• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
9,187
It's a shame our tier lists and ratings charts can't take integrate player psychology.

Not only does winning against a top player increase momentum or mistakes, winning against what is perceived a better character will cause the same effect.

So a Ganondorf player winning against a Sheik is going to experience a stronger mental high than a Luigi bodying a Duck Hunt.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Reading this discussion for the past 5 pages, I'd like to say this: When thinking about character viability, something that is important is how viable a character is for YOU.

People who change mains a lot can attest to the decision process being quite complex. Here are some different reasons why:

  • Sometimes you tell yourself you should main the character you like best so you feel good developing your abilities with them and unlocking potential/repping them.
  • Sometimes you think a character you're playing WELL is boring to play nonetheless so you look for someone more enjoyable.
  • Sometimes you try and find a character that you naturally gel with better than the others - like finding a hobby irl that you're naturally talented/gifted in. This is a true thing, some oddball characters (ie Jigglypuff, Robin, PacMan) just work really well for how some people's brains calculate options and make decisions on-the-fly. Hungrybox + Jigglypuff fit in a way that Hungrybox + Fox wouldn't. We all have a brain, and our brains are wired differently and thus it makes sense we'd ALL be better with some kinds of characters compared to others.
  • Sometimes you switch between fundamental styles - defensive vs aggressive, combos vs traps/reads, mobility vs methodical-pacing. For a more simple explanation - Defensive players vs Aggressive players play differently at a fundamental level, and sometimes players don't really know what they do best. You may be a good aggressive player, but maybe your mind can make BETTER decisions more quickly if you really learned a more defensive character. Or maybe you THINK you're great with combo-characters, but REALLY your brain is more suited to the bait&punish style of more chain-focused characters.
  • Insert any number of other 'grass is greener'-esque reasons.
And then all of this stuff changes. You may go from enjoying chains to enjoying combos, from enjoying no-projectiles to wanting the versatility of a projectile in your kit, from enjoying mobility to wanting someone a little more 'your pace'.
And then on top of it all, you start weighing what you 'enjoy' against what you feel you're 'good' at. Weighing the 'characters' that fit you vs the 'playstyles' that fit you vs the 'options' that fit you. And then comparing them against what you actually ENJOY. And could see yourself enjoying for YEARS. It can feel endless. :p

It's pretty much the only reason I personally practice - to find the character that gels with me perfectly. Like Fox in Smash 64. Which will likely never happen because now he moves like he's on crack all the time and I start doing stupid reactive crap because I'm not a dexterous player.
Most people won't know what kind of player they are until they discover, through time, what kind of player they AREN'T.

For the record, my best character is probably Ness but I don't enjoy playing him 75% of the time even if I'm winning. I always feel I want to be able to move differently and not be as vulnerable in disadvantaged states offstage - it just rubs me the wrong way at a gut level. And these things can be difficult to figure out for developing players.
Relevant to this, just today Dabuz was on stream using Zero Suit Samus while going, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS CHARACTER." Despite the fact that his nemesis Nairo mains ZSS, it's apparent to everyone and Dabuz himself that ZSS doesn't mesh as well with his strongest play style.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Relevant to this, just today Dabuz was on stream using Zero Suit Samus while going, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS CHARACTER." Despite the fact that his nemesis Nairo mains ZSS, it's apparent to everyone and Dabuz himself that ZSS doesn't mesh as well with his strongest play style.
This is actually kind of interesting, because I use Rosalina too, and generally have a hard time properly using fast characters (my tech skill is suspect and I just generally prefer characters that give the that extra bit of time/space to plan my moves), but ZSS is a fast character that I actually enjoy using on the rare occasions I bother to pick her. That's more than I can say for Sheik, Captain, Falcon, Sonic, or Pikachu.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
It's a shame our tier lists and ratings charts can't take integrate player psychology.

Not only does winning against a top player increase momentum or mistakes, winning against what is perceived a better character will cause the same effect.

So a Ganondorf player winning against a Sheik is going to experience a stronger mental high than a Luigi bodying a Duck Hunt.
I'm gonna have to stop you right there.
What proof do you have of this effect existing?

