Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[RedBeefBaron]

It's fine to argue that Rosalina is more difficult than some people think, but I don't think her difficulty is the reason she's not as popular as others.

Many people think she's really boring to play and watch so they stay away from her, she also comes off like a magical Disney princess which isn't exactly hype.

That said there are more people both playing as her and doing well than at least half the cast easily so I'm not sure how I feel about this argument anyway.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think rosalina is quite as easy as luigi/falcon simply because her inherent playstyle isn't as quick or widely understood. Her optimal play is pretty basic though, I agree.

All the mario characters aside from peach are very simple though, and I'm almost certain it's a design choice.

At the end of the day, while irksome simplicity isn't the core issue. It's risk/reward, and simple things tend to have very little risk.

Bowser Jr.?

I think y'all are looking at different definitions of "play" in the statement "easy to play".
Rosalina does not have an extremely high mechanical requirement to reach a basic level of understanding the character. I don't like to compare apples and oranges, but this is Melee Fox and Jigglypuff all over to me again. Yeah, it requires more mechanics to play Fox rather than Jiggs. But being on this forum, discussing the characters, we should all agree that even on a regional level, the mechanical skill of the players should far surpass any "mechanical skill requirement" of the game. Winning a tournament as Rosa is not easier than winning a tournament with Sheik, Diddy or whatever else we can think of, and if it were, we would actually see it happen.

Similarly, I agree that Rosalina doesn't require much tech skill, and Luma is certainly easier to use than most puppets. But you're still managing two entities at once, which IMO makes her fundamentals at least a little more complex than the norm by default, unless you're literally just mashing buttons I guess. Then you get into untethered Luma shenanigans...

 

[DunnoBro]

Bowser Jr.?

Forgot about him. Too many mario chars lol

 

[Zelder]

Lucas-Lucario are this game's Strider-Doom from MvC2.

 

[wedl!!]

Kind of late to the discussion, but it's a but dubious to say that Ike is top 15 when there are quite a few characters who'd be put there before him by most people.

are all better. /are around equal to him.

Lucas-Lucario are this game's Strider-Doom from MvC2.

If that's true, then Sheik+GnW are this game's Zero May Cry.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd put Peach below him for sure. She's starting to get results yes, but Ike still has them over her. ROB without a doubt as well.

Don't really have any idea where I'd place Villager in a non-custom environment. Yoshi/Pit/Pac-Man are all arguable either way.

He could scrape into top 15. Or he could wreck shop at BH5 and/or get more buffs on the 30th at which point I'll be fairly comfortable claiming he's top 15, lol

 

[teddystalin]

I'd put Peach below him for sure. She's starting to get results yes, but Ike still has them over her.

Between Umeki, Kie, and SlayerZ, Peach has a trio of mains with results that equal if not exceed those of Ryo, Ryuga, and SM.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Villager's weird. He's good and well balanced but it's hard to say where he's supposed to go. I'd argue that the only top tier character he really has a problem with is Rosalina and maybe Sonic but, without customs, he's probably going to be a character that will get worse over time. I personally feel the same way about Yoshi, Mario, and Luigi too and don't think they'll get much better than they are right now.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

DKwill won Nebulous NYC Prime Tournament Series #6 with coming from the winners bracket against dekillsage making a solid 3-1 in grand finals , third is Dill with and number 4 is john Numbers with

thoughts?

Any videos? John Numbers and Twerk are the best WFTs in North America but there aren't any videos of John Numbers' WFT customs-off.

Also, why are so many Sheik players using/switching to Fox? Here in Texas we have Karna, a very good Sheik player who has Fox in his arsenal. Over in Japan they have Nietono using Fox as well as Yui (though Yui originally mained Fox, has since Brawl). And now Dill? Which matchups are covered by Fox that Sheik can't handle? Samus (not implying Samus beats Sheik at all, but that it's an example of an MU in which Fox does much better)?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good question, Fox doesn't really do better than Sheik in a lot of matchups. Then again, Nietono hasn't been sticking to Fox while still using Sheik so we'll see how that turns out.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Between Umeki, Kie, and SlayerZ, Peach has a trio of mains with results that equal if not exceed those of Ryo, Ryuga, and SM.

