Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[wedl!!]

He meant as in the nerfs (read: slaps on the wrist) they've received since then.

Also, why would you even bother nerfing PK Fire of all things? It's not even like Ness is in dire need of changes.

IF HE GETS ANY, PLS NERF HIS AIRDODGE

 

[Radical Larry]

PK Fire is very slow and it can be escaped relatively easy. It's really underwhelming in neutral and that is why it is not used in big tourneys that often.

But then you have the problem with PK Fire Edge-guard Spam. Even if it's escaped easily, Ness can be a certain distance and use it, just to use the D-Throw combos. I believe it needs to be even slower, because even if you don't get hit or block it or whatever, you will likely just get smacked by Ness regardless and have pressure done on your shield.

But anyways, other than nerfing that, I believe that Ganondorf should have a speed buff overall, Luigi needs the N-Air and F-Air nerf, Sheik needs a mobility or power nerf, Roy needs a power nerf, ZSS should have a grab nerf and Up B nerf, Link should have an F-Smash speed buff, Meta Knight needs an endlag nerf on F-Smash, Ness needs a B-Throw knockback nerf and Samus...

We need to get Samus buffed.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'm hoping for Ike/Peach buffs, personally. Such as their Up-Bs actually snapping to the ledge if you're facing the other direction.

Well she can just close the parasol.

 

[Mario766]

Guys, if Sakurai wanted to keep buffi Ike they would have done it last time. There's almost no chance of them doing it next patch.

They said that after 1.0.4

 

[Smog Frog]

why his airdodge? its f3 and its iasa is 34. most are f2 and in the 31-32 range for iasa.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS should have a grab nerf .

WAIT what?

 

[Pyr]

But then you have the problem with PK Fire Edge-guard Spam. Even if it's escaped easily, Ness can be a certain distance and use it, just to use the D-Throw combos. I believe it needs to be even slower, because even if you don't get hit or block it or whatever, you will likely just get smacked by Ness regardless and have pressure done on your shield.

But anyways, other than nerfing that, I believe that Ganondorf should have a speed buff overall, Luigi needs the N-Air and F-Air nerf, Sheik needs a mobility or power nerf, Roy needs a power nerf, ZSS should have a grab nerf and Up B nerf, Link should have an F-Smash speed buff, Meta Knight needs an endlag nerf on F-Smash, Ness needs a B-Throw knockback nerf and Samus...

We need to get Samus buffed.

If F-Air does any less, it'd allow a guaranteed 2+ strings from D-Throw to grab on some characters. Increasing N-Air damage to break it's combo-ability will make it start killing like it did in Brawl, and decreasing it makes it even better at starting/extending combos. So, by all means, "nerf" these 2 moves.

 

[Nu~]

But then you have the problem with PK Fire Edge-guard Spam. Even if it's escaped easily, Ness can be a certain distance and use it, just to use the D-Throw combos. I believe it needs to be even slower, because even if you don't get hit or block it or whatever, you will likely just get smacked by Ness regardless and have pressure done on your shield.

But anyways, other than nerfing that, I believe that Ganondorf should have a speed buff overall, Luigi needs the N-Air and F-Air nerf, Sheik needs a mobility or power nerf, Roy needs a power nerf, ZSS should have a grab nerf and Up B nerf, Link should have an F-Smash speed buff, Meta Knight needs an endlag nerf on F-Smash, Ness needs a B-Throw knockback nerf and Samus...

We need to get Samus buffed.

"Shiek needs a power nerf"

So she can start doing 3% per hit? Nerfing her damage output even further is missing the point of why she's so dominant.

 

[PK Gaming]

But then you have the problem with PK Fire Edge-guard Spam. Even if it's escaped easily, Ness can be a certain distance and use it, just to use the D-Throw combos. I believe it needs to be even slower, because even if you don't get hit or block it or whatever, you will likely just get smacked by Ness regardless and have pressure done on your shield.

