Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[G. Stache]

As far as I know Ganondorfs Fair has really good Risk/Reward ration. But I do get your point tho. But I guess we should jump back to the topic.

Hmmm... We really havent talked about Little Mac other than "Omg he lacks air game and that is why he is bottom tier!". He is the few characters that I think is a bit underrated. Bad recovery =/= Bottom tier.

Do people actually think little Mac is trash? Sure, his air game is absolute trash, but his ground game is the best in the game. Dedicated players can easily make him work. Definitely not bottom tier as he's much more dangerous than the likes of Zelda or Samus

 

[Wintropy]

My big reservation with Ganondorf is that he's a typical fatty: he can dish out damage for days, but if you want to stall him out, what options does he have? The ability to close the gap is a big deal in a game dominated by quicksters in the vein of the ninja and bounty hunter.

That said, I think 'Dorf is better than people make him out to be when he performs to the optimal degree. The same can be said of everybody else without the meaning being changed, I concede that, but I think 'Dorf is an outlier in that respect. His reward is so good that it, in theory, mitigates his otherwise important weaknesses.

I'd compare it to the Axe weapon in Disgaea. For those unfamiliar with the weapon system, Axe is a type of weapon that's based on the ATK stat: the higher your ATK, the more you can smash your enemies into bloody bits. The catch? It's the slowest weapon you can get and the majority of its skills only hit a single enemy. Your SPD stat goes down every time you level up, so the more damage you can do, the harder it gets to hit. It's a weapon with great risk and insane reward, which can put people off, since you need to commit to it from the beginning to get good use out of.

'Dorf's raw power is unparalleled and a good 'Dorf can make your job hell if you can't trade with him. The thing is, the higher he goes, the more prevalent the quicksters become - then it becomes even more difficult to make good on his reward, so it kinda contradicts the point of him having that reward in the first place. In Disgaea you can just grind your stats so you become undefeatable and it doesn't matter if you don't hit the first ten times, you still won't die; but if your opponent is faster than you and has comparable stats, they can do more damage to you incrementally, thereby killing you before you kill them. Reward isn't much good if there's no way to connect with it. That's my big concern with Ganondorf, and why I think he will struggle in the meta.

 

[adom4]

My big reservation with Ganondorf is that he's a typical fatty: he can dish out damage for days, but if you want to stall him out, what options does he have? The ability to close the gap is a big deal in a game dominated by quicksters in the vein of the ninja and bounty hunter.

That said, I think 'Dorf is better than people make him out to be when he performs to the optimal degree. The same can be said of everybody else without the meaning being changed, I concede that, but I think 'Dorf is an outlier in that respect. His reward is so good that it, in theory, mitigates his otherwise important weaknesses.

I'd compare it to the Axe weapon in Disgaea. For those unfamiliar with the weapon system, Axe is a type of weapon that's based on the ATK stat: the higher your ATK, the more you can smash your enemies into bloody bits. The catch? It's the slowest weapon you can get and the majority of its skills only hit a single enemy. Your SPD stat goes down every time you level up, so the more damage you can do, the harder it gets to hit. It's a weapon with great risk and insane reward, which can put people off, since you need to commit to it from the beginning to get good use out of.

'Dorf's raw power is unparalleled and a good 'Dorf can make your job hell if you can't trade with him. The thing is, the higher he goes, the more prevalent the quicksters become - then it becomes even more difficult to make good on his reward, so it kinda contradicts the point of him having that reward in the first place. In Disgaea you can just grind your stats so you become undefeatable and it doesn't matter if you don't hit the first ten times, you still won't die; but if your opponent is faster than you and has comparable stats, they can do more damage to you incrementally, thereby killing you before you kill them. Reward isn't much good if there's no way to connect with it. That's my big concern with Ganondorf, and why I think he will struggle in the meta.