How many games off of Ally/M2K/Static Manny/VoiD level players have they taken off? Ryo basically owns Florida now and wins pretty much any tournament he touches there not just the Gainsville ones. Ryuga got to last hit 2/3 games in his set against Zero.

As I said, Peach is starting to get results yes. She's not there yet though.

I was also only counting NA results because Ike doesn't exist in Japan. We trade Japanese results for more buffs. (I'm assuming Umeki is Japanese, fairly sure I remember that name showing up there).

 

[Fatmanonice]

People are probably switching over to Fox because there's a big chance that Sheik's going to be nerfed in future updates and he's the closest character down the line that has the most similar playstyle to her aside from ZSS. If Sheik and/or ZSS is nerfed again, I could see Fox and Falcon seeing a surge in popularity.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How many games off of Ally/M2K/Static Manny/VoiD level players have they taken off?

SlayerZ has beaten ESAM and Umeki has Nietono under his belt.

 

[teddystalin]

How many games off of Ally/M2K/Static Manny/VoiD level players have they taken off? Ryo basically owns Florida now and wins pretty much any tournament he touches there not just the Gainsville ones. Ryuga got to last hit 2/3 games in his set against Zero.

As I said, Peach is starting to get results yes. She's not there yet though.

I was also only counting NA results because Ike doesn't exist in Japan. We trade Japanese results for more buffs. (I'm assuming Umeki is Japanese, fairly sure I remember that name showing up there).

Off the top of my head, SlayerZ alone has taken sets off of Ally and ESAM in the last month. IDK about his record against VoiD, who I assume he would play fairly regularly. Regarding Umeki and Kie's results, you'd have to ask @Djent or @juddy96 for specific sets. I just know their placements are consistently good.

Also, Ryo doesn't "basically own Florida." He owns North/Central Florida - Miami is on a whole different level.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Off the top of my head, SlayerZ alone has taken sets off of Ally and ESAM in the last month. IDK about his record against VoiD, who I assume he would play fairly regularly. Regarding Umeki and Kie's results, you'd have to ask @Djent or @juddy96 for specific sets. I just know their placements are consistently good.

Also, Ryo doesn't "basically own Florida." He owns North/Central Florida - Miami is on a whole different level.

That runs into the issue of how Smashboard Tier Lists are normally created then in the past: Japanese results don't weigh in nearly as much because they tend to have slightly different rules which can effect things.

Like back in Brawl, Japanese results were certainly discussed and all. But they weren't really used for weighing in on a official tier list. At least not by most people who were part of the voting process. It was mostly NA results with a bit of EU results thrown in. Which in turn means for the metric most people would be using/would expect in a Smashboards tier list, Peach has 1 rep that "counts". Not that Umeki and Kie aren't good or anything just... different region with different rules. Like how they talk about ESAM in Japan but don't throw Pika up into top tier because nobody over there is doing the same sort of thing.

So I stand by my statement that Ike > Peach, and that Peach is getting results but isn't there yet. Because for the metric I'm using/used to, that is the case.

Is SlayerZ going to BH5?

 

[wedl!!]

Kie beat Ranai's Villager in a pretty close set in April, if that counts for anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDl01VoVtuI

 

[DanGR]

That runs into the issue of how Smashboard Tier Lists are normally created then in the past: Japanese results don't weigh in nearly as much because they tend to have slightly different rules which can effect things.

Like back in Brawl, Japanese results were certainly discussed and all. But they weren't really used for weighing in on a official tier list. At least not by most people who were part of the voting process. It was mostly NA results with a bit of EU results thrown in. Which in turn means for the metric most people would be using/would expect in a Smashboards tier list, Peach has 1 rep that "counts". Not that Umeki and Kie aren't good or anything just... different region with different rules. Like how they talk about ESAM in Japan but don't throw Pika up into top tier because nobody over there is doing the same sort of thing.

