Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Routa]

Why does this thread always circle back to championing for nerfs once per week. This isn't productive in the slightest.

We are kinda running out of characters to talk about.

Anyways shall we talk about Shulk? He does have some good MUs (he is Wario best Wario counter atm) but everyone knows he lack the framedata. So... Is Shulk good at all?

 

[Mr. Johan]

People will always discuss buffs and nerfs because Nintendo has not confirmed it will stop patches any time soon. And with a patch coming on the 30th (Game has to be patched in order for Mario Maker to function, no telling if this patch will have balance changes or not), rampant discussion is inevitable. There's really nothing that can be done about it.

Hell, buff and nerf discussion technically is a "competitive impression". People get the impression that Flip Jump and Boost Kick are nuts, so they have the impression that they need to be toned down a bit or a lot.

How does Shulk beat Wario though? I don't see Nair, Fair, and Utilt stopping Wario for too long with his speed.

 

[Amadeus9]

We are kinda running out of characters to talk about.

Anyways shall we talk about Shulk? He does have some good MUs (he is Wario best Wario counter atm) but everyone knows he lack the framedata. So... Is Shulk good at all?

I've always thought his character design was kind of... contradictory. Speed art is frankly amazing but it encourages a playstyle that Shulk's moveset isn't really capable of doing... at all. The penalty for using anything other than max range on all of his moves is way too steep. It's odd that he has these tools when he was clearly designed to be a turtling character.

What exactly does Shulk have over Wario? That isn't a matchup I'd think he'd have an advantage in.

 

[Ffamran]

Luigi has a Dtilt?

He's got an Utilt too: https://youtu.be/dY7Mf2_AOYI. A user at the Falco boards checked and said this works up until Super Jump Punch. If so, then Little Mac, Roy, Mega Man, and Falco are about to get 50/50'd from this setup. Presumably Fox, Greninja, and Triple D too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly if they make ZSS Up+B not kill off the top early (not that I want them to nor that I see it necessary) I think at the very least they should let it link and connect better with rage/vs. high percents. I think Up+B OoS at high %s being a kill would be pretty handy and compensate for it (considering how a lot of chars can drop or fly out of it at high %s where you'd think it would be best), but I doubt they're touching her Up+B any time soon nor does it really matter.

Also Trifroze I am 80% sure why you like ZSS outside of the reasons you listed. Her dashgrab compared to other tethergrabbers is like Falcon's dashgrab vs. regular dashgrab lol. She kind of like, zips forward a bit before the grab actually comes out (note: It's nowhere near as good as Falcon grab, but the movement forward and how it works reminds me so much of it.)

Regardless, to talk about Ryu again, I know I made a post earlier but I'd like to elaborate on why I think this means Ryu is pretty damn solid. Paragon was stacked and so was this event, I'd argue it was more stacked here because of aforementioned skill density (thx Gheb for that terminology), and solo Ryu managed to get all the way to 5th, which is awesome!

However it did give me clear insight, namely that the MUs I predicted to be really annoying for Ryu were pretty much on point. At least one of them was proven, that being Sonic, just because of how Sonic works. I also think Pika is a struggle for Ryu but I'd like more affirmation on this. Every other top tier in the game is pretty decent for Ryu (yes, even Sheik, he loses but it's not abysmal), but Sonic and Pikachu both have traits that he hates dealing with, moreso Sonic because of how Sonic's movement works and his commitment scale. Pikachu is mostly annoying for hitbox reasons, despite being super outranged. Still, this is a pretty good indicator as to how good of a character Ryu is, he's the only DLC character who's made waves this far after his release, and I'm pretty happy seeing other people going in with him. Is Ryu top tier? I'm not sure, but he seems to be able to hang with the big boys, so it's definitely a possibility. Also Shaya this was definitely 9B's breakout tournament with Ryu (and with Smash 4 in general, Shulk was interesting but Ryu is so much more rewarding with the time put in, evidently).

And yes the whole asking for nerfs thing is rather irritating. The meta is in a good and fairly interesting spot right now in all accounts, it's been shifted around a LOT, let's have our top settle a bit (we can buff up the lower characters, by all means!).

 

[Browny]

Why do people think ZSS 'deserves' to have boost kick be more reliable?

Does ganon deserve to have a guaranteed fsmash out of flame choke?
Does falco deserve to have his melee dair make a comeback?

No character is entitled to anything... just because she has a powerful upb, doesnt mean she needs it forever.

Just look at diddy, pretty sure no one said he deserved his old upair yet for ZSS, apparently she needs it because reasons. She doesnt deserve such a powerful kill combo any more than the other 53 characters in this game who would like to have such a move and struggle much harder for kills than she does.

 

[David Viran]

Honestly if they make ZSS Up+B not kill off the top early (not that I want them to nor that I see it necessary) I think at the very least they should let it link and connect better with rage/vs. high percents. I think Up+B OoS at high %s being a kill would be pretty handy and compensate for it (considering how a lot of chars can drop or fly out of it at high %s where you'd think it would be best), but I doubt they're touching her Up+B any time soon nor does it really matter.

Also Trifroze I am 80% sure why you like ZSS outside of the reasons you listed. Her dashgrab compared to other tethergrabbers is like Falcon's dashgrab vs. regular dashgrab lol. She kind of like, zips forward a bit before the grab actually comes out (note: It's nowhere near as good as Falcon grab, but the movement forward and how it works reminds me so much of it.)

Regardless, to talk about Ryu again, I know I made a post earlier but I'd like to elaborate on why I think this means Ryu is pretty damn solid. Paragon was stacked and so was this event, I'd argue it was more stacked here because of aforementioned skill density (thx Gheb for that terminology), and solo Ryu managed to get all the way to 5th, which is awesome!

However it did give me clear insight, namely that the MUs I predicted to be really annoying for Ryu were pretty much on point. At least one of them was proven, that being Sonic, just because of how Sonic works. I also think Pika is a struggle for Ryu but I'd like more affirmation on this. Every other top tier in the game is pretty decent for Ryu (yes, even Sheik, he loses but it's not abysmal), but Sonic and Pikachu both have traits that he hates dealing with, moreso Sonic because of how Sonic's movement works and his commitment scale. Pikachu is mostly annoying for hitbox reasons, despite being super outranged. Still, this is a pretty good indicator as to how good of a character Ryu is, he's the only DLC character who's made waves this far after his release, and I'm pretty happy seeing other people going in with him. Is Ryu top tier? I'm not sure, but he seems to be able to hang with the big boys, so it's definitely a possibility. Also Shaya this was definitely 9B's breakout tournament with Ryu (and with Smash 4 in general, Shulk was interesting but Ryu is so much more rewarding with the time put in, evidently).

And yes the whole asking for nerfs thing is rather irritating. The meta is in a good and fairly interesting spot right now in all accounts, it's been shifted around a LOT, let's have our top settle a bit (we can buff up the lower characters, by all means!).

ZSS's dash grab actually zips farther than falcons.

 

[Routa]

I've always thought his character design was kind of... contradictory. Speed art is frankly amazing but it encourages a playstyle that Shulk's moveset isn't really capable of doing... at all. The penalty for using anything other than max range on all of his moves is way too steep. It's odd that he has these tools when he was clearly designed to be a turtling character.

What exactly does Shulk have over Wario? That isn't a matchup I'd think he'd have an advantage in.

Wario cannot get in (at least easily). Shulk is able to create a wall of disjoint which Wario cannot pass. Shulks Fair and Nair destroy Wario's every approach option. Also the fact that Shulk is one of the few characters that are able to edgeguard Wario. Wario just lacks the tools against character with big hitboxes.

 

[TTTTTsd]

ZSS's dash grab actually zips farther than falcons.

I didn't know that, actually!

Also ZSS Up+B being more reliable as far as my "suggestion" (ergo what I think they'd do if they even touched the move) would be to make the final hit's angle less conducive to really low % top blastzone kills (i.e. mostly horizontal) for the trade off of not having people drop out of it randomly at high %s. If it had neither A nor B it'd honestly be a pretty meh move. I'm not going to elaborate any further on this, this is pretty much my final opinion on Boost Kick, I don't really think it has to be changed at all but if they did make it worse at killing off the top I'd at least expect the move to connect properly at %s that matter. But the likelihood of this happening is pretty low.

 

[G. Stache]

While we're discussing a bit of Ryu, how does he do against Luigi/Yoshi/Ganon. I can't really get a good read on Ryu because of cost reasons/I keep away from For Glory because of lag and bad players who don't improve my game at all. So I don't know the MU too well. Anyone care to explain?

 

[HeavyLobster]

While we're discussing a bit of Ryu, how does he do against Luigi/Yoshi/Ganon. I can't really get a good read on Ryu because of cost reasons/I keep away from For Glory because of lag and bad players who don't improve my game at all. So I don't know the MU too well. Anyone care to explain?