But anyways, other than nerfing that, I believe that Ganondorf should have a speed buff overall, Luigi needs the N-Air and F-Air nerf, Sheik needs a mobility or power nerf, Roy needs a power nerf, ZSS should have a grab nerf and Up B nerf, Link should have an F-Smash speed buff, Meta Knight needs an endlag nerf on F-Smash, Ness needs a B-Throw knockback nerf and Samus...

We need to get Samus buffed.

No disrespect, but the fact that you want PK Fire nerfed (in addition to backing that declaration up with PK Fire Edge-guard spam) kinda says a lot.

I know this sort of phrase is frowned upon, but:

Get gud

Seriously. Watch videos of high level Ness play. PK Fire barely even factors, since it's a risky move to throw out. Actually take the time to learn how to deal with it instead of wishing for it to get nerfed.

 

[Ffamran]

Also speaking of Mewtwo being able to keep people out, so few people understand just how safe his dsmash is. Its only got 22 frames of end lag.

To put that in perspective;

Mario ftilt: 25
Falco ftilt: 20
Marth jab: 24
Sheik dtilt: 24
Zss ftilt: 21

Mewtwos dsmash is unpunishable on block to many characters who lack long-range tethers or without top-tier dash attacks and dsmash whiff into dtilt is safe on block if the enemy runs in to try and punish the dsmash but shields the dtilt. It's pretty good

Really late, but Falco's Dtilt would have been a slightly better example; it's frames 7-9 with 27 total frames meaning it only has 18 frames of recovery - Ftilt should be 19 -, it's -17 on-shield, -10 after shield drop, and +2 on-hit at 0% with the disjoint while the close hitbox is -16 on-shield, -9 after shield drop, and +10 on-hit at 0%. It's probably the dumbest Dtilt that kills, the disjoint combos into itself at low percents, sets up, is fast, and has little end lag. Also, Fox's Ftilt would also be a better example; it's frames 6-8 with 23 total frames meaning it only has 14 frames of recovery.

When we talk about recovery, the time in frames between actives frames and another action, you kind of have to factor in not only the startup and total frames, but active frames as well. Mewtwo's Down Smash is frames 21-22 with 43 total frames. That's 21 startup, 2 active frames, and 20 recovery frames for 43 total frames. If you don't factor in active frames, then it seems like it only has 21 recovery frames which isn't much. Contrast this with ZSS's Down Smash which is frames 20-24 with 41 total frames. ZSS's Down Smash has a startup of 20 frames, 5 active frames, and 16 recovery frames for 41 total frames. Now what happens if you don't factor in active frames? ZSS's Down Smash ends up with an inaccurate 21 recovery frames. The theory is that because Mewtwo's Down Smash kills, it should have less active frames and slightly more total frames versus ZSS's Down Smash that does not kill because of its weighted knockback. The issue here is how that translates from 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, FFA, etc. In theory, Mewtwo's would probably be better in 2v2 and above since he can suddenly kill you or bait you in chaos while in 1v1, it's not as effective since while it's a kill move, Mewtwo's in the spotlight, it's still slow, and lacks the ability to setup like ZSS's.

Also, you'll have to factor knockback as demonstrated above and then some more like separate hitboxes. So, Yoshi's frame 3 Nair might have 22 active frames and 19 frames of recovery for 44 total frames, it has 3 separate hitboxes, a clean 3-5 hit, a 5-11 hit, and a late 12-25 hit. If you're only looking for the recovery between his clean hit and total frames, then it's actually 38 recovery frames since the clean hit only has 3 active frames. Even further, there are moves with inactive frames along with recovery like Zelda and Samus's Up Smashes have about 4 frames between each hit, however, since they're multi-hits, you just include everything as recovery since you're not really going to care if you hit with the Nth hit of a multi-hit move compared to hitting with say, the clean hit of Captain Falcon's Bair versus the late hit.

 

[TDK]

Well she can just close the parasol.

And what's his excuse? Even if they don't do that, can they at least make it so you can move it more than a pixel to the left or right?