So I stand by my statement that Ike > Peach, and that Peach is getting results but isn't there yet. Because for the metric I'm using/used to, that is the case.

Is SlayerZ going to BH5?

North American rulesets tend to have slightly different rules from Japan as well. (What you said, but in reverse) Who is to say 'ours' is the more suitable default region?

 

[Illuminose]

North American rulesets tend to have slightly different rules from Japan as well. (What you said, but in reverse) Who is to say 'ours' is the more suitable default region?

but their ruleset is basically the same (assuming the 7 stage list) but -dl64 (just an interchangeable battlefield in a lot of respects though it's obviously not the same) and -duck hunt, with +1 min on the timer.

 

[ARGHETH]

North American rulesets tend to have slightly different rules from Japan as well. (What you said, but in reverse) Who is to say 'ours' is the more suitable default region?

I thought that was because most of us are in NA, pay more attention to NA results, and are more likely to go to NA tournaments. (Compared to Japan, anyways).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

North American rulesets tend to have slightly different rules from Japan as well. (What you said, but in reverse) Who is to say 'ours' is the more suitable default region?

Because I'm living in NA, the majority of this site is in NA, the majority of the recorded results on this site are from NA, and the majority of the people who will have a hand making the tier list (and the list in the OP) are from NA. A somewhat distant second place is EU. Japan probably has more results posted here than Australia and SA because its interesting to see how they play, but there are probably more users here from each of those two regions than people from Japan. This is a NA focused site, the majority of things (and certainly anything meant for a wider audience like an official tier list) will be focused on NA and our understanding of the characters. Japan can and does make their own listed based on their own understanding of the characters.

Small things like 1 minute matter. Just ask Wario.

 

[Ffamran]

The irony when Smashboards used to be called Smash World Forums. Its origin is in the States, but it's open to all. Just people tend to segregate from each other.

 

[Dre89]

If you think X is an easy, BS character then please. Go win a tourney with that character. It can't be that hard.
Now can we move away from this cheese discussion? It's getting us nowhere.

God this is such a stupid thing to say

Guess some people don't understand the difference between 'easier relative to the most of the cast' and 'easy to win with at a high level'. People just assume that other people realise that they're talking about the former. But I guess you really have to lay it out to some people...

 

[PK Gaming]

I've said this before, but Dath's Robin is the real deal. His set against DJ_Jack (Mario) was pretty damn good, considering the matchup (1:53:05)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

God this is such a stupid thing to say

Right back at ya Dre

 

[C0rvus]

God this is such a stupid thing to say

Guess some people don't understand the difference between 'easier relative to the most of the cast' and 'easy to win with at a high level'. People just assume that other people realise that they're talking about the former. But I guess you really have to lay it out to some people...

Discussion on ease of use is kind of a waste of time when this thread is for competitive Smash. Things like "cheese" are simply perception, and are mostly irrelevant in high level play. Relative character strength is what matters, and more often than not coincides with top level results. Nobody should bother fighting over who their kid brother could do well with against his friends.

 

[Megamang]

I think people want to know if she is "easy to use" because that is indicative of her ceiling. If she isn't going to be any different in a year, she will probably drop. People don't want to invest in an obscure character if she doesn't have a future.


Conversely, if she is easy, she might be a good choice for a player entering the scene who wants results quickly. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win, after all.

 

[HFlash]

If Sheik and/or ZSS is nerfed again, I could see Fox and Falcon seeing a surge in popularity.

Falcon will always be extremely popular regardless of what happens patch wise. Unless, somehow, Falcon's manliness gets nerfed. All jokes aside, ultimately, if Shiek gets nerfed, a big impact on who will be picked up in place of Shiek will be whatever character the competitive community perceives as the best (in other words, who Zero will main next).

