Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

https://youtu.be/ajyGDjt3XvY

Ryuga vs Zero

You'll all cry at one particular moment in the first game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

https://youtu.be/ajyGDjt3XvY

Ryuga vs Zero

You'll all cry at one particular moment in the first game.

I talked about it...should a linked it tho. Like I said earlier tho, he lost it in game 1 and 2 instead of ZeRo winning it. Game 3 was download complete.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The biggest appeal of Smash 4 is the fact that it is by far the most balanced Smash game in the series, so why not Ganon? If Ike has a shot vs Zero's Shiek, why can't a really good Ganon do the same?

Because Sakurai actually allows Ike to use his giant sword to outrange Sheik's stupid disjointed Fair. Also Ike is a top 15 character in this game, while Ganon's bottom 15. Only way for Ganon to actually win against a Sheik is by landing a hard read Fsmash or something since he has no reliable way to get anything going against her.

 

[teddystalin]

Also Ike is a top 15 character in this game, while Ganon's bottom 15.

...You could probably count the number of competitive Ike mains who think Ike is top 15 on one hand. Actually, zero hands. Why do you say that like it's gospel? Which 9 of the 24 notable threats in the OP is Ike better than? Seems to me like he's still trying to crack top 20 before he moves to concrete high tier territory.

 

[Charoite]

DKwill won Nebulous NYC Prime Tournament Series #6 with coming from the winners bracket against dekillsage making a solid 3-1 in grand finals , third is Dill with and number 4 is john Numbers with

thoughts?

 

[Fuzzio]

Ike is definitely frightening. His aerials come out deceptively quick and have a lot of power behind them. You need to know Ike's timings well or you should be playing defensively to avoid an unexpected early KO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

...You could probably count the number of competitive Ike mains who think Ike is top 15 on one hand. Actually, zero hands. Why do you say that like it's gospel? Which 9 of the 24 notable threats in the OP is Ike better than? Seems to me like he's still trying to crack top 20 before he moves to concrete high tier territory.

Nope, I know of one through the Ike Skype who thinks Ike is Top 10. And they are one of the good Ikes.

He is undoubtably high tier at this point. The argument is simply where in high tier he falls.

 

[teddystalin]

Nope, I know of one through the Ike Skype who thinks Ike is Top 10. And they are one of the good Ikes.

He is undoubtably high tier at this point. The argument is simply where in high tier he falls.

I obviously want to believe it, but as I am not one of the good Ikes, seeing is believing. Maybe after BH5.

(For reference, I do think he's top 20, but only barely.)

 

[Teshie U]

DKwill won Nebulous NYC Prime Tournament Series #6 with coming from the winners bracket against dekillsage making a solid 3-1 in grand finals , third is Dill with and number 4 is john Numbers with

thoughts?

DKwill is alot better than all of those players.


A characters with a recovery as limited as Ganon doesn't have a chance against sheik. You need mixups and a decent hitbox sheik has to respect.

 

[Illuminose]

DKwill is alot better than all of those players.


A characters with a recovery as limited as Ganon doesn't have a chance against sheik. You need mixups and a decent hitbox sheik has to respect.

keep in mind that dekillsage beat dkwill at summer jam (though that was with fox and not sheik).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

keep in mind that dekillsage beat dkwill at summer jam (though that was with fox and not sheik).

Was this pre patch? Because fox ***** DK before he had grab reward.