More to the point though, how could a tier list account for low tier characters supposedly having a momentum advantage over higher tier characters which is a paradox since if you are supposedly the weaker character you are rarely going to be in a winning position. Therefore this advantage is lost.

Your theory completely contradicts itself.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
You've mentioned before that you think Mewtwo, Zelda, and Ganondorf/Charizard/whoever(?) is a pretty damn good low/bottom tier. Could you elaborate on that?
Well, first off I don't think Ganon and especially Charizard are bottom, though I do tend to value roll hard-read punish-power more than most so YMMV.

My current bottom 7 is :4drmario::4jigglypuff::4samus::4dedede::4bowser::4mewtwo::4zelda:, which I can't claim to be especially interested in debating so let's not get hung up on the details. (DDD in particular I confess that I just don't understand, which can be a educational discussion for another time.)

I think every single one of those characters is formidable, and except for Zelda do not (or would not) feel shocked when I lose a game to one. I lost a set to a great Samus just the other day, the first one I'd ever played. He was a great player, no doubt, but I didn't feel like he was lightyears better than me and playing through a huge handicap.

The first 4 of those characters would, imo, rank at around 16/26 if you transposed their matchups into Melee, and around 27/38 if you transposed them into Brawl. The last 3 would be closer to 19/29 in Melee and 31/38 in Brawl.

For the worst characters in this game, compared strictly to past games in the series, that's pretty incredible.

Aside: Those numbers would be non-trivially worse in previous patches.
 

miniada

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
310
NNID
miniada
User was warned for this post
My tier list for now
S::4sheik::4pikachu::4zss::rosalina::4ness::4fox::4mario::4luigi::4sonic::4diddy::4yoshi:
A::4metaknight::4falcon::4ryu::4villager::4wario2::4pacman::4pit:/:4darkpit::4olimar::4rob::4lucas::4feroy::4lucario::4greninja::4dk::4peach:
B::4myfriends::4megaman::4tlink::4bowser::4bowserjr::4kirby::4robinm::4falco::4marth::4wiifit::4shulk::4charizard::4mewtwo::4littlemac::4link::4gaw:
D::4duckhunt::4drmario::4ganondorf::4lucina::4jigglypuff:
F::4dedede::4palutena::4samus::4zelda:
what do you guys think?.
 
Last edited:

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
453
Location
Narnia, Canada
I forsee alot of roasting in regards to Roy and Marth's placings(Roy being higher than Marth as well as Ike's low placing).
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
My tier list for now
A::4feroy:
B::4myfriends::4robinm::4marth:
D::4lucina:
what do you guys think?.
Fire Emblem highlight to summon the usual suspects.

Edit: But for real, what I'd really like is a modestly in-depth discussion of Duck Hunt, with input beyond "he sure does have projectiles", "his smashes suck", and "golly, he sucks at killing!" Paging Dr. DunnoBro DunnoBro ?
 
Last edited:

miniada

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
310
NNID
miniada
Fire Emblem highlight to summon the usual suspects.
IDK much about the fire emblem cast you mind explaining who should be placed where EDIT: duck hunt is bad not just for the usual reasons, but he also has really laggy moves attacks that do barely any damage' lack of range, and to many bad matchups to be mid tier that's just my opinion
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
IDK much about the fire emblem cast you mind explaining who should be placed where
I'm just musing that the people who do care/know about Fire Emblem characters tend to be pretty vocal/opinionated on the subject, as we are bound to observe any moment now.
 

miniada

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
310
NNID
miniada
I forsee alot of roasting in regards to Roy and Marth's placings(Roy being higher than Marth as well as Ike's low placing).
What makes marth better than roy and if he is what should his placement be and what's so good about ike?
 

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
453
Location
Narnia, Canada
Pro tip: If you don't know enough about the game to make a tier list, then don't make a list.
Also that rough outline at the first page serves its purpose well enough to show who has the best chance to clutch a tourney and who has the least so there's very little need for a list from people who aren't recognized by the community for their knowledge of the game.

Also the Marth/Ike players can explain it much better (and probably more irate) than I ever could.
 
