Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

It's also worth mentioning that Marth's counter attack is an arc from bottom to top so it covers a slightly wider range than Ike's and lasts one frame longer (5-7 vs 5-6). These factors are most important while countering moving recoveries off-stage.

------------------------------------
IMPORTANT:
In other news, in the MI Smash 4 FB group we were notified by one of the TOs that TBH 5 will be running patch 1.1.0 even though there is a patch on the 30th (TBH is the 2nd-4th).

I don't agree with this especially since we'll easily have a data dump by then like last time (right?) but they are doing it so no one is surprised and everyone plays at their best. Whatever... but if Marth gets buffs and I have to play 1.1.0 Marth over there I'll be pissed.

 

[DunnoBro]

DunnoBro how do you edgeguard pika? And, how do you plan on recovering without a hitbox against pika? I'd imagine the universals like DJ + aerial/airdodge have significant counterplay, but im not familiar with DHD's ability to cover himself with items.

Trick shot is a safe challenge to QA. Doesn't always beat it but if pika hits it while recovering high it follows him, and it can hit him out of QA though it seems inconsistent. Even if i don't reverse shot it, if the turnaround part of QA hits trickshot close enough to the ledge it will follow him to the ledge and challenge his 2-frame ledge grab.

Also dhd can clear a path to the ledge with can if he doesn't think he'll snap quick enough. Pika definitely edgeguards dhd harder than the converse though.

DHD has decent horizontal anti-edgeguard option back towards the stage, characters with spikes however are the big issue.

ZSS is much worse since I can't edgeguard her and die at 40% if i go for a read and fail. Luckily most ZSS I play are quick on the grab finger and don't know the timing to grab dhd out of fsmash endlag.

 

[Nobie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X504v3v3iqQ

ZeRo calls Roy the best swordsman, citing his solid followups, but says that players haven't developed him enough. There's been quite a bit of disagreement in general as to where Roy stands even in this thread.

Is it one of those situations where Roy does better against the top tiers due to his particular qualities, and that his critics point more towards his issues against characters in the lower tiers, particularly his fellow swordmen?

 

[meleebrawler]

I would have thought that Robin's zoning, good as it may be, is almost inherently inferior to every other zoner in the game since he has limited ammo to work with.

And when it runs out, he gets a book.

 

[Jamurai]

Thought I'd chip in on edgeguarding. MK is excellent at it, he has 6 jumps and three good recovery options so he can go as deep as he likes for as long as he likes. He also has good disjoints in Dair, the back hitbox of Nair and Bair. Dair sends them at a semi-spike angle if you get the right side of the hitbox. Bair has a knockback growth of over 200 and is multihit which is good for catching airdodges. Nair is especially good for catching teleport recoveries to the ledge because the hitbox lasts a while. I don't know if he's the best edgeguarder in the game, but he's certainly up there.

Also, not to fuel this argument again, but lol at Roy best swordsman. I think he forgot about a certain bat-ball. Although I guess MK isn't a 'man' technically. I would also put Ike above Roy tbh.

 

[Blobface]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X504v3v3iqQ

ZeRo calls Roy the best swordsman, citing his solid followups, but says that players haven't developed him enough. There's been quite a bit of disagreement in general as to where Roy stands even in this thread.

Is it one of those situations where Roy does better against the top tiers due to his particular qualities, and that his critics point more towards his issues against characters in the lower tiers, particularly his fellow swordmen?

Here we go again!

And TBH5 not using the new patch seems odd. I could understand it if they set their systems up in advance but I doubt we're going to see any changes huge enough to impact someones results.

 

[adom4]

If we're talking about edgeguarding i think Ganon is definitely up there, every aerial he has is good for edgeguarding (especially U-air).

 

[Asdioh]

Is it one of those tournaments where the TO provides absolutely every system, and no players bring their own? Because otherwise, I don't see how that's going to happen. The timing is really close though, so I can kind of understand it.

also re: "Luigi has the best set of aerials no questions asked"
I really don't buy that. Damage per hit + disjointedness on Ganondorf's aerials doesn't seem to be accounted for here. If his aerials were on someone with more speed, or easier ways to get grabs/throws that lead into those aerials, it would be absolutely disgusting.

 

[DunnoBro]

also re: "Luigi has the best set of aerials no questions asked"
I really don't buy that. Damage per hit + disjointedness on Ganondorf's aerials doesn't seem to be accounted for here. If his aerials were on someone with more speed, or easier ways to get grabs/throws that lead into those aerials, it would be absolutely disgusting.

