Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Pazzo.]

Ryu is a solid contender.

He's not incredibly fast on the ground or in the air, but that doesn't matter when you can KO most characters with a True Shoryuken at 90% or earlier.

 

[LancerStaff]

Removing the lock will turn Ryu vs Ganon from 8-2 to 7-3.

The match is a lost cause.

Dunno man, I could see Ryu getting nerfed to heck before the patches stop. Having a character like him even considered to be good in Smash is unheard of.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I noticed their was a discussion about easy character's in this thread.

I think alot of people tend to mistake an easy character with a broken/op character these day's.

Now in fighting game's you have the following

You have the beginner character. A character who's their to help the player learn how to play the game and understand the basic fundamentals. A good example of this would be and in street fighter(not ryu in smash)


Next you have the character who's easy to pick up but hard to master once you get to the technical aspect. A good example of this is . melee fox was a character who's easy when you get to the basic things but once you went to the technical side of things like learning how to waveshine consistently and making sure you can short hop consistently enough so you can do all of the techincal stufff like SHFFL'ing, Nair planing, and SHDL camping . That's when fox's difficulties begin to show its true colors. There's a reason why people say fox is one of the hardest character's to master in melee.


And then you have that one character who're just easy because of how amazing his/her tool's are or how busted his/her moves are. As long as your able to learn the basic fundamentals you can pick up this character, be able to master them pretty quick, and maybe even place high in a couple touneys so long as you have a good mindset. A good example of this is , Johnny Cage from Mortal Kombat 9, , and Chun li from Third strike.

Now who is a character in Sm4sh that fit's the broken and easy criteria?

We know is universally agreed upon to be the best character in the game. However many people have said that she actually requires a bit of technical skill in order to be used at a high level so she doesn't really fit that criteria.

used to fit that criteria before the Mewtwo patch where all he needed to do to finish you off was a down throw to up air. Even if it was DI'ed he could mix it up and do a up throw to up air or do down throw to fair which was almost just as effective.

So who in smash 4 fit's that criteria?

That's a question that I'll leave for you guys.

He's got an Utilt too: https://youtu.be/dY7Mf2_AOYI. A user at the Falco boards checked and said this works up until Super Jump Punch. If so, then Little Mac, Roy, Mega Man, and Falco are about to get 50/50'd from this setup. Presumably Fox, Greninja, and Triple D too.

That UP b mixup was just nasty. It's a good thing it's just a mixup and not an actual true death combo.

Is it as bad as it is on Fox?
i did get locked by it but i did manage to get out with some struggle, and ryu has to work to get that close to ganon because of his range.
I can see the MU getting worse over time though.

Since fox is a fast faller he can shield it at low %. Fox also has a smaller hurtbox compared to ganon who's big af s theirs that too.

 

[juddy96]

Too much talk about buffs and nerfs, not enough talk about Komorikiri's style of Sonic play that got him to 2nd place

 

[Nu~]

I missed it :[

What was his play style like?

 

[T4ylor]

Komorikiri has made me question the common belief that ZSS and Rosalina beat Sonic.

 

[juddy96]

I missed it :[

What was his play style like?

In twitch chat terms...

Some matchups were ResidentSleeper
Others were PogChamp

But the guy really is Mr. Optimal, even 6WX and Seagull in the chat were so impressed with him

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Komorikiri basically plays Sonic like he's an actual character with more than just 3 or 4 different moves. That alone sets him apart from all the other Sonic players except like 6wx.

 

[Megamang]

Well, that ties in logically with the high skill density. You have good reps from every matchup, so you learn to use it. Unlike in my region, where theres a feeling of "meh, if he plays X bad character he is probably free".

 

[Trifroze]

The match is basically Ganon vs Ganon ver T-3000. Just as strong, faster, better combos, more combos, ACTUAL kill confirms, better punish game, better neutral, better advantage, better disadvantage, etc.

Does Ganon still beat Ganon T-3000 in the end?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Komorikiri has made me question the common belief that ZSS and Rosalina beat Sonic.

I've been saying for a long time that a defensive-style Sonic is even at worst vs Rosalina.