Last edited:

miniada

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
310
NNID
miniada
Pro tip: If you don't know enough about the game to make a tier list, then don't make a list.
Also that rough outline at the first page serves its purpose well enough to show who has the best chance to clutch a tourney and who has the least so there's very little need for a list from people who aren't recognized by the community for their knowledge of the game.

Also the Marth/Ike players can explain it much better (and probably more irate) than I ever could.
ghadi
 

JB333

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
163
And the streak of no one posting a tier list without explanation or reasoning is broken... great...
 

Amadeus9

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
779
Location
Maine
NNID
Amadeuswololo
Who cares, use our out of this stupid discussion and talk about Duck Hunt instead.

241 pages later and it still goes on, and on, and on. And on.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Fire Emblem highlight to summon the usual suspects.

Edit: But for real, what I'd really like is a modestly in-depth discussion of Duck Hunt, with input beyond "he sure does have projectiles", "his smashes suck", and "golly, he sucks at killing!" Paging Dr. DunnoBro DunnoBro ?
The can reminds me of Luma quite a bit, although obviously it doesn't have the same freedom to do much of anything other than bounce around. But the general concept of "here's a second entity to worry about that I can control remotely" is there. Throw in the clay pidgeon and the gunmen, and even though he has projectiles out the wazoo, I half-suspect he's best played by using his projectiles to pressure the opponent rather than zone since they all stick around for a while and make large swathes of the stage unsafe to be in.

Disclaimer: I don't actually use Duck Hunt, so this is almost 100% theory.
 
Last edited:

HeavyLobster

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
2,074
NNID
HeavyLobster43
Why Robin in B? Does it really matter that your grab reward is excellent when you can't actually get said grab? I don't see this character as more than a gimmick, albeit a really scary one should you screw up. Can't see Robin as able to compete vs. anyone who can outcamp him/her with that little mobility.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Well, at least the guy wasn't nearly as far off on Ike's placement as some people are. I'll be lazy and just quote this.

Welp I got tag'd in.

Recovery: Quick Draw isn't nearly as linear as it appears assuming Ike has to recovery high (AKA when he can actually use QD in the first place). Obviously if it hits something he gets to act again afterwards. But outside of that, lets say he gets it charged (not hard to do). He can either recover high and land on a platform lag free, recover mid level and land on the main platform lag free, aim low level and still land on the main platform lag free, aim for the ledge, aim under the ledge and still snap upwards to grab it, or aim for the person trying to gimp him (which can and has killed in tournaments). He has a lot of options, more so than the person trying to gimp him. If they commit to any option in most cases Ike can safely switch to another. Or if they wait thinking that Ike has to go to the ledge they can then be caught off guard by Ike releasing QD early.

Aether thankfully has a larger snap range than one would think. Roughly one spinning sword length away in all directions. Aether can also poke up through the stage and punish people trying to hit him from there.

While the directions they travel are linear, they both have more options attached to them than it first appears. Truthly I'd say his recovery is average if not ever so slightly above average when you consider how many characters really only have an Up B for their recovery option.

Projectiles: I'm hesitant to link to one video of SM against a MegaMan because to be frank I don't think the MegaMan was very good. Didn't use pellets at all until the last game. But what he did do was use a looooot of Metal Blade, Leaf Shield, and Crash Bomber. It was actually quite rare that any of them hit SM, and they fought on Final Destination. Ike has a very good Dash -> Shield in terms of when he can cancel the dash into shield. On top of that his Dash Attack has crazy range, doesn't get clanked out by anything, and can hit the person twice if hits a projectile and the user at the same time for 24% damage. Are projectiles annoying? Of course they are, they always are. But Ike doesn't struggle against them as much as some characters with no reflectors/projectiles of their own. He can actually punish them once he gets into mid range, which is important. If they're getting punished, they're going to stop using them at that range.

Advantages: Edgeguarding. Bluntly I think Ike has the best onstage edgeguarding in the game by a significant amount. Eruption simply covers everything: its all on the Ike player as to if its hitting or not in the majority of cases. Hits farther down than the invisible ledge snap range, hits high enough to hit people on the Battlefield side platforms, has enough lingering frames to hit people as they grab the ledge. While have a massive hitbox that also hits behind him. With super armour. If they're somebody with a projectile, Ike can just jump and then start charging during the time the character off stage can throw a projectile at him and have it hit. Only exceptions really are Links' boomerang and ROB's laser.