Luigi's aerials are safer, combo/frame trap better, and also provide great safety while in disadvantage.

Ganon's aerials are definitely better offensively, but luigi's safety, consistency, an holy crap that nair... I'd say they are about on the same level of potential potency but luigi's would have more general appeal and usage than ganon's.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Is it one of those tournaments where the TO provides absolutely every system, and no players bring their own? Because otherwise, I don't see how that's going to happen. The timing is really close though, so I can kind of understand it.

also re: "Luigi has the best set of aerials no questions asked"
I really don't buy that. Damage per hit + disjointedness on Ganondorf's aerials doesn't seem to be accounted for here. If his aerials were on someone with more speed, or easier ways to get grabs/throws that lead into those aerials, it would be absolutely disgusting.

The guy that asked that question said it was on Yoshi.

Here we go again!

And TBH5 not using the new patch seems odd. I could understand it if they set their systems up in advance but I doubt we're going to see any changes huge enough to impact someones results.

I think this may be so that people have more than five days to practice.

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy's the best swordsman in the game.

In the alternate reality where Pit, Dark Pit, Ike, Marth, Lucina, MK, and maybe a few other swordsmen don't exist.

Like, even the reddit thread doesn't agree with Zero. Besides the usual Marth hate it seems like the Roy hype has finally died off, actually...

 

[hypersonicJD]

Sooo, I don't want to brag or pressume things about my country (Mexico) Or anything. But can we agree that Mexico is starting to catch-up and actually have very good players? This happened on a Mexican tourney and i'm getting impressed by it. What do you guys think?

Dat Comeback though.

 

[Asdioh]

Luigi's aerials are safer, combo/frame trap better, and also provide great safety while in disadvantage.

Ganon's aerials are definitely better offensively, but luigi's safety, consistency, an holy crap that nair... I'd say they are about on the same level of potential potency but luigi's would have more general appeal and usage than ganon's.

How does Luigi's Nair work, exactly? We don't have hitbox viewers in this game, but I was under the impression that when it first comes out, it has a big hitbox, but only for a frame or two, and then it goes down. In fact, it goes down so much that I've beaten it before with Kirby's Upair, which isn't disjointed at all. Beaten, not even traded. Not to mention that Luigi's Nair is incredibly easy to shield and punish. As for disadvantage, remember we're talking a hypothetical where a character has great air mobility, so "which set of aerials would be best if mobility wasn't an issue." Anywho, Ganondorf's aerials are amazing and I think I'm right, and that's my opinion.

Speaking of aerials in disadvantage, did you know Kirby's Nair is frame 10, which is the same speed as DK's and ZSS'? Did you know the only Nairs that come out slower than his are Greninja, Ike, Swordsman, ROB, and Shulk? All of which are disjointed? Did you know that other "sex kick" style Nairs all come out significantly faster, with the notorious frame 4 ones from the likes of Mario bros and Fox, and often with disjoints? The upside is that Kirby's Nair has low landing lag, but having no fast "combo breaker" is definitely a painful thing on a dude like Kirby. Has anyone ever heard of a Japanese Kirby, or did they give up on the character forever ago ;_;?

 

[san.]

None of these things you mentioned are that great or reliable and many aren't character specific.

Even the counter isn't anything special because it doesn't have much base knockback. Marth's has 90 base kb and counters earlier.

At base damage, Ike's counter exceeds Marth's in knockback after 70%. Most of the time, they are still close anyways.
At 15% counter damage, Ike's counter exceeds Marth's in knockback after 59%.

At high %, Ike's is just a lot more dangerous, while Marth's is moderately dangerous throughout. Recovery moves are likely to only trigger the base damage on counters. Any damaging upB that gets countered and Ike's counter shines through even more.

I have no idea what the hitboxes look like. I do know that Ike has a ton of invisible hitboxes around his counter slash, though.

As for the other edgeguarding attacks, they work just fine. It's optimal to retreat back on stage for the autocancel frames. All of the options together are worth more than the sum of each part, since they cover different areas of the stage and options. It's not very good if your recovery gets countered by Ike, even though only like 15 characters are affected.

Yeah, but it comes out slower. His counter is active on frame 9, while Marth's is frame 5:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ike
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

Doesn't matter much for edgeguards. Ike's lasts 3 frames longer total and 7 frames longer after the counter begins, meaning that the opponent can't delay as easily.

 

[Mario766]

I love Zero's reasons and he ignores Ike where it's exactly the same but is safer, better range and has a much better recovery LOL.