Ryu handles Ganon pretty well, probably 6-4. He's better in footsies and hits almost as hard. The others I don't know.

 

[Zionaze]

Wario cannot get in (at least easily). Shulk is able to create a wall of disjoint which Wario cannot pass. Shulks Fair and Nair destroy Wario's every approach option. Also the fact that Shulk is one of the few characters that are able to edgeguard Wario. Wario just lacks the tools against character with big hitboxes.

Wario doesnt really "need" to approach. And i'm still a firm believer on link being our worst MU

 

[TTTTTsd]

While we're discussing a bit of Ryu, how does he do against Luigi/Yoshi/Ganon. I can't really get a good read on Ryu because of cost reasons/I keep away from For Glory because of lag and bad players who don't improve my game at all. So I don't know the MU too well. Anyone care to explain?

Luigi vs. Ryu I'd think right now is even, Luigi's fireballs are pretty annoying but Ryu does ridiculous damage in footsies and has a lot of really fast, long aerials with low lag that can discourage dashgrabbing, Ryu is really dangerous to approach up close and if Luigi didn't have his fireball I'd be convinced that Ryu wins, but I think it's even atm, I don't have a ton of experience vs. Luigi but this is just me trying to match the mentality. Ryu has ways to discourage grabbing, and they both have pretty strong punish games vs. each other (Ryu's raw damage vs. Luigi's grab game)

 

[irokex13]

What is this reality you speak of where frame data is apparently a minor factor? You dodge ZSS' grab once when she's at 80-100% and she's dead. You can't just throw it out like you can with other characters. Her grab is 16 frames at minimum range and 24 frames at max range and has 69 frames total which is more than twice as much as non-tether grabs and more than any other tether grab bar Samus and Pac-Man (who has twice as much lingering frames and considerably faster startup). ZSS' grab has its situtations where it's better than a normal grab because of trapping potential, but it is not a reliable grab in neutral because it's extremely risky for approaches and it can't be used to shield grab most things you could with a normal one. Empty hop into grab is also an option you don't really have except when the opponent is in immense pressure. The negatives outweigh the positives and any decent player will tell you ZSS has one of the worst grabs in the game simply because of how much cooldown it has and how much it limits your options.

While I agree with ZSS not having a great grab, don't forget that Robin has a massive 40 frame FAF on their standing grab and 50 on their dash grab. Combine that with the worst grab range, no frame 1 jab, frame 3 u tilt, frame 4 up B OoS, invincible down B, or frame 4 jump squat (why Sakurai? Why a 7 frame jump squat?), along with a less consistent D throw combo, and it starts to become easy to understand why people want ZSS to be toned down a bit. As much as I like ZSS, her Up B and down B are a bit too strong.

 

[adom4]

While we're discussing a bit of Ryu, how does he do against Luigi/Yoshi/Ganon. I can't really get a good read on Ryu because of cost reasons/I keep away from For Glory because of lag and bad players who don't improve my game at all. So I don't know the MU too well. Anyone care to explain?

I'd say Ryu vs Ganondorf is pretty close but Ryu's better kill options give him the edge.

 

[TurboLink]

Metaknight is already getting hateand crying for nerfs, zss is gonna get it 10 times worse. Its a damn shame.

Where is Meta Knight getting hate from? I want to see this.

 

[Routa]

Wario doesnt really "need" to approach. And i'm still a firm believer on link being our worst MU

Ofc he doesn't need to... But does Shulk have to? Nah... Waft is not as good tool to force enemy to approach.

But I do agree that Link along with Ike are one of the worst MU for Wario.

How to beat Wario? Out Space him. He is fat with little no reach outside his body.

 

[LancerStaff]

Bowser, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, the Pits, Zelda, and some more would also be under the minor buff crew.

Pit's arrow buff wasn't minor though... Being able to hover in place and shoot arrows (due to the reduced endlag) helps in a bunch of matchups like Shiek, ZSS, and DDD off the top of my head.

 

[T4ylor]

Ffamran why do you think characters as middling as Part and Dark Pit need to be buffed? They are at least better than half of the cast.

 

[Trifroze]

Also Trifroze I am 80% sure why you like ZSS outside of the reasons you listed. Her dashgrab compared to other tethergrabbers is like Falcon's dashgrab vs. regular dashgrab lol. She kind of like, zips forward a bit before the grab actually comes out (note: It's nowhere near as good as Falcon grab, but the movement forward and how it works reminds me so much of it.)

Yeah, the boost ZSS gains on her dashgrab is about equal to Falcon and that makes it a very good mid-long range punish option.

While I agree with ZSS not having a great grab, don't forget that Robin has a massive 40 frame FAF on their standing grab and 50 on their dash grab. Combine that with the worst grab range, no frame 1 jab, frame 3 u tilt, frame 4 up B OoS, invincible down B, or frame 4 jump squat (why Sakurai? Why a 7 frame jump squat?), along with a less consistent D throw combo, and it starts to become easy to understand why people want ZSS to be toned down a bit. As much as I like ZSS, her Up B and down B are a bit too strong.

Robin also has one of the worst grabs and was on my mind when typing that part out. OoS and CQC options are probably Robin's biggest weakness along with recovery so I think bringing the other moves up is irrelevant though. Robin's strengths lie elsewhere. ZSS' jab is fast but it's honestly not very good, it straight up loses to a lot of other jabs and moves that don't outdamage it by >=9% and goes over many characters' heads when you try to punish them for something. It's an alright option in the end of it all.

 

[Nobie]

This is a bit old, but Abadango made a video showing Mewtwo's roll canceled grab. Suffice it to say, it travels pretty danged far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfdYyrBtf_0

 

[irokex13]

Robin also has one of the worst grabs and was on my mind when typing that part out. OoS and CQC options are probably Robin's biggest weakness along with recovery so I think bringing the other moves up is irrelevant though. Robin's strengths lie elsewhere. ZSS' jab is fast but it's honestly not very good, it straight up loses to a lot of other jabs and moves that don't outdamage it by >=9% and goes over many characters' heads when you try to punish them for something. It's an alright option in the end of it all.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think Robin's CQC is bad? I get the poor OoS options, but isn't their jab and Levin Sword aerials threatening to most of the cast? And even though their grab range is ridiculously poor, you don't want to get grabbed by them, as they actually have some interesting throw set ups.

Also, I don't understand why everyone says Robin's recovery is that bad. It goes deep and spikes flubbed edgeguard attempts. Sure there's no hitbox above it, but you have several moves that linger above you to ward off foes (ArcFire, ArcThunder, LS Up air, LS Fair). It's not the best, but I would definitely say it's a step above the likes of Dr.Mario and Falcon.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

The most patient Wario player I've seen so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5yncUQo87k

I feel like this is where his meta will eventually evolve to.

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran why do you think characters as middling as Part and Dark Pit need to be buffed? They are at least better than half of the cast.

What? When did I imply that? I said their and plenty of other characters had very minor buffs or nerfs. They, unlike Ike, Greninja, DK, and Diddy did not get significant game-changing buffs or nerfs. Are the Pits' Arrows better? Yes, but are they significantly game-changing? Did they suddenly become high or low tier because of their changes?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I wrote a thing on my personal impressions from Umebura F.A.T. if anyone is interested.

Not a real Luigi in sight. Are there no Luigi's in Japan or am I just lacking knowledge?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's Aki who plays Luigi but to my knowledge he didn't enter Umebura.

 

[T4ylor]

I wrote a thing on my personal impressions from Umebura F.A.T. if anyone is interested.

Not a real Luigi in sight. Are there no Luigi's in Japan or am I just lacking knowledge?

Aki uses Luigi and Sheik. He's the only one that's been beating Ranai recently, too. He didn't show up for this event.

Ffamran think I misunderstood where you were going with that post.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Edit: Also with all of this talk about top characters being easy to use, why hasn't anyone mentioned or?

I don't play Luigi much but I do know that Ness has exploitable weaknesses and super one sided bad matchups. Ness vs Rosalina is one of the most rage quit worthy matchups in the game and matchups like Mario and Sheik are pretty BS too. He's obviously a lot better than he has been in the past but he still suffers from the same problems: awkward/exploitable jump and recovery and grab releases near edges are still bad news bears for him.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I've always thought his character design was kind of... contradictory. Speed art is frankly amazing but it encourages a playstyle that Shulk's moveset isn't really capable of doing... at all. The penalty for using anything other than max range on all of his moves is way too steep. It's odd that he has these tools when he was clearly designed to be a turtling character.

What exactly does Shulk have over Wario? That isn't a matchup I'd think he'd have an advantage in.

It IS quite helpful for his spacing though. It greatly improves his pivot options (along with one of if not the longest perfect pivots) and it helps him stay under people for juggles. Plus having more speed in general is a useful trait to have, regardless of your archtype.

The one Wario I've fought in tournament kinda bowled over me (holy frick you don't know how good Chomp is until you fight it yourself), but I imagine it isn't TOO bad for Shulk since Wario's pretty short-ranged. Definitely wouldn't call it an advantage until I can actually fight one more than twice though.

"Is Shulk good at all?" was asked. I'd say he's alright myself, but I'm biased. Monado Arts is one of the best moves in the game in my opinion, Air Slash is solid OOS, Bair is a fantastic poke, and he can live for a good while even without Shield art. But of course his frame data is the pits, and his height and slow aerials can make him juggle/combo food, though Jump can help him out of juggles via improved air speed and Shield can mitigate early damage % combos via reduced hitstun. Knowing he probably won't get significant startup frame buffs, I'm personally hoping to see some better FAF or maybe some reduced landing lag next patch.

 

[Pazzo.]

Shulk's not terrible.

In this current meta, he or she who has the best grab confirms is king. When you don't have great, consistent kill options off a grab, you don't get as much attention.

 

[Amadeus9]

It IS quite helpful for his spacing though. It greatly improves his pivot options (along with one of if not the longest perfect pivots) and it helps him stay under people for juggles. Plus having more speed in general is a useful trait to have, regardless of your archtype.

Obviously the art is valuable. It's just that, like I said, it seems like a number of his arts just work so counter to his kit, so that the optimal way to play him is to use his moveset in a way that would otherwise be sub-optimal. Yes he's better with arts active, but if they were tweaked to better compliment his kit or his kit was tweaked to better compliment his arts, he'd be significantly better. Big problem for him is that outside of like... just Rosa, turtling playstyles are really weak in this game, so the only option is to use the moveset in a way that is, as I said, suboptimal and contradicts his design. (imo, at least)

Tbh if he had a few frames off startup on fair he'd probably be a fantastic turtle. But as it is most high or top tiers can get in and hit him before he even has time to wall. Most characters in general, actually. So no, I don't think he's good, at least not within the context of what wins tournaments.

As for balance patches, we'll get there when we get there B)

Here's hoping he gets some tweaks though. He's an interesting character.

 

[Nu~]

Shulk's not terrible.

In this current meta, he or she who has the best grab confirms is king. When you don't have great, consistent kill options off a grab, you don't get as much attention.

To be fair, Fox, rosa, and pikachu get plenty of attention and none of them have kill throws or kill setups from a grab.

 

[Pazzo.]

To be fair, Fox, rosa, and pikachu get plenty of attention and none of them have kill throws or kill setups from a grab.

True. But those characters either are incredibly quick, or have great camping games.

 

[momochuu]

even though some did not get top 8 (****ing sheik...), i'd still love to see his matches. there was some serious killers in this tournament and top 16 is even impressive.

 

[CommanderRin]

Problem with Shulk is that he gets punished for being Shulk.

All the characters he should outrange and wall out can punish him for throwing a move out.

Easiest example would be Sheik's notorious projectile.

-Scrub opinion

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd say Ryu vs Ganondorf is pretty close but Ryu's better kill options give him the edge.

So..yall know Ryu can utilt lock Ganon right? And its real vs him right? He CANNOT do anything. He just dies.

It's not 6/4. Ganon dreams of 6/4 disadvantage vs Ryu.

Vs Luigi and Yoshi is prolly even. Raptor swears on his life Ryu beats Yoshi but I disagree. We have this debate every time we talk in person which is about once a week.

 

[adom4]

So..yall know Ryu can utilt lock Ganon right? And its real vs him right? He CANNOT do anything. He just dies.

It's not 6/4. Ganon dreams of 6/4 disadvantage vs Ryu.

Vs Luigi and Yoshi is prolly even. Raptor swears on his life Ryu beats Yoshi but I disagree. We have this debate every time we talk in person which is about once a week.

Is it as bad as it is on Fox?
i did get locked by it but i did manage to get out with some struggle, and ryu has to work to get that close to ganon because of his range.
I can see the MU getting worse over time though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's easier to time vs Ganon because of his weight and large hurtbox. Also his low mobility opens up far more opportunities to land it.

The match is basically Ganon vs Ganon ver T-3000. Just as strong, faster, better combos, more combos, ACTUAL kill confirms, better punish game, better neutral, better advantage, better disadvantage, etc.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I don't think it's safe to say the lock will be around forever. Smash 4, for all of its faults, has a pretty solid track record of cleaning out infinites with the rest of the trash (though not always in the cleverest of ways).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Removing the lock will turn Ryu vs Ganon from 8-2 to 7-3.

The match is a lost cause.