Honestly camping is a lot easier to deal with Dorf in this game because of how easy it is to power shield & projectiles being weaker in general.
He loses to heavy pressure more than camping, Toon link for example isn't that hard for Ganon but characters like Pacman, Pikachu & Greninja are a lot harder because they can pressure Ganondorf up close & and from afar, Ganon thrives on his midrange game, up close he's pretty awful.

 

[Wintropy]

Honestly camping is a lot easier to deal with Dorf in this game because of how easy it is to power shield & projectiles being weaker in general.
He loses to heavy pressure more than camping, Toon link for example isn't that hard for Ganon but characters like Pacman, Pikachu & Greninja are a lot harder because they can pressure Ganondorf up close & and from afar, Ganon thrives on his midrange game, up close he's pretty awful.

Yeah, that's kinda what worries me. I think 'Dorf is a fine character and I don't think he's bottom-of-the-heap refuse, but I do think he will reach a plateau in the current state of the meta.

I'm very happy to be corrected on that, but discounting potential buffs (I don't want to get into inane theorycraft, I don't think hypothetical abstractions need to factor into coherent metagame discussion), I don't think I can see him realistically being anywhere beyond the middle of the road: his reward just becomes secondary to how risky it is to go for it. Which makes matchups in the vein of whom you mentioned - Pikachu, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik - very difficult for 'Dorf.

 

[adom4]

Yeah, that's kinda what worries me. I think 'Dorf is a fine character and I don't think he's bottom-of-the-heap refuse, but I do think he will reach a plateau in the current state of the meta.

I'm very happy to be corrected on that, but discounting potential buffs (I don't want to get into inane theorycraft, I don't think hypothetical abstractions need to factor into coherent metagame discussion), I don't think I can see him realistically being anywhere beyond the middle of the road: his reward just becomes secondary to how risky it is to go for it. Which makes matchups in the vein of whom you mentioned - Pikachu, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik - very difficult for 'Dorf.

His MU with Sheik alone will prevent him from getting there, the biggest buff he can get is a Sheik nerf (enough so the MU becomes not completely horrible, ZSS, Greninja & Pikachu are at least somewhat managable to an extent).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

As far as I know Ganondorfs Fair has really good Risk/Reward ration. But I do get your point tho. But I guess we should jump back to the topic.

Hmmm... We really havent talked about Little Mac other than "Omg he lacks air game and that is why he is bottom tier!". He is the few characters that I think is a bit underrated. Bad recovery =/= Bottom tier.

Unfortunately, bad recovery means less margin for error. And considering that his matchup spread is kind of terrible (looking at you, Pac Man, MK, and Shiek), he isn't exactly a safe pick for game 1. Life is hard when you lose matches at the character select screen.

 

[Antonykun]

His MU with Sheik alone will prevent him from getting there, the biggest buff he can get is a Sheik nerf (enough so the MU becomes not completely horrible, ZSS, Greninja & Pikachu are at least somewhat managable to an extent).

Call me a cynic but i doubt Gannondorf's only "so bad that he can't be goodr" MU is Sheik. I know Villager and Megaman are also torture sequences for the king of evil and one of their worst matchups is Sheik as well (ok I'm not TOO sure about Megaman but definitely so about Villager).

As an aside, if only sheik gets nerfed ZSS/Luma/Some other top tier will be the one who is so dominant. People are too busy thinking about Shiek to really notice the dumb stuff other characters can do and when that character becomes dominant, all we'll ever think about is how to nerf that character. This was eacactly what hapened to Sheik in the transition form 1.0.4 . Some people acknowledged how dumb she was but no one really cared because Diddy Kong existed. When 1.0.6 rolled about and Sheik only got a back air nerf she showed off how perfect she can really be.

Instead of talking about Sheik getting nerfed or how the metagame will be once she's nerfed, focus on what the other top tiers can do, because once Sheik gets inevitably nerfed to the point where only people who genuinely like her would want to play her (as opposed to those who just want to win), Those characters will be the ones invalidating your main.

