laggy as a sex kick, or old N-air or F-smash, things like that but I suppose not.

I suppose back to the lab and see how the 'buffs' add up, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

EDIT: And cool. We lose to LM, Pac-Man, and ZSS even harder. I usually not the one to complain about nerfs but this is ridiculous.

 

[Lashurn]

I...Massively disapprove of this gobal more resistant shields. Sure, s' good for the new commers for the communt, but for more competitive players, like me...

...I only see spammers hiding in their shield more...

i rather enjoyed stategically braking one's shield, and i felt like telling those who broke my shield "Feel good about yourself, you done good."
I always thought that the boundaries from too frail of shields, to too strong of shields was just perfect.

ah, awell. Just means i gotta charge my shield brakers a bit more and utilize b reversal more to try and brake shields.

i bet the jiggly-mains are loathing this patch.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean, get-up attacks did do way too much shield damage tbh lol, wasn't really any strategy in shield breaking there, it just made get up attacks poke your shield way too often which was pretty annoying when techchasing someone.

And I doubt the nonexistent jigglypuff mains care that the non-existent marths can't break their shield as easy.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I can't understand why they NERFED DK in any facet. The whole purpose of headbutt was to break shield, but you wanna make that harder now for what reason? The move went from being situational if to even more situational. Giant punch shield damage Nerf is like non existent.

Also, please export Yoshi Island (Brawl).

 

[Nobie]

Wait, a lot of high shield damage moves got nerfed, but there hasn't been any mention of Jigglypuff's Pound. Has it retained its full strength vs. shields?

 

[Rashyboy05]

I can't understand why they NERFED DK in any facet. The whole purpose of headbutt was to break shield, but you wanna make that harder now for what reason? The move went from being situational if to even more situational.

I mean, Sakurai did nerf Shield Breaker so that Marth can't break shield as easily even though its main purpose is literally in its name.

Wait, a lot of high shield damage moves got nerfed, but there hasn't been any mention of Jigglypuff's Pound. Has it retained its full strength vs. shields?

Since there hasn't been any mention of Jigglypuff in the latest Patch notes thread. It's safe to assume that Pound still retained its full power against shield.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly I like how Luigi's Down-Throw is ATM except for the lack of kills off of it or any sort of setups like that.

D-Throw -> USmash on Fastfallers is so cool and it's interesting that his combo game changes based on character weight now which I think is cool, but I feel like they're going to have to bring back some kind of kill setup for him. Keep in mind old D-Throw WAS ridiculous, but he doesn't feel compensated for atm.

But I REALLY do like weight specific combos and neat stuff.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I mean, Sakurai did nerf Shield Breaker so that Marth can't break shield as easily even though its main purpose is literally in its name.


Since there hasn't been any mention of Jigglypuff in the latest Patch notes thread. It's safe to assume that Pound still retained its full power against shield.

Must've been too distraught for myself to notice. Oh well, at least Nair for Ganon is decent now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Must've been too distraught for myself to notice. Oh well, at least Nair for Ganon is decent now.

I'd say it's more than decent, it's GAHLIKE now. D-Throw Nair does so much more damage than D-Throw Uair and the move itself connects smoothly. It's like a fat Falcon Nair now.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'd say it's more than decent, it's GAHLIKE now. D-Throw Nair does so much more damage than D-Throw Uair and the move itself connects smoothly. It's like a fat Falcon Nair now.

Let's not get hasty labeling stuff like that. Dthrow is still easily DIed. I may start playing Ganon in tourneys again tho.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't get it, and by it I mean you people. In this patch there were shield damage nerfs to every get-up hitbox in the game + 3 fast moves that can unexpectedly break a shield for no reason, and everyone is all "BUT WHAT COULD IT MEAN? WHAT COULD THESE CHANGES HAVE IN COMMON?" Yes, it's clearly a plot to nerf DK, Lucina, and Marth specifically. That's definitely it.

Charged Shield Breaker is unchanged. Uncharged Shield Breaker and Headbutt still do 25 bonus shield damage, which really puts into context how silly the old value was. Why wasn't Pound nerfed too? Because Pound, the oldest shield-breaking move in Smash history, only does 20 bonus to begin with. Think on that.

 

[adom4]

Must've been too distraught for myself to notice. Oh well, at least Nair for Ganon is decent now.

It was already great before, haven't tested the buffs yet but i've heard good things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Let's not get hasty labeling stuff like that. Dthrow is still easily DIed. I may start playing Ganon in tourneys again tho.

I mean, that's basically how it works with how it connects now. It's mostly proper and does good damage. Keep in mind the term "fat Falcon Nair" cause it's still slow and so is Ganon, but it makes his D-Throw game a bit scarier because of how long Nair's range is. Sure they can DI but I think Nair will catch them anyways, it's 25-29% dmg overall, which beats D-Throw Uair by a good deal.

Ganon's old Nair was good cause only 16f of landing lag, but this one has that and it connects smoother and does real Gerudo damage. I'd say it's really good.

 

[Mario766]

I was expecting zss nerfs but Luigi nerfs? I'm ok with this.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I don't get it, and by it I mean you people. In this patch there were shield damage nerfs to every get-up hitbox in the game + 3 fast moves that can unexpectedly break a shield for no reason, and everyone is all "BUT WHAT COULD IT MEAN? WHAT COULD THESE CHANGES HAVE IN COMMON?" Yes, it's clearly a plot to nerf DK, Lucina, and Marth specifically. That's definitely it.

Charged Shield Breaker is unchanged. Uncharged Shield Breaker and Headbutt still do 25 bonus shield damage, which really puts into context how silly the old value was. Why wasn't Pound nerfed too? Because Pound, the oldest shield-breaking move in Smash history, only does 20 bonus to begin with. Think on that.

Doesn't pound have a hitbox that lasts for really long time tho?