 

[L9999]

But then you have the problem with PK Fire Edge-guard Spam. Even if it's escaped easily, Ness can be a certain distance and use it, just to use the D-Throw combos. I believe it needs to be even slower, because even if you don't get hit or block it or whatever, you will likely just get smacked by Ness regardless and have pressure done on your shield.

But anyways, other than nerfing that, I believe that Ganondorf should have a speed buff overall, Luigi needs the N-Air and F-Air nerf, Sheik needs a mobility or power nerf, Roy needs a power nerf, ZSS should have a grab nerf and Up B nerf, Link should have an F-Smash speed buff, Meta Knight needs an endlag nerf on F-Smash, Ness needs a B-Throw knockback nerf and Samus...

We need to get Samus buffed.

Ganon could use some speed. No need to nerf Luigi, he is designed to do crazy combos since the dawn of time. Sheik is weak already. Roy's niche is that he is superstrong on the center and weak as **** at the tip, and approaching him is not a good idea in most situations anyways. He won't change. ZSS's grab sucks already, it can be punished by anything if you dodge it, Up B is a whole debate. Meta Knight's Side Smash has really crappy start-up, the move is fine. Ness' mobility and grab range are kinda lame for B-Throw to be nerfed. And it has always been crazy strong, even in Melee where DI was too good and Ness was garbage.

 

[TurboLink]

But then you have the problem with PK Fire Edge-guard Spam. Even if it's escaped easily, Ness can be a certain distance and use it, just to use the D-Throw combos. I believe it needs to be even slower, because even if you don't get hit or block it or whatever, you will likely just get smacked by Ness regardless and have pressure done on your shield.

But anyways, other than nerfing that, I believe that Ganondorf should have a speed buff overall, Luigi needs the N-Air and F-Air nerf, Sheik needs a mobility or power nerf, Roy needs a power nerf, ZSS should have a grab nerf and Up B nerf, Link should have an F-Smash speed buff, Meta Knight needs an endlag nerf on F-Smash, Ness needs a B-Throw knockback nerf and Samus...

We need to get Samus buffed.

Why does Meta Knight need an end lag nerf on his forward smash when it comes out in 24 frames? And why does Sheik need a power nerf when she already has bad KO power?

 

[BSP]

WAIT what?

Larry probably should've said grab game. Regardless, there's a good chance ZSS is getting hit. Her advantage state is pretty ridiculous atm.

 

[ffdgh]

If there's any Zamus nerfs, I'd imagine her up and/or down B are the main targets.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Megaman should be buffed with less endlad and less startup in down and forward smash... top tier then?

 

[Prometheus16]

I say we just make every move a one hit kill.

 

[Radical Larry]

Why does Meta Knight need an end lag nerf on his forward smash when it comes out in 24 frames? And why does Sheik need a power nerf when she already has bad KO power?

Well, Meta Knight's F-Smash can come out slow, but there's the fact that after the trail ends, you can immediately roll back or dodge any oncoming attack.

And to answer Sheik's power nerf; Vanish and Bouncing Fish should do at least 2% less damage each, making it harder for her to actually get a KO. Though in turn, we can at least let Sheik have a D-Smash Buff from 9% (which is normal) to 12%.

Larry probably should've said grab game. Regardless, there's a good chance ZSS is getting hit. Her advantage state is pretty ridiculous atm.

Sorry, meant grab game.

No disrespect, but the fact that you want PK Fire nerfed (in addition to backing that declaration up with PK Fire Edge-guard spam) kinda says a lot.

I know this sort of phrase is frowned upon, but:

Get gud

Seriously. Watch videos of high level Ness play. PK Fire barely even factors, since it's a risky move to throw out. Actually take the time to learn how to deal with it instead of wishing for it to get nerfed.

I am quite decent, but PK Fire is like Sheik's Chain from Melee (M2K loved using it on opponents), where you can actually constantly spam the attack when opponents try getting on stage, and there are actually some characters in this game who are unable to recover so easily AND can get hit by it. But I get what you're saying.

"Shiek needs a power nerf"
View attachment 75773

So she can start doing 3% per hit? Nerfing her damage output even further is missing the point of why she's so dominant.

You missed the fact that I could have asked for a mobility nerf.

Megaman should be buffed with less endlad and less startup in down and forward smash... top tier then?

Not even a part of my stuff, but I will still say that Mega Man does need it, even though characters will clearly still exploit the fact it's a projectile type Smash attack, so Reflecting characters, SA characters and the Links can still go through it with ease.

If F-Air does any less, it'd allow a guaranteed 2+ strings from D-Throw to grab on some characters. Increasing N-Air damage to break it's combo-ability will make it start killing like it did in Brawl, and decreasing it makes it even better at starting/extending combos. So, by all means, "nerf" these 2 moves.

I said N-Air and F-Air nerf. It can really be anything, but to clarify:
N-Air needs to deal less damage or KO at around 30% later damage, with emphasis on some horizontal trajectory on hit.
F-Air needs to be 4 frames slower, but deal 1.5% more damage.

How would that sound?

 

[Pazx]

You guys have to learn that there are certain posters in this thread that it's better not to address. One bad post and the whole thread turns into "get a load of this guy" and meaningless buff/nerf wishlists.

 

[TDK]

There's an entirely seperate thread for this...

 

[Pyr]

I said N-Air and F-Air nerf. It can really be anything, but to clarify:
N-Air needs to deal less damage or KO at around 30% later damage, with emphasis on some horizontal trajectory on hit.
F-Air needs to be 4 frames slower, but deal 1.5% more damage.

How would that sound?

Depends. Nair already kills late compared to his other options. If it deals less, it becomes an even better confirm into grab or confirm into whatever I want. Nintendo will never change it's angle because it's thematic with Luigi at this point. Even if they did, a lot of Nair Shenanigans would still work.

4 frames slower how? Startup? You killed his basic D-Throw combo... And just made me move to doing U-Air traps 100% of the time. It'd also make Luigi's do Bair more as an Ariel poke, which should be done anyway tbh.

4 frames more landing lag? Irrelevant.

4 more frames FAF? 2 FAirs no longer Auto Cancel in a short hop. In fact, 4 frames is the exact change to FAF to make 2 stop auto-canceling out of short hop.


This is all assuming that Luigi needs changes, to which he doesn't. I'm just saying that their are healthier ways to change him if need be.

 

[Appledees]

Megaman should be buffed with less endlad and less startup in down and forward smash... top tier then?

No just buff Leaf Shield again like every patch

just make it the best move in the game and we'll be set

 

[TDK]

Megaman should be buffed with less endlad and less startup in down and forward smash... top tier then?

The problem with MegaMan is again, the fundamentals. You can't have a character who relies almost fully on projectiles when a fifth of the cast packs some sort of projectile neutralizing attack.

 

[Locke 06]

The problem with MegaMan is again, the fundamentals. You can't have a character who relies almost fully on projectiles when a fifth of the cast packs some sort of projectile neutralizing attack.

Yup. He's pretty much the worst, okayyy <3

Why are people so uncreative with their buffs and nerfs? There's SO MUCH you can change in a move that's not just startup, endlag, and damage. If I'm gonna read amateur developers make a fighting game, I wanna see interesting ideas!

 

[Mr. Johan]

Just give Luigi Dthrow set knockback to where the only thing he could get out of it guaranteed is an aerial Cyclone. Done. He gets to keep his nutty kill setup, but he has to to find more inventive, confrontational ways to rack up damage and get to his kill setup.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Yup. He's pretty much the worst, okayyy <3

Why are people so uncreative with their buffs and nerfs? There's SO MUCH you can change in a move that's not just startup, endlag, and damage. If I'm gonna read amateur developers make a fighting game, I wanna see interesting ideas!

Dude, Megaman do has a lot of issues do to his slow smashes likw not being able to punish OoS while being backwards, not being able to effectively punish rolls and also Fsmash not being safe at any distance and pretty easy to telegraph

 

[Teshie U]

The problem with MegaMan is again, the fundamentals. You can't have a character who relies almost fully on projectiles when a fifth of the cast packs some sort of projectile neutralizing attack.

Actually not really. If you rely or lean on a very linear projectiles like Samus, you might fear reflects, absorbs and obstructions like luma/pikmin. Megaman however gets around pretty much all of these things by just using a different projectiles. As he shoots them in so many angles and speeds.

 

[Appledees]

to be honest the only thing megaman really needs to be really good is just better damage output and better kill options. I guess less laggy moves but eh

as it stands his core design is perfectly fine it just comes across as underpowered. I wouldn't be surprised if the balancing team intended that kinda and doesn't bother buffing him in any major way cause they're scared of screwing something up and making him dumb

then again I dunno what the hell the balancing choices for this game consist of really so who knows really

 

[Megamang]

Yup. He's pretty much the worst, okayyy <3

Why are people so uncreative with their buffs and nerfs? There's SO MUCH you can change in a move that's not just startup, endlag, and damage. If I'm gonna read amateur developers make a fighting game, I wanna see interesting ideas!

Uhh... tippers should cause bonus shield lock frames

 

[Radical Larry]

Depends. Nair already kills late compared to his other options. If it deals less, it becomes an even better confirm into grab or confirm into whatever I want. Nintendo will never change it's angle because it's thematic with Luigi at this point. Even if they did, a lot of Nair Shenanigans would still work.

4 frames slower how? Startup? You killed his basic D-Throw combo... And just made me move to doing U-Air traps 100% of the time. It'd also make Luigi's do Bair more as an Ariel poke, which should be done anyway tbh.

4 frames more landing lag? Irrelevant.

4 more frames FAF? 2 FAirs no longer Auto Cancel in a short hop. In fact, 4 frames is the exact change to FAF to make 2 stop auto-canceling out of short hop.


This is all assuming that Luigi needs changes, to which he doesn't. I'm just saying that their are healthier ways to change him if need be.

Responses and Solutions:

By 4 frames, I mean endlag, that way Luigi can still have decent start up and combo ability, but not be able to string so ludicrously fast.

With U-Air, Luigi might need 3 more frames of end lag to also compensate, or instead, D-Throw can simply just have more hitlag put into it.

Actually not really. If you rely or lean on a very linear projectiles like Samus, you might fear reflects, absorbs and obstructions like luma/pikmin. Megaman however gets around pretty much all of these things by just using a different projectiles. As he shoots them in so many angles and speeds.

Except Mega Man faces so many problems, like Link's Hylian Shield, Projectiles and his Bomb. Link's Hylian Shield can nullify all of Mega Man's projectile oriented attacks except for Metal Blade, which can be defeated by Bomb or Projectiles. Link can literally stand there and take Mega Man's projectile game any day; heck, even Mega Man's full charged F-Smash can't get to Link.

Mega Man's projectile game is nearly nullified by Link, but if Link's running, attacking or in the air, the projectile game of Mega Man is viable, but not by much if Link uses projectiles or his bomb.

Even hilariously, if Link is still and Mega Man's Crash Bomber is on his TUNIC (not the shield), he can simply stand and let the shield take the hits. If it's on his HEAD, then he can crouch and let the shield take the hits. If Mega Man tries to respond, Link can use jab, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, D-Tilt and all his smashes as punishment against Mega Man, should Crash Bomber end.

 

[Jehtt]

Why are you so focused on Link lol

 

[Teshie U]

Crash bomb can sticky link's face still. Buffed leaf shield probably hits just like metal blade because the 2nd hit will get his back.

Sitting there to block projectiles at mid range will just get you dash grabbed or dtilted anyway.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Why are you so focused on Link lol

Generally people focus on their character(s) of expertise to avoid peeps talking out of their butts. The only problem is when that person has tunnel vision to keep asking for buffs without proper justification. I'd much rather peeps talking things they know than just talk.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think Sm4sh community as a whole excluding hardcore Megaman mains have a unaware vision of Megaman, that may be the reason why he is so ignored on tier lists...