 

[adom4]

Unfortunately, bad recovery means less margin for error. And considering that his matchup spread is kind of terrible (looking at you, Pac Man, MK, and Shiek), he isn't exactly a safe pick for game 1. Life is hard when you lose matches at the character select screen.

Pacman isn't THAT bad, he does beat Ganon but he has trouble closing stocks against him & Ganon can play around with the hydrant because of his power, MK i don't have much EXP with so i don't know.

Call me a cynic but i doubt Gannondorf's only "so bad that he can't be goodr" MU is Sheik. I know Villager and Megaman are also torture sequences for the king of evil and one of their worst matchups is Sheik as well (ok I'm not TOO sure about Megaman but definitely so about Villager).

As an aside, if only sheik gets nerfed ZSS/Luma/Some other top tier will be the one who is so dominant. People are too busy thinking about Shiek to really notice the dumb stuff other characters can do and when that character becomes dominant, all we'll ever think about is how to nerf that character. This was eacactly what hapened to Sheik in the transition form 1.0.4 . Some people acknowledged how dumb she was but no one really cared because Diddy Kong existed. When 1.0.6 rolled about and Sheik only got a back air nerf she showed off how perfect she can really be.

Instead of talking about Sheik getting nerfed or how the metagame will be once she's nerfed, focus on what the other top tiers can do, because once Sheik gets inevitably nerfed to the point where only people who genuinely like her would want to play her (as opposed to those who just want to win), Those characters will be the ones invalidating your main.

I feel that even villager & MM are at least somewhat managable as bad they are for Dorf, Sheik & Pikachu are his worst MUs by far & they aren't really that managable (ZSS & Rosa aren't as bad).

 

[Nabbitnator]

Just caught up...if people want zss' up b to be nerfed then wait until ryu develops even more. Some characters die to his up b at like 70 on the ground and it can still be used like a reversal and kill too. People should learn how zss works before wanting her nerfed.

 

[bc1910]

Honestly camping is a lot easier to deal with Dorf in this game because of how easy it is to power shield & projectiles being weaker in general.
He loses to heavy pressure more than camping, Toon link for example isn't that hard for Ganon but characters like Pacman, Pikachu & Greninja are a lot harder because they can pressure Ganondorf up close & and from afar, Ganon thrives on his midrange game, up close he's pretty awful.

His MU with Sheik alone will prevent him from getting there, the biggest buff he can get is a Sheik nerf (enough so the MU becomes not completely horrible, ZSS, Greninja & Pikachu are at least somewhat managable to an extent).

Yeah, FWIW I put Greninja/Ganon as just barely in Greninja's favour after the nerfs, but after the recent shuriken buff I think it's been pushed to a solid +2 for Greninja. Possibly worse if we can get our edgeguarding together. I agree it's not unwinnable at all though and nobody really slaughters Ganon like Sheik does.

Revenge for his antics in Ocarina, I guess.

His aerials are pretty amazing though. Imagine if Sheik had his Bair and Dair. Or even his Uair.

 

[Browny]

Shoryuken aint got nothing on boost kick.

A little more KO power on the ground is a bad trade off for not being able to combo into it in the air and KO from as low as 25% on the first hit of the combo.

 

[adom4]

Yeah, FWIW I put Greninja/Ganon as just barely in Greninja's favour after the nerfs, but after the recent shuriken buff I think it's been pushed to a solid +2 for Greninja. Possibly worse if we can get our edgeguarding together. I agree it's not unwinnable at all though and nobody really slaughters Ganon like Sheik does.

Revenge for his antics in Ocarina, I guess.

His aerials are pretty amazing though. Imagine if Sheik had his Bair and Dair. Or even his Uair.

If Ganondorf's aerials were on any other character they would be completely broken, try to imagine Falcon with Ganondorf's U-air

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik is the only matchup Ganon can't win? Sorry but I gotta call BS on that. I'm not one of them people that just dumps Ganon into bottom tier or something but I can't for the life of me see how Ganon gets even close to handle Villager or ZSS without massive screw-ups on their side.

