Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Patriot Duck]

I'm watching Smash Conference 41 right now and it's starting to annoy me how the community can't seem to accept defensive play as a valid strategy. I'm talking about the set between Saj and Dolo specifically. The commentators would not let up on the complaining and the chat was filled with Residentsleepers.

Defensive play can be interesting if you take the time to examine the intricacies of spacing and footsies of the game, but I guess the average stream monster isn't looking to have an analytic mindset when watching Smash.

 

[Vipermoon]

I thought about that Ganondorf landing Fair proposition about a weak landing hitbox to go with the move like he had in a previous Zelda game. Remember that landing hitboxes automatically hitlag land/frame cancel/frame sync. Unless it had a 0.0 hitlag modifier his Fair would be TOO safe. Overtuned to the point of Ganon playstyle consisting of mostly SHFF Fair. Good idea otherwise but nah.

 

[HFlash]

I'm watching Smash Conference 41 right now and it's starting to annoy me how the community can't seem to accept defensive play as a valid strategy. I'm talking about the set between Saj and Dolo specifically. The commentators would not let up on the complaining and the chat was filled with Residentsleepers.

Defensive play can be interesting if you take the time to examine the intricacies of spacing and footsies of the game, but I guess the average stream monster isn't looking to have an analytic mindset when watching Smash.

I seriously don't understand how they could get mad at a Peach player playing defensively against Luigi.

 

[Mario766]

Florida doesn't play defensive a lot of the time. The main people at Smash Conferences are mostly pretty aggressive players with Ryo and Sol. Day plays pretty defensive but it's Lucario so people dismiss it. It's the usual people complaining that would complain if Dabuz was playing or someone that plays really slow.

 

[Browny]

The more I think about it, this game is really well balanced. I wouldn't even be able to decide on more than 3 tiers.

I think theres the obvious tournament winners in
The occasional threats in
And literally everyone else, with the right representation I wouldnt even be able to split the remaining characters into 2 tiers since one single player on this earth could do enough to move a perceived 'bottom' tier character up one. Competitive smash 4 is still far too niche, new and subject to character bias to accurately deal with unpopular characters.

 

[Patriot Duck]

I seriously don't understand how they could get mad at a Peach player playing defensively against Luigi.

Agreed. If Saj had played aggressively, he most certainly would have lost.

I don't think the general community has entirely come to terms with the fact that Luigi counters aggressive play; either that or they're simply not willing to play defensively. It's because of this that Luigi is so prominent in mid-high level play.

 

[Charoite]

Agreed. If Saj had played aggressively, he most certainly would have lost.

I don't think the community as a whole has entirely come to terms with the fact that Luigi counters aggressive play; it's either that or they're simply not willing to play defensively. It's because of this that Luigi is so prominent in mid-high level play.

And yes stream monster hate that style of gameplay because is not "hype", but i cant really blame them, when the smash comunity basically has trying to make flashy and agressive the defacto playstyle since the beginning of competitive smash,-

Is not helping that the most lasting game in the series(of course in the competitive space) is more agressive and flashy, so is not difficult to see that you will have backlash against a different style of play, and there the fact that the sequels of melee are seeing as inferiors games....so you see this mentality being cultivated for a long time, of course this is tame compared to the brawl era, and this actitude is improving.... is in us educate the comunity that playing defensive is not bad(well for esports maybe) and can be interesting.

 

[HFlash]

Agreed. If Saj had played aggressively, he most certainly would have lost.

I don't think the general community has entirely come to terms with the fact that Luigi counters aggressive play; either that or they're simply not willing to play defensively. It's because of this that Luigi is so prominent in mid-high level play.

I would say Luigi is more of a threat in mid level play. Simply because Luigi punishes so hard with each mistake (each grab = 30% or death) and well, top level players make fewer mistakes than mid level players. Playing less aggressive means fewer spacing mistakes, hence slow, methodical gameplay is needed for the green menace.