One of his reasons was Roy kills at 50 with rage. Ike kills at 40 with rage LOL.

 

[TurboLink]

Sooo, I don't want to brag or pressume things about my country (Mexico) Or anything. But can we agree that Mexico is starting to catch-up and actually have very good players? This happened on a Mexican tourney and i'm getting impressed by it. What do you guys think?

Dat Comeback though.

Pairo, Nairo's long lost younger brother. :^) This was entertaining. I like this Meta Knight player.

LOL @ that ending. That's why I think Zero Suit Samus has the best punish game. xD

 

[Locke 06]

I love Zero's reasons and he ignores Ike where it's exactly the same but is safer, better range and has a much better recovery LOL.

One of his reasons was Roy kills at 50 with rage. Ike kills at 40 with rage LOL.

Roy has functional smash attacks though.

 

[HFlash]

now im thinking...who has the best set of aerials overall, disregarding mobility?(lets assume that these aerials are on )
i think are all candidates...am i too generous?

How has no one mentioned ? Her Fair has the blissful combination of range, disjoint, frame data, and kill power other Fairs dreamed they had.

It's also worth mentioning that Marth's counter attack is an arc from bottom to top so it covers a slightly wider range than Ike's and lasts one frame longer (5-7 vs 5-6). These factors are most important while countering moving recoveries off-stage.

------------------------------------
IMPORTANT:
In other news, in the MI Smash 4 FB group we were notified by one of the TOs that TBH 5 will be running patch 1.1.0 even though there is a patch on the 30th (TBH is the 2nd-4th).

I don't agree with this especially since we'll easily have a data dump by then like last time (right?) but they are doing it so no one is surprised and everyone plays at their best. Whatever... but if Marth gets buffs and I have to play 1.1.0 Marth over there I'll be pissed.

Then be well prepared to be pissed.

Edit:

Roy has functional smash attacks though.

To be fair, Ike's tilts work as functional smash attacks. (And Ike's Usmash definitely has it's uses).

 

[DunnoBro]

How does Luigi's Nair work, exactly? We don't have hitbox viewers in this game, but I was under the impression that when it first comes out, it has a big hitbox, but only for a frame or two, and then it goes down. In fact, it goes down so much that I've beaten it before with Kirby's Upair, which isn't disjointed at all. Beaten, not even traded. Not to mention that Luigi's Nair is incredibly easy to shield and punish. As for disadvantage, remember we're talking a hypothetical where a character has great air mobility, so "which set of aerials would be best if mobility wasn't an issue." Anywho, Ganondorf's aerials are amazing and I think I'm right, and that's my opinion.

The damage and hitbox decreases the longer it stays out essentially.

But uh, no. Luigi's nair is not incredibly easy to shield and punish because it's strong af. Unless it's the lingering hit or they fail to weave away after hitting, it can be fairly safe on shield.

Also, no matter how mobile the character, they'd still benefit a lot from the "Get off me/let me land/meaty combo starter/extender" that dragon punches provide. Need? Probably not, but imagine sheik or fox if you had to read a nair before every extra string.

It's only somewhat fair on luigi because if he got comboed for absolutely free he'd get carried offstage 100% of the time for edgeguard scenarios, of which he's very weak to.

 

[Mario766]

Roy has functional smash attacks though.

We also have a frame 11 up tilt that kills pre-100, and a f-tilt that is safe on shield when spaced that kills at 100.

We also have an up smash that is functional that kills at 40 with rage.

 

[wedl!!]

Peach's aerials aren't going to be that great on a character without float, really. Although they're fine, they're based around her ability to float.

 

[Pazzo.]

I would have thought that Robin's zoning, good as it may be, is almost inherently inferior to every other zoner in the game since he has limited ammo to work with.

You would think that, but as long as we don't run out of Arcfire and Thunder at the same time, we're fine because the respawn timer for those is close to 30 sec. IIRC.

 

[Green L]

Why doesn't anyone mention dr mario's frame 3 nair? He can break combos too

 

[MachoCheeze]

Why doesn't anyone mention dr mario's frame 3 nair? He can break combos too

Can his frame 3 combo breaker also kill at like %100?

 

[Vipermoon]

san. The frame 5 vs. frame 9 matters a lot (for me at least). There have been many cases where I barely get the counter in time where I could've been killed if I didn't.

 

[Mr. Johan]

How does Luigi's Nair work, exactly? We don't have hitbox viewers in this game, but I was under the impression that when it first comes out, it has a big hitbox, but only for a frame or two, and then it goes down.