Do people actually think little Mac is trash? Sure, his air game is absolute trash, but his ground game is the best in the game.

His ground game is not the best in the game.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's biggest problem is choke being techable. Against most characters it's not an issue, but on anyone that he doesn't have guaranteed followups on, especially characters with good tech rolls, it's a nightmare. Gannon's best tool against shields becomes a total guessing game that mostly just leads to 12% then back to neutral. And Sheik is one of those characters. I do understand the rationale behind not giving Ganon an inescapable kill setup off a grab, but if that was the goal I'd much rather have an untechable choke with no guaranteed followups.

Now that I'm done talking about how bad Ganon is, Ganon's F-air.

A disjointed aerial with good range that's safe on shield when spaced; it's basically Sheik's F-air, except it does 18% and kills like a smash attack.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

it's basically Sheik's F-air, except it does 18% and kills like a smash attack.

... no dude. Just no.

 

[DunnoBro]

Just caught up...if people want zss' up b to be nerfed then wait until ryu develops even more. Some characters die to his up b at like 70 on the ground and it can still be used like a reversal and kill too. People should learn how zss works before wanting her nerfed.

I don't know if it should be nerfed but it's much more overall potent than Shoryuken simply because of uair and actual grab set-ups creating inescapable death combos as low as 0-50%

... no dude. Just no.

Eh, it kind of is in a less-safe-but-still-safeish approach kind of way. Ganon just lacks the mobility to actually space it, or the short hop options that wouldn't make it obvious as hell what he's trying to do.

Spacing aerials are good generally because a character has several options from their spacing zone. But that fair at it's core is a pretty good move.

 

[KenMeister]

Sheik is the only matchup Ganon can't win? Sorry but I gotta call BS on that. I'm not one of them people that just dumps Ganon into bottom tier or something but I can't for the life of me see how Ganon gets even close to handle Villager or ZSS without massive screw-ups on their side.



His ground game is not the best in the game.

ZSS is actually surprisingly doable. I can see the argument for Villager, Pika, Sonic, and Rosalina, though.

Other than those 5 (of which I'm including Sheik), I feel Ganon at least has room to outplay his opponents without it being it unwinnable.

 

[Ghostbone]

His ground game is not the best in the game.

Who's superior?

Little mac has the best jab in the game by far, the best dash attack, and probably the best set of smashes and tilts (super armour on smashes, and his u/f-tilt have that weird priority where they clank with your move but still continue), he just has an abysmal grab, but it's not that big of a deal since his attacks are all safe on shield. (and his 3-frame safe on shield d-tilt will kill you at 90% since it combos into up-b)

His bad matchups are just characters who can juggle him since he has no aerials to come back down with, or someone like Sheik who literally carries him off the stage with every combo.

 

[adom4]

ZSS is actually surprisingly doable. I can see the argument for Villager, Pika, Sonic, and Rosalina, though.

Other than those 5 (of which I'm including Sheik), I feel Ganon at least has room to outplay his opponents without it being it unwinnable.

Ganon vs Rosa is a really really stupid match up.
Ganon has a lot of good things going for him against her: He murders Luma, she's tall & extremely light & there's almost no risk trying to edgeguard her.
But Luma's shenanigans are frustrating for Ganon, flame choke is almost worthless because of Luma, it clashes with ****ing everything & its knockback is insane.
But the worst part is U-air, without customs he has no way getting down safely other than go for the ledge or try to airdodge right, and going to the ledge is dangerous because of her edgeguards & Luma shenanigans (Getting past rapid jab on the ledge is suffering).

