Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[HFlash]

Back to the point of the thread, any other notable Marth Mains going aside from @ Vipermoon and @ Shaya going to Big House and/or Rebirth?

 

[Jucchan]

Anyways, one thing I find interesting about the Japanese meta is that their players/tier lists (or at least the ones I've seen) tend to rate Mario very highly, and yet I can't think of any notable Japanese Mario mains. I wonder why that is?

Their best Marios are FILIP (king of Kyushu, Top 6 at Hyper Sumabato, Top 16 at Umebura 19) and Tatsutsuyo (Top 16 at Hyper Sumabato and Sumabato 5).

 

[Vipermoon]

Back to the point of the thread, any other notable Marth Mains going aside from @ Vipermoon and @ Shaya going to Big House and/or Rebirth?

I actually don't know. No one from Michigan at least. Wait Shaya's going? All the way from Aussy?

Rebirth is going to have basically the entire Midwest, Zero, Georgia and Canada involved. The week of BH5, the Southfield weekly is going to have Zero, Nairo, the PG gang including MVD and ESAM there including others.

Yup. I'm actually picking up my Georgian teammate from the airport tonight.

 

[HFlash]

I'm probably wrong about Shaya (sorry if I am) but that really is dissapointing. Looking forward to seeing you show off to the world what Marth can do.

On the discussion of underrepresented characters, this weeks r/smashbros AMA featured MVD. The whole interview is pretty interesting but right here https://youtu.be/lEVbnTr7Fis?t=1911 he talks about and his issues. Pretty much saying he'd be viable if he had a kill throw (at around 150% or so). What do you guys think?

Edit: Also, at this point https://youtu.be/lEVbnTr7Fis?t=2256 : "Diddy was nerfed for a reason."

 

[DunnoBro]

He'd definitely be viable with a 160% no rage/140% with rage kill throw. Though it wouldn't really fix the issues of the character it'd just opt out of his design for the simplest solution.

Uthrow should kill sooner but not soon enough that it could be a main kill situation.

They need to fix his damn smashes most imo, a trapper/wall-out character with super linear and inconsistent killing traps and no way to scare you from just going ham on him? It's the most glaring flaw of the character and the only one I can see them fixing enough to make him viable.

 

[HFlash]

He'd definitely be viable with a 160% no rage/140% with rage kill throw. Though it wouldn't really fix the issues of the character it'd just opt out of his design for the simplest solution.

Uthrow should kill sooner but not soon enough that it could be a main kill situation.

They need to fix his damn smashes most imo, a trapper/wall-out character with super linear and inconsistent killing traps and no way to scare you from just going ham on him? It's the most glaring flaw of the character and the only one I can see them fixing enough to make him viable.

MVD does mention this (and Uair being inconsistent) but in his opinion, he saw having a kill throw as more important.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yikes that's a hyperbolic post if I've ever seen one.

What you describe is only the reality if there is a ba internet connection. If the connection is solid like it should be then what you you're saying just sin't true. And it really sounds like a rather out there odge to avoid playing me because you're afraid of loosing. Whatever though.

As for me offline I'm not sure how to answer that. Haven't been able to play offline nearly as much as I'd like since I on't have a car. There one tournament series that I did attend semi-regularly was a pretty stacked tournament n central Jersey which had some of the best players in the state as regulars(Namely Nakat and False), an I did manage to get on the top 8 power rankings in the previous season despite attending irregularly.

And to be clear I'm in no way claiming to be an amazing or even great player, just that I'm at least better than @Zelder is.

The only tournament I can think of is 8 on the break. Although nakat and false hasn't shown up lately maybe smash forever?

Regardless of what it id I'm interested in playing you myself. I'm from Jersey always so the connection should be pretty good. Also most of thr guys hear attend tournaments. Reflex who you called out is probably the best player in his region and has been a strong player since the brawl days.

RJ s tournament is tomorrow are you going to that? Also I suggest you look to carpool with peopleto attend tournaments. Anyways like I said I'll play you since we're both from Jersey. Also when my local starts hosting tournaments again you should come down.

@ Jucchan for mewtwo I've seen daiki m2_kento Abadango and ginko. Are their any other strong Mewtwos in Japan? Any youtube channels you'd recommend other than shiG? Or is that it for the Japanese scene?

 

[DunnoBro]

MVD does mention this (and Uair being inconsistent) but in his opinion, he saw having a kill throw as more important.

I know. A trapping character should be able to punish stupid options hard not just eventually.

