Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Dre89]

You know surspingly I ask this question myself. If a yellow rat is said to be top 5 then why is it that not many people use him? Is it because he's hard? Well look at Rosalina, Sheik, and ZSS they're hard to use they have way more representation.

As of pikachu being top 10.

In theorycraft/potential he is

However results+tourney representation more then say otherwise



People complain about zss's up b but because it's default well theirs nothing we can do about. However since mii brawlers Tenshokyaku is optional being a custom and all it can be banned.

And you know how much hate customs get these day's.

So basically yes mii brawler really is the easiest kid in the playground to push down



Because ryu hate's them pellets

That pellet game is too strong for a shoto like ryu.

edit: 9B was just playing the matchup really well was all

I think people don't play Pika because they don't need to. You can win with characters that take far less effort and larger margin for error.

All the other top tiers, (maybe with the exception of ZSS, I don't know how her too well) have abusable binary options. They all have tools which they can use safely from neutral that narrow the amount of options the opponent has in dealing with them. Sheik has needles and fair, Rosa has Luma, Luigi has fireballs, Sonic has speed and sideb etc. These options are all safe and immediately limit what the opponent can do in response.

Pikachu doesn't really have anything like that. Quick attack is arguably the best utility move in the game, but it's not something that limits options by nature. Pika's strength comes more from his abundance of viable options at any given time, and the reward he gets from them. That playstyle is harder to optimise because he's more reliant on outsmarting his opponent, rather than abusing an opponent's lack of options due to an oppressive tool he has.

 

[Ffamran]

how often is actually dashing? from what i've observed, his dashing speed isnt much faster than his walking speed and his options out of a dash arent great. is there something i'm missing?

Depends on the player. Some people love to dash with him, others run, and some would rather take it "slow" with walking. A 1.5 walk speed to a 1.785 run speed might not seem big - it's only a 0.285 - difference, but keep in mind he walks about an average run speed and his run speed is in the 16th fastest. It's not like going from a 0.94 walk speed to a 2.32 run speed like Captain Falcon. Marth's ground speed starts off fast and stays fast like Fox, Little Mac, Greninja, ZSS, Sheik, and Sonic. It's much better than Falco and Brawl Wolf's where they have fast walk speeds, but atrocious run speeds. Initial walk speed and initial dash speed taken into account, Marth is just mobile even if his speed differentials don't seem to be good.

Anyone remember this?

Spoiler

 

[Mr. Johan]

Falchion slays Grima also.

Only if Naga wakes it up. And even then she had to forge it personally to fight Grima, long after Marth was buried six feet under in the now-forgotten lands of Archanea. Marth's just from a different era. Lucina's just lazy.

(How is Marth vs Robin?)

Marth's one of the few that can continuously pester Robin offstage until his Wind Tome runs out, with Bair, so that's a plus. But Marth's gotta bring the fight to Robin, and with Thunder, Jab, stray books, and the size of the Levin Sword, Robin is capable matching point for point with all of Marth's attacks and mobility specs.

If Marth can get inside his Ftilt range, he's golden, but Robin can bounce his light and floaty self right back out at any moment, and force him to come right back in.

 

[Vipermoon]

how often is actually dashing? from what i've observed, his dashing speed isnt much faster than his walking speed and his options out of a dash arent great. is there something i'm missing?

Here's the thing. Marth is almost at crouch level when dashing vs a tall tree when walking. Walking also takes a long time to accelerate to max speed. With that said, walking is really important with Marth but you gotta know when to use it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think there's only been one other Rosalina in top 8 at a national other than dabuz. Why is tge results argument that's used against pikachu not used against Rosalina? At the same time pikachu MU spread isn't as volatile as Rosalina and he has a better recovery edgeguard and mobility. Yet if someone puts Rosalina out of top 5 people scream bloidy murder.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think there's only been one other Rosalina in top 8 at a national other than dabuz. Why is tge results argument that's used against pikachu not used against Rosalina? At the same time pikachu MU spread isn't as volatile as Rosalina and he has a better recovery edgeguard and mobility. Yet if someone puts Rosalina out of top 5 people scream bloidy murder.