 

[TDK]

I think Sm4sh community as a whole excluding hardcore Megaman mains have a unaware vision of Megaman, that may be the reason why he is so ignored on tier lists...

Do you have any reliable results for a MegaMan main? If you do, I'd love to hear them. Any MU experience for common top/high tiers? must be a nightmare, everything gets absorbed.

That brings me to another point. We all know Peach is one step away from top tier, she just needs results to back it up. What happens when she does get those results?

 

[DanGR]

Megaman suffers against the meta's speed demons. You don't want to just make his projectiles better in neutral to deal with them or he'll wall out slower characters even moreso than he already does. He also has problems securing kills. I think an interesting fix would be to give his moves more offensive uses in exchange for nerfing his keep away game a bit. Give him incentives to take more risks, basically.

-Decrease the projectile speed on metal blade some, and decrease the FAF from 43 to 35ish. This lets it frame trap better on aerial opponents if you can get a read on their movement, and managing to hit with it nets you a combo into an aerial of choice. The decreased projectile speed slightly decreases it's potency in neutral as a long range projectile, alleviating some pressure for slower characters.

-Reduced cooldown on dtilt, increased KBG, decreased late hitbox damage, knockback angle 50->70. This lets it combo at early percents, but makes sure it doesn't set up guaranteed bairs at higher percents (would that even be too good anyways?).

-He could use some quality of life fixes like reducing the cooldown on dsmash by like 20 frames so that you're not punished with a charged smash attack if you miss- it's a bit much. Maybe reduce the startup on nair from 7->5 (keep jab the same, maybe?) so he can get out of juggles a bit more easily. This would reduce the combo potential of some rushdown characters while having a negligible effect on many of his other matchups.

In all likelyhood these probably won't be touched. I'm excited for the patch. ^_^b

 

[Jehtt]

Do you have any reliable results for a MegaMan main? If you do, I'd love to hear them. Any MU experience for common top/high tiers? must be a nightmare, everything gets absorbed.

ScAtt consistently places well, Daiki got 4th at Umebura 19 (he took a set off of Nietono), and Locke has won tournaments.

Most Mega Man mains and Rosa mains agree that Mega v Rosa is actually pretty close to even. Rosa can't absorb everything, since she can be punished for spamming down b and isn't getting any damage in the process of spamming it. Meanwhile, Mega Man's Metal Blade and Leaf Shield go through Luma. The Crash Bomb explodes on contact with Luma, and lemons always provide decent pressure. Mega Man can also edge guard Rosa pretty effectively.
The Rosa boards have the matchup listed as +0.5.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Do you have any reliable results for a MegaMan main? If you do, I'd love to hear them. Any MU experience for common top/high tiers? must be a nightmare, everything gets absorbed.

That brings me to another point. We all know Peach is one step away from top tier, she just needs results to back it up. What happens when she does get those results?

You make it seem like the Megaman subforum was a cave, this states my point on how misunderstood is Megaman, he actually does fine against Rosa, sure she can absorb projectiles but thats not all Megaman is, that is like choosing fox as a cp for Megaman because he has a reflector,

there is a match againt a Ryu

 

[Ghostbone]

Just give Luigi Dthrow set knockback to where the only thing he could get out of it guaranteed is an aerial Cyclone. Done. He gets to keep his nutty kill setup, but he has to to find more inventive, confrontational ways to rack up damage and get to his kill setup.

That's not even possible

If luigi can hit you with down-b, he can easily hit you with uair, fair or bair.

Also Luigi's up-throw combos anyway, it's just never worth using because d-throw combos are better, you take away early d-throw combos and luigi will just replace them with marginally worse u-throw combos, what's the point really.

 

[Teshie U]

Gravitational isnt really an amazing anti projectile tool. Its very committed and unlike a reflector it doesnt punish your opponent for shooting at you so worst case scenario for them is back to square one.

It can stalemate at long range and provide safety against projectiles that took time to set up like charge shots but its not a huge deal for megaman spamming stuff out nonstop.