This is my opinion of 's match up chart vs other top/high tiers:

Truly Countered By: None
Very Unfavorable:
Unfavorable:
Even:
Favorable:
Very Favorable:
Truly Counters:
???? (Needs more testing):

For what it's worth, I think Rosa probably has at least a slightly favorable match up with every other character in the game, although there are certainly many other characters with manageable match ups and therefore can take down Rosa when played well.

The bottom line is that Rosa is a difficult character to solo main and win major tournaments with because she has clearly bad match ups... But at the same time, you can get good results solo maining her. And she's an extremely good character to have in your arsenal if you have someone else to cover your unfavorable match ups. & could be a potentially devastating combo, but no one has it at the moment (sorry but Dabuz's Pikachu isn't so hot).

*I'm happy to elaborate on how I feel about any particular match up, if someone asks.

 

[Djent]

Komorikiri is my favorite player to watch right now. I was already doubting the "-2 vs. ZSS" claims after I saw him vs. Choco at KSB, and now I am all but convinced it is false. Rosa I am less certain about since that MU never gets played on an even footing at the highest level (Dabuz > 6WX and Komorikiri > Kirihara). If it's actually even it'd be one of Rosa's only even MUs in the game besides herself, but Sonic has a strong enough toolkit that it's actually possible.

Sonic is not #2 as Japan said before 9B changed their minds, but he is still a highly relevant threat despite being "toned down." Wherever you see Diddy on the tier list is probably where Sonic lives also.

 

[Planty]

I've been saying for a long time that a defensive-style Sonic is even at worst vs Rosalina.

This is my opinion of 's match up chart vs other top/high tiers:

Truly Countered By: None
Very Unfavorable:
Unfavorable:
Even:
Favorable:
Very Favorable:
Truly Counters:
???? (Needs more testing):

For what it's worth, I think Rosa probably has at least a slightly favorable match up with every other character in the game, although there are certainly many other characters with manageable match ups and therefore can take down Rosa when played well.

The bottom line is that Rosa is a difficult character to solo main and win major tournaments with because she has clearly bad match ups... But at the same time, you can get good results solo maining her. And she's an extremely good character to have in your arsenal if you have someone else to cover your unfavorable match ups. & could be a potentially devastating combo, but no one has it at the moment (sorry but Dabuz's Pikachu isn't so hot).

*I'm happy to elaborate on how I feel about any particular match up, if someone asks.

Well first, DABUZ HAS A PIKACHU???

How do you feel about Dabuz saying Ness vs Rosalina is only 60:40? And also you have Shaky making top 8 at CEO using ONLY Ness as far as I know (Feel free to correct me on that). That means that he went through quite a few Rosalinas during the tournament and even took a game off Dabuz. I doubt he could do that if the matchup is impossible.

On the topic of MK, we die at 5% from a dash attack. Literally. MK also kills Luma super easily. Lots of MK mains have this as -2 for Rosalina. Why is it only on the unfavorable part and not very unfavorable?

I feel like Luigi should only be on favorable and not on very favorable. Sure we dominate neutral, but Luigi's punish game is way too strong to ever count him out completely. I wouldn't be too surprised if it really is very favorable though.

 

[DanGR]

Iron Kraken
I'm skeptical that rosalina loses so hard to pikachu. She seems to have a couple reliable answers to all of pikachu's shenanigans in neutral outside of perfect use of quick attack. Could you elaborate a bit? I have decent experience in the matchup, but none against any masterful pikachu players.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Well first, DABUZ HAS A PIKACHU???

How do you feel about Dabuz saying Ness vs Rosalina is only 60:40? And also you have Shaky making top 8 at CEO using ONLY Ness as far as I know (Feel free to correct me on that). That means that he went through quite a few Rosalinas during the tournament and even took a game off Dabuz. I doubt he could do that if the matchup is impossible.

On the topic of MK, we die at 5% from a dash attack. Literally. MK also kills Luma super easily. Lots of MK mains have this as -2 for Rosalina. Why is it only on the unfavorable part and not very unfavorable?

I feel like Luigi should only be on favorable and not on very favorable. Sure we dominate neutral, but Luigi's punish game is way too strong to ever count him out completely. I wouldn't be too surprised if it really is very favorable though.

Well, we have to define terms. Saying that Rosalina is a true counter pick to Ness doesn't mean that the match up is impossible for Ness, it just means that the match up is extremely disadvantageous, and that it's possible for a relatively inferior Rosalina player to beat a relatively superior Ness player. Ness has to play a mistake-free game, especially when near the ledge or off-stage, and that's often asking for a lot. Even in neutral, Rosalina wins the match up very solidly. And when Ness is in the air, he has a huge amount of difficulty landing... Ness just has almost nothing going for him in the match up.

The only reason I didn't say "very unfavorable" for Meta Knight is that Rosalina can deal with MK much better with Luma detached. I used to get bodied by MK's but have had much better success since I went with detached Luma. Dabuz and Falln have also said they have much more success against MK using this strategy. I think the MK match up is still borderline very unfavorable, but I think if the Rosa can master the art of the detached Luma, it's much more manageable.

As for Luigi... it's true that he can body Rosa IF he gets in on her. But that's true of any character vs Luigi. And when Rosalina is played right, Luigi shouldn't be able to get in on her. If you play her with the mindset of anti-grab, it's very hard for Luigi to land grabs, and if he can't land grabs, there's very little he can do in the match up.

 

[Megamang]

Iron Kraken What is the rule for Luma grab punishes? If you throw Rosa immediately you can't get the throw with fast throws, but otherwise I always get hit for trying to pummel (Pika pummel excluded). Should I just not pummel, or is a throw by throw/MU/specific location type thing?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Iron Kraken
I'm skeptical that rosalina loses so hard to pikachu. She seems to have a couple reliable answers to all of pikachu's shenanigans in neutral outside of perfect use of quick attack. Could you elaborate a bit? I have decent experience in the matchup, but none against any masterful pikachu players.

One reason I think Rosa loses pretty hard to Pikachu is that Pikachu kills Luma incredibly easily. Given the speed / safety of many Pikachu's attacks, many of them do surprising knockback to Luma. Pikachu's SH Fair is very difficult for Rosa to deal with because of her height, and even if she manages to punish Pikachu for it, she can't get a grab (big damage) but only something like a D-tilt or a D-Smash, and all that does is a little bit of damage and maybe slightly favorable positioning. Rosa is so slow and big compared to Pikachu that in general, Pikachu can just throw out stuff and it tends to hit, whereas Rosa can throw out stuff and it tends to miss. Pikachu also kills Rosa very easily, both on stage with strong Smash attacks, and off-stage because Pikachu has no problem handling Rosa's recovery (if you're not good at teching against a great Pikachu player, you're screwed). Pikachu also gets back to the stage very easily, both when off the stage and above Rosa, which is a common theme in characters with favorable match ups against Rosa (Rosa will destroy characters who can't easily reset the situation to neutral when they are above her and off-stage, if that's not the case then she loses much of her advantage).

Iron Kraken What is the rule for Luma grab punishes? If you throw Rosa immediately you can't get the throw with fast throws, but otherwise I always get hit for trying to pummel (Pika pummel excluded). Should I just not pummel, or is a throw by throw/MU/specific location type thing?

Luma can attack while Rosalina is being grabbed (with tilts and jab only), so in general you don't want to pummel, unless the pummel also puts Luma into hitstun, rendering it unable to attack.

For example, Mario definitely does NOT want to pummel Rosa when Luma is near by, but Pikachu can pummel Rosa without fear because his pummel puts Luma into hitstun.

 

[Spinosaurus]

The most patient Wario player I've seen so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5yncUQo87k

I feel like this is where his meta will eventually evolve to.

I thought it'd be a while until someone starts playing Wario optimally

This is what's gonna put him on the radar.

 

[Planty]

Iron Kraken What is the rule for Luma grab punishes? If you throw Rosa immediately you can't get the throw with fast throws, but otherwise I always get hit for trying to pummel (Pika pummel excluded). Should I just not pummel, or is a throw by throw/MU/specific location type thing?

Well you didn't ask me but whatever. Note that this is all assuming Luma is attached to you.

If you input an attack (like a jab), but Rosalina gets grabbed before the attack comes out, Luma will still attack breaking the grab up. If you're holding Rosalina for too long (whether you're pummeling or not) then Luma could interrupt with a jab. I'm not sure what this timeframe is, but in general, if you throw Rosalina as soon as you grab her, you shouldn't be experiencing too much difficulty getting interrupted.

If you get the throw, you can follow up with true combos. Luma can SOMETIMES interrupt non-true combos, but it's very... weird and kinda inconsistent. just go straight for a follow up or hit Luma with something and you should be good.

Well, we have to define terms. Saying that Rosalina is a true counter pick to Ness doesn't mean that the match up is impossible for Ness, it just means that the match up is extremely disadvantageous, and that it's possible for a relatively inferior Rosalina player to beat a relatively superior Ness player. Ness has to play a mistake-free game, especially when near the ledge or off-stage, and that's often asking for a lot. Even in neutral, Rosalina wins the match up very solidly. And when Ness is in the air, he has a huge amount of difficulty landing... Ness just has almost nothing going for him in the match up.

What Ness has going for him is that a B-throw with no rage, no DI, kills Rosalina at 74%. I think that's something. You could never count him out because of it. You HAVE to respect his throws. He even has setups into grab and while you're busy avoiding the grab he's going to Uair you and you die at 100%. Try to avoid his Uair and you get grabbed. Ness just kills way too easily to have near impossible matchups IMO.

When offstage you usually have to read where Ness will up-b before using down-b or else you're going to get hit by an Uair. Another thing you gotta respect. It's not a free gimp in the slightest. Not much more to say here...

In the neutral, Ness has quite a few spacing tools to work with. His PKfire most notably for it's ability to deal way too much damage off a hit and lead into everything. Fair is a really good poke and is scary too. Nair is great at GTFO and kills. Uair is just dumb. His Luma kill ability is top notch. He also dominates in a QCQ situation.

TL;DR version
Ness loses, but it's not THAT bad.

You also avoided the statement about how Dabuz thinks it's 60:40 and Shaky made top 8 at CEO going through a bunch of Rosalinas and took a game off of Dabuz to boot.

 

[Megamang]

That pikachu was pretty good at some stuff, but he kept letting people land in "lets go on pika's wild ride" u-tilt zone/roll into that zone without punishment. Was that offline?

Also, no ambition of killing marth offstage or even using enough Tjolts to actually mess with his recovery. One would hit DS early, and then he would lower himself and sweetspot the now tjoltless ledge because pika stopped firing tjolts. If you do play by sticking on the stage (i do in many MUs), then at least fire tjolts at them. They can set up easy dair kills.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well you didn't ask me but whatever. Note that this is all assuming Luma is attached to you.

If you input an attack (like a jab), but Rosalina gets grabbed before the attack comes out, Luma will still attack breaking the grab up. If you're holding Rosalina for too long (whether you're pummeling or not) then Luma could interrupt with a jab. I'm not sure what this timeframe is, but in general, if you throw Rosalina as soon as you grab her, you shouldn't be experiencing too much difficulty getting interrupted.

If you get the throw, you can follow up with true combos. Luma can SOMETIMES interrupt non-true combos, but it's very... weird and kinda inconsistent. just go straight for a follow up or hit Luma with something and you should be good.


What Ness has going for him is that a B-throw with no rage, no DI, kills Rosalina at 74%. I think that's something. You could never count him out because of it. You HAVE to respect his throws. He even has setups into grab and while you're busy avoiding the grab he's going to Uair you and you die at 100%. Try to avoid his Uair and you get grabbed. Ness just kills way too easily to have near impossible matchups IMO.

When offstage you usually have to read where Ness will up-b before using down-b or else you're going to get hit by an Uair. Another thing you gotta respect. It's not a free gimp in the slightest. Not much more to say here...

In the neutral, Ness has quite a few spacing tools to work with. His PKfire most notably for it's ability to deal way too much damage off a hit and lead into everything. Fair is a really good poke and is scary too. Nair is great at GTFO and kills. Uair is just dumb. His Luma kill ability is top notch. He also dominates in a QCQ situation.

TL;DR version
Ness loses, but it's not THAT bad.

You also avoided the statement about how Dabuz thinks it's 60:40 and Shaky made top 8 at CEO going through a bunch of Rosalinas and took a game off of Dabuz to boot.

Dabuz is the only Rosalina he faced.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Well you didn't ask me but whatever. Note that this is all assuming Luma is attached to you.

If you input an attack (like a jab), but Rosalina gets grabbed before the attack comes out, Luma will still attack breaking the grab up. If you're holding Rosalina for too long (whether you're pummeling or not) then Luma could interrupt with a jab. I'm not sure what this timeframe is, but in general, if you throw Rosalina as soon as you grab her, you shouldn't be experiencing too much difficulty getting interrupted.

If you get the throw, you can follow up with true combos. Luma can SOMETIMES interrupt non-true combos, but it's very... weird and kinda inconsistent. just go straight for a follow up or hit Luma with something and you should be good.

As long as Luma is in the right position, a quick up-air can put a quick halt to the "true combos" of many characters. This is most notable in down-throw follow ups that don't put Luma into hitstun. A quick up-air from Luma can even stop Sheik's true throw to bouncing fish combos at low %s.

What Ness has going for him is that a B-throw with no rage, no DI, kills Rosalina at 74%. I think that's something. You could never count him out because of it. You HAVE to respect his throws. He even has setups into grab and while you're busy avoiding the grab he's going to Uair you and you die at 100%. Try to avoid his Uair and you get grabbed. Ness just kills way too easily to have near impossible matchups IMO.

When offstage you usually have to read where Ness will up-b before using down-b or else you're going to get hit by an Uair. Another thing you gotta respect. It's not a free gimp in the slightest. Not much more to say here...

In the neutral, Ness has quite a few spacing tools to work with. His PKfire most notably for it's ability to deal way too much damage off a hit and lead into everything. Fair is a really good poke and is scary too. Nair is great at GTFO and kills. Uair is just dumb. His Luma kill ability is top notch. He also dominates in a QCQ situation.

TL;DR version
Ness loses, but it's not THAT bad.

You also avoided the statement about how Dabuz thinks it's 60:40 and Shaky made top 8 at CEO going through a bunch of Rosalinas and took a game off of Dabuz to boot.

When I said "Ness has nothing going for him the match up" against Rosa, I mean that there's nothing in particular about the match up that is favorable for Ness. Ness still has all the things he normally has going for him of course, like his back-throw, strong aerials, etc. I didn't say the match ups is near impossible, it's just extremely in Rosalina's favor. I don't really care if Dabuz said it's only 60:40 in Rosa's favor, I'd say it's closer to 70:30 in her favor. Yes Shaky can take a game off Dabuz, because Shaky is a great player, and I never said the match up is impossible (impossible match ups don't exist in Smash 4).

 

[Planty]

When I said "Ness has nothing going for him the match up" against Rosa, I mean that there's nothing in particular about the match up that is favorable for Ness. Ness still has all the things he normally has going for him of course, like his back-throw, strong aerials, etc. I didn't say the match ups is near impossible, it's just extremely in Rosalina's favor. I don't really care if Dabuz said it's only 60:40 in Rosa's favor, I'd say it's at least 70:30 in her favor. Yes Shaky can take a game off Dabuz, because Shaky is great and I never said the match up was impossible, you said that.

Well I never really meant impossible literally. just when you say "truly counters" it's like saying near impossible. And when most people say impossible, they mean near impossible.

You're going to have to explain "Nothing in particular about the matchup is favorable for Ness. Ness still has all the things he normally has going for him". I don't get it. You can't just ignore tools like that just cause. I'm pretty sure I'm misinterpreting you here though, so can you explain what you meant there?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Well I never really meant impossible literally. just when you say "truly counters" it's like saying near impossible. And when most people say impossible, they mean near impossible.

You're going to have to explain "Nothing in particular about the matchup is favorable for Ness. Ness still has all the things he normally has going for him". I don't get it. You can't just ignore tools like that just cause. I'm pretty sure I'm misinterpreting you here though, so can you explain what you meant there?

Okay, I really think you're getting hung up on semantics here. When I say that Rosalina is a true counter pick to Ness, I only mean that the match up is very much in Rosalina's favor, to the point that it would make sense for someone to pick up a pocket Rosalina to give them a better chance in the match up if their main has a bad match up against Ness. That doesn't mean Rosalina/Ness is "impossible," it's just very bad for Ness.

Again, when I said that "Ness has nothing going for him the match up," I mean there is nothing about what he does that is particularly good against Rosalina. Let me give you an example. Let's take Mario. I think Mario loses the match up against Rosalina. However, he has some things going for him in the match up. For example, his back-throw will kill Luma even at mid-stage, and his cape can easily intercept Rosalina's recovery at any % and KO her. Mario's back-throw and cape therefore can be particularly useful against Rosa. So when I said that Ness doesn't have anything in particular going for him, I just mean that he has nothing against Rosa that he wouldn't have against any other character... however, he has particular disadvantages against Rosa.

 

[Planty]

Okay, I really think you're getting hung up on semantics here. When I say that Rosalina is a true counter pick to Ness, I only mean that the match up is very much in Rosalina's favor, to the point that it would make sense for someone to pick up a pocket Rosalina to give them a better chance in the match up if their main has a bad match up against Ness. That doesn't mean Rosalina/Ness is "impossible," it's just very bad for Ness.

Again, when I said that "Ness has nothing going for him the match up," I mean there is nothing about what he does that is particularly good against Rosalina. Let me give you an example. Let's take Mario. I think Mario loses the match up against Rosalina. However, he has some things going for him in the match up. For example, his back-throw will kill Luma even at mid-stage, and his cape can easily intercept Rosalina's recovery at any % and KO her. Mario's back-throw and cape therefore can be particularly useful against Rosa. So when I said that Ness doesn't have anything in particular going for him, I just mean that he has nothing against Rosa that he wouldn't have against any other character... however, he has particular disadvantages against Rosa.

Okay lets just forget that "impossible" thing. I just misunderstood you and it's getting pointless.

Now, arguing that not having anything particularly good against a character makes for a bad matchup is just silly. Imagine you had a character with a disjointed, transcendent attack with enough range to cover the entire stage. This attack started on frame 1 with 0 frames of endlag. It was ALWAYS an OHKO when landed. BUT this was the only attack that this character possessed. Logically, this character should 100-0 the entire cast.

You're basically saying that this character would NOT 100-0 the entire cast because in individual matchups, he has nothing special. Just the same base stuff that he uses in all matchups. By saying this, it sounds like you believe spectacular moves don't change a matchup because they're spectacular in all matchups. That makes no sense. You can't count moves out because they're good.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Look, I understand what you're saying, but this is a seriously pointless argument that is really clogging up this thread. I think the match up between Rosa/Ness is strongly in Rosa's favor. That's all. Let's just drop it.

 

[Foie]

I really hope Jiggly gets a buff next patch around. They've just ignored her in all these patches despite no significant signs of viability.

I feel as though she's trudging through molasses sometimes, not able to capitalize with punishes often by a very small margin. Not to mention she has a couple of the most useless moves in the game. (rollout, sing, very mediocre smashes).

In my opinion she would benefit tremendously from a slight buff in ground and air speed. It wouldn't take much to give her a very much needed boost. Have the ever adjusted character speeds in patches?

Anybody seen signs of viability from her? Rest pretty much requires a hard read that is rare at high levels of play. And she dies at similar low percents anyway due to her weight.

 

[Rikkhan]

Shaky made top 8 at CEO going through a bunch of Rosalinas.

Hold on, unless I'm missing something Shaky didn't face falln, xaltis or neos.

http://ceogaming.challonge.com/es/2015_smash4_final
http://ceogaming.challonge.com/es/2015_smash4_3

 

[NachoOfCheese]

In my opinion she would benefit tremendously from a slight buff in ground and air speed.

Who wouldn't

 

[Foie]

Who wouldn't

Well obviously everybody would, but with Jiggly it seems that one of the biggest things holding her back is speed. Goes along with the trudging through molasses feeling if that makes sense.

 

[Zionaze]

Falco is in need of speed :0

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Thing is, they don't change speed in patches. It has never changed in any patch for any character. Ever.
So yeah. It doesn't matter how much Falco or Jigglypuff "need" it, they aren't getting it.

