Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Zionaze]

Is SM from socal a notable ike main? He played dkwill at paragon

 

[Mario766]

You mean SM.

He is, but he isn't on the level of Ryo, San or Ryuga.

 

[san.]

Is SE from socal a notable ike main? He played dkwill at paragon

There's a pretty sizable gap. It's something like

Ryo, Ryuga | SM San Waldo | Blitz Stark Rango

where anyone in the group can occasionally bleed into any adjacent group.

GP may be in group 2 or 3, but there are too few details to even compare.

1st group can be a national threat. Second group can be a regional threat, third group can be a local. There's a gap between the first group and the rest, and Ryo/Ryuga don't travel to nationals unless it's in their backyard. It's pretty much the same for the other players as well. Ike is just now getting good, and that's through patch changes, so it will take a while to take advantage of the patch changes to its fullest potential. There is also a lack of competitive userbase due to the character not being that good when the game came out.

Look at any buffed character and you won't see new competitive players picking them up outside of extremely rare cases, just the existing players doing a bit better than before. These players are typically only mid-high level at most as well. You don't traditionally see more than 2 players at the vanguard of a character at any given time outside of the best characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You mean SM.

He is, but he isn't on the level of Ryo, San or Ryuga.

Ya he's generally considered #4.

@ Nationals: From what I remember one nobody could go to, another one was customless so nobody wanted to go, and then at CEO Ryo ran into ESAM + what San already mentioned and SM was one stock away from moving out of pools. And then the other ones after that were cases of them being too far away from the people who might want to travel. BH5 is the first one that works on all cylinders for those top 3.

 

[L9999]

Those characters do get hard countered vs some characters, so why not develop other characters to play specifically against the counters? Shaky has a pretty good Pikachu to deal with Rosalinas for example. As far as Shiek is concerned, alot of characters have a negative MU on Shiek (including Ness) so the same argument doesn't apply quite as much to him.

Shaky plays Rat? So what's that joke of "get a secondary Shaky"?

 

[Dre89]

Discussion on ease of use is kind of a waste of time when this thread is for competitive Smash. Things like "cheese" are simply perception, and are mostly irrelevant in high level play. Relative character strength is what matters, and more often than not coincides with top level results. Nobody should bother fighting over who their kid brother could do well with against his friends.

No one is talking about casual level play. She has a higher floor than most characters at that level because controlling Luma is different to controlling a conventional character.

No one is also saying that she's easy to win with in high level play. Regardless of who you use, you need high level fundamentals to succeed at that level.

What I am saying however, is that a high level she's more basic than other top tiers because controlling Luma is more basic than controlling an actual character effectively at that level of play.

Another factor is that a lot of her strength is passive because Luma invalidates so many options by simply existing. For example a Luma standing in front of Rosa ruins Diddy's nana game in neutral. That's a huge portion of a character's meta that is invalidated without Rosa having to do anything.

Again, compare the movement and commands Dabuz uses compared to other top players. Other players have to constantly implement dash tech, empty hops, FF aerials and empties, pivoting just to get in on her and Dabuz doesn't have to do that stuff with anywhere near the same frequency to be effective.

Edit- What I'm saying is not to take anything away from Dabuz. The guy is an amazing player and deserves every bit of success he has

 

[HFlash]

Shaky plays Rat? So what's that joke of "get a secondary Shaky"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SvRoLiZ14

No where good enough to beat say Dabuz with, but he's got one (he practices his Pikachu a lot when he is up on a set in weeklies).

 

[C0rvus]

No one is talking about casual level play. She has a higher floor than most characters at that level because controlling Luma is different to controlling a conventional character.

No one is also saying that she's easy to win with in high level play. Regardless of who you use, you need high level fundamentals to succeed at that level.

What I am saying however, is that a high level she's more basic than other top tiers because controlling Luma is more basic than controlling an actual character effectively at that level of play.