Edit: Also with all of this talk about top characters being easy to use, why hasn't anyone mentioned or?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falcon will always be extremely popular regardless of what happens patch wise. Unless, somehow, Falcon's manliness gets nerfed. All jokes aside, ultimately, if Shiek gets nerfed, a big impact on who will be picked up in place of Shiek will be whatever character the competitive community perceives as the best (in other words, who Zero will main next).

My guess is that he would either go back to Diddy (probably would at least short term while figuring out who to pick up next), and then either Luigi or Ryu. If Luigi he'll figure out its a mistake shortly afterwards. He doesn't seem like a Pika or Rosalina guy to me and he already uses Falcon for fun a bit.

 

[David Viran]

My guess is that he would either go back to Diddy (probably would at least short term while figuring out who to pick up next), and then either Luigi or Ryu. If Luigi he'll figure out its a mistake shortly afterwards. He doesn't seem like a Pika or Rosalina guy to me and he already uses Falcon for fun a bit.

He said on his stream a while ago that if sheik gets a heavy nerf or something he might use zss or pika. Idk what he thinks now.

 

[Megamang]

Diddy would be awesome because I wanna see m2k dong v zero mini dong. Also because I get rekt locally by diddy and I wanna see how the MU plays out at high level with ESAM.

But i imagine his choice will be influenced by whatever happens on the 30th. If shiek gets neutered id expect diddy at BH5

 

[HFlash]

For sure Diddy for BH5 since that's who he knows. But honestly, when Diddy got nerfed, the perceived next strongest character was Shiek so he picked her up. History tends to repeat itself, so that would suggest he'd start using ZSS or Pika (characters who he has said himself are probably the ones right behind Shiek atm. Nidtendofreak Why Luigi and Ryu?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He said on his stream a while ago that if sheik gets a heavy nerf or something he might use zss or pika. Idk what he thinks now.

I forgot ZSS existed

Ya, that's the most likely pick to me imo.

Luigi and Ryu were there because a) he seemed to be hyping them up and b) he seems to enjoy characters who can very easily combo into super powerful KOing moves with no real effort. To me, Pika doesn't really have that. Not in the same sort of way. ZSS does though.

 

[HFlash]

Well, Zero (as does the meta) tend to favor very mobile characters. So honestly, I don't see him picking up either because of that. Furthermore, ZSS is probably the most likely candidate as out of the top tiers in the game, ZSS probably share the most similarities with Shiek/Diddy. So I wouldn't be surprised to ZSS becomes the new Queen of Smash. We'll know for sure come 9 days.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I'd put Peach below him for sure. She's starting to get results yes, but Ike still has them over her. ROB without a doubt as well.

Don't really have any idea where I'd place Villager in a non-custom environment. Yoshi/Pit/Pac-Man are all arguable either way.

He could scrape into top 15. Or he could wreck shop at BH5 and/or get more buffs on the 30th at which point I'll be fairly comfortable claiming he's top 15, lol

Just saying gets better results in stacked tournaments (she also won a SoCal regional tournament that had Void, Ally, Mr.Concon,and Larry Lurr) and placed top 8 in a national while also getting 17th with llod at Super Smash Con not to mention she gets results in Japan, ; mains so far only have their sets to justify his "High Tier" placement but have no significant results in nationals to back up his upper tier position.which can may indicate that Ike overall have a harder time against the top/high or cast in general then Peach does. Until a Ike main can get reasonable results in major tournies then I can't realistically say he's a high tier character since other high tiers; overall places higher then and even(yes, Yoshi have reached top 16 in a national) not to mention some other characters that's not even considered high tier have broken into top 32. I do believe Ike is around the top of middle tier but to claim he's high tier is exactly a stretch since the other high tiers places better then Ike to a degree where I can't even call him bottom of high tier.Who knows maybe Ike will place better in the tournies to come. Hopefully he places well at Big House 5 so he can at least somewhat compete with the other high tiers in terms of placements.

 

[san.]