 

[Jucchan]

@ Jucchan for mewtwo I've seen daiki m2_kento Abadango and ginko. Are their any other strong Mewtwos in Japan? Any youtube channels you'd recommend other than shiG? Or is that it for the Japanese scene?

Unfortunately, those are the only mewtwos as far as I know. Also, SHI-G uploads pretty much all the major Japanese tourney videos. I know terminalkai uploads some online tournament videos though.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Pac-main coming through to say why a lot of characters are better than Pac-Man.

*clears throat*

That boy can't take no stocks!!!

---

On more indepth note, Pac-Man requires a good amount of conditioning or mindgames to be able to take a stock. Pac-Man has a great neutral, or, he can bend the neutral to his will with his stage control tools, he has basically a get out of jail free card with his trampoline if you space it correctly to get to the ledge, and his damage wracking ability is great (but this can also be a determent because oh boy Captain Falcon is at 150% rage and he can kill us at like 60 off a good read). He has an ever expanding collection of set ups at his disposal. His tools allow him to do so much and constantly mix up his game... and despite all that taking the stock is still hard as hell. He can be one of the most flashy and stylish characters in the game which is nice.

His grab game is an obvious weakness, his built in counterplay is unbalanced, his smash attacks are outright bad without a bell or a good read, Key doesn't scale with rage, We can reset back to neutral all we want but if we can't get the kill then what are we gonna do? Constantly having to mix up your game is exhausting mentally and playing Pac-Man can get to you. Sometimes you just wish you could go in for the kill, but you can't.

We've been talking a lot about a player name Dee and he's amazing, but he's all online right now and I'l like to see what he can do offline. Us Pac's have learned a lot by watching him. He introduced us to combos off of Galaxian that can easily net 50%-ish percent. His Bell mindgames are amazing (our metagame has been shifting to using Bell to score most of our kills since Key is unreliable).

The thing that's keeping Pac relevant is that his space control game gives him the ability to allow for breaks to set up. His buttons are pretty good too. His nair is great and he becomes a lot more dangerous with a fruit in his hand. One of my favorite things to do is z drop a galaxian (the only fruit with two hitboxes out of a zdrop if I recall correctly) onto a fire hydrant and return to neutral. This creates a delayed fire hydrant that basically comes out of nowhere. His regrabbed fruit can't be caught either so it takes their counterplay out of the equation.

Sorry this turned out to be a lot more rambly then I meant it to be. But if I had to rank Pac-Man I would put him in the 15-20 range. Probably closer to 20. He can do A LOT of cool things and some characters he can completely shut down (Luigi) and he has some decent match ups with a few top/high tiers. No Pac-Man should be too afraid of Sheik. He's one of the few characters who makes Sheik play HIS game. He doesn't care about needles and can literally set a hydrant down in her face without worry. She can't break it in one hit besides a super telegraphed move like f smash.

---

So I hope I gave a good, honest review of Pac and where I think he fits in the grand scheme of things n_n

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Key doesn't scale with rage

This is news to me. And probably a good chunk of everyone else who doesn't play Pac-Man.

 

[Nu~]

Pac-main coming through to say why a lot of characters are better than Pac-Man.

*clears throat*

That boy can't take no stocks!!!

---

On more indepth note, Pac-Man requires a good amount of conditioning or mindgames to be able to take a stock. Pac-Man has a great neutral, or, he can bend the neutral to his will with his stage control tools, he has basically a get out of jail free card with his trampoline if you space it correctly to get to the ledge, and his damage wracking ability is great (but this can also be a determent because oh boy Captain Falcon is at 150% rage and he can kill us at like 60 off a good read). He has an ever expanding collection of set ups at his disposal. His tools allow him to do so much and constantly mix up his game... and despite all that taking the stock is still hard as hell. He can be one of the most flashy and stylish characters in the game which is nice.

His grab game is an obvious weakness, his built in counterplay is unbalanced, his smash attacks are outright bad without a bell or a good read, Key doesn't scale with rage, We can reset back to neutral all we want but if we can't get the kill then what are we gonna do? Constantly having to mix up your game is exhausting mentally and playing Pac-Man can get to you. Sometimes you just wish you could go in for the kill, but you can't.

We've been talking a lot about a player name Dee and he's amazing, but he's all online right now and I'l like to see what he can do offline. Us Pac's have learned a lot by watching him. He introduced us to combos off of Galaxian that can easily net 50%-ish percent. His Bell mindgames are amazing (our metagame has been shifting to using Bell to score most of our kills since Key is unreliable).

The thing that's keeping Pac relevant is that his space control game gives him the ability to allow for breaks to set up. His buttons are pretty good too. His nair is great and he becomes a lot more dangerous with a fruit in his hand. One of my favorite things to do is z drop a galaxian (the only fruit with two hitboxes out of a zdrop if I recall correctly) onto a fire hydrant and return to neutral. This creates a delayed fire hydrant that basically comes out of nowhere. His regrabbed fruit can't be caught either so it takes their counterplay out of the equation.

Sorry this turned out to be a lot more rambly then I meant it to be. But if I had to rank Pac-Man I would put him in the 15-20 range. Probably closer to 20. He can do A LOT of cool things and some characters he can completely shut down (Luigi) and he has some decent match ups with a few top/high tiers. No Pac-Man should be too afraid of Sheik. He's one of the few characters who makes Sheik play HIS game. He doesn't care about needles and can literally set a hydrant down in her face without worry. She can't break it in one hit besides a super telegraphed move like f smash.

---

So I hope I gave a good, honest review of Pac and where I think he fits in the grand scheme of things n_n

Yeah...it is exhausting to get that stock. It's my only qualm with him.

Still trying to find those easy kill confirms tho. As of now, I'll keep trying to juggle 80 situational ones and end up killing at 150% half of the time lol.

Oh, and I agree with your tier list position. I think he's probably hovering around 17-19 right now.

Edit: but I wouldn't call our smashes bad per say. Slow, yes, but they are pretty strong.
They also beat out a lot of attacks because of their weird priority.

 

[Rizen]

Edit: but I wouldn't call our smashes bad per say. Slow, yes, but they are pretty strong.
They also beat out a lot of attacks because of their weird priority.

And they work with his fire hydrant. What damage % does it take to launch it?

 

[Nu~]

And they work with his fire hydrant. What damage % does it take to launch it?

13%. Only the first hit of inky will hit it so you need to deal 10% to the hydrant before you can launch it with that.

The other two do enough to launch it in one hit as long as you don't stale them.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I would actually like to know why or how pacman is better then peach and wario. With that what about his gameplan makes him better and his presence in tournaments.

 

[MachoCheeze]

I would actually like to know why or how pacman is better then peach and wario. With that what about his gameplan makes him better and his presence in tournaments.

I don't think he is. Wario is a monster, especially in a 2-stock meta. Peach is another incredibly technical character, but unlike Pac-Man she's easier to take stocks with. I'm not sure where Froggy is coming from when he said that tbh.

 

[Nu~]

I don't know nearly enough about peach to have an opinion, but I know that wario is better.

I could ask @DrakeRowan who mains both pacman and peach

 

[Vipermoon]

Would be nice if someone explained/proved why/that Key doesn't scale with rage. It makes no sense to me because projectiles scale with rage.

 

[Locke 06]

Would be nice if someone explained/proved why/that Key doesn't scale with rage. It makes no sense to me because projectiles scale with rage.

Because the key is an item and has no "owner." Metal blades also do not scale.

I was under the assumption that no items scaled with rage/staled. However they do enter the stale move cue when used when they're pulled out (I.e. MB as neutral-B) so they can help unstale other things. I assumed fruit and gyro functions the same.

 

[BSP]

Would be nice if someone explained/proved why/that Key doesn't scale with rage. It makes no sense to me because projectiles scale with rage.

Pac-Man's fruits neither stale or scale with rage. Why? I don't know.

It's pretty easy to verify for yourself. Go into training mode and see when Key KOs someone. See when Blinky KOs.

Go into smash mode and give Pac-Man a 150% handicap. You'll find that Blinky KOs about 20% sooner. Key doesn't change.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Locke 06 @ BSP

Thanks

 

[Ffamran]

You are right that you are not very good explaining. Me neither. But Rosalina isn't basic at all. You have to control a sluggish woman made out of glass at the same time you manage a fragile but OP star and prevent getting it killed as well as the sluggish woman made out of glass. Luma just has a lot of crap to learn about, things like it's BS hitboxes like UTilt and Jab 3, shooting it out at the right time and to **** shields at the edge, doing wombo combos, Lunar landing, using Luma's aerials specifically for stuff instead of Rosalina for comboing, escaping grabs using Luma, catching people offguard, knowing the distance of Luma to know if you will OHKO people at 80% or do roof kills, etc. And that is just Luma. Rosalina has some BS of her own. And like I mentioned, she is kinda sluggish, very light, can't land at all, has an exploitable recovery and she has to manage Luma and herself. I guess she is easier to learn than Ice Climbers, but still really technical and completely different to everyone in Smash 4.