To drive home my point: if Sheik has to use Vanish she should be dead. The timing is easy. She can't flinch him as long as he's gotten a 3/4 charge. Aiming behind or above him won't work, and snapping the ledge will just have her face running into the lingering frames. And if she somehow manages to get on stage and shield because we screwed up the timing, fully charged Eruption insta-breaks shields.

And then we have the options other than Eruption: walk-off fair is very deadly and difficult for many characters to get past. Walk-off Bair and Uairs are also viable options. If we have the stock lead we can just run off, trap you in aether, and drag you down with us for an easy win. Downward angle Ftilt also hits from on stage, as does Dsmash (barely), Fsmash, back part of Usmash, kinda Utilt, Dtilt...

If the character managed to get to the ledge safely, Ike STILL has a lot of options. Eruption when positioned correctly can cover literally every option for getting up. Usmash can do the same with some difficulty. SH Uair, particularly against tall characters, also can work. Once you're off stage against Ike you're simply having a baaaaad day.

On stage, Ike has a long list of short combos that are dealing as much damage as other characters' long combos. They can start with Grab, Nair, Dtilt, in some cases Dair, Uair, or Fair can start short combos as well. Throws that lead into kill confirms (with strict timing), and Uair on par with Rosalina's with 16 active frames to punish air dodging with (which we can use out of a throw either in a combo, or just jump let the opponent air dodge and THEN hit them), Nair leading into kill confirms all the way up to like 100% (with strict timing again). Or once you start hitting 100%, Ike can just start throwing out moves and almost anything will kill you. Dash Attack at the middle of the stage? Good chance you're dead now. Ftilt? Dead. Utilt? Dead. Fair? Potentially dead, if not you're at the edgeguarding game now. Bair? Bair will kill you. Dthrow? If Ike has enough rage yes that too will kill you.

Disadvantage: Ike only has one critical one I feel: juggle breaking. He's not so hot at it. Not quite as bad as it first appears, but not great at it. His Bair hits frame 7 and more importantly: hits more than just behind him. It covers most of his body and slightly in front of him as well. So against characters with no real disjoint, hammering away at Bair can get out of sticky situations. Randomly trying Aether to get the Super Armour also works. Counter.... rarely works but does on occasion particularly if the opponent goes into auto-pilot. And then it can kill them because it has a rather high knockback growth rate.

At low percents though? Ya Ike's pretty much just taking the damage against some characters until he starts popping out of their combos. He doesn't mind too much as that just leads into him in rage with is freaking terrifying. But its not exactly a good thing either.

So we have a character with great range, comboing abilities, strict but existent kill confirms, the ability to just toss out moves at random to get a kill, the best onstage edgeguarding in the game, airdodge eating moves, a kill throw balanced out by "somewhat predictable but not really" recovery that can kill you for attempting to stop him, stuck grumbling about projectiles but can get around them, and a juggling weakness. Seems like lower end of high tier to me. Results are starting to back it up as well: Ryo keeps stomping Static Manny and nearly beat ESAM at EVO Pools (in ESAM's words, if he has just held down during Aether Ryo would have won), Ryuga took a set off of Ally, SM is winning things and was one stock away from EVO Top 32, we have an Ike in Europe starting to win things as well.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,185
Location
Toronto
Enough with the tier list rating guys. :)
 
Last edited:

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
The problem I have with people putting tier lists is that when you're ranking over FIFTY characters in the game consecutively, you basically have to know the ins and outs of every single one, which, unless you're some sort of God, seems practically impossible. Especially considering the strengths of each character and how balanced Smash 4 is compared to the other games, I don't see how it's possible to place an exact rank for a character, unless it's someone used frequently. I tried making tier lists myself, but I realized I shouldn't be placing characters like Wii Fit or Roy when I know jack**** about them. Honestly, the only way I can see myself making my own tier list is if I were to make it the same way as Esam, because I have no idea how to place the middle cast.