Ike has just gotten good. Even CEO where Ryo underperformed had a watered down Ike compared to now. No top Ikes have really attended ANY national besides CEO lol, so of course his national placements are going to suffer if Ryuga and Ryo aren't going anywhere. Even so, I don't care about his tier position,but rather his tools. He has plenty of good ones, but quite a few bad ones as well.

 

[Jucchan]

Just a reminder that Umebura F.A.T. Day 2 with crew battles and the final singles bracket will start in approx. 30 min.
http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Ike has just gotten good. Even CEO where Ryo underperformed had a watered down Ike compared to now. No top Ikes have really attended ANY national besides CEO lol, so of course his national placements are going to suffer if Ryuga and Ryo aren't going anywhere. Even so, I don't care about his tier position,but rather his tools. He has plenty of good ones, but quite a few bad ones as well.

Yes which is why I don't understand why people thought / think he's high tier for a decent amount of time. It's better to just say In Theory Ike can potentially be a high tier character then for people to just outright say he's a high tier character. What's rather interesting is that random characters (with random / unheard / not well recognized people) that aren't close to high tier have a reached top 32. Now this could mean has a rather poor representation or that the random Ikes that do appear get eliminated early on which very well mean could categorized into the "really hard to use" category but doesn't get rewarded as much as the others like . I wasn't calling out Ike mains just saying how I feel , Some people do care about a character tier position when picking a main which is why I chipped in on my view of Ike in the current meta which I feel is reasonable.

 

[san.]

Only 1 or 2 people ever said Ike was high tier. I believe I stated that I can see him as bottom of high tier at most, but never really specified where I believe he is right now. Ryo and Ryuga still go to plenty of tournaments and perform well regionally, just that out of the two, only Ryo has gone to one, which was CEO and he didn't yet acclimate himself to 1.0.8's buffs. Can't do well at a national if you've barely gone to one, and 1.1.0's boost to uair is nothing to scoff at. One tournament also isn't the end all be all (BH5), otherwise Pikachu would be much lower due to a random under-performance like what happened at Paragon.

Smash has historically had terrible Ike players. If they aren't high level+, they will likely be bottom of the barrel in terms of difficulty to deal with.

 

[L9999]

Falcon will always be extremely popular regardless of what happens patch wise. Unless, somehow, Falcon's manliness gets nerfed. All jokes aside, ultimately, if Shiek gets nerfed, a big impact on who will be picked up in place of Shiek will be whatever character the competitive community perceives as the best (in other words, who Zero will main next).

Edit: Also with all of this talk about top characters being easy to use, why hasn't anyone mentioned or?

I think nobody mentions Ness and Luigi because they have really ****** matchups that prevent them from winning tournaments as easily as Sheik or Rosaluma can. Ness can reach top 8 without a doubt, but at the top there is usually a Rosaluma around and it's over for Ness. It's so sad it has become a recurring joke. A big tournament happens, Shaky goes and gets to top 8 only to be eliminated by Dabuz. With Luigi he has a terrible matchup with Sheik, and she is everywhere, and he also gets wrecked by Rosaluma. And any decent zoner can get him eliminated as well.

 

[HFlash]

I think nobody mentions Ness and Luigi because they have really ****** matchups that prevent them from winning tournaments as easily as Sheik or Rosaluma can. Ness can reach top 8 without a doubt, but at the top there is usually a Rosaluma around and it's over for Ness. It's so sad it has become a recurring joke. A big tournament happens, Shaky goes and gets to top 8 only to be eliminated by Dabuz. With Luigi he has a terrible matchup with Sheik, and she is everywhere, and he also gets wrecked by Rosaluma. And any decent zoner can get him eliminated as well.

Those characters do get hard countered vs some characters, so why not develop other characters to play specifically against the counters? Shaky has a pretty good Pikachu to deal with Rosalinas for example. As far as Shiek is concerned, alot of characters have a negative MU on Shiek (including Ness) so the same argument doesn't apply quite as much to him.