Very late, but a correction because I like nitpicking fine details; fact: Rosalina has a run speed of 1.632, above average, her walk speed of 1.0835, average-ish, air speed of 1, average, fall speed of 1.02, floaty, and weight of 78, very lightweight which you got right. And quoting Trifroze's study of air control.

Tier list time, aerial "weaving in and out" tiers that is:

Everyone not specified has 0.01 deceleration in the air, others are specified and the rest of every score is acceleration. For example having 0.05 acceleration and 0.04 deceleration is better than having 0.08 acceleration and 0.01 deceleration because both are used equally for switching your direction, although I'm not exactly sure of the "optimal ratio" for that. Aerial speed isn't taken into account in any way.

S tier

Jigglypuff: 0.13 (0.05 decel)
Wario: 0.12 (0.04 decel)

A tier

Mr. Game & Watch: 0.1 (0.07 decel)
Yoshi: 0.098 (0.03 decel)
Kirby: 0.095 (0.03 decel)
Samus: 0.09 (0.04 decel)
Mega Man: 0.11
Palutena: 0.11
Peach: 0.11
Rosalina: 0.11

B tier

Ness: 0.1
Pikachu: 0.1
Zero Suit Samus: 0.095
R.O.B.: 0.85 (0.04 decel)
Fox: 0.09
Sheik: 0.09
Toon Link: 0.09
Wii Fit Trainer: 0.09

C tier

Bowser Jr: 0.08
Duck Hunt Duo: 0.08
Falco: 0.08
Greninja: 0.08
Marios: 0.08
Marths: 0.08
Mii Gunner: 0.08
Olimar: 0.08
Pac-Man: 0.08
Robin: 0.08
Captain Falcon: 0.075
Meta Knight: 0.075
Pits: 0.075

D tier

Mii Brawler: 0.068
Luigi: 0.075 (0 decel)
Zelda: 0.65
Lucario: 0.07 (0 decel)
Charizard: 0.06
Donkey Kong: 0.06
Bowser: 0.05
Ike: 0.05
Mii Swordfighter: 0.05
King Dedede: 0.05
Link: 0.05
Shulk: 0.05
Sonic: 0.05

E tier

Diddy kong: 0.05 (0 decel)
Ganondorf: 0.04
Little Mac: 0.038

rip DLC character info, although Ryu is pretty clearly at least F tier

Rosalina's air control is good. Frame data-wise? Rosalina is at worst, average. She's not Mario, Luigi, Sheik, Fox, or Falco - yes, goddamned Falco who so many people for whatever reason equate his attack speed to Ganondorf, Ike, Shulk, Greninja, Bowser, and Triple D. At the same time, she isn't close to those slower-attacking characters. She's pretty much right in the middle like Zelda who share similar frame data... The only thing "sluggish" about Rosalina is her fall speed and derpy ledge roll animation. If Rosalina is sluggish, then I don't want to know what Ganondorf would be considered... A glacier?

Speaking of disjointed F-air's that are safe on shield, Ganon's disjointed fastfallen F-air is now safe on shield from everything I've tested* when spaced due to a combination of pushback and shieldstun. It's not the watertight safety of certain other Zelda series F-airs, but a character as unsafe as Ganon loves this.

*Needles, C-falcon Dashgrab, ZSS and Link tether, Sheik F-air OoS.

Speaking of Ganondorf's Fair, it would be pretty damn cool if he had a landing hitbox kind of like his fist slam in Ocarina of Time. Nothing insane; maybe a 5% shockwave that can't connect with the regular hitbox since that would do like 23%.

 

[Sucumbio]

Rosalina is sluggish, then I don't want to know what Ganondorf would be considered... A glacier?

I got a genuine out loud chuckle and woke the house haha good show

Speaking of Ganondorf's Fair, it would be pretty damn cool if he had a landing hitbox kind of like his fist slam in Ocarina of Time. Nothing insane; maybe a 5% shockwave that can't connect with the regular hitbox since that would do like 23%.

Yes pls

 

[Blobface]

Pac Mains: Blinky, Inky, etc.

Against Sheik, Ganondorf depends really heavily on Iron Shoulder to get in, which he can follow up with a Tyrannous Grasp at low %s into a Dirt Nap for further followups. At higher %s Vulture Kick is a consistent follow up, but you might want to read her Ninja Aeromaneuver to land a Soulfire Impaler, or a Scythe Kick depending on which side of the Anti-Descent Battlezone you're on.