Another factor is that a lot of her strength is passive because Luma invalidates so many options by simply existing. For example a Luma standing in front of Rosa ruins Diddy's nana game in neutral. That's a huge portion of a character's meta that is invalidated without Rosa having to do anything.

Again, compare the movement and commands Dabuz uses compared to other top players. Other players have to constantly implement dash tech, empty hops, FF aerials and empties, pivoting just to get in on her and Dabuz doesn't have to do that stuff with anywhere near the same frequency to be effective.

Meh, I've seen this argument in every game. Fewer inputs doesn't necessarily mean a character is easier to play, and at high level such a thing is incredibly trivial. It's not like top Rosalinas no longer have to manage Luma, in fact it becomes more difficult to do well. The whole puppet character dichotomy is still present, and it is another layer on top of normal play. Am I missing something? Because moving Luma well isn't more easy than moving a regular character, especially considering the limitations he has, and the fact that Rosalina still exists and functions fully as a standalone character.

Luma does passively affect neutral, I will grant you that. But he doesn't invalidate Diddy's entire banana game, it's an important aspect of the MU that both players should know, but let's be real. Inputs mean little. You're like one of those dudes that complain about Jigglypuff players in Melee.

 

[Megamang]

Luma is weird. Playing against her she feels like an impenetrable fortress sometimes. Yet playing as her, especially against a skilled player who knows the MU (how to kill lumas with efficiency is a big part IMO), she feels very awkward / vulnerable.

As far as Ike goes, im scared for my life at BH5 if he gets buffed right beforehand... Please, Japan, realize how good this character is!


Japan Vs World Crew Battles right now, featuring Nairo, Vinny, probably nienteno... http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Rikkhan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2SvRoLiZ14

No where good enough to beat say Dabuz with, but he's got one (he practices his Pikachu a lot when he is up on a set in weeklies).

*watches video*
ehhh... okay... any other video were he performs better?

 

[HFlash]

*watches video*
ehhh... okay... any other video were he performs better?

https://youtu.be/MZCsMOrartg?t=155
I never said Shaky's Pikachu is ESAM level, but he is currently working on it. Here's an example of him pulling it out after going up a game in one of the bigger California Smash 4 weeklies (Come on and Ban).

 

[NegaNixx]

What duos do you guys/gals think work well together as co-mains. A while back I heard a lot of Pika/Rosa being thrown around with some Shiek/Luigi as well, now that Shaky's Pikachu was brought up I thought it would be a good time to ask.

Any ideas and reasonings?

 

[Megamang]

I like Pika/ZSS because when pika struggles with range or air speed she can close that gap better. Also because she does really well vs luigi IMO. Ness is a problem for both, but I have yet to lose to any nesses, or encounter any notable ones in bracket.

Woah, crew battle at umumbra comes down to nairo v ranai. Ranai making villager's zone control look unbeatable!

 

[Rikkhan]

jesus ranai villager wrecked nairo an ally, proof that villager is at least top 15.

 

[T4ylor]

To follow up the last post. It came down to Ally's Mario at 2 stocks and Nairo's ZSS at 3 Stocks. Ranai was the last one up, with 3 stocks, and beat them out for Japan's win.

 

[Mario766]

No one in NA has any experience against a top level Villager.


Johns aside, jesus christ Ranai PLS

 

[Ffamran]

Look at any buffed character and you won't see new competitive players picking them up outside of extremely rare cases, just the existing players doing a bit better than before. These players are typically only mid-high level at most as well. You don't traditionally see more than 2 players at the vanguard of a character at any given time outside of the best characters.

Or even almost getting dropped like Marth was for Mr. E who swapped Marth and Sheik's order of main/secondary and I guess Emblem Lord, but he's a case of new character, Ryu, comes in he actually wants to play. Well, that's what it looks like to me, so feel free to correct me. The only rare case I can think of that a buffed character has seen more usage is DK and that's because people are riding on the cargo U-throw train except this time, you actually have to know what you're doing or you're going to look stupid spamming grabs and uselessly flailing around with cargo U-throw while Diddy had more leeway with D-throw to Uair. Even still, M2K is pretty much the only notable new DK player that I know of.