 

[PUK]

Problem with ganondorf, zelda, bowser, ddd is that there is no MU they really win. At best they have some 55-45 in their favor. It means you have to severely outplay your opponent, but that's something you can do better with everyone in the upper half of the cast.
And about their moves. Took individually most of them are not so bad. But because they were supposed to be kill moves, they have been hurt. You can't space with them, you can't combo and rack damage, you can't break a disadvantage state to reset... And ganondorf is one the best heavies not because of fair which is garbage, but because his kit is falcon's one who was supposed to be neutral and combo heavy, and because of that ganondorf has some multitask moves (godly uair and not bad nair).
That's it, kill move that are only useful to kill are useless in the biggest part of a game. And even if they are good at killing (and they are usually not because what is stopping u from using them to rack damage can stop u from using them at all) smash is not a traditionnal FG. Sheik, while weak can kill someone as low as 60-70% if she gimp him, MK has death strings, and every character have smashes that can be used to kill. Basically heavy hitters are like people who only bring wine (but a lot of) at a picnic (the true word is pique-nique pls) rather than bringing food, water, wine, and everything useful at a pique-nique.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Pacman isn't THAT bad, he does beat Ganon but he has trouble closing stocks against him & Ganon can play around with the hydrant because of his power, MK i don't have much EXP with so i don't know.


I feel that even villager & MM are at least somewhat managable as bad they are for Dorf, Sheik & Pikachu are his worst MUs by far & they aren't really that managable (ZSS & Rosa aren't as bad).

I was reffering to Mac. My b

 

[Spinosaurus]

Little mac has the best jab in the game by far, the best dash attack, and probably the best set of smashes and tilts (super armour on smashes, and his u/f-tilt have that weird priority where they clank with your move but still continue), he just has an abysmal grab, but it's not that big of a deal since his attacks are all safe on shield. (and his 3-frame safe on shield d-tilt will kill you at 90% since it combos into up-b)

And what about his non existent short hop game? Ground game isn't just ground moves.

In what world is his dash attack the best and all his attacks are safe?

Who's superior?

Meta Knight, for one. His neutral anyhow.

 

[DunnoBro]

Who's superior?

Little mac has the best jab in the game by far, the best dash attack, and probably the best set of smashes and tilts (super armour on smashes, and his u/f-tilt have that weird priority where they clank with your move but still continue), he just has an abysmal grab, but it's not that big of a deal since his attacks are all safe on shield. (and his 3-frame safe on shield d-tilt will kill you at 90% since it combos into up-b)

His bad matchups are just characters who can juggle him since he has no aerials to come back down with, or someone like Sheik who literally carries him off the stage with every combo.

Yea mac's ground GAME is irrefutably the best in the game as it was designed to be. This really shouldn't be contested.

His ground NEUTRAL might not be the best because of stuff like needles, luma jab, and the like but no other character has the sheer amount of safe, potent options while grounded that mac does.

Although mac's DA is nowhere near the best. DAs should be pokes and pokes should be safe, his DA is anything but.

MK and Fox with their pseudo-safe on shield DAs that pop opponents up for follow-ups are clearly better.

And what about his non existent short hop game? Ground game isn't just ground moves.

A short hop game is generally used to space aerials or maintain options while exerting pressure vs the opponent.

Mac does that while grounded with high ground speed, tilts, haymaker, and smashes.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yea mac's ground GAME is irrefutably the best in the game as it was designed to be. This really shouldn't be contested.

His ground NEUTRAL might not be the best because of stuff like needles, luma jab, and the like but no other character has the sheer amount of safe, potent options while grounded that mac does.

What?

The neutral game is a substantial part of the effectiveness of the ground game.

You can't say he has the best ground game of the cast and then say right after his ground neutral isn't the best. You are completely contradicting yourself.

 

[DunnoBro]

What?

The neutral game is a HUGE part of the effectiveness of the ground game.

You can't say he has the best ground game of the cast and then say right after his ground neutral isn't the best. You are completely contradicting yourself.

I said might not be. Only thing that contests it straight up is sheik needles + fair, but those have a tipping point for effectiveness and KO Punch + Armor Smashes/Safe tilt set-ups killing absurdly early bring a similar amount of neutral polarization.

And yea, neutral IS a huge part. But his neutral is still great, just some characters are more consistent due to less risk/reward. We're talking overall here, not each little aspect. And overall he has the most potent options while grounded by far.