 

[Foie]

Falco is in need of speed :0

Very much agree with that. Sakurai has been trying to kill Falco since melee. It's sad how much they took from him in this game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Us: *wants everything good about characters to be nerfed*
Us: You know what was great? Dealing with Brawl Falco.

 

[Foie]

Us: *wants everything good about characters to be nerfed*
Us: You know what was great? Dealing with Brawl Falco.

Brawl Falco was actually pretty well balanced aside from his chain grabs on some of the cast.

I'd rather all other characters get buffed to compete rather than nerf the decent characters into mediocrity.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Brawl Falco was actually pretty well balanced aside from his chain grabs on some of the cast.

I'd rather all other characters get buffed to compete rather than nerf the decent characters into mediocrity.

This argument comes up every few pages so I'll leave you with this.

Lets say you have a lawn and your lawn is perfect. All the grass is the same length and it's green af. But one day you see a weed growing. Do you kill the weed? Or do you replace all your grass with weeds?

 

[HFlash]

Well obviously everybody would, but with Jiggly it seems that one of the biggest things holding her back is speed. Goes along with the trudging through molasses feeling if that makes sense.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Jigglypuff
She has the second fastest air speed in the game. Yes, she is a light character, and her inability to hold onto a stock is the biggest reason why she (and mewtwo for that matter) are sort of unfavored. Her kit hasn't changed much from melee and really shouldn't. She was designed to carry people off stage off of a few reads and does have the ability to do so. In her character design, no she shouldn't have faster run speed nor harder hitting smash attacks as those aren't the defining characteristics. Sakurai made sure that the smash cast (for the most part, not at all the case with say Ganon) had their movesets and the strengths/weaknesses in them match the character design and sort of "identity." At least unlike mewtwo, Jiggly is floaty, and small, making it harder for her to be combo'd on. If you were to buff her, it would make more sense to make Jiggly be able to do what she can do better. The new ledge mechanics does hurt her, but at the same time, you have I believe a bigger rest hitbox so if anything, Jiggly's meta development would most likely revolve around rest set ups.

I don't play Luigi much but I do know that Ness has exploitable weaknesses and super one sided bad matchups. Ness vs Rosalina is one of the most rage quit worthy matchups in the game and matchups like Mario and Sheik are pretty BS too. He's obviously a lot better than he has been in the past but he still suffers from the same problems: awkward/exploitable jump and recovery and grab releases near edges are still bad news bears for him.

If it's possible to gimp Ness' recovery, (Rosa down b, mario cape) than yes, that alone would merit Ness having heavily one sided match ups against him. However, this isn't the case with Shiek. What does Shiek have on Ness that she doesn't also have on the rest of the cast? (Shaky has not had any notable difficulty with Shieks in particular, it's pretty much Rosas that make the Ness MU look silly).

 

[Pazzo.]

If we buff everyone, others will have to be buffed to compensate, who will have to be buffed again, etc, etc.

If we nerf the biggest problems, we avoid having SSB4 be Brawl Minus 2.0.

 

[Asdioh]

I thought it'd be a while until someone starts playing Wario optimally

This is what's gonna put him on the radar.

I'm not gonna watch the whole match, but I assume he just runs away constantly to charge fart? I already knew this, but his Bike is kinda a big problem. You literally can't touch him if he doesn't want you to, because of the height and speed he gets from the Bike. It's kinda like playing against Sonic/other fast characters on big stages like Duck Hunt, except Wario can do it on any stage. :x
A Wario that doesn't run away is super fun to fight, buuut if he wants to win, it becomes very lame.

 

[Jams.]

If we buff everyone, others will have to be buffed to compensate, who will have to be buffed again, etc, etc.

If we nerf the biggest problems, we avoid having SSB4 be Brawl Minus 2.0.

You're using a slippery slope argument for power creep, but completely neglecting the same argument for power drain. Buffing characters does not necessarily lead to power creep, and not everyone has to be buffed or receive compensation buffs. This game is a good example of this; the development team has buffed far more characters than they nerfed, yet there is no power creep because all the changes have been reasonable.

Power drain is also an issue. If we continuously remove cool and unique tools characters have and go too far, we end up with a bland game that no one wants to play.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know whether Ginko used at all at Umebura FAT?