I think unlike Pikachu, Rosalina isnt really hard to use, first thing that comes to my mind is Kahngaskan's Parental Bond

 

[TriTails]

I think unlike Pikachu, Rosalina isnt really hard to use, first thing that comes to my mind is Kahngaskan's Parental Bond

Woah wait.

Rosalina isnt really hard to use

The stuffs you see in the net.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Woah wait.


The stuffs you see in the net.

Apart from the technicism of her input and controlling the dummie whats left there? I dont know you point but if it was controlling Rosalina and Luma at the same time that would be like arguing Ryu has a high learning curve just because his inputs...

 

[Jams.]

I think there's only been one other Rosalina in top 8 at a national other than dabuz. Why is tge results argument that's used against pikachu not used against Rosalina? At the same time pikachu MU spread isn't as volatile as Rosalina and he has a better recovery edgeguard and mobility. Yet if someone puts Rosalina out of top 5 people scream bloidy murder.

Rosalina has multiple representatives that place decently well nationally such as Falln and Xaltis. She also has a lot of players that place incredibly well with her at a regional level such as Rayquaza, iGGy, Kirihara, Ikep, RedX, etc. On the other hand, Pikachu basically drops off the map after ESAM. The next best representative that does well at a regional level is Z and maybe CosmicCosmos? Just take a look at the power ranking compilation thread and look for Pikachu; it should paint a pretty clear picture.

Also, I feel like lots of people in this thread see Rosalina out of the top 5. It's mostly players salty about luma and people that only paid attention to ZeRo's first tier list that still place her 2nd or 3rd.

Apart from the technicism of her input and controlling the dummie whats left there? I dont know you point but if it was controlling Rosalina and Luma at the same time that would be like arguing Ryu has a high learning curve just because his inputs...

I mean, basically everyone would agree that Ryu has one of the highest learning curves in the game and his inputs are definitely a factor.

 

[Megamang]

Learning rudimentary control is one thing, learning how to utilize her at the highest level is something that is way harder. Have you won even a regional with R&L? If not, then theres no reason to call her easy when empirical evidence clearly suggests otherwise.


And empirical evidence is really almost the criteria for easy, is it not? After all, if it was easy... people would be collecting their free money.

Right now, most people have trouble making Luma effective, while each character has devised (with varying degrees of success) a plan to dispatch Luma efficiently throughout the match.

 

[TriTails]

Apart from the technicism of her input and controlling the dummie whats left there? I dont know you point but if it was controlling Rosalina and Luma at the same time that would be like arguing Ryu has a high learning curve just because his inputs...

You are severely underestimating 'controlling dummie'.

How you control Luma is a big impact on how you win games with her. Not anyone can just pick her right off the bat and then know when and how to use Luma in specific situations and matchups. Or on how they can keep Luma from dying while also not letting Rosalina take damage.

No other characters fight like her. When playing as Rosalina, you gotta understand how to sync with Luma to utilize her potential. You've got to know when to send Luma out and when to pull it back, so then Luma doesn't get hit by a stupid attack and die.

Rosalina mains may be able to elaborate further tho. I lack the English knowledge to put my experience in words.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Rosalina has multiple representatives that place decently well nationally such as Falln and Xaltis. She also has a lot of players that place incredibly well with her at a regional level such as Rayquaza, iGGy, Kirihara, Ikep, RedX, etc. On the other hand, Pikachu basically drops off the map after ESAM. The next best representative that does well at a regional level is Z and maybe CosmicCosmos? Just take a look at the power ranking compilation thread and look for Pikachu; it should paint a pretty clear picture.

Also, I feel like lots of people in this thread see Rosalina out of the top 5. It's mostly players salty about luma and people that only paid attention to ZeRo's first tier list that still place her 2nd or 3rd.




I mean, basically everyone would agree that Ryu has one of the highest learning curves in the game and his inputs are definitely a factor.

I'm not going to take anything away from the other Rosalina but it's a large drop from them and dabuz. I'd like to see Rayquaza vs some of the other high level players.

Lack of representation doesn't mean a character is lacking.

 

[Jams.]

@ Shaya , for your aerial safety on shield thread, do your numbers already take the 7 shield drop frames into consideration? If not, ROB's autocancel nair being +1 on shield is ridiculous. With that kind of frame advantage, ROB wouldn't need to space his nair at all and full hop->ff ac nair would actually be legitimate shield pressure.

 

[Shaya]

Just take a look at the power ranking compilation thread and look for Pikachu; it should paint a pretty clear picture.

I legitimately did the same thing a couple of weeks back the last time the Rosa vs Pika came up. It wasn't as bad as I expected for total number of PR'd Pikas vs Rosas (only about 40% of Rosa), but still quite a large gap and I looked at each Pikachu and there were almost zero Pikachu mains (usually coming up with someone else next to their name) and a hyper majority of them [all bar 3?] were not highly ranked in their PRs.
By that time I had done that though the conversation already went somewhere and I thought the pika-supporters had considered their resolves after the one-sided debate already; apparently not. Or at least not after "ZeRo confirmation" came in....

Despite almost no character having multiple representation at top level bar Sheik and Ness (!) [even at high level there are only multiple Sonics, Zero Suits, Diddys, Foxes and Luigi] there's Pikachu with nothing strong above local level, in fact on average, POORLY at local level still, with ESAM at the top. The "potential" or overall power level of Quick Attack for pushing Pikachu may be enough to make him top five, but honestly I really really really doubt it. From what we've seen at top level thus far, have almost always done better as well (i.e. on nearly all bar ONE occasion)

@ Shaya , for your aerial safety on shield thread, do your numbers already take the 7 shield drop frames into consideration? If not, ROB's autocancel nair being +1 on shield is ridiculous. With that kind of frame advantage, ROB wouldn't need to space his nair at all and full hop->ff ac nair would actually be legitimate shield pressure.

It's pure disadvantage frames, no shield locking or dropping frames included.
And auto cancels with long hitbox durations can be quite difficult to auto cancel to gain those advantages. IIRC the final hits of it is behind his head isn't it?

Sonic's up air being a guaranteed neutral on shield if you hit with the second strike is pretty amazing though.

 

[TriTails]

It's pure disadvantage frames, no shield locking or dropping frames included.
And auto cancels with long hitbox durations can be quite difficult to auto cancel to gain those advantages. IIRC the final hits of it is behind his head isn't it?

Sonic's up air being a guaranteed neutral on shield if you hit with the second strike is pretty amazing though.

Wait. No shield dropping frames?

Wouldn't that make Luigi's F-air -3 on shield?

Does this also counts in shieldstun?

If not, well... thank God for a godly F-air lol.

Spoiler

Luigi doesn't even get that much representation. J. Miller hasn't been taking names lately, False dropping Luigi, Boss only attends Xanadu (No CEO or EVO either). That only leave Mr. CC as a national level Luigi player.

 

[Jams.]

It's pure disadvantage frames, no shield locking or dropping frames included.
And auto cancels with long hitbox durations can be quite difficult to auto cancel to gain those advantages. IIRC the final hits of it is behind his head isn't it?

Sonic's up air being a guaranteed neutral on shield if you hit with the second strike is pretty amazing though.

It was behind his head in Brawl, but I'm fairly certain the final hit of ROB's nair is in front of and below him in this game, which is useable. Just looking at his animation in training mode in 1/2 hold L, he no longer does a complete 360. While getting +1 on shield every time is completely infeasible, the fact that perfect AC is +1 gives ROB a lot of wiggle room. Anything -3 or less means rob can beat a 6 frame shieldgrab with his jab or dtilt

 

[Routa]

I think Rosa is like Ike. Both are very basic characters with nothing special going on. They are both low skill lvl slayers. But... On mid and high lvl they are a lot harder to use 'cause of other characters get a lot better when jumping up in skill lvl.

Yeah I'm not good at explaining, but I hope you get what I mean.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Who? Pretty much every character I think up I can think up another just about as bad or worse.

She's the worst MU of a lot of chars but not undoable like sonic, rosa, and luigi are to others.

R.O.B. versus Zero Suit is a matchup I would call "undoable". Same with Bowser vs. ZSS.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think there's only been one other Rosalina in top 8 at a national other than dabuz. Why is tge results argument that's used against pikachu not used against Rosalina? At the same time pikachu MU spread isn't as volatile as Rosalina and he has a better recovery edgeguard and mobility. Yet if someone puts Rosalina out of top 5 people scream bloidy murder.

This post would've made sense if you had said "Mario" instead of "Rosalina".

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This post would've made sense if you had said "Mario" instead of "Rosalina".

It holds true for a lot of characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It holds true for a lot of characters.

Rosalina not really being one of those.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Rosalina not really being one of those.

I disagree unless you know a Rosalina that I'm unaware of but there's a pretty significant gap between dabuz and the rest of the Rosalina players.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I disagree unless you know a Rosalina that I'm unaware of but there's a pretty significant gap between dabuz and the rest of the Rosalina players.

... Ikep wins a tourney in the Kansai region beating players like Ranai. Kirihara places 9th like 3 or 4 times in a row in the Kanto area. Xaltis is like ranked top 5 [?] in FL, falln top 10 in Cali and dabuz needs no further introduction. In other words, the 5 strongest regions in the world all have a Rosalina among their top 10, if not top 5.

And since you're talking about a gap ... I wonder which gap is actually bigger, the one between dabuz and the next best Rosalina player [probably Kirihara?] or the gap between Esam and the next best Pikachu player [whoever that may be at this point] ...? I think we both know the answer to this question.

So it should be pretty obvious why the arguments against Pikachu do NOT apply against Rosalina.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

... Ikep wins a tourney in the Kansai region beating players like Ranai. Kirihara places 9th like 3 or 4 times in a row in the Kanto area. Xaltis is like ranked top 5 [?] in FL, falln top 10 in Cali and dabuz needs no further introduction. In other words, the 5 strongest regions in the world all have a Rosalina among their top 10, if not top 5.

And since you're talking about a gap ... I wonder which gap is actually bigger, the one between dabuz and the next best Rosalina player [probably Kirihara?] or the gap between Esam and the next best Pikachu player [whoever that may be at this point] ...? I think we both know the answer to this question.

So it should be pretty obvious why the arguments against Pikachu do NOT apply against Rosalina.

I don't believe Xaltis is top 5 in FL. Ikep beat ranai which is an accomplishment however what has he done since then? I do believe ranai has beaten him since that tournament.

Esam and then Nakat for Pikachu. I don't think the gap is too different from Rosalina actually. Also one of those top regions has a pikachu sitting at the top of it.

Despite how great dabuz is he's second best in his region. I don't believe there's a rosalina that is considered the best in their region. Maybe rayquaza.

 

[wedl!!]

Honestly the more I see Peach/Sheik the more it seems that Peach doesn't get totally mauled. I'll say it's even when SlayerZ or whoever else does well against Zero.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm not going to take anything away from the other Rosalina but it's a large drop from them and dabuz. I'd like to see Rayquaza vs some of the other high level players.

Lack of representation doesn't mean a character is lacking.

You'll be able to see it Saturday for Rebirth V, a regional. I hear ZeRo is going to it, along with people like Ally and Zinoto.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You'll be able to see it Saturday for Rebirth V, a regional. I hear ZeRo is going to it, along with people like Ally and Zinoto.

Wasn't ZeRo like, skipping basically everything until The Big House or something like that or did I miss something? It'd be nice to see him there for real.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think Rosa is like Ike. Both are very basic characters with nothing special going on. They are both low skill lvl slayers. But... On mid and high lvl they are a lot harder to use 'cause of other characters get a lot better when jumping up in skill lvl.

Yeah I'm not good at explaining, but I hope you get what I mean.

Except rosa has Luma to control, which makes her a puppet character, very much unlike Ike who is "spacing teacher 101: the character."

 

[outfoxd]

Wasn't ZeRo like, skipping basically everything until The Big House or something like that or did I miss something? It'd be nice to see him there for real.

Somehow we pulled him in.

Of course i can't make this one.

 

[wedl!!]

Ike and Rosalina? That's like comparing a peanut butter sandwich to a gourmet meal.

 

[TriTails]

Both are very basic characters with nothing special going on. They are both low skill lvl slayer.

Maybe Ike, but definitely not Rosalina. Rosalina is absolutely NOWHERE near basic. And how do you even write 'nothing special' when Rosalina very very very clearly has Luma I have no clue.

You wanna compare Rosalina to someone? Probably Shulk or Peach. Even then, comparing characters are a flawed thing to do unless you're comparing Lucina to Marth or DPit to Dark Pit. Even comparing Doc to Mario seem to be a little off at this point.

But comparing Ike to Rosalina is like comparing... uh... Jigglypuff to Bowser. Both are basically the opposite of the other. Comparing them simply doesn't work.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Who wants to help out a Smashboards writer, get credit on the front page, AND encourage discussion here?

Outside of the players in the US I already know about I'm trying to get information on some of the players from JAPAN who are entering Umebure FAT. The characters they use, cool matchups we may see, the big threats. anyone think they can help me out? (Not knowing Japanese sucks ;~; )

 

[Zelder]

If Rosalina is a "basic" character then that word means nothing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Who wants to help out a Smashboards writer, get credit on the front page, AND encourage discussion here?

Outside of the players in the US I already know about I'm trying to get information on some of the players from JAPAN who are entering Umebure FAT. The characters they use, cool matchups we may see, the big threats. anyone think they can help me out? (Not knowing Japanese sucks ;~; )

What in particular do you wanna know?

 

[L9999]

I think Rosa is like Ike. Both are very basic characters with nothing special going on. They are both low skill lvl slayers. But... On mid and high lvl they are a lot harder to use 'cause of other characters get a lot better when jumping up in skill lvl.

Yeah I'm not good at explaining, but I hope you get what I mean.

You are right that you are not very good explaining. Me neither. But Rosalina isn't basic at all. You have to control a sluggish woman made out of glass at the same time you manage a fragile but OP star and prevent getting it killed as well as the sluggish woman made out of glass. Luma just has a lot of crap to learn about, things like it's BS hitboxes like UTilt and Jab 3, shooting it out at the right time and to **** shields at the edge, doing wombo combos, Lunar landing, using Luma's aerials specifically for stuff instead of Rosalina for comboing, escaping grabs using Luma, catching people offguard, knowing the distance of Luma to know if you will OHKO people at 80% or do roof kills, etc. And that is just Luma. Rosalina has some BS of her own. And like I mentioned, she is kinda sluggish, very light, can't land at all, has an exploitable recovery and she has to manage Luma and herself. I guess she is easier to learn than Ice Climbers, but still really technical and completely different to everyone in Smash 4.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Honestly the more I see Peach/Sheik the more it seems that Peach doesn't get totally mauled. I'll say it's even when SlayerZ or whoever else does well against Zero.

Her bair seems to do wonders in that match since its quick. I wonder if it trades in her favor. I'm starting to treat it like sheik's fair in matches since its quick and safe. I wonder if that match up can possibly be even with more research.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm just curious... How big of a disjoint does Shiek's Fair have? Or was the whole thing cooked up by salty players?

 

[Jucchan]

Who wants to help out a Smashboards writer, get credit on the front page, AND encourage discussion here?

Outside of the players in the US I already know about I'm trying to get information on some of the players from JAPAN who are entering Umebure FAT. The characters they use, cool matchups we may see, the big threats. anyone think they can help me out? (Not knowing Japanese sucks ;~; )

I can help since I know Japanese. You can find the list of participants here (not final): http://kokucheese.com/event/subscriptions/322716/ http://kokucheese.com/event/subscriptions/322714/
Top Japanese threats in no particular order, my personal opinion of course:
Ranai
Edge
Komorikiri
Saiya
Rain
Abadango
Choco
Shu
Earth
Kirihara
DtN|Nietono

Players that have a decent shot a placing high and are likely of interest to a western audience due to their character/popularity
Brood
Umeki
taranito
Pichi
Daiki
Songun
Salena
Kamemushi
Nasubi
Some
Ginko
Kie
Hayato
9B

It looks like a lot, but it's necessary because of how unpredictable Japanese tournaments are. I could have listed a lot more players but it probably wouldn't look so interesting on the front page because it's mostly Sheik and Sonic (Nyanko, J!, Sylph, KEN, etc.) FAT will also have doubles and a crew battle.

 

[LiteralGrill]

What in particular do you wanna know?

Basically @ Jucchan gave me enough to work into something awesome already

Thanks a ton man. If you have a Twitter or something PM it to me and I'll mention it in the article for the help :D

 

[Froggy]

I don't buy for a minute that Wario and Peach are better than Pacman.