If mac's return to neutral was anywhere near as guaranteed as sheik's so he could actually play it more, he'd be totally busted. The only reason that character is fair is because he's so hard and scary to beat in neutral but you only need to do it a few times before he's reliably dead. But that's an issue with his disadvantage, not his neutral.

Sheik you need to beat a million times but losing 2-3 times doesn't usually mean death.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Aight I already know since social media age and all that people go on leddit, if they haven't seen it then...

His grab can get 25% of the cast btw. King of the Jungle, Donkey Marth. Melee grab shenanigans.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Are we talking about Ganon? I maintain that Captain Falcon's moveset without a good dash speed is nearly hopeless. They took away speed and added power, but speed is worth much more than power in Smash. Hilariously more, in fact.

Ganon's problem is that he doesn't hit hard enough. I know that sounds absurd, but hear me out. Ganon hits like a truck filled with other trucks, but he has almost nothing in the way of guaranteed followups. All his moves are incredibly powerful, but they exist in isolation. This is in contrast to speedy characters, who can typically chain moves together to great effect. Most good characters in Smash's history have been capable of sick-nasty disgusting combos, and Ganon just isn't built for that. The areas in which he's strong are not the areas that are essential for high-level competitive Smash.

I have an analogy here: I was a rower for many years, and whenever it came up in conversation, someone would end up saying, "Hey, I'd probably be a decent rower. I've got some strong arms." Well, actually, rowing is almost entirely reliant on leg strength. People just had the wrong idea about what was optimal for the sport. Similarly, a Smash character whose every move knocks you halfway across the stage isn't really what you want. You need to have the ability to link moves together. Ganon can't do that in any way that's reliable. In order to make that style of character viable, the reward for even a single hit would have to be insane, since they're proportionally so hard to land (How much harder is it to land Ganon's fair than Sheik's? In light of that comparison, do you think the reward for landing Ganon's fair is large enough?). The obvious issue here, from a game design perspective, is that he would become the most disgusting noob slayer in the history of videogames, banned in household Smash across the globe. It ain't happening, friends.

Also, his recovery is turrible. One of my beefs with Little Mac is that I just don't think an awful recovery is good game design. It's too vital a part of Smash's gameplay.

Done waffling. /WarandPeace

 

[irokex13]

ZSS is actually surprisingly doable. I can see the argument for Villager, Pika, Sonic, and Rosalina, though.

Other than those 5 (of which I'm including Sheik), I feel Ganon at least has room to outplay his opponents without it being it unwinnable.

Doesn't stomp Ganon too? From my experiences, Robin can keep up with Ganon in damage, but zones him super hard and nair offstage is pretty much an insta kill.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

I haven't played enough against Robin to know for sure.

I don't want to be too gloomy about Ganon. I don't mean he's totally The Worst, but I do think that it would be incredibly hard to make him both top tier and balanced in his current incarnation, and I don't see the dev team ever wanting to take the risk of him being genuinely too good. Mid-tier is probably where we'll be living.

 

[adom4]

Doesn't stomp Ganon too? From my experiences, Robin can keep up with Ganon in damage, but zones him super hard and nair offstage is pretty much an insta kill.

Robin's hard but doable, Robin's really easy to edgeguard & he should almost never get back on stage against Ganon.

 

[Smog Frog]

now im thinking...who has the best set of aerials overall, disregarding mobility?(lets assume that these aerials are on )
i think are all candidates...am i too generous?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

If anything, I think Ganondorf is a fantastic counterpick character. Sometimes you feel like you lose to the character and not the player. Sometimes you just need something that punishes REALLY hard for all those reads you make. Ganondorf works well for that role.

 

[adom4]

Are we talking about Ganon? I maintain that Captain Falcon's moveset without a good dash speed is nearly hopeless. They took away speed and added power, but speed is worth much more than power in Smash. Hilariously more, in fact.

Ganon's problem is that he doesn't hit hard enough. I know that sounds absurd, but hear me out. Ganon hits like a truck filled with other trucks, but he has almost nothing in the way of guaranteed followups. All his moves are incredibly powerful, but they exist in isolation. This is in contrast to speedy characters, who can typically chain moves together to great effect. Most good characters in Smash's history have been capable of sick-nasty disgusting combos, and Ganon just isn't built for that. The areas in which he's strong are not the areas that are essential for high-level competitive Smash.

I have an analogy here: I was a rower for many years, and whenever it came up in conversation, someone would end up saying, "Hey, I'd probably be a decent rower. I've got some strong arms." Well, actually, rowing is almost entirely reliant on leg strength. People just had the wrong idea about what was optimal for the sport. Similarly, a Smash character whose every move knocks you halfway across the stage isn't really what you want. You need to have the ability to link moves together. Ganon can't do that in any way that's reliable. In order to make that style of character viable, the reward for even a single hit would have to be insane, since they're proportionally so hard to land (How much harder is it to land Ganon's fair than Sheik's? In light of that comparison, do you think the reward for landing Ganon's fair is large enough?). The obvious issue here, from a game design perspective, is that he would become the most disgusting noob slayer in the history of videogames, banned in household Smash across the globe. It ain't happening, friends.

Also, his recovery is turrible. One of my beefs with Little Mac is that I just don't think an awful recovery is good game design. It's too vital a part of Smash's gameplay.

Done waffling. /WarandPeace

Ganon hits hard enough already, especially when combined with rage.
And while Ganon doesn't have sick combos like Falcon he has strings which do a crapload of damage, he has almost no moves that do below 10%.

 

[Pazzo.]

Robin is my candidate for underrated character of 1.1.0.

His grab range is trash, but kill confirms off a grab is pretty much a trump card in this meta.
His rapid jab (Elwind) kills, all his Levin attacks kill, and he can zone you out on most stages with Thunder and Arcfire.
He even has a command grab that heals. People are scared to try the character because he's slow, but Robin becomes very rewarding once a player masters his fundamentals.

 

[TriTails]

Mac's ground game is definitely the best. Absolutely. MK or Luigi or Sheik ain't got **** on him.

Frame 1 jab that stuffs punishes very well (You're a fattie? You're taking about 20% outta this move alone). DA being very reliable. Stupid armored smashes that somehow has little end lag while F-smash dealing like 19%. Jolt Haymaker being '**** this I'm outta here' move, a GREAT one. Insane F-tilt.

He doesn't care about your CQC. He outboxes everyone in the game on the ground while dealing absurd damage on his own. F-tilt and smashes that stuff everything and FRAME 1 JAB should tell you how great this character is on the ground.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To add to the discussion about Mario, yeah, Ally's pretty much on point. Mario is good at most everything except easily taking stocks (honestly if his DSmash was better this wouldn't be a problem). I mean he's not AWFUL at it but securing a kill with Mario does take more work than most of the other top tiers, he just has everything else at his disposal.

Funny enough Doctor Mario has these other problems but getting a kill with Dr. Mario is also statistically easier on a move for move basis (He's still worse than Mario by a noticable amount, but it's worth considering that he not only edgeguards, but also has more kill options!) To name a few: Bair, Up+B, Down-B edgeguards, USmash kills even earlier and has a ridiculous amount more coverage than Mario's (i.e. with good positioning it's even easier to hit someone with, really.). The biggest one IMO is Bair, which not only has an additional 1 frame of sweetspot/clean hit duration vs. Mario's, but also kills really good on-stage at high %s. Down-B is an absurd edgeguard, if you go out a little bit with it it can kill Bowser at like 70% without rage, Down Air I didn't mention, mostly good for edgeguarding (not a super great kill but long hitboxes) and Up+B OoS is a great way to kill basically anyone who doesn't respect shield (its sweetspot is also active for a good deal of frames, 3-5 to be specific, and it's also HUGE)

That being said I think the difficulty of closing stocks with Mario is like, his only real big flaw. The other ones are workable and possible to play around. I'd hate to see Ally drop him, he makes the character work. Mario's still pretty relevant IMO, debatable for whether or not he's top tier, but he'll always get results on a national and local level (whether it be Top 8 or just drifting outside of Top 8).