Robin, Greninja, Charizard, Falco, Link, and even Diddy, Fox, and Luigi haven't seen major increases to their usage at high levels. If anything, some of them were dropped like Diddy because he's no longer borderline broken, some like Luigi continue a trend of massive usage, but only few players actually do anything, while some like Fox and Falco had "buffs" so minor, they were more like quality of life changes or just changes than straightup buffs. If Fox ever gets his Melee Uair, guaranteed kill confirms on all of his throws, or the ability to jump out of a frame 1 Reflector, then we'll talk about how Fox isn't getting used more. Bowser, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, the Pits, Zelda, and some more would also be under the minor buff crew. Ike, DK, Marth/Lucina, Meta Knight - went from barely functional because of dumb hitboxes to functional -, Robin, and Greninja are the only characters that were buffed in a significant way. Diddy and perhaps Greninja and Samus - if we are to believe her pre-release self was much, much stronger - were the only characters nerfed in significant ways. Everyone else is getting duct tape over major issues some of which are actually very simple to solve. This includes Sheik and Samus who represent minor nerfs and minor buffs.

 

[Djent]

Worth mentioning that Ranai has quite a bit of experience vs. Choco in tournament (he's up 3-2 in sets).

Also, Sakasaka (Sheik) beat Brood and is currently very close vs. Nairo. EDIT: he lost the lead both games.

 

[thehard]

My god Japan is full of killers

 

[Nobie]

I've heard something mentioned before when it comes to other fighting games, which is that the top US players can go toe to toe with the top Japanese players, but that the median level of player skill in Japan is so high that you get insanely good players even at local arcades. Not quite the same for a home console game, but I think we're seeing that here too to some extent.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

As far as Ike goes, im scared for my life at BH5 if he gets buffed right beforehand... Please, Japan, realize how good this character is!

We have a hugely talented Ike player under the tag Ryuga in our state whose ranked 6th in our PR and just recently played ZeRo's Sheik at Rebirth. Completely agree, and even when you think the odds and frame data are stacked against you, we get to see really talented from a character people thought would be bad. Link to the match below if people are interested in seeing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajyGDjt3XvY&feature=share

Stupid SD aside, this guy has really been pushing Ike in the meta. You can tell he knows and plays this matchup fairly well, and I can definitely see him being a larger threat as he develops.

 

[Djent]

Ryu-B over Umeki and Saiya so far, faces Nairo next. I might have to fix my face.

 

[HFlash]

What are the Japanese Yoshis (or whatever the plural of Yoshi is) doing that the American ones aren't? Japanese Yoshi just beat a Japanese Shiek on stream.

RIP|Merrick We just spent like 3 thread pages talking about the set, and Ike's viability.

Note: Your sig gif would make alot more sense if you were a Falcon main.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

...Wow, really? Didn't realize that many people took note of it, my b. I'll give those pages a look to see people's thoughts then.

 

[Teshie U]

Nairo bout to fight 9B.

ZSS vs Ryu should be hype to watch. Never even seen this matchup before at any level.

 

[Djent]

1-1 with double chokesies AAAAAAHHH

EDIT: But order was restored to the universe.

 

[thehard]

Nairo has some crazy movement today in particular. (The Lucas he faced in doubles GFs did too, gotta watch the VOD again)

If we could only have Japan and America play all the time, the meta growth would accelerate tenfold. Feels like everyone's being pushed to their limits.

 

[Dre89]

Meh, I've seen this argument in every game. Fewer inputs doesn't necessarily mean a character is easier to play, and at high level such a thing is incredibly trivial. It's not like top Rosalinas no longer have to manage Luma, in fact it becomes more difficult to do well. The whole puppet character dichotomy is still present, and it is another layer on top of normal play. Am I missing something? Because moving Luma well isn't more easy than moving a regular character, especially considering the limitations he has, and the fact that Rosalina still exists and functions fully as a standalone character.