Yeah, but I don't know anything about Duck Hunt, soooooo... I'm not making any judgments.
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
Fire Emblem highlight to summon the usual suspects.

Edit: But for real, what I'd really like is a modestly in-depth discussion of Duck Hunt, with input beyond "he sure does have projectiles", "his smashes suck", and "golly, he sucks at killing!" Paging Dr. DunnoBro DunnoBro ?

There really isn't much to it. All his kill moves are just bad one way or another, this issue isn't restricted to his smashes honestly.

Uair: Only links into the strong hit while rising, making it unable to punish air dodges or even pressure platforms reliably.
Bair: For such a precise, laggy, and dramatic move with a glorified tipper effect... It's laughably weak. ZSS, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Ness... Pretty much every quick killing bair is stronger than it. Often with better hitboxes and less endlag.
Dair: Laughably weak spike and being multi-hit means it loses in strength to a lot of raw recoveries.
Utilt: No sideways range at all. Not terribly strong either but is the quickest kill move he has while grounded.

The least disappointing kill move he has is nair, which had to be buffed from having 3 years of landing lag. But it's a frame 6 move with no range on a character with poor mobility so it's overall okay at best.

Then there are his smashes, which in nintendo's defense have been buffed... Just not in any really meaningful ways.
The smashes are the biggest issue though because yea, he makes large parts of the stage unsafe but the area he occupies is often the safest. He can't reliably punish idiots just blindly approaching him from the air at all which is dumb considering his design.

Main issues of each smash:

Usmash: Doesn't anti-air like a usmash should. Doesn't have lingering hitboxes in the air and more likely to let people fall out if caught in the air.
Dsmash: Hitboxes are waaaay too small and the animation is waaaaay too long for this pathetically weak move with an awkward trajectory that disallows it from killing as soon as most others.
Fsmash: Random angles make it just not worth using. Also, the longer you charge it, the bigger the deadzone in front of DHD is. Exacerbating the idiotic approach issue.

Here are the overall hopes I have for the patch in regards to the game as a whole next week:
Sheik: Recovery

Her neutral and combos really aren't that ridiculous, it's just that they're mostly one-sided. There's no reward for getting past her amazing neutral because of her amazing escape options and recovery.


Bouncing fish should have more endlag after hit(specifically shield) to deter high recoveries more and vanish should go slightly less high. (Invincibility frames are fine. If she had less control over when she could use it offstage it'd be less of an issue)



ZSS: Similar to sheik, though less untouchable but more "touch right or die even though you were winning" Flip kick needs an invincibility and/or power nerf to mitigate how heavily the risk/reward of using that move after already being put into disadvantage stage is.

Uair + UPb also just doesn't allow a lot of bigger or heavier characters to even play the game. One of them needs a nerf or tweak. Uair is the bigger offender imo.


Rosaluma: Luma's base knockback needs to be altered so it doesn't scale so ridiculously with rage. Jab possibly needs slight damage output nerf (functionally fine). Empty gpulls might need more endlag too. She's 95% functionally fine though.


Luigi: Cyclone kill % nerf. Makes rage a very unhealthy factor in a lot of MUs and the only consistent way for certain chars to win is gimp him every stock.


Sonic: Safety nerf/Reward buff would be nice to promote more universally pleasing gameplay across the community and cast but overall pretty balanced.


Ness: Mobility nerf on airdodge would be nice. Bypasses a lot of characters crucial area to kill and rage bthrow exacerbates the issue.


Mario, Pikachu, Diddy, and Sonic are overall the most "fair" characters and if low-tier characters were tailored to be able to contend with those characters specifically they'd be a lot better.


Easy-Buffs:


Ganon/Falcon: Less endlag on succesful upbs. Enough to retain frame advantage regardless of techs. Ideally, both of these moves should set-up for 50/50s for fairs/dairs.


This would give them a more worthwhile command grab while making their still very weak recoveries actually scary to challenge.


Yoshi:


Stronger bair with slightly larger/more consistent hitbox.


He needs a consistent air dodge punish. Ideally enable aconsistent egg lay kill set-up.


