Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Patch files are live.

 

[Shaya]

Times like these I wish I had thought of getting every personal contact detail out of Dant that I could.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

It seems the server is undergoing mainteinance

 

[PK Gaming]

Fingers crossed ladies and gents

Lets hope for the best

 

[Thinkaman]

And we have... Pirate Ship.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Can't wait for the 50 years of Dr. Mario placebo I'll have to internally wade through in my mind. I hope Dant is on the case so I can immediately tell what's changed on Doc if anything.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

And we have... Pirate Ship.

What are you taking about?

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, if this patch shows nothing (it seems like everyone's struggling to find anything?), it may be a solid indication that balance patches are expired [or they're going to go for a longer cycle from this point].

It's a weird feeling.

Apparently Luigi's down throw is different. So perhaps unjustified fears.

 

[ARGHETH]

Hmm, if this patch shows nothing (it seems like everyone's struggling to find anything?), it may be a solid indication that balance patches are expired [or they're going to go for a longer cycle from this point].

It's a weird feeling.

Haven't we only had the patch for half an hour? It's also late at night for most of the places that people here live in...

What are you taking about?

I think he means that the 3DS got the stage Pirate Ship.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Haven't we only had the patch for half an hour? It's also late at night for most of the places that people here live in...

I think he means that the 3DS got the stage Pirate Ship.

Really? Please explain

 

[ARGHETH]

Really? Please explain

*WiiU, sorry. Pirate Ship is a Zelda stage from Brawl, and as of this patch it's available for the WiiU.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hmm, if this patch shows nothing (it seems like everyone's struggling to find anything?), it may be a solid indication that balance patches are expired [or they're going to go for a longer cycle from this point].

It's a weird feeling.

Apparently Luigi's down throw is different. So perhaps unjustified fears.

He doesn't have kill confirms off it. It has longer cooldown. It's still a combo throw but the kill setups out of it are gone mostly it seems.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

*WiiU, sorry. Pirate Ship is a Zelda stage from Brawl, and as of this patch it's available for the WiiU.

Any other thins added?

 

[Pyr]

Getting a few reports on Reddit/Luigi boards that D-Throw was changed for the green man. Some of you may have gotten your wish. XD I'm caring for placebo. If I can get someone to confirm when U-Air stops comboing from D-Throw, I can confirm if it was changed.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Im happy to read Luigi got nerfed

 

[ARGHETH]

Any other thins added?

This thread will have the answers (eventually).

 

[Sir Tundra]

I can't help but feel sorry for luigi. His one moment of finally outshining his brother may have been thrown away

Good night sweet prince

 

[Pyr]

I can't help but feel sorry for luigi. His one moment of finally outshining his brother may have been thrown away

Good night sweet prince

Meh. The bad: gotta work harder.
The good: Hopefully the non-throw metagame will develop faster now. (Diddy Syndrome hurts)

 

[-RedX-]

Sheik's Usmash sweetspots all the time now.....
pls kill me i dont even

 

[Mr. Johan]

It looks like Luigi's standing grab got nerfed as well.

Unless Luigi's standing grab has always whiffed on Megaman despite the hand going through half of Rock's body. X_X

 

[Nobie]

I know the patch will be hot news, but Mewtwo won a tournament a few hours ago: The Break Weekly in New Jersey.

I think the highlight is probably Winners Finals, where LoF Blue's Mewtwo put on a clinic against Luigi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCR1Q22JeEI

 

[warionumbah2]

Sheik's Usmash sweetspots all the time now.....
pls kill me i dont even

If you're tall then it will work. Short characters don't care.

are safe


Just checked on my 3ds, it was the sqme pre patch.

 

[PK Gaming]

It looks like Luigi's standing grab got nerfed as well.

Unless Luigi's standing grab has always whiffed on Megaman despite the hand going through half of Rock's body. X_X

Tested with both a patched and unpatched version; his standing grab is the same

 

[Vipermoon]

But Luigi's dash grab seems much laggier now. It doesn't feel like FAF 36 at all.

 

[Nobie]

Remember that even if your character went unchanged, buffs/nerfs to the rest of the cast can still significantly affect the character's overall viability!

 

[Mr. Johan]

The outlooks on the matchups to justify it tend to differ though.Conversely, common consensus among Robins says Robin beats Luigi decently enough; I think Luigi beats Robin into the dirt and is his hardest matchup.

Actually now that I think about it the matchup's not so bad after all.

 

[Megamang]

From the data being read by Thinkaman, this appears to be a mostly customs-focused patch. Maybe nintendo wants to show that they want to support the competitive custom scene. Also the luigi nerf feels wrong with shiek untouched...

 

[Ghostbone]

Luigi probably dropped like 10-15 spots on the tier list
He has NO kill confirms off a grab now (and his low % combos seem hampered because of d-throw endlag), he has to resort to a similar strategy of Mario of spamming up-smash for kills, but Luigi's up-smash is harder to use because his ground speed is awful.

 

[Pyr]

Luigi probably dropped like 10-15 spots on the tier list
He has NO kill confirms off a grab now (and his low % combos seem hampered because of d-throw endlag), he has to resort to a similar strategy of Mario of spamming up-smash for kills, but Luigi's up-smash is harder to use because his ground speed is awful.

He still has Up-B, which a few people have reported as being easier to do now. That kills a lot earlier, so the hate train is going to keep choo-chooing.