Luma does passively affect neutral, I will grant you that. But he doesn't invalidate Diddy's entire banana game, it's an important aspect of the MU that both players should know, but let's be real. Inputs mean little. You're like one of those dudes that complain about Jigglypuff players in Melee.

It's not about inputs as in tech skill. It's about inputs in terms of options required. The reality is Rosa is as effective as other top tiers whilst requiring less or more basic options then they do.


You would have a point if Rosa's movement was as complex as other characters, as well having to control Luma on top of that, but that's not the case. Most of the depth in Rosa's play is in controlling Luma, not Rosa herself. Obviously Rosa doesn't just stand still, she still moves and has to space etc. but it's no where as complex as other characters. The point is that controlling other characters is much more complex than controlling Luma.

You tried to imply that the fact that Luma has limited options makes her harder to play, but that's exactly what makes her more basic. A lot of Rosa hate comes from the fact that Luma's 'limited' options beat out all of a character's complex options, or go evenish in the case of top tiers. That's the point, other top tiers have to do much more complex actions do get the same effect or better than she can.

I also specifically mentioned Diddy's 'neutral' nana game. As in, when both characters have all their options available. So by simply standing there with Luma in front of her, she renders his nana useless. He either has to earn an advantage with a nana in hand on or on the ground, or he has to earn the advantage then pluck the nana and use it without allowing her to reset to neutral. I don't characters countering others but she's like the only character who counters numerous gameplay elements passively.

 

[Megamang]

A shiek charging needles makes you approach and denys you a lot of options, though I guess this isn't passive. No one does much passively, depending on how you define that. We see rain abusing charged needles against this Pit, Earth. He counterpicked Lylat, IMO to make the needles less effective, and it seems to be working so far.

 

[Djent]

Earth beats Rain and Komorikiri beats Ally. One of the losers can place no higher than 13th.

Also, the prophecy of the 2-frame ledgesnap punish is being fulfilled.

EDIT: Kirihara over Ranai. is definitely a problem for .

 

[DanGR]

I'm pretty sure he hit him with fsmash as he rode up the ledge.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm just hoping Some does well in this Umebura since he's probably the best Greninja right now. He already lost to Rain in Winners (The Sheik MU is so bad) but he seems to be doing well in Losers.

But geez the Sheik MU is a major roadblock for Greninja in tournaments.

 

[bc1910]

If Some beats his current opponent (don't know who it is) he'll fight Nietono for a place in top 12.

I'm expecting him to lose to Nietono if this happens, meaning Some will have been taken out by 2 Sheiks.

And top 16 is still a good placement. Showing Greninja's semi viable, but completely *********** by Sheik right now.

 

[Djent]

Some is in top 16

Rain and Abadango are not

> top-3-ranked ppl

 

[HFlash]

Speaking of characters .... blocked by Shiek, where are the Japanese Falcons at? I haven't seen a single one on stream. :/

 

[Jucchan]

Speaking of characters .... blocked by Shiek, where are the Japanese Falcons at? I haven't seen a single one on stream. :/

Saiya lost to 9B's Ryu, and Pichi lost to Mizutani's Yoshi in Winners. Then, Pichi eliminated Saiya in losers. Finally, Pichi lost to Sakasaka's Sheik. Falcon got eliminated pretty early.

 

[Jehtt]

9B's Ryu just beat Vinnie's Sheik 2-1.

 

[Djent]

So Japan's top 3 players were eliminated before Top 12. Meanwhile, Komorikiri, Choco, and Kirihara are still in winners, and 9B just eliminated Vinnie to qualify for Top 8 in losers.

...Japan.
Also, the 9B believers were right and I was wrong.

 

[Spinosaurus]

9B's Ryu is looking mad sexy here. Respect the satsui no hado shoryus.

 

[Jehtt]

Where exactly is the sweet spot of Ryu's spike anyway? He hit him with dair twice in that set but it only spiked him once.