 

[Ffamran]

Wario's one scary edgeguarder and all he has to do is get hit while doing a Dair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt9qUWwUHMI#t=8m41s. This all happens like seconds after the Falco lost his first stock from a Waft. Also, Falco's recovery with Fire Bird sucks. Yes, I know you shouldn't be using Fire Bird or Fire Fox that close up, but it still sucks. Speaking of which, all players who see a Fox or Falco using Fire Fox or Fire Bird, hit them. Seriously, even if Fire Fox can kill, it's not going to kill that easily when it doesn't launch until frame 43. Whether or not you have a good kill option doesn't matter since it's free damage. Teach them a lesson on relying on Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm so freaking much. ZSS players should be thrilled for an easy Flip Jump spike and to all Sheik players out there who don't frequent the Sheik boards, one, frequent your boards and two, your Dair is much more useful against them than in pretty much any MU: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-tech-flame-cancel-updated.403882/.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Here's an example of why the metagame isn't overcentralized. Check out this 90-man tournament that happened in Minnesota yesterday: http://smashboards.com/rankings/go4-smash-weekly-sm4sh-9-19-top-32.8893/event

Top 8 featured a Ganon/Falco, two Kirbys, a Megaman, Mac, Robin, Rob, and a Link/Samus.

Just after the local sheik moved out of state

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here's an example of why the metagame isn't overcentralized. Check out this 90-man tournament that happened in Minnesota yesterday: http://smashboards.com/rankings/go4-smash-weekly-sm4sh-9-19-top-32.8893/event

Top 8 featured a Ganon/Falco, two Kirbys, a Megaman, Mac, Robin, Rob, and a Link/Samus.

Just after the local sheik moved out of state

Minnesota's not really indicative of the top of the meta though. At smaller/lower level tourneys tiers don't really matter much at all, but really come into play when you get into the stronger regionals/nationals. GanontheBeast is awesome though.

 

[Ffamran]

Here's an example of why the metagame isn't overcentralized. Check out this 90-man tournament that happened in Minnesota yesterday: http://smashboards.com/rankings/go4-smash-weekly-sm4sh-9-19-top-32.8893/event

Top 8 featured a Ganon/Falco, two Kirbys, a Megaman, Mac, Robin, Rob, and a Link/Samus.

Just after the local sheik moved out of state

Felton who's apparently a Sheik and Meta Knight main? MN's PR 5 months ago was this and from here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/.

Spoiler

Updated: 4/28/15
Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MNSmash/
Graphic: http://smashboards.com/attachments/fb_img_1430921294256-jpg.50478/

1. Ganon the Beast
2. Triple R
3. Dexter
4. neomadgic
5. Prince Kirby
6. Marilink
7. Jaaahsh
8. Mr. Mayor
9. Felton
10. techtonio

Still pretty diverse, but I don't know anything about MN's scene, so there's that.

 

[Dre89]

Rosalina is probably the easiest top tier to play aside from Luigi.

People talk about controlling Luma, but Rosa herself never does any complex movement because of Luma. Deciding where to put Luma and what attack to use is more basic than having to constantly use advanced movement and spacing.

A lot of Rosa's strength is passive. Luma forces approaches and invalidates so many options simply by existing.

Seriously watch Dabuz against any other high level player and watch the difference in the movement and spacing. Having a lot of tech doesn't change the fact that she's very binary in what she does

 

[Ffamran]

Rosalina still has access to "Lunar Landing" as a technique and she still needs to manipulate and position Luma for spacing and zoning purposes or to setup hellish edgeguards. Spacing with Luma would be like spacing with practically any character except this time, you're also spacing with something that's not physically attached to you. Emotionally, the burden of having star children dying because of you will later on wear on your conscience.

Technically, in no matchup do you actually have to approach. I still stand by that idea, but it's one boring as hell idea since you could literally have a staring contest waiting for something to happen. Even if you have a good projectile or one that can cover the entire stage, you don't have to do jack. Here's the thing, that's not only incredibly boring, but incredibly time consuming since you'd be waiting 6 minutes just for one, single action. Luma doesn't force approaches; Luma punishes button-pressing since unlike a normal character, Luma's more like a living object standing in your way. Rosalina & Luma don't have to do anything and neither do you. It's when you commit that she and Luma can punish your options and take you for a one-way trip to space. You approach because you try to find a weak spot in Rosalina's defense. If Rosalina approaches, then she's got a wall in front of her that can still punish button pressing since you decided it was a good idea to attack Rosalina leading to Luma smacking your face for daring to lay a hand on their mommy. In this case, you're not approaching because you're scared of her defensive options.