Also, Nair setups, assuming Nair wasn't changed massively, will work just fine.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Poor Luigi. If the dthrow nerf causes him to no longer have the advantage against Pikachu and Fox then he kind of loses his reason d'etre as the ultimate anti-meta character. This would also be a big buff for Pikachu, Fox and - likely to a lesser extent - Mario.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Luigi's down throw still has very high damaging followups at low percents and while he lost his kill confirms with d-throw, he still has a kill throw and his d-throw can still setup for 50 / 50 situations with cyclone. He's definitely worse but not by a drastic margin.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigi's down throw still has very high damaging followups at low percents and while he lost his kill confirms with d-throw, he still has a kill throw and his d-throw can still setup for 50 / 50 situations with cyclone. He's definitely worse but not by a drastic margin.

I can see that as enough to turn the matchups against Pikachu and Fox in their favor and even up the matchups against Mario and Diddy Kong. We'll see how it actually turns out but if my predictions are correct then this could be a massive nerf.

 

[DanGR]

So short hop Guardian Luma-> Lunar Landing aerial is a thing now.
It has the same or lower cooldown than gravitational pull now.

Floaty Star Bit has a noticeably lower cooldown as well.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lucig's nerf probably wasn't that bad.

アプデにより下投げロケット確定
黙ってRTやね pic.twitter.com/0vqWk99tPD

— na/gainasu (@Gainasu_297) September 30, 2015

 

[Pyr]

Lucig's nerf probably wasn't that bad.

アプデにより下投げロケット確定
黙ってRTやね pic.twitter.com/0vqWk99tPD

— na/gainasu (@Gainasu_297) September 30, 2015

For reference, that's a 22 frame start up move true comboing from D-Throw. =D

 

[adom4]

Lucig's nerf probably wasn't that bad.

アプデにより下投げロケット確定
黙ってRTやね pic.twitter.com/0vqWk99tPD

— na/gainasu (@Gainasu_297) September 30, 2015

Does it work with DI?
How does rage affect this?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here's the exact data posted by Thinkaman:

Luigi D-smash part 1 kbg 80 -> 85
Luigi D-smash part 2 kbg 100 -> 104

Luigi down-b initial hitboxes hitlag 1.0x -> 1.3x
Luigi down-b final hitboxes kbg 130 -> 120, the 90 angle hitbox changed to angle 89.

Luigi d-throw growth 30 -> 83, base 75 -> 55.

Luigi dair spike hitbox size 1.8 -> 2.5

 

[Nobie]

One thing that I hope people are aware of from reading Thinkaman 's gameplay-related posts is that changes to a character don't always hinge on "make them better or worse," but to make quality of life for the game in general better.

There are complaints about Lucina getting a nerf when she wasn't that great of a character but that's extremely linear thinking. Rather than a nerf to Lucina or a nerf to Shield Breaker, it was likely a decision derived from not wanting Shield Breaker to work too well with online lag or something.

 

[Pazx]

(i've done some testing and it looks to me as though he can't really kill out of dthrow anymore [dthrow nair is kinda close, cyclone doesn't true combo at relevant percents, up-b is dumb], pls correct me if i'm wrong as the majority of this post is based upon the "fact" that he doesn't really have kill confirms now)

Is soft nair -> DJ rising cyclone true at kill percents? That would be neat, but no setup either into or from Nair could possibly replace the utility and safety of prepatch dthrow. Up-B is an excellent punish tool but it's just that, a punish tool. I doubt you can get it off of a dthrow at kill percents now, which means you have to land either a hard read or a jab lock to use it. I agree with Ghost's assessment. ( Pyr pls tell us more about nair setups)

Importantly, Luigi is probably now disadvantaged against those characters whom he outdid in CQC but more importantly beat them at their own grab games (Ness/Diddy/etc.) and I'd wager he now struggles significantly more against swordies with disjoint. In fact, I think Luigi had a lot of matchups where his immense grab reward was the only thing keeping them from getting out of hand (I know Shaya thought he beat Marth, but that is definitely not the case anymore). Let's hope the balancing team got this one right, because Luigi might end up settling as a very underwhelming mid tier if they took too much away from him. Dthrow bair will be heavily missed in the Fox matchup but I don't see that matchup in particular swinging too far (if at all) out of Luigi's favour as his other strengths shine there.

Not to take too much away from Luigi, he still has strong points. His earlyish percent combos still work relatively well so he doesn't have any trouble racking damage (AND THIS IS COOL?), he just has to work quite significantly harder to get his kills (sound familiar?). His dash grab was the band-aid on his awful mobility though, and with that no longer being a reasonable kill option his difficulty getting in will likely be exposed and he'll drop a number of spots on the nonexistent tier list. At least you'll always have backthrow, right?

PS. Luigi mains, try to remove some emotional or sentimental attachment to your character before discussing the changes, it makes this thread better for everyone. Some of you haven't even gotten over the immensely detrimental dtilt nerf. If you guys are annoyed (and you will be, I know the ROB and Diddy players were after previous patches) then this thread is not the place to voice that annoyance, so take it to your own board. I'm a little disappointed myself (mostly because I like WINNING and I hate effort) but overall this is probably definitely good for the game.

 

[Thinkaman]

There were global nerfs to "easy shieldbreak"--all get-up attacks, Lucina/Marth uncharged shieldbreaker, and DK side-Bs. That's the context there.

Luigi had nerfs to d-throw and Tornado, buffs to d-smash and dair.

Lots of justified but seemingly random customs changes. Random awful customs are now slightly less bad.

Ganon, Bowser, and Samus have modestly better nairs. Samus has a small buff to fair too.

Pirate Ship Omega is the new meta.

That's about it, that we know so far. Still waiting on endframe data.