Edit: Unless you are Shiek of course.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would say Luigi is more of a threat in mid level play. Simply because Luigi punishes so hard with each mistake (each grab = 30% or death) and well, top level players make fewer mistakes than mid level players. Playing less aggressive means fewer spacing mistakes, hence slow, methodical gameplay is needed for the green menace.

Edit: Unless you are Shiek of course.

It depends on the character you play. However luigi isn't some magical threat at mid level play.

 

[FSLink]

I'm watching Smash Conference 41 right now and it's starting to annoy me how the community can't seem to accept defensive play as a valid strategy. I'm talking about the set between Saj and Dolo specifically. The commentators would not let up on the complaining and the chat was filled with Residentsleepers.

Defensive play can be interesting if you take the time to examine the intricacies of spacing and footsies of the game, but I guess the average stream monster isn't looking to have an analytic mindset when watching Smash.

I would like to point out that this isn't just a Smash problem either, it happens in other fighting games as well.
The commentators should know better though, stream monsters will stream monster, but commentators should be able to provide good insight on what's going on even if it's not "exciting". Some of the most tense moments in fighting games can be waiting for someone to commit to going in.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would like to point out that this isn't just a Smash problem either, it happens in other fighting games as well.
The commentators should know better though, stream monsters will stream monster, but commentators should be able to provide good insight on what's going on even if it's not "exciting". Some of the most tense moments in fighting games can be waiting for someone to commit to going in.

It depends though I really enjoy high level street fighter and footsies but when I watched Ricky Ortiz vs Snake eyes it put me to sleep. It all depends and some matches don't give you much to comment on.

 

[Nobie]

I think a lot of players are traumatized by For Glory Links and their spamming (which with enough lag is legitimately frustrating), which combined with a poor understanding of the neutral game leads to people waiting for "the action" to happen without realizing that the act of footsies is action in the first place.

I also feel like maybe commentators could do more to help viewers understanding that Luigi is like a slow-moving wall of destruction like that boss in Final Fantasy IV, and that there are certain characters who are simply best foiled by playing more defensively. Luigi, Yoshi, Dedede, these are all characters that you really don't want to tango with up-close, and if more people understood this, then I think it could help.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming rebirth v is bein streamed

 

[Mario766]

If Ganon gets a shockwave hitbox on F-Air, Ike gets sword beams.

'Nuff said.

 

[TurboLink]

If Ganon gets a shockwave hitbox on F-Air, Ike gets sword beams.

'Nuff said.

What about Meta Knight? He could finally have a projectile.

 

[FullMoon]

Just to add something to the Pac-Man fruit stealing you guys were talking about, if you get the lead against Pac and steal the fruit it's really easy to camp him out because he loses his most reliable projectile and taking with Hydrant can only do so much when you're behind.

I've been playing the stalling game myself more often and I've messed with Pac-Man like that before.

 

[Zannabluke]

http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming rebirth v is bein streamed

is 3v3 still a thing?

 

[Zethoro]

To comment on defensive play, just because spectators find a playstyle uninteresting does not mean thy should hate on others for it. Some characters were made to be campy. Some were made to be agressive. Everyone has their own playstyle, and when spectating, remember it's not about you. Your opinion doesn't mean a thing so if you have something negative to say about defensive play, keep it to yourself.

Now for the reason I'm here; I feel people are really underrating Mii Gunner. Gunner has incredible spacing and while gunner's kill power is low, he/she has a lot of fast, reliable moves for killing past 120-130%. Charge Shot is nice for applying pressure just by it being in your infentory and unlike Samus, Mii Gunner's projectiles (including charge shot) are great and have INCREDIBLE priority. Flame Pillar beats out almost every projectile in the game (a notable example is WFT's Sun Salutation fully charged.), and FAir is fantastic for spacing/chip.
BAir, DSMash, USmash, DTIlt and UTilt all reliably kill after about 130% (with USMash and DSMash killing earlier), he/she has a fantastic gimp tool in NAir (hits at a low angle and has a long lasting hitbox), a solid recovery due to Gunner's ability to air stall with a reflector, gain huge bursts of horizontal momentum with FAir, and a decent up-b as a last resort (which also punishes people coming from below.)
Gunner's main flaws are his/her inability to kill very early, lack of combos (expected of a zoning character), and gimpable Up-B (thus why it is usually a last resort.)
Mii gunner is the ultimate zoner and most people treat gunner as the worst (or bottom 5) characters in the game. It makes me sad.