 

[Steelballray]

Rosalina still has access to "Lunar Landing" as a technique and she still needs to manipulate and position Luma for spacing and zoning purposes or to setup hellish edgeguards. Spacing with Luma would be like spacing with practically any character except this time, you're also spacing with something that's not physically attached to you. Emotionally, the burden of having star children dying because of you will later on wear on your conscience.

Technically, in no matchup do you actually have to approach. I still stand by that idea, but it's one boring as hell idea since you could literally have a staring contest waiting for something to happen. Even if you have a good projectile or one that can cover the entire stage, you don't have to do jack. Here's the thing, that's not only incredibly boring, but incredibly time consuming since you'd be waiting 6 minutes just for one, single action. Luma doesn't force approaches; Luma punishes button-pressing since unlike a normal character, Luma's more like a living object standing in your way. Rosalina & Luma don't have to do anything and neither do you. It's when you commit that she and Luma can punish your options and take you for a one-way trip to space. You approach because you try to find a weak spot in Rosalina's defense. If Rosalina approaches, then she's got a wall in front of her that can still punish button pressing since you decided it was a good idea to attack Rosalina leading to Luma smacking your face for daring to lay a hand on their mommy. In this case, you're not approaching because you're scared of her defensive options.

The best player in the country plays a mean Rosalina and seeing him play I'm 100% certain that whoever have the gale to set Luma mid stage and roll around her has no idea how the character should be played. You're totally right but the worst part the one you missed. Rosalina can approach. Her style is like a walking fortress. Talking small steps while jabbing and using starbits till you end up at the very edge of the stage with literally no option but to get hit. Rosalina is fear and at times I think she is more worthy of getting hit with the nerf hammer than Sheik.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Rosalina is probably the easiest top tier to play aside from Luigi.

People talk about controlling Luma, but Rosa herself never does any complex movement because of Luma. Deciding where to put Luma and what attack to use is more basic than having to constantly use advanced movement and spacing.

A lot of Rosa's strength is passive. Luma forces approaches and invalidates so many options simply by existing.

Seriously watch Dabuz against any other high level player and watch the difference in the movement and spacing. Having a lot of tech doesn't change the fact that she's very binary in what she does

Yup that's why you see this global saturation of Rosalinas...wait that isn't happening? You and other people with this logic have little to idea as to what you're talking about. Please start winning tournaments with Rosalina and steal everyone's lunch money.

Also the skill gap between dkwill dill john numbers and dekillsage is minimal at best. They're all on the same level and this week dkwill got tge best of them. Pretty sure dill could've won if he went Sheik but he's using fkx for some reason

 

[Djent]

Well 9B is certainly breaking out in doubles, it'd be neat if he proves me wrong in singles too.

Oh, and Lucario + Lucario mayhem we all know and love is back in play as well. Seriously, if you're not watching Umebura you're screwing up.

EDIT: Lean + Songun Pika/GnW is absurd too.

 

[TriTails]

Why in the flying **** people are still saying Rosalina is easy.

 

[PUK]

Why in the flying **** people are still saying Rosalina is easy.

Because she's easy to pick. At a low level her cheeses are really good, like falcon or sheik or luigi ones.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Because she's easy to pick. At a low level her cheeses are really good, like falcon or sheik or luigi ones.

Her cheese? Low level rosalinas are bad. Can you guys really stol it with this non sense. It's nit even like you guys have a basis for this stuff. It's just a straight bias against Rosalina.

 

[PUK]

Her cheese? Low level rosalinas are bad. Can you guys really stol it with this non sense. It's nit even like you guys have a basis for this stuff. It's just a straight bias against Rosalina.