Greninja: Better angling of shadow sneak hitbox to punish air dodges more consistently. Might need a power nerf to compensate though.


Megaman: Slower crash bomber. Frame trap landings, covers his recovery better, and overall a more notable tool. (Akin to danger wrap)


Peach: Turnips semi-spike slightly offstage. Set up tech chases on-stage more reliably.


Jigglypuff: Pound very slightly less endlag on hit. Only safe when perfectly spaced on shield. However, less knockback and better angling for frame traps into rest or true combos into bair.


Pits: Alter arrows/throws for more consistent arrow follow-ups/kills per pit.


Shulk: Speed up airslash startup. Should be a more viable OoS and follow up/air dodge punish.


Lucas: Uair needs a stronger/larger hitbox. Character functions overall fine and has great potency at low-mid percents and very high percents but at regular kill percents just struggles to accomplish anything due to his very iffy set-ups.


DHD: Smashes need overall quicker animations with larger hitboxes.

Bair should also be made stronger. Too high on the precision and endlag scale to be on the weaker end of the strength scale.


Dedede: Gordos should disappear on weak hit. (2-6%) Only stronger hits should reflect.


Roy: Aerial Blazer knockback increased. (Kills around 140 no rage 120% with from smashville platform)


Falco: On-stage falco phaze should start consistently setting up tech chases around 70% and ground bouncing for 50/50s into bair around kill percent.


Dr. Mario: Tornado should give significantly more horizontal movement.


ALL BAD GRAB CHARACTERS SHOULD HAVE AT WORST 50/50 KILL CONFIRMS OFF GRAB


NO EXCEPTIONS


Grabs are a fundamental part of the stock securing game. At higher percents, when it's time to kill, shield is more common and characters who can only shield and attack safely are already at a disadvantage. But when they can only beat your shield with some damage or positioning by risking their entire stock that's just not fair.


In a game where edgeguarding was more potent and rage didn't exist, it'd be okay. But here it isn't.


Mechanic Changes:


Non-teched ground bounces at certain percents that turn into another failed tech should be considered a jab reset.


Ground bounces should have a set amount of "stun" to allow for better follow-ups.


Revert ledge mechanics to you can only buffer ledge roll to avoid being trumped again.
 
Last edited:

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
Why Robin in B? Does it really matter that your grab reward is excellent when you can't actually get said grab? I don't see this character as more than a gimmick, albeit a really scary one should you screw up. Can't see Robin as able to compete vs. anyone who can outcamp him/her with that little mobility.
Robin has excellent aerials, decent air speed, great grab reward, the Thunder variants (don't feel like explaining), a move that puts up a wall on the ground, two spikes (one of which is his recovery), and items that you get when durability runs out that do 15/18% and have good knockback. B doesn't seem too far-fetched for Robin, considering how that tier list was structured (he's 34th there).
 
Last edited:

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Especially since arcthunder acts as a kill confirm at fraudulently low percents and is positive on shield.
 

Deathcarter

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,358
I forsee alot of roasting in regards to Roy and Marth's placings(Roy being higher than Marth as well as Ike's low placing).
Ike's placing is odd mostly because of him being a tier below the Pits, Lucas, Roy, Lucario, and DK. Lucas and Roy especially since those two barely have ANY sort of showing to back up their placing while Ike at least has a few very good local/regional level players showcasing what he's capable of. Top of mid tier isn't exactly ludicrous if we're being conservative.
 
Last edited:

JohnnyB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
228
My tier list for now
S::4sheik::4pikachu::4zss::rosalina::4ness::4fox::4mario::4luigi::4sonic::4diddy::4yoshi:
A::4metaknight::4falcon::4ryu::4villager::4wario2::4pacman::4pit:/:4darkpit::4olimar::4rob::4lucas::4feroy::4lucario::4greninja::4dk::4peach:
B::4myfriends::4megaman::4tlink::4bowser::4bowserjr::4kirby::4robinm::4falco::4marth::4wiifit::4shulk::4charizard::4mewtwo::4littlemac::4link::4gaw:
D::4duckhunt::4drmario::4ganondorf::4lucina::4jigglypuff:
F::4dedede::4palutena::4samus::4zelda:
what do you guys think?.
If we are talking high level competitive play it looks like it's a few tournaments/patches behind.