Basically Dr. Mario is Mario who works harder for damage but has more kill options (so if you have a lead you're generally well off) whereas Mario has no issue with building damage at all but his kill options are very limited. Obviously Mario's traits line up better in the meta, but I feel like people seriously overlook Dr. Mario. One day....

 

[Jamurai]

now im thinking...who has the best set of aerials overall, disregarding mobility?(lets assume that these aerials are on )
i think are all candidates...am i too generous?

I think it's between and . If Ness's Dair were much better, he would be the aerial king. As for Fox, they all autocancel except for Fair and they all either do obscene damage and KB for how fast they are, or combo into other good moves. Uair is almost broken.

 

[PUK]

Ganon hits hard enough already, especially when combined with rage.
And while Ganon doesn't have sick combos like Falcon he has strings which do a crapload of damage, he has almost no moves that do below 10%.

Does he? When i play as ganondorf and i manage to hit someone with with a fair/bair/ftilt i send him too far away to put more pressure, but not far enough to kill them. Ftlit doesn't usually kill below 80%, fair a little sooner, bair around the same, depending of where you are. Dtilt kill later, uair and nair even later, dair hard to hit with onstage.
How do you rack enough damage as ganondorf (against someone who don't make huuuuge mistakes) to be able to kill before dying?
Look what ike and DK have. Grab combo, some moves can link to others AND high damage per hit. Look how they perform in the competitive scene comared to the like of Samus/ganondorf/bowser/DDD. If ganondorf Side B has less lag, he could use it to rack damage and as a late kill set up. Even in a tech chase situation he would have more pressure to put. If Nair could connect instead of now, if some of his moves could open follow up he could claim a mid-high tier viability, something around Ike/DK

 

[adom4]

Does he? When i play as ganondorf and i manage to hit someone with with a fair/bair/ftilt i send him too far away to put more pressure, but not far enough to kill them. Ftlit doesn't usually kill below 80%, fair a little sooner, bair around the same, depending of where you are. Dtilt kill later, uair and nair even later, dair hard to hit with onstage.
How do you rack enough damage as ganondorf (against someone who don't make huuuuge mistakes) to be able to kill before dying?
Look what ike and DK have. Grab combo, some moves can link to others AND high damage per hit. Look how they perform in the competitive scene comared to the like of Samus/ganondorf/bowser/DDD. If ganondorf Side B has less lag, he could use it to rack damage and as a late kill set up. Even in a tech chase situation he would have more pressure to put. If Nair could connect instead of now, if some of his moves could open follow up he could claim a mid-high tier viability, something around Ike/DK

F-tilt kills near the ledge at around 80-90%, sometimes even earlier & B-air hits like a truck, i think it's the 3rd strongest in the game after Zelda's & Bowser's.
Do you really want a Nair that does 22% to connect reliably? it's not like Falcon's.
D-throw combos into DA & U-air until Mid % on most of the cast (and F-air at around 70-80% but that requires shoddy DI).
Even in single hits & strings he racks up damage well because of his absurd damage per hit, with 2-3 hits he does around 40% & he can usually kill below 100%.

Even with his awful recovery he can be surprisingly hard to kill at times, don't forget that he's very heavy & falls pretty fast.
Ganon always has a frame advantage even after a choke is teched (the only characters he can't hit after a tech are ones with absurd tech rolls like Zelda).
Again i never said he was a mid-high tier but you're making him look like it's Brawl all over again.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

now im thinking...who has the best set of aerials overall, disregarding mobility?(lets assume that these aerials are on )
i think are all candidates...am i too generous?

Ganon. I just **** myself at the thought of Yoshi with Ganon's aerials.