Luigi can Nair punish Robin's disjointed Jab 2 on hit before he throws out Fire Jab, and can Nair punish Robin in the middle of Wind Jab.

Luigi punishes people for good spacing.

Dumb.

You would think that, but as long as we don't run out of Arcfire and Thunder at the same time, we're fine because the respawn timer for those is close to 30 sec. IIRC.

30 seconds, dear lord no. 11 seconds for Fire, 10 seconds for Thunder. It is possible to run out of both accidentally, but if that happens it's only for about 3-4 seconds, typically.

 

[David Viran]

LOL @ that ending. That's why I think Zero Suit Samus has the best punish game. xD

That's because she does.

 

[Ffamran]

Why doesn't anyone mention dr mario's frame 3 nair? He can break combos too

Because it starts out weak before getting stronger? That was his shtick with his Nair compared to Mario's.

And before anything else is said, Little Mac and Falco cannot reliably break combos either with their frame 1 and frame 3 Nairs due to how they function in contrast to the other frame 3 to 5 aerials.

 

[san.]

san. The frame 5 vs. frame 9 matters a lot (for me at least). There have been many cases where I barely get the counter in time where I could've been killed if I didn't.

Yeah, just differences of opinion. There aren't many upBs where Ike would need to time the counter the precisely where counter is actually useful. Most of those times I would rather use another option like an aerial, air dodge bait, tilt, eruption, etc.

5 frame counter lets Marth more easily counter aerials and reactionary quick upBs like shoryuken, while Ike will counter in the general area and rely on the lingering frames only when the opponent has a limited time to use his move.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Yo I thought we were cool man.

What the ****?

Ryu isn't the only one who can use his up b to punish. He was the first character to come to mind.

 

[Man Li Gi]

IMPORTANT:
In other news, in the MI Smash 4 FB group we were notified by one of the TOs that TBH 5 will be running patch 1.1.0 even though there is a patch on the 30th (TBH is the 2nd-4th).

I don't agree with this especially since we'll easily have a data dump by then like last time (right?) but they are doing it so no one is surprised and everyone plays at their best. Whatever... but if Marth gets buffs and I have to play 1.1.0 Marth over there I'll be pissed.

Juggleguy does this type of stuff all the time and us Illinois peeps hate it. Granted we are a small region compared to state population, many have sworn off from going to TBH5 becuz of the way Juggleguy treats his tournaments. He always wants it his way or the high way. He still bans wobbling for Melee and bans wireless controllers (I don't use them, peeps I know uses them). He wants TVs to reach around 16' for a CRT, yet CRTs are pain to have already, but having it that large? Last year he changed how many peeps make it out of pools cuz there weren't enough setups.....if you didn't have a restriction, this wouldn't have happened/rant over.

The impending patch got me thinking right after 1.10 came out. Some were quick to say that Ganon, Dr. Mario, and Ike got the biggest buffs. It turned out Robin and Dk were actually the winners (and yo a lesser extent, Kirby). All they did was play with grabs and then, boom they get better. This makes me wonder, will future buffs be grab buffs, as they seem the most effective unless you decide you want to do the Ike treatment (increase hit box activity, utility in angles, increase hitbox size on key moves; etc.).

 

[Pyr]

How does Luigi's Nair work, exactly? We don't have hitbox viewers in this game, but I was under the impression that when it first comes out, it has a big hitbox, but only for a frame or two, and then it goes down. In fact, it goes down so much that I've beaten it before with Kirby's Upair, which isn't disjointed at all.

Fun fact with Luigi's Nair: Luigi physically grows in size about 10% on frame 3, shrinks to about 10% smaller then he actually is frame 4, then becomes normal size again on frame 5. I was doing some data gathering and found this to be a bit silly, so it's stuck with me.

This might be where the big hitbox thing comes in.

Can his frame 3 combo breaker also kill at like %100?

Luigi's can't, either. From D-Throw it starts killing at 150%ish to 130%ish depending on rage. The only way to get killed before 130% on the ground is if a) It's fresh (it's not going to be), b) you're charging a Smash attack and c) Luigi is at 150%. It's a strong move not because it hits like a truck (RIP Brawl Nair) but because it's fantastic via it's utility.

 

[Pazzo.]

Luigi can Nair punish Robin's disjointed Jab 2 on hit before he throws out Fire Jab, and can Nair punish Robin in the middle of Wind Jab.

Luigi punishes people for good spacing.

Dumb.



30 seconds, dear lord no. 11 seconds for Fire, 10 seconds for Thunder. It is possible to run out of both accidentally, but if that happens it's only for about 3-4 seconds, typically.

Thanks.

It always feels longer in the middle of battle.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bit late, but I'm pretty sure Robin with levin sword has the best aerials in the game.

Fair/Bair/Uair are just amazing coverage with absurd damage output and kill power.

 

[Otterz]

So after reading through this, people need to stop complaining about ZSS's UpB like its unbeatable. Yes its a good move, but you need to capitalize on what isn't good about ZSS and learn a little bit about the MU. ZSS has a subpar neutral that can be beat out by many characters and her grab is bad. Yes Pac-Man, Samus and (debatably) Robin have worse grabs but that doesn't make ZSS's grab any better.

Here is a visual representation of her grab. (Credit to Trifroze for the gif.)

Spoiler: Gif

Please learn and acknowledge a character's flaws instead of just their strongest tools.

 

[juddy96]

Juggleguy does this type of stuff all the time and us Illinois peeps hate it. Granted we are a small region compared to state population, many have sworn off from going to TBH5 becuz of the way Juggleguy treats his tournaments. He always wants it his way or the high way. He still bans wobbling for Melee and bans wireless controllers (I don't use them, peeps I know uses them). He wants TVs to reach around 16' for a CRT, yet CRTs are pain to have already, but having it that large? Last year he changed how many peeps make it out of pools cuz there weren't enough setups.....if you didn't have a restriction, this wouldn't have happened/rant over.

The impending patch got me thinking right after 1.10 came out. Some were quick to say that Ganon, Dr. Mario, and Ike got the biggest buffs. It turned out Robin and Dk were actually the winners (and yo a lesser extent, Kirby). All they did was play with grabs and then, boom they get better. This makes me wonder, will future buffs be grab buffs, as they seem the most effective unless you decide you want to do the Ike treatment (increase hit box activity, utility in angles, increase hitbox size on key moves; etc.).

He doesn't ban wobbling anymore.

 

[DunnoBro]

So after reading through this, people need to stop complaining about ZSS's UpB like its unbeatable.

No one said it was unbeatable and unbeatable is not the line we have to cross before a move or character becomes problematic.

I don't personally think it needs a nerf, but your response to the criticisms of it isn't really on-point either.

 

[Antonykun]

ZSS has a subpar neutral that can be beat out by many characters and her grab is bad. Yes Pac-Man, Samus and (debatably) Robin have worse grabs but that doesn't make ZSS's grab any better.

First of all how is a character with mobility that good and aerials that good have a neutral any worse than "passable" let alone not "amazing"
Second ZSS has the honor of having the best tether in the game play it as a tether grab rather than a normal grab (i mean frame 12+ is still bad but seriously because of her amazing pressure game she'll get a grab when she needs to) and characters who rely on laggy disjointed hitboxes like most Swordfighters despise that grab (i could be wrong on that though)
Third, and most importantly, the fact you left out Villager on that list of Terrible Grabs triggers me so hard

 

[Sir Tundra]

When it come's to aerials I really think has the best set IMO. Sure their not the strongest and don't pack a punch like the levin sword(cept for fox's uair) but what other character's have kill confirms off of a nair, fair, or dair? two of those being mentioned are guaranteed btw. Also this may be a bit off topic but I also think may have of the best pair of tilts as well. up tilt just racks up so much damage and can setup a 50/50 to up air at high %. and pivot f tilt though.

I think it's between and . If Ness's Dair were much better, he would be the aerial king. As for Fox, they all autocancel except for Fair and they all either do obscene damage and KB for how fast they are, or combo into other good moves. Uair is almost broken.

Bit of a nitpick here but last time I checked Nair and Dair can't autocancel on short hop. Only Bair and Up air can.

 

[HeavyLobster]

When it come's to aerials I really think has the best set IMO. Sure their not the strongest and don't pack a punch like the levin sword(cept for fox's uair) but what other character's have kill confirms off of a nair, fair, or dair? two of those being mentioned are guaranteed btw. Also this may be a bit off topic but I also think may have of the best pair of tilts as well. up tilt just racks up so much damage and can setup a 50/50 to up air at high %. and pivot f tilt though.



Bit of a nitpick here but last time I checked Nair and Dair can't autocancel on short hop. Only Bair and Up air can.

Main issue with Fox's aerials is that they're not very useful for edgeguarding and this poses a problem for Fox. None of the other contenders being discussed have this problem at all. Really good onstage though.