 

[Nobie]

So I finally got around to watching that Peach vs. Luigi matchup. THAT'S what people were complaining about?! It's not like either character was running away or camping or anything remotely like that. They were just constantly jockeying for an advantageous position. This isn't Sonic spinning in place, it's Peach using what Peach does best to fight what Luigi does worst.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sometimes I wonder if the less hardcore fans look at us and think we're scrubs for complaining about this stuff... Like, this is for Glory scrub level stuff.

 

[Teshie U]

Why are people defending that match? It wasn't remotely high level. They weren't baiting and punishing, or abusing their lead. It was just 2 players camping so hard they couldn't think straight anymore. They might have just been trolling. Zoning/camping only gets boring when 1 or both players are very very bad at punishing anything. Then there is no strategy to appreciate. Comparing that to national level players like Dabuz, Static or Abadango cheapens slow methodical play.

Zethoro I'd say Gunner really struggles with anti-air as well. Aside from Nair, all of his aerials hit in very narrow straight lines. This really becomes a problem because if you compare Gunner to Megaman or Villager (mobile zoners), they all have pretty dominant horizontal moves that make their opponent's want to jump. Once people begin to approach from above, Megaman has a wide Uair, multi hit nair/bair and item tossing while villager has lingering uair/dair/nair.

This also makes getting kills very hard as finishing someone you launched into the air with a grab or fair becomes very difficult if they hang in your dead zones. Villagers and Megaman do a much better job killing you while keeping you out.

Gunner does have some combos comparable to your typical low percent setup though. Fair combos into things at low percents (charge shot even). Its just killing without a major punish/read that gunner struggles with.

 

[Charoite]

Sometimes I wonder if the less hardcore fans look at us and think we're scrubs for complaining about this stuff... Like, this is for Glory scrub level stuff.

Is more that we are making a very bad job in educating our comunity and our public about smash 4 and how can be played, this is becuase we still think that we need to prove ourselves to the others games in the series(or others fighters games) like melee or project m, that smash 4 can be entertaining but we still are in the mentality that in order to do so we need to cater to that demographic and doing so, neflecting aspect of smash 4.

 

[Nobie]

@Dabuz mentions that he finds Smash 4 to be an inherently aggro game and that someone like him who prefers defense has been having to incorporate some aggro play into his game.

An interesting perspective, and different from the standard "Smash 4 is defensive" stereotype.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I said this once and I'll say it again. We live in the Wombo combo/ken v chun li evo moment age.

All the viewers want to see nowadays are Them Happy feets.

Now I myself am more of an aggressive player but I respect defensive play since their's some character's who're meant to be defensive.

Speaking of play styles I noticed that the majority of character's in this game are rather defensive. I'll make a full list of 3 playstlyes being Aggressive( Fast Bait and Punish, Rushdown,mixup,zone breaking). Defensive(Slow Bait and punish, Zoning, spacing, Hit and run, anti rush down, Turtling). And all around/versatile. I want y'all to count how many defensive character's are in this game.


No this isn't a tier list

Aggressive:

Defensive:

All around/Versatile: /

edit: Switced Metaknight to aggressive and Yoshi to versatile/all around

Just because a character is combo orientated doesn't mean that character is aggressive. For example kirby has amazing combo potential yet his mobility/approaches are below average. Kirby requires baiting his opponent in order to get his combo's started

peach has similar problems but she has more defensive options and can pressure
shields

Note: Some of these could be wrong/full of it. But most of these should be just about right.

inb4 someone says you can play character's anyway you want. Yes I'm well aware of that.

This is just a general character play style list

edit: Oh yeah I almost forgot theirs a new update for smash boards that just happened. What do y'all think about it?

 

[|RK|]

I said this once and I'll say it again. We live in the Wombo combo/ken v chun li evo moment age.

All the viewers want to see nowadays are Them Happy feets.

Now I myself am more of an aggressive player but I respect defensive play since their's some character's who're meant to be defensive.

Speaking of play styles I noticed that the majority of character's in this game are rather defensive. I'll make a full list of 3 playstlyes being Aggressive(Rushdown,mixup,zone breaking). Defensive(Bait and punish, Zoning, spacing, Hit and run, anti rush down, Turtling). And all around/versatile. I want y'all to count how many defensive character's are in this game.


No this isn't a tier list

Aggressive:

Defensive:

All around/Versatile: /

Just because a character is combo orientated doesn't mean that character is aggressive. For example kirby has amazing combo potential yet his mobility/approaches are below average. Kirby requires baiting his opponent in order to get his combo's started

peach has similar problems but she has more defensive options and can pressure
shields

Note: Some of these could be wrong/full of it. But most of these should be just about right.

inb4 someone says you can play character's anyway you want. Yes I'm well aware of that.

This is just a general character play style list

edit: Oh yeah I almost forgot theirs a new update for smash boards that just happened. What do y'all think about it?

At a glance, I'd put Sonic in versatile. Though most Sonic mains are defensive, 6WX proves that there's value in being aggressive (if nothing else). There are probably more characters that need to be in versatile, but I'll let people better than me talk about that lol

 

[Shaya]

It's already the main stream thought process right now... I yell at people for this point the most in critiquing and is what I focus on when players ask for advice [after tournament sets]. "I knew you were going to do something defensive so I took that third to half of a second to do whatever I want... if you don't apply offensive pressure at all I'll just do... whatever I want".

Defensive actions are good, sure. But if you are never attempting to apply pressure (this is the main point to what dabuz was saying FYI) you can't win at top level against top tier characters ("great advantageous state"). This game does not reward sitting back and chip damaging into a kill move punish which was prolific in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Most good characters given space and freedom to set up (i.e. jump, get past dash frames, etc) are going to have dominant control and will force mistakes that can be heavily capitalized on.

The average major tournament match at top level right now is in the lower regions of between 2 and 3 minutes. This ironically came to the surface arguing with someone regionally that 3-stock events are NOT going to promote time outs/make events go forever; they wanted to bolster their point with statistics but self destructed, whoops.

Mid to highish level Smash4 right now is pretty poor. Neutral is worse, execution and stage control is more sloppy (easier to negate it with [air] dodge mindless mashing). But what we're tending to see now with the best players, that once someone's put in a bad spot, they rarely get out of it.
You have to be proactive to have a chance.

Are "lame"/walling type moves still in the meta? definitely. Top tiers tend to have them. The best top tiers have them double up as set up moves.

 

[Nobie]

I said this once and I'll say it again. We live in the Wombo combo/ken v chun li evo moment age.

All the viewers want to see nowadays are Them Happy feets.

Now I myself am more of an aggressive player but I respect defensive play since their's some character's who're meant to be defensive.

Speaking of play styles I noticed that the majority of character's in this game are rather defensive. I'll make a full list of 3 playstlyes being Aggressive(Rushdown,mixup,zone breaking). Defensive(Bait and punish, Zoning, spacing, Hit and run, anti rush down, Turtling). And all around/versatile. I want y'all to count how many defensive character's are in this game.


No this isn't a tier list

Aggressive:

Defensive:

All around/Versatile: /

Just because a character is combo orientated doesn't mean that character is aggressive. For example kirby has amazing combo potential yet his mobility/approaches are below average. Kirby requires baiting his opponent in order to get his combo's started

peach has similar problems but she has more defensive options and can pressure
shields

Note: Some of these could be wrong/full of it. But most of these should be just about right.

inb4 someone says you can play character's anyway you want. Yes I'm well aware of that.

This is just a general character play style list

edit: Oh yeah I almost forgot theirs a new update for smash boards that just happened. What do y'all think about it?

In general I think people have a super overly narrow definition of "aggression" but if we're categorizing it as like, mainly rushdown then I see where you're coming from. I'd actually put bait and punish in the aggressive category because a lot if it is applying offensive pressure.

 

[Toxicational]

Greninja is fine, Samus is low tier, but I'm fine with that.

 

[wedl!!]

Can you please explain how Zero Suit is an aggressive character but MK isn't

 

[Antonykun]

Can you please explain how Zero Suit is an aggressive character but MK isn't

what starts with Nai- and ends with -ro?

 

[HFlash]

It's funny how I said a week or 2 ago that Falcon was an offensive character yet alot of people "corrected me on that." Dancing in front of your opponent, and throwing out safe moves until an opponent leaves an opening is pretty aggro. Otherwise offensive would mean charging in senselessly which is pretty umm, untrue. Sir Tundra I would change almost nothing except:
a) Move MK from defensive to aggressive. He similarly to say C.F and ZSS, tend to do alot of empty SH and try to bait out a reaction so that they can go in and combo their opponent's face off. Same thing with Ike. I saw alot of Ryuga throwing out alot of safe aerials and when he got a hit in, would chase his opponent in the advantaged state for either an extra hit, or the stock.

b) Yoshi is definitely a versatile character. Sure he has his eggs, and can spam them from a distance, but Yoshi has alot of tools to work with in CQC including jab, nair, retreating fair, neutral B, and so on. Yoshi is one of those characters that can weave so well between aggro and defensive which is probably the kind of thing top level Yoshi's still need to master to get the most out of him. Would Yoshi prefer to fight within egg distance? Probably, but he has more tools than most of the "defensive" cast to fight toe to toe (pun intended) with the more up close and personal characters.

Note: Looking at your list which is pretty solid (At the very least 80% correct), this would go against Dabuz's statement at the game being very aggressive. I think it's more of a psychological point of view for him that because he is so defensive, he views everyone he plays against as very aggressive.

what starts with Nai- and ends with -ro?

Whether or not Nairo plays ZSS defensively or not shouldn't characterize how the character is designed to play. If say, I were ESAM, and I played Pikachu by putting up a wall of Thunders and Thunderjolts, that doesn't mean Pikachu is a defensive character per say.

Edit: Meant to say Ryuga @ Rebirth (Aired tonight on twitch).

 

[Blobface]

what starts with Nai- and ends with -ro?

TFW you find out Nairo's name is actually Nairoby.

Are "lame"/walling type moves still in the meta? definitely. Top tiers tend to have them. The best top tiers have them double up as set up moves.

This post is amazing, but I'm curious, but what are some of those moves and are they the main reason that there are "gatekeepers" in the meta?

 

[Sir Tundra]

In general I think people have a super overly narrow definition of "aggression" but if we're categorizing it as like, mainly rushdown then I see where you're coming from. I'd actually put bait and punish in the aggressive category because a lot if it is applying offensive pressure.

Bait and punish could mean both offense and defense depending on the characters speed.

So I guess bait and punish can be put in both the aggressive and defensive category

for example ganondorf is all about baiting his opponent ye due to his speed he has to play more defensive.

While captain falcon can just dance around his opponent and then punish the opponent when they least expect it or make a mistake

Greninja is fine, Samus is low tier, but I'm fine with that.

I see your new here. Welcome to smashboards

I'm not sure if your refering to the this:

Version 1 (July 18th)

Greatest Threats

(±0) (+3) (±0) (±0) (-3) (±0) (±0) (+3) (-1) (-1)
(-1) (+1) (+2) (-2) (+3) (±0) (-3) (-1)
Notable (unordered): (**) (**) (**) [](↓)(**)​

Inconclusive / Outliers (unordered)

​

Perceived Underwhelming (unordered)

(↑) (↓)(↑)
(**) ​

Spoiler: Condensed Version

1. Sheik
2. Zero Suit Samus
3. Pikachu
4. Luigi
5. Rosalina & Luma
6. Fox
7. Sonic
8. Diddy Kong
9. Mario
10. Ness
11. Yoshi
12. Captain Falcon
13. Meta Knight
14. R.O.B.
15. Wario
16. Villager
17. Olimar & Alph & Pikmins
18. Lucario
19≈23. Donkey Kong, Megaman, Peach, Pits, Ryu

24≈34. Bowser Jr., Falco, Mr. Game & Watch, Greninja, Ike, Kirby, Marth, Pacman, Robin, Roy, Toon Link

35≈36. Bowser, Little Mac
37≈44. King Dedede, Charizard, Duck Hunt, Link, Lucas, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordsman, Shulk
45. Lucina
46≈54. Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Mii Gunner, Palutena, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda

Or my list which is about playstyles

Can you please explain how Zero Suit is an aggressive character but MK isn't

ZSS is an aggressive character because ZSS is a character who generally punishes characters with her speed. She's a fast combo based character with strong aerial control. That alone should make her aggressive.

edit: as of metaknight I just switched him to aggressive category

 

[outfoxd]

Ryuga beat zinoto and rayquaza and is gonna play Zero in a minute.

http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming/

 

[HFlash]

ZSS is an aggressive character because ZSS is a character who generally punishes characters with her speed. She's a fast combo based character with strong aerial control. That alone should make her aggressive.

I'm pretty sure he was saying why MK wasn't in the aggressive label as opposed to why ZSS wasn't.

Hype note: Ryuga showing that Ike is more than just an "outlier." He just guaranteed himself top 3. Ike uthrow to air dodge frame trap uair is no joke (he killed Ray's shiek with only 80% with rage!).

Edit: outfoxd seems like you outpaced me to it ...... (don't kill me nice people of smashboards).

 

[san.]

Me and Ryo also won our locals today with Ike ;_;

Very nice to Ryuga! Knew he had it in him.

 

[wedl!!]

When I asked how Zero Suit is aggro and MK isn't, I wasn't asking how Zero Suit is an aggressive character. I was wondering how MK wasn't considering he does the same sort of "i fish for a setup and you die off the top at 40% lol" thing that Zero Suit does.

 

[Antonykun]

Whether or not Nairo plays ZSS defensively or not shouldn't characterize how the character is designed to play. If say, I were ESAM, and I played Pikachu by putting up a wall of Thunders and Thunderjolts, that doesn't mean Pikachu is a defensive character per say.

To be completely honest Top level players dictate how a character is perceived. If you played pikachu as a campy t-jolt + thunder walls and won on a top level we would most likely beleive pikachu is or can be very defensive depending on wether or not ESAM exists on this hypothetical "HFlash is a top level defensive pikachu player"

Likewise is Dabuz wasn't so defensive we wouldn't of Rosalina and Luma as a purely defensive wall of hitboxes.

 

[Sir Tundra]

When I asked how Zero Suit is aggro and MK isn't, I wasn't asking how Zero Suit is an aggressive character. I was wondering how MK wasn't considering he does the same sort of "i fish for a setup and you die off the top at 40% lol" thing that Zero Suit does.

Ooooh that's what you meant... Whoops I read that wrong. My apologies

 

[HFlash]

No disrespect, but the fact that Ike is keeping it really close to Zero's Shiek (particularly game 1 and 2 in Ryuga/Zero set) is what is so head turning. Most people only view national results as truly noteworthy. Would love to see you and other Ike mains show how Ike stacks up to the likes of Shiek and her top representative players. Regardless, keep up the good work!