Don't talk about bias that's ridiculous. Rosalina is indeed hard to play against a high level opponent, but at low level you can win by using cheese you see on stream, like jabbing, spamming usmash and uair, taping A button when grabbed etc... It gives the impression the character is simple.
Mario, luigi, falcon, sheik, they have these type of things you can reproduce easily. Fox used to have a cheese as well that rekted low level player. ROB Dthrow to uair, the old hoo haa was cheese.
Now character like the new fox, zss, MK have very few cheeses. The look harder to play, even if they are not harder to master.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Don't talk about bias that's ridiculous. Rosalina is indeed hard to play against a high level opponent, but at low level you can win by using cheese you see on stream, like jabbing, spamming usmash and uair, taping A button when grabbed etc... It gives the impression the character is simple.
Mario, luigi, falcon, sheik, they have these type of things you can reproduce easily. Fox used to have a cheese as well that rekted low level player. ROB Dthrow to uair, the old hoo haa was cheese.
Now character like the new fox, zss, MK have very few cheeses. The look harder to play, even if they are not harder to master.

That's not cheese lol that's jusy bad play. It's not even effective.

 

[Dre89]

Yup that's why you see this global saturation of Rosalinas...wait that isn't happening? You and other people with this logic have little to idea as to what you're talking about. Please start winning tournaments with Rosalina and steal everyone's lunch money.

Also the skill gap between dkwill dill john numbers and dekillsage is minimal at best. They're all on the same level and this week dkwill got tge best of them. Pretty sure dill could've won if he went Sheik but he's using fkx for some reason

I didn't say she was easy, I said she's easier relative to most of top tier. I specifically worded it like that because someone like you always resorts to that straw-man.

Rosa, like any other character, requires fundamentals. That's why some random like me isn't going to place with her. However, Rosa does mostly basic commands, whilst her opponent has to do much more complex stuff due to Luma simply existing.

She's probably not very popular because a lot of people don't find her playstyle very fun. She can also be very boring to watch. That's the thing, complex characters traditionally have been considered fun to watch, because y'know, they're fast and have more ways they can apply their options.

Just because she has a lot of tech doesn't mean she isn't binary in what she does

 

[Ghostbone]

Now character like the new fox, zss, MK have very few cheeses. The look harder to play, even if they are not harder to master.

MK is dash attack cheese: the character
lmao

The way you describe low level Rosalina is the way you can describe any character at low level, she's not specifically better at just spamming jab or down-smash than other characters tbh, and what does that even matter anyway.

 

[Nobie]

We need to make a distinction between a character that's difficult to use strategically and difficult to use technically. Having fewer "advanced techniques" doesn't mean that they're easy to use. C'mon, I thought Smash 4 folks would not fall into this trap.

As for a character who's both...Ryu!

 

[Routa]

There are characters that require good fundamentals (Ike and Marth) and then there are characters that require high tech skill (no character comes to my mind :S) and then there are the random stuff (Wario).

In my eyes Rosa is more fundamental character than tech character. She is easy-ish to pick up if you compare her to Pac Man or Mega Man. Ofc she ain't Falcon easy, but still rather easy to pick up (like others said compared to most of the cast). But remember easy to pick up =/= easy to use.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Now character like the new fox, zss, MK have very few cheeses. The look harder to play, even if they are not harder to master.

Fox is extremely cheesy dude. Stuff like nair, bair, uair, utilt and dash attack are just straight up bollox tbh. Blatantly broken moves flowing seamlessly into each other and back, very little precision or skill required [except for like spaced bair which still isn't very hard to do]. Why do you think this character has so much rep and is placing so well so consistently?

 

[PUK]

You all should play FG a little more to understand why opinion as the way they are. Dash attack the character doesn't mean anything if you can't chain uair correctly, you need more than knowing the cheese to use it. Hold A at the ledge at contrary is really good because ledge drop aerial are never used at low level and it's basically the simpliest thing to do. Even at high level it still works.
On this topic we usually talk about competitive metagame. We gladly accept the dogma that high level play is hard, that not anyone can do incredible stuff like Zero, Nairo and ramin do, that the problem of the dominance of some character come from the players. Wtf, diddy tried to teach us dumb thing can be really strong and we learned the lesson just to forget it when diddy fell, while low level player see something on stream, copy it, upload a video on youtube and then every low level player who see this video do the same thing because it works. And when you play the top tier, it works at every level until you're ass is beaten at a local, meaning opinions like "X is easy to play" will developp.
We have more practice than these player, we saw or experimented the flaws of these cheeses, we forget how we used to play before, we understood that sheik stuff don't win tourney at high level, that something else is needed and everyone here is wondering why Zero's video are so shared when all he's usually doing is being Captain obvious.
And when i'm trying to explain why the majority of the smash community think something we don't agree with i have response like

That's not cheese lol that's jusy bad play. It's not even effective.

MK is dash attack cheese: the character
lmao

The way you describe low level Rosalina is the way you can describe any character at low level, she's not specifically better at just spamming jab or down-smash than other characters tbh, and what does that even matter anyway.

Her cheese? Low level rosalinas are bad. Can you guys really stol it with this non sense. It's nit even like you guys have a basis for this stuff. It's just a straight bias against Rosalina.

while i'm pretty sure that if i take the first 100 pages of the old competitive thread i will read things like" Rosalina OP she can spam usmash it's so god damned safe" or "Zelda's OP she can kill u with a frame 7 move". Low to mid level players never get out of this discovery time because they don't really care or because they just get the game or whatever, and the little tricks that can give them the victory (aka the cheeses) are perceived stronger than they actually are.

 

[DanGR]

If you're not watching Umebura F.A.T. doubles right now, you're missing out! Lucas/Lucario anubis+healing strat vs Ally/Nairo.
http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you're not watching Umebura F.A.T. doubles right now, you're missing out! Lucas/Lucario anubis+healing strat vs Ally/Nairo.
http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Luca² team already rocked Japan in Brawl. ****'s hilarious.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

If you think X is an easy, BS character then please. Go win a tourney with that character. It can't be that hard.
Now can we move away from this cheese discussion? It's getting us nowhere.

 

[Mario766]

People actually complain about Zelda killing early with a combo that's hard to set-up and can be DI'd out of?

They must get super salty when they die to Ike's frame 7 huge back air off a simple air dodge read at 100.

 

[Sinister Slush]

My god, the Lucas/Lucario team still successful even in Smash 4?
It never ends.

 

[Blobface]

Calling a character easy to play is the equivalent of saying "you are a bad person because you play this character", and contributes absolutely nothing to the thread as a whole.

Also, if Lucas-Lucario is so good, why have we never seen Ness-Lucario? Is there something really important I'm missing?

 

[Greward]

Also, if Lucas-Lucario is so good, why have we never seen Ness-Lucario? Is there something really important I'm missing?

Lucas heals way more than Ness from PK Magnet, that's why.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't think rosalina is quite as easy as luigi/falcon simply because her inherent playstyle isn't as quick or widely understood. Her optimal play is pretty basic though, I agree.

All the mario characters aside from peach are very simple though, and I'm almost certain it's a design choice.

At the end of the day, while irksome simplicity isn't the core issue. It's risk/reward, and simple things tend to have very little risk.

 

[Konneh]

I think y'all are looking at different definitions of "play" in the statement "easy to play".
Rosalina does not have an extremely high mechanical requirement to reach a basic level of understanding the character. I don't like to compare apples and oranges, but this is Melee Fox and Jigglypuff all over to me again. Yeah, it requires more mechanics to play Fox rather than Jiggs. But being on this forum, discussing the characters, we should all agree that even on a regional level, the mechanical skill of the players should far surpass any "mechanical skill requirement" of the game. Winning a tournament as Rosa is not easier than winning a tournament with Sheik, Diddy or whatever else we can think of, and if it were, we would actually see it happen.