That aside, I'm curious what Pacman mains think about Pacman vs Ganondorf. I can't see it being far from even either way. Pacman has all his shenanigans but difficulty killing is a really bad problem to have against Ganondorf, and hydrant in particular is really easy for Ganon to take advantage of. Ganondorf's lack of good get-off-me options is going to be an issue though.

 

[Nu~]

Against Sheik, Ganondorf depends really heavily on Iron Shoulder to get in, which he can follow up with a Tyrannous Grasp at low %s into a Dirt Nap for further followups. At higher %s Vulture Kick is a consistent follow up, but you might want to read her Ninja Aeromaneuver to land a Soulfire Impaler, or a Scythe Kick depending on which side of the Anti-Descent Battlezone you're on.

That aside, I'm curious what Pacman mains think about Pacman vs Ganondorf. I can't see it being far from even either way. Pacman has all his shenanigans but difficulty killing is a really bad problem to have against Ganondorf, and hydrant in particular is really easy for Ganon to take advantage of. Ganondorf's lack of good get-off-me options is going to be an issue though.

The first thing you must ask yourself when fighting a Pac-Man: how safely can I get over a trampoline?

Edit: Oh, and that was clever of you

 

[Ffamran]

I got a genuine out loud chuckle and woke the house haha good show

Going off of TV Tropes, Ganondorf is a mighty glacier... He does kind of take a year to move a 0.5 meters. Meanwhile, young and limber Robin... I was going to put "rock" instead of "glacier", but I realized that you can throw rocks and they move pretty damn fast like thrown slugs and snails.

Yes pls

It just makes sense lore-wise for him to have a shockwave. That and the man's slamming his fist on the ground with all his weight. Kind of like how it would make sense for Ganondorf and Ryu to angle their Ftilts (and Side Smash for Ryu) since you can kick high or low with a front kick, roundhouse, and side kick. Ryu's Ftilt is basically like Fox and Falco's; all three do roundhouses, but for whatever reason, a master martial artist can't seem to control where he's kicking. Another it would make sense is Falco's Reflector having a kick hitbox. It could do 2% with weighted knockback to lead into the Reflector hitbox and it would make sense. Hell, it could be frame 4-only and it wouldn't be game-breaking. It's a it makes sense sort of deal kind of like it would make sense for Meta Knight's hitboxes to work properly, for Samus's Side Smash to have at least another active frame 'cause explosion animation, it would make sense for Samus's Screw Attack to have invincibility frames, it would make sense for a hard-hitting uppercut from Ike's dash attack to be stronger than his Dtilt, it would make sense for a freaking Izuna Drop from Charizard to kill you rather than him breathing fire onto you with D-throw and magically launching you, and it would make sense for Marth and Lucina to lift people up with their jab - they're doing uppercuts with their Falchion. All, but Samus had these made sense changes. Some are logical and some are lore like how Seismic Toss is a strong move - confirm or deny, Pokémon experts - or how Screw Attack is invincible in the Metroid games.

Some of these make sense changes would be killer like Ganondorf having control over his Ftilt? His current Ftilt sends you almost straight at 22 degrees. Now imagine if he could angle them? Angled up would lead to something like a 42 launch angle sending you straight into the air and would be a killer anti-air. Ganondorf goes, "AH!", and you're dead. Angled down? Have fun dealing with a frame 10 spike. He'd just stand at the ledge and stomp his foot down onto your face. Other changes would just be safety like Samus having another active frame on Side Smash would lead to people not complaining about her Side Smash whiffing and Screw Attack would be a more useful get-off me option.

 

[L9999]

Very late, but a correction because I like nitpicking fine details; fact: Rosalina has a run speed of 1.632, above average, her walk speed of 1.0835, average-ish, air speed of 1, average, fall speed of 1.02, floaty, and weight of 78, very lightweight which you got right. And quoting Trifroze's study of air control.

Rosalina's air control is good. Frame data-wise? Rosalina is at worst, average. She's not Mario, Luigi, Sheik, Fox, or Falco - yes, goddamned Falco who so many people for whatever reason equate his attack speed to Ganondorf, Ike, Shulk, Greninja, Bowser, and Triple D. At the same time, she isn't close to those slower-attacking characters. She's pretty much right in the middle like Zelda who share similar frame data... The only thing "sluggish" about Rosalina is her fall speed and derpy ledge roll animation. If Rosalina is sluggish, then I don't want to know what Ganondorf would be considered... A glacier?


Speaking of Ganondorf's Fair, it would be pretty damn cool if he had a landing hitbox kind of like his fist slam in Ocarina of Time. Nothing insane; maybe a 5% shockwave that can't connect with the regular hitbox since that would do like 23%.

Wait, Zelda? .... Good response. Maybe I get the impression of Rosalina being sluggish thanks to the lousy online and her meh landing lag. And there is a lot more wrong with Samus than her Side Smash. For some reason her hurtbox is really big and perfectly placed for getting hit at max range, but her hitboxes are Pichu ranged/extremely misplaced and her multi-hits are easily DI'd in a game where SDI is almost non-existent.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nothing insane; maybe a 5% shockwave that can't connect with the regular hitbox since that would do like 23%.

I don't see the issue.

 

[MachoCheeze]

That aside, I'm curious what Pacman mains think about Pacman vs Ganondorf. I can't see it being far from even either way. Pacman has all his shenanigans but difficulty killing is a really bad problem to have against Ganondorf, and hydrant in particular is really easy for Ganon to take advantage of. Ganondorf's lack of good get-off-me options is going to be an issue though.

A really good Ganondorf showed up at our school's weeklies this semester and I had to play him in bracket.

Pac-Man has to be super safe and play the lame game against Ganondorf. The king of evil also really doesn't care about the hydrant at all. Trampoline helps in this match up, but as you mentioned Pac-Man's stock taking inabilty sucks in this MU.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Some are logical and some are lore like how Seismic Toss is a strong move - confirm or deny, Pokémon experts -

Only ever used by support Pokemon with nonexistent offensive stats that need it in order to deal damage and prevent being Taunt bait. So, basically just Chansey uses it. Maybe Audino.

Seismic Toss being the premier KO move of Charizard's comes from the Pokemon anime when it was his iconic finishing move. But in the show now, apparently Charizard forgot the move, and replaced it with Steel Wing. Oops.

If we're talking "sensible" move changes, make Robin's Ftilt smack opponents into the ground plz. He uses a swatting down motion, he should pinning people to the ground and forcing tech-chases with it.

Also have the Utilt hitbox match the animation. It doesn't have a hitbox as it's going up in the first few frames, but for some crazy reason it's got a large disjoint behind the sword at the end of the swing, as if the sword's supposed to keep going. I don't even know.

Then again, books kill earlier than a lightning sword does, and oh yeah, the books kill. So Robin's just a grab-bag of random nuances.

 

[Doctor3AM]

Going off of TV Tropes, Ganondorf is a mighty glacier... He does kind of take a year to move a 0.5 meters. Meanwhile, young and limber Robin... I was going to put "rock" instead of "glacier", but I realized that you can throw rocks and they move pretty damn fast like thrown slugs and snails.


It just makes sense lore-wise for him to have a shockwave. That and the man's slamming his fist on the ground with all his weight. Kind of like how it would make sense for Ganondorf and Ryu to angle their Ftilts (and Side Smash for Ryu) since you can kick high or low with a front kick, roundhouse, and side kick. Ryu's Ftilt is basically like Fox and Falco's; all three do roundhouses, but for whatever reason, a master martial artist can't seem to control where he's kicking. Another it would make sense is Falco's Reflector having a kick hitbox. It could do 2% with weighted knockback to lead into the Reflector hitbox and it would make sense. Hell, it could be frame 4-only and it wouldn't be game-breaking. It's a it makes sense sort of deal kind of like it would make sense for Meta Knight's hitboxes to work properly, for Samus's Side Smash to have at least another active frame 'cause explosion animation, it would make sense for Samus's Screw Attack to have invincibility frames, it would make sense for a hard-hitting uppercut from Ike's dash attack to be stronger than his Dtilt, it would make sense for a freaking Izuna Drop from Charizard to kill you rather than him breathing fire onto you with D-throw and magically launching you, and it would make sense for Marth and Lucina to lift people up with their jab - they're doing uppercuts with their Falchion. All, but Samus had these made sense changes. Some are logical and some are lore like how Seismic Toss is a strong move - confirm or deny, Pokémon experts - or how Screw Attack is invincible in the Metroid games.

Some of these make sense changes would be killer like Ganondorf having control over his Ftilt? His current Ftilt sends you almost straight at 22 degrees. Now imagine if he could angle them? Angled up would lead to something like a 42 launch angle sending you straight into the air and would be a killer anti-air. Ganondorf goes, "AH!", and you're dead. Angled down? Have fun dealing with a frame 10 spike. He'd just stand at the ledge and stomp his foot down onto your face. Other changes would just be safety like Samus having another active frame on Side Smash would lead to people not complaining about her Side Smash whiffing and Screw Attack would be a more useful get-off me option.

The Charizard part, they changed his D-Throw to a combo throw and his U-Throw to a kill throw. Unless if you meant something else

 

[Ffamran]

Wait, Zelda? .... Good response. Maybe I get the impression of Rosalina being sluggish thanks to the lousy online and her meh landing lag. And there is a lot more wrong with Samus than her Side Smash. For some reason her hurtbox is really big and perfectly placed for getting hit at max range, but her hitboxes are Pichu ranged/extremely misplaced and her multi-hits are easily DI'd in a game where SDI is almost non-existent.

Attack speed is as follows without Luma of course.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|8-10|11-15
Dash Attack|6-19|6-10
Utilt|9-17|7-18
Ftilt|7-9|12-13
Dtilt|5-8|5-11
Up Smash|8-16|9-32
Side Smash|16-18|16-24
Down Smash|6-7 or 17-18|5-6 or 13-14
Nair|9-46|6-23
Uair|8-29|14-16
Fair|11-28|9-13
Bair|9-11|6-9
Dair|17-25|14-24
Standing Grab|6-7|10-11
Dash Grab|8-9|11-12
Pivot Grab|9-10|11-12

Overall, I'd say they're similar in attack speed; Rosalina only wins out on jab, Ftilt, Up Smash (barely), Uair, and all grabs. Now, how do they all work? That's another story. Okay... that grab data for Zelda... Why? Grab data like that on a slow character... We really should have a standardized grab data...

The Charizard part, they changed his D-Throw to a combo throw and his U-Throw to a kill throw. Unless if you meant something else

Meant that it was kind of ridiculous his D-throw killed when it doesn't look like it should launch people like that while U-throw wasn't as strong of a kill throw pre-patch 1.0.8.[/table]

 

[Nu~]

@ Blobface

Pacman would probably focus more on killing Ganon offstage. One orange spells death for the mighty tyrant and our ledge traps are lethal.

If pacman ever goes in, it would be with SH retreating Fairs, that are safe on shield, or a galaxian. Ganon is combo food for the galaxian and one measley hit can spell a 0-55% combo. Otherwise, it's smarter for pacman to hide behind the trampoline and wait for Ganon to come to him.

Hydrants aren't totally useless against Ganon. They don't matter if you use them as a stationary wall because ganon's entire move set can launch it in one hit. However, launching hydrants at him does slow him down significantly. Especially if you mix it with z dropped fruit and DITCIT tossed melons.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Can't one just powershield any non-Galaxian/key fruit and instantly Z-Catch it? Do Pac-Mans just wait it out with Hydrants and Trampolines until the other party gets bored and throws it away to get their A-moves back? What if they don't get bored or just have the lead and don't care?

I was playing an FG Pac yesterday when I caught the Orange after powershield, and just spent a minute or two chucking spells at him and keeping distance. The Pac had no idea what to do. Is there something that can be done?

 

[Nu~]

Can't one just powershield any non-Galaxian/key fruit and instantly Z-Catch it? Do Pac-Mans just wait it out with Hydrants and Trampolines until the other party gets bored and throws it away to get their A-moves back? What if they don't get bored or just have the lead and don't care?

I was playing an FG Pac yesterday when I caught the Orange after powershield, and just spent a minute or two chucking spells at him and keeping distance. The Pac had no idea what to do. Is there something that can be done?

Funny you should ask. We just discussed this in the pac-man boards

I've been thinking that we should re-evaluate just how bad a stolen fruit is when we've got the lead. Ever since that patch that stopped characters from being able to do jabs, tilts, etc. while holding an item, everyone is quite limited when holding an item on the ground.

Think about Falcon holding your cherry, strawberry, or orange. He loses his grab, dash grab, jab, all smashes, and all tilts in exchange for a projectile that does 4/6/8% and won't KO you at any reasonable %. He also can't instant launch your hydrant from the ground, except maybe with a close range falcon kick that you'll punish. You lose your fruit, but he loses so much more.

TBH, outside of....maybe Robin (who will run out of spells...replenishing your shield), who can apply long / mid range pressure to us that we can't pellet heal or hydrant tank consistently while holding our fruit? Maybe Sonic due to speed and spin dashes, but Brawlman has been ignoring my fruit as of late unless it's a bell because he loses his key options. Actually, if Sonic spindashes at you with your fruit and you clank with it, you're going to win the boxing war unless his item toss is F4 or less. You can also shield with full confidence because he can't grab you with a fruit in hand.

It's just a thought though. I bring it up because I see Pac-Men start playing a bit more aggro when their fruit gets stolen, even if they have the lead. Play smarter, not harder.

Of course, I could be an outlier here. I'm wiling to time people out even when I'm just screwing around in FG lol.

A good example I remember seeing in a real match was Abadango vs MVD at Evo. I know Abadango had a lead, but I don't remember by how much. He threw a melon, and it got stolen. Abadango proceeded to playing a quite bit more aggro while MVD did his best to hold the melon and still apply pressure.

IIRC, the stage was smashville. My question is why not just grab the ledge or sit on the SV platform? Or sit there and hit trick shot back / pellet heal off of clay pigeon? Meanwhile, throw hydrants around with the intention of disruption.

All of this being said, don't let people take your fruit for free all day. On the flip side, don't tunnel vision retrieving your fruit if it gets stolen, unless it's a bell or key. Even then, I wouldn't go into panic mode or anything.

 

[TriTails]

Iron Shoulder-Tyrannous Grasp-Dirt Nap-Vulture Kick-Ninja Aeromaneuver- Soulfire Impaler-Scythe Kick-Anti-Descent Battlezone

I second Ganon and I have no idea what half of this post are saying.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Can't one just powershield any non-Galaxian/key fruit and instantly Z-Catch it? Do Pac-Mans just wait it out with Hydrants and Trampolines until the other party gets bored and throws it away to get their A-moves back? What if they don't get bored or just have the lead and don't care
I was playing an FG Pac yesterday when I caught the Orange after powershield, and just spent a minute or two chucking spells at him and keeping distance. The Pac had no idea what to do. Is there something that can be done?

By Spells I'm assuming you mean Robin. I'd say when the opponent catches the fruit its entire character dependent. Robin? Yeah, Robin has great B moves that can pester Pac-Man from afar, but at the same time we can heal off your spells by blocking them with a power pellet or we can just pester you with launched fire hydrants from afar. Now say if someone like Captain Falcon grabs it it basically removes all of his options if he chooses to not throw it.
Now if an opponent's item play is good that can be terrible for us. One of my training partners is really good at rapid aerial z drops when he gets my fruits and god does it make me feel helpless.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Funny you should ask. We just discussed this in the pac-man boards

Minds think alike then. =P

As far as Robin goes, unless the Fruit disappears as quickly as Books do, Robin can theoretically Z-drop the Fruit, catch a used book, throw it, and reclaim the Fruit afterward. Robin could have a Thoron followed immediately by a Thunder Tome after Pac-Man, possibly alongside your now-flying Hydrant, making for some uncomfortable shield pressure while still keeping Pac's main tool as his own.

 

[L9999]

By Spells I'm assuming you mean Robin. I'd say when the opponent catches the fruit its entire character dependent. Robin? Yeah, Robin has great B moves that can pester Pac-Man from afar, but at the same time we can heal off your spells by blocking them with a power pellet or we can just pester you with launched fire hydrants from afar. Now say if someone like Captain Falcon grabs it it basically removes all of his options if he chooses to not throw it.
Now if an opponent's item play is good that can be terrible for us. One of my training partners is really good at rapid aerial z drops when he gets my fruits and god does it make me feel helpless.

Wait, that side B tactic is legit?! I've haven't seen a Pacman use it.

 

[Nu~]

Minds think alike then. =P

As far as Robin goes, unless the Fruit disappears as quickly as Books do, Robin can theoretically Z-drop the Fruit, catch a used book, throw it, and reclaim the Fruit afterward. Robin could have a Thoron followed immediately by a Thunder Tome after Pac-Man, possibly alongside your now-flying Hydrant, making for some uncomfortable shield pressure while still keeping Pac's main tool as his own.

Is now a good time to mention that we can use our down taunt as a crouch to avoid Thoron?

If you were gong to sit back and charge, I would have launched a hydrant at you with fair to force you to shield, roll, or jump around it (all of which can be punished) since it will stop every spell bar Thoron.

If you had the lead, I would keep approaching with hydrants to cover me, but if I had the lead, I would keep taunting under Thoron and healing off of your other spells.

Wait, that side B tactic is legit?! I've haven't seen a Pacman use it.

It's certainly a thing. It's a big reason why it is very hard to beat pacman in a projectile camp war.