- DK is too low, should probably be mid to high a tier now after buffs and tourney results. His cargo throw shenanigans are stupid good now.

- WFT and G&W are far more viable than you are giving them credit for. They have gotten good results in nationals, especially given their notorious reputation for being bad. Top of B tier at the *very* least.

- Why is DHD in D tier? I don't get it.

- Mewtwo is two tiers too high. I don't understand this one at all. No results and a very strong concensus that he is very very bad.

- Lucas and Roy are way too high until we finally see what they can really do. Tbh i almost think they need to be in a special ??? tier until that happens.

- You might be rating Zard a little low after his buffs, but then again i haven't seen results from him.

- At least put Ike in bottom A instead of top B.

- It's a sad thing but I think Bowser is actually waaaaay too high. Everyone had such high hopes for him but he seems to have been almost completely left in the dust by 90% of the cast. Bottom of B tier if not a tier lower.

- Robin got some good buffs and *might* be A tier material now. Results pending.

It's not a terrible list though. Most characters seem to be in the right vicinity, at least as far as i can tell.

Double post.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
Not even trolling, can anyone link me some videos of a good marth player winning. There is nothing on the marth boards for any tournament archive videos.

Does anyone actually win with him at mid to high level?
 
Last edited:

Green L

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
141
I don't think smash 4 needs more combos from grabs. There's more than enough of that in competitive play. Smash 4 lacks a wide variety of combos compared to previous iterations. What this game needs is less focus on grabs and more on character specific followups like wii fits nair to up smash or sonic's spindash combos.
 

thehard

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
1,067
NNID
Barbecutie
It has plenty of variable combos outside of grabs but since shields are so strong you're more likely to see grab combos
 
Last edited:

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,208
Location
Loimaa, Finland
Not even trolling, can anyone link me some videos of a good marth player winning. There is nothing on the marth boards for any tournament archive videos.

Does anyone actually win with him at mid to high level?
I find it funny that there are far more videos of mid lvl Doc, WFT and DDDs winning than mid/high lvl Marths.

Edit: I might not be the best with tier lists... But I am pretty sure that there should be a tier between B and D tier.
 
Last edited:

JohnnyB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
228
I don't think smash 4 needs more combos from grabs. There's more than enough of that in competitive play. Smash 4 lacks a wide variety of combos compared to previous iterations. What this game needs is less focus on grabs and more on character specific followups like wii fits nair to up smash or sonic's spindash combos.
Its not that smash4 needs grab combos. Characters need ways to beat shields, the strongest defensive option in this game. It just so happens that grabs are the best way to do that. Its almost a direct corrolation between how much a character gets from a grab and how good they are in this game.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Marth might be in a weird spot where he's too hard to use for mid-level players, and there are better alternatives overall at high level.

Basically, Marth < Dedede < Zero Suit Samus at Mid-Level but Dedede < Marth < Zero Suit Samus at high level. Something like that.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
I find it funny that there are far more videos of mid lvl Doc, WFT and DDDs winning than mid/high lvl Marths.

Edit: I might not be the best with tier lists... But I am pretty sure that there should be a tier between B and D tier.
Exactly, except I also find it damning as well as funny.

Marth boards are no help, youtube only has clips low-level play or of ally/false getting bopped using marth and switching to their mains.

Mr.E (is that his name?) is like the only high level Marth I know of and the only vids of him I manage to find, he loses. Everything else is like 8 months old or marth/lucina friendlies. -EDIT- I recall NEOs marth recently at xanadu to swat away lower level luigis, but thats it recently.

He's so overrated it hurts. I'm perfectly open to changing my opinion on marth (I thought Ryu was average and I talked trash about him but players actually win with him, so its easy to see the truth) but right now marth is seriously lacking any tournament success, he doesnt deserve to be within 2 tiers of Ike. :4dedede::4littlemac::4megaman::4wiifit::4robinm::4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4gaw::4lucas::4feroy: :4ganondorf: all see more success than Marth.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom