Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Sneak Sneaks]

Isnt everyone's worst MU Sheik? (including Sheik)

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Ryu gives no ****s about her.

j/k. but she has to outplay him ton win and vice versa. no nonsense. ryu is king of shutting down nonsense.

 

[Locke 06]

Look at the match and tell me if im being sarcastic.

You expect too much out of the people in this thread. How're they supposed to see that when 9B lands a 40% combo and JV 2-stocks Nga game 1?

Also, I wanna wager that Kirby is his worst MU atm. Gets more out of his cr. MK than Ryu does and outspaces cr. Lk. Wins fireball wars post-inhale.


But less people play Kirby than mii so whatever.

 

[Wintropy]

Isnt everyone's worst MU Sheik? (including Sheik)

No.

Sheik has good to even matchups with everybody, but it's unfair to say that she's every character's absolute poorest matchup. Pit (yeeeeah you knew this was coming) struggles more with ZSS and Pikachu, in my opinion. I don't think his matchup with Sheik is good, per se, but it isn't "instantly bodied" territory; more so "do your best to play to your strengths and it may be okay in the end".

Is Sheik anybody's worst matchup? Sincere question.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Then why would someone consider Megaman his worst matchup if on the battle you can see it was a little even?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You expect too much out of the people in this thread. How're they supposed to see that when 9B lands a 40% combo and JV 2-stocks Nga game 1?

Also, I wanna wager that Kirby is his worst MU atm. Gets more out of his cr. MK than Ryu does and outspaces cr. Lk. Wins fireball wars post-inhale.


But less people play Kirby than mii so whatever.

Kirby isnt scary enough and has no tools that scare Ryu in neutral. And he dies at 65.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

No.

Sheik has good to even matchups with everybody, but it's unfair to say that she's every character's absolute poorest matchup. Pit (yeeeeah you knew this was coming) struggles more with ZSS and Pikachu, in my opinion. I don't think his matchup with Sheik is good, per se, but it isn't "instantly bodied" territory; more so "do your best to play to your strengths and it may be okay in the end".

Is Sheik anybody's worst matchup? Sincere question.

As far as I know Sheik is Megaman's worst matchup and she is one of the few unwinnable ones, because other hard matchups Megaman has arent so bad

 

[Sir Tundra]

Um do people forget NAKAT when talking about Pikachu? He's not ESAM-level, I know, but he does well with the mouse when he pulls it out over Ness or Fox. He was even going toe-to-toe with ZeRo at SSC, even though he ended up not taking a game off of him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19ZpbUPl28g

NAKAT's Pika also beat Mr. R once some months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzXyOiyojeM

I don't know why more people don't pick this character up. You'd think a character that's been top or high tier in every game and has such great mobility, recovery and combos would be more popular, but you don't see many people playing the rat. Strange.

I can see why Pikachu wouldn't be the 2nd best like ZeRo and ESAM say with his mediocre kill setups and supposed problems in the Luigi matchup, but I think that saying that he isn't solo viable or in the top 10 at least is going too far.

You know surspingly I ask this question myself. If a yellow rat is said to be top 5 then why is it that not many people use him? Is it because he's hard? Well look at Rosalina, Sheik, and ZSS they're hard to use they have way more representation.

As of pikachu being top 10.

In theorycraft/potential he is

However results+tourney representation more then say otherwise

Maybe if there was a anti-mii front page article, their legality wouldn't be an issue (SARCASM). It just doesn't make sense that ZSS has almost a very similar up B yet, no one ever complains about it.

People complain about zss's up b but because it's default well theirs nothing we can do about. However since mii brawlers Tenshokyaku is optional being a custom and all it can be banned.

And you know how much hate customs get these day's.

So basically yes mii brawler really is the easiest kid in the playground to push down

Then why would someone consider Megaman his worst matchup if on the battle you can see it was a little even?

Because ryu hate's them pellets

That pellet game is too strong for a shoto like ryu.

edit: 9B was just playing the matchup really well was all

 

[Planty]

No.

Sheik has good to even matchups with everybody, but it's unfair to say that she's every character's absolute poorest matchup. Pit (yeeeeah you knew this was coming) struggles more with ZSS and Pikachu, in my opinion. I don't think his matchup with Sheik is good, per se, but it isn't "instantly bodied" territory; more so "do your best to play to your strengths and it may be okay in the end".

Is Sheik anybody's worst matchup? Sincere question.

Olimar gets bodied by Sheik. It's undoubtedly a -2 and almost definitely a -3. Little Mac I hear has something like a 95:5 matchup vs her, but I assume that it's exaggerated a bit. I would imagine that all the characters that rely heavily on projectiles hate her.

 

[Wintropy]

As far as I know Sheik is Megaman's worst matchup and she is one of the few unwinnable ones, because other hard matchups Megaman has arent so bad

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying that!

I respect the notion that Sheik is some characters' worst matchup, but we have to remember that having a winnable matchup with the entire roster doesn't equate to defeating the entire roster instantly. She still has to put the effort in. She has the best tools for the job, but just because the hammer is going to hit the nail doesn't mean the nail can't hit back.

 

[Locke 06]

Kirby isnt scary enough and has no tools that scare Ryu in neutral. And he dies at 65.

is what I thought until Kirby sits and crouches.

And then the game becomes SUPER LAME because now you have no tools that scare Kirby in neutral. You can only dtilt/dsmash, come down with an aerial that's not BAir, or space an overhead that leads to... nothing.

Kirby has dtilt in neutral. And if he takes Hado, he forces approaches forever. He also controls when he comes out of crouch and everyone has options.

You can't focus attack crouching kirby... you can't even TSRK crouching/dtilt'ing Kirby. Ryu can't punish him for pushing buttons unless he catches his foot out with a dsmash otherwise he clashes/trades. The only way you get to TSRK him is by Aerial>TSRK or cr.lk XX TSRK which are too hard to land.

Competent Kirby v Ryu is an exercise of futility imo.

 

[Planty]

is what I thought until Kirby sits and crouches.

And then the game becomes SUPER LAME because now you have no tools that scare Kirby in neutral. You can only dtilt/dsmash, come down with an aerial that's not BAir, or space an overhead that leads to... nothing.

Kirby has dtilt in neutral. And if he takes Hado, he forces approaches forever. He also controls when he comes out of crouch and everyone has options.

You can't focus attack crouching kirby... you can't even TSRK crouching/dtilt'ing Kirby. Ryu can't punish him for pushing buttons unless he catches his foot out with a dsmash otherwise he clashes/trades. The only way you get to TSRK him is by Aerial>TSRK or cr.lk XX TSRK which are too hard to land.

Competent Kirby v Ryu is an exercise of futility imo.

Sounds like it's just a really long game of patience where Ryu has to win half the confrontations that Kirby wins to take the stock. if you hate patience then I guess this would be terrible, but I can't see Ryu losing.

 

[Jaguar360]

No.

Sheik has good to even matchups with everybody, but it's unfair to say that she's every character's absolute poorest matchup. Pit (yeeeeah you knew this was coming) struggles more with ZSS and Pikachu, in my opinion. I don't think his matchup with Sheik is good, per se, but it isn't "instantly bodied" territory; more so "do your best to play to your strengths and it may be okay in the end".

Is Sheik anybody's worst matchup? Sincere question.

Definitely Greninja's worst. Fox is a competitor, but Sheik is generally agreed to be harder or as hard for Greninja.

Sheik is probably Yoshi's worst as well, if not Rosalina.

 

[Emblem Lord]

is what I thought until Kirby sits and crouches.

And then the game becomes SUPER LAME because now you have no tools that scare Kirby in neutral. You can only dtilt/dsmash, come down with an aerial that's not BAir, or space an overhead that leads to... nothing.

Kirby has dtilt in neutral. And if he takes Hado, he forces approaches forever. He also controls when he comes out of crouch and everyone has options.

You can't focus attack crouching kirby... you can't even TSRK crouching/dtilt'ing Kirby. Ryu can't punish him for pushing buttons unless he catches his foot out with a dsmash otherwise he clashes/trades. The only way you get to TSRK him is by Aerial>TSRK or cr.lk XX TSRK which are too hard to land.

Competent Kirby v Ryu is an exercise of futility imo.

Since Kirby can't punish spaced d-smash on block i dont see the issue. 16% move that beats all his buttons. I'm ok with it.

 

[Planty]

Definitely Greninja's worst. Fox is a competitor, but Sheik is generally agreed to be harder or as hard for Greninja.

Sheik is probably Yoshi's worst as well, if not Rosalina.

It's odd how many Yoshi mains think Rosalina does well VS him, while many Rosalina mains think they lose the matchup. Does this happen with any other matchups in the game?

 

[Xeze]

Isnt everyone's worst MU Sheik? (including Sheik)

Sheik isn't Mario's worst MU, he is actually one of the few that does okay against her. For Mario I'd say Luigi is the worst MU.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sheik's generally the worst MU of two types of characters.

1: Turtle/Campy which she tends to outdo them at their own game with needles.
2: Combo/Aggro which she tends to outdo them at their own game with fair.

Edit: To be more specific since it sounds kind of like I'm just stating the two main playstyles, I'm talking about how if they're campy and can't deal with needles or aggro and can't deal with fair/edgeguards.

 

[Green L]

Mii mains want to "customize" their moves but in reality, every brawler will only choose helicopter kick and feint jump. I've never seen a brawler main use burning dropkick, soaring Axe kick , or head on assault.

 

[DunnoBro]

I've never seen a brawler main use burning dropkick, soaring Axe kick , or head on assault.

I'm surprised you've seen brawlers at all

 

[Greward]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying that!

I respect the notion that Sheik is some characters' worst matchup, but we have to remember that having a winnable matchup with the entire roster doesn't equate to defeating the entire roster instantly. She still has to put the effort in. She has the best tools for the job, but just because the hammer is going to hit the nail doesn't mean the nail can't hit back.

Mario is worse than Sheik for Mega Man.
Sheik is usually a very bad matchup for most of the cast but they got other ones.
If you want an example of Sheik being the worst matchup, it's Luigi. Olimar too probably, he can't do **** at the MU.

 

[Ffamran]

I just realized that Ryu can't angle his light Ftilt or Side Smash. I know that's just how they work in Street Fighter, but it would have been a neat thing for Ryu to have control over where he can Ftilt or Side Smash. Plus, it makes logical sense.

Imagine if Ganondorf could angle his Ftilt. Angled up Ftilt would be hella scary as an anti-air.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Mario is worse than Sheik for Mega Man.
Sheik is usually a very bad matchup for most of the cast but they got other ones.
If you want an example of Sheik being the worst matchup, it's Luigi. Olimar too probably, he can't do **** at the MU.

I think that saying Mario is worse than Sheik for Megaman is not set in stone, Marios combos are great but we can set distance with pellets and cape isnt as scary onceyou cobdition your opponent and it is very punishable. Sheiks down b tho..

 

[Zannabluke]

another great set by 9B

 

[Nobie]

I know people in here tend to be all about the viability, and seeing which characters can win tournaments or place top 8 or whatever, but doesn't it feel pretty good to look at the (perceived) bottom of the roster and think, "You know, there are some pretty even matchups with the folks up top" instead of...this...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM)

 

[BSP]

You realize this is ryus worst match-up right?

How do you feel Ryu performs vs. Pac-Man? I'm cheap and didn't get the DLC, so I can't go lab any stuff against him myself.

 

[Jandlebars]

I know people in here tend to be all about the viability, and seeing which characters can win tournaments or place top 8 or whatever, but doesn't it feel pretty good to look at the (perceived) bottom of the roster and think, "You know, there are some pretty even matchups with the folks up top" instead of...this...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM)

I think at least part of the problem with Melee's horrible match-up for those characters is because it's a game that has a high ceiling for advanced technical play, but was never balanced in such a way to accommodate it.

Since the technical parts of Smash 4 were accounted for before -- and after -- its release, there's less room for even the current top-tier characters to outshine the others on just technical execution itself. Shiek's current dominance can't match to the sovereignty of Fox's meta now, because the former can't push the boundaries of technical execution like the latter can.

It goes without saying at this point that there are still polarizing match-ups in Smash 4, but there's not really too many that are really 'freebies' like there were in Melee. It remains to be seen if further patches will improve or botch this up, though.

 

[Nu~]

Isnt everyone's worst MU Sheik? (including Sheik)

Many Pac-Mains thought she was at least 30:70 for Pac-Man at first, but then people finally realized that hydrant > needles + weak sheik attacks. The only moves she can use to knock it away in one hit are fsmash and vanish which can both be heavily punished. We may be one of the only characters that can effectively play the zoning game against sheik. For the record, Abadango thinks the matchup is even.

As of now, we don't know really know what our worse matchup is. Some say campy wario because of bite, but we shouldn't be playing a long range game against him anyway considering the strength of our mid range (especially with a fruit in hand) where bite can be baited and punished. Others say lucario can be bad because of our lack of a reliable kill confirm...but considering that we have an enormous amount of situational kill confirms, killing shouldn't be enough of an issue for us to straight up lose the matchup.

I would say our worst matchup is rosa which is only a 40:60 at worst. Pellet healing is the truth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How do you feel Ryu performs vs. Pac-Man? I'm cheap and didn't get the DLC, so I can't go lab any stuff against him myself.

idk. Zage thinks pac wins but idk. Pac cant kill worth a damn so Ryu is basically gonna get angry every stock and gain the full power of the Satsui no Hadou. Rage shoryus gonna be killing at 60%. And Pac cant outbutton Ryu. He HAS to run or Ryu messes him up. But fruit has alot of counter play to it and I havent mastered using fruit against pac so i dont wanna say for sure.

match is fun as hell though.

 

[T4ylor]

I know people in here tend to be all about the viability, and seeing which characters can win tournaments or place top 8 or whatever, but doesn't it feel pretty good to look at the (perceived) bottom of the roster and think, "You know, there are some pretty even matchups with the folks up top" instead of...this...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM)

I'd imagine ours could look similar to that, but definitely not now, with everyone overrating their low tier mains.

 

[BSP]

The only moves she can use to knock it away in one hit are fsmash and vanish which can both be heavily punished.

Vanish doesn't instant launch either. Partially charged Usmash from her will, but then she's committing to Usmash in neutral. I'll take that.

idk. Zage thinks pac wins but idk. Pac cant kill worth a damn so Ryu is basically gonna get angry every stock and gain the full power of the Satsui no Hadou. Rage shoryus gonna be killing at 60%. And Pac cant outbutton Ryu. He HAS to run or Ryu messes him up. But fruit has alot of counter play to it and I havent mastered using fruit against pac so i dont wanna say for sure.

match is fun as hell though.

Definitely agree on Pac-Man having to run. TBH I foresee Pac-Man camping the ledge for 6 minutes since trying to box with Ryu without a grab is a death sentence. Ryu can't hadoken Pac-Man without him healing off of it easily, so I'd expect constant air pressure. In theory land I can see the effectiveness of Pac-Man's camping in the MU, but Ryu has silly damage per hit and KOs at 60% off of jabs...and like you said, he will be getting rage each stock. I need to see it play out, but I know I will be timing out any competent Ryu I run into.

Edit: trampoline probably pulls him out of focus attack. Nothing MU defining, but something to note.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's odd how many Yoshi mains think Rosalina does well VS him, while many Rosalina mains think they lose the matchup. Does this happen with any other matchups in the game?

I don't think so, Yoshi gets rid of luma so easy and juggles Rosalina back to the stars, only thing that sucks is when you're above rosalina but then again that's a thing for pretty much every character cause of her dumb Uair.

Fox mains thought Yoshi beat him -3 in the early days. Some of us feel sword characters like Marth or Ike gives Yoshi a hard time, Raptor thought -3 for us against marth at first when he was a tad salty over a loss lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Vanish doesn't instant launch either. Partially charged Usmash from her will, but then she's committing to Usmash in neutral. I'll take that.



Definitely agree on Pac-Man having to run. TBH I foresee Pac-Man camping the ledge for 6 minutes since trying to box with Ryu without a grab is a death sentence. Ryu can't hadoken Pac-Man without him healing off of it easily, so I'd expect constant air pressure. In theory land I can see the effectiveness of Pac-Man's camping in the MU, but Ryu has silly damage per hit and KOs at 60% off of jabs...and like you said, he will be getting rage each stock. I need to see it play out, but I know I will be timing out any competent Ryu I run into.

Edit: trampoline probably pulls him out of focus attack. Nothing MU defining, but something to note.

...

LESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOO.

In the dojo..lets do it. Ryu vs Pac

 

[Asdioh]

is what I thought until Kirby sits and crouches.

And then the game becomes SUPER LAME because now you have no tools that scare Kirby in neutral. You can only dtilt/dsmash, come down with an aerial that's not BAir, or space an overhead that leads to... nothing.

Kirby has dtilt in neutral. And if he takes Hado, he forces approaches forever. He also controls when he comes out of crouch and everyone has options.

You can't focus attack crouching kirby... you can't even TSRK crouching/dtilt'ing Kirby. Ryu can't punish him for pushing buttons unless he catches his foot out with a dsmash otherwise he clashes/trades. The only way you get to TSRK him is by Aerial>TSRK or cr.lk XX TSRK which are too hard to land.

Competent Kirby v Ryu is an exercise of futility imo.

That's what I thought until I played a ton of games with EL. It was wifi, so that's a thing, but Dtilt doesn't autowin. If you miss, he can whiff punish with Dtilt or Dsmash, which hurts. Full Rage TSRK can actually kill Kirby below 60%, so that's getting nerfed in 13 days pretty painful. The matchup's pretty even imo, you can't realistically expect to crouch everything forever, Ryu's Dtilt and Dsmash outrange Kirby's, and their speed is unreactable, so it's basically a guessing game that you're not guaranteed to win every time. Utilt and Dtilt still combo into Shoyuken. Ryu still has massive damage output per hit and kills extremely early, so the matchup will never be easy. However, Kirby has not only crouch, but also a ton of multihit moves to beat FA, or even fast tilts you can use multiple times to beat FA, and he combos Ryu quite well. He also has an amazing edgeguarding tool in Stone. Once again, that move is not a gimmick... I'm not sure if its speed got buffed in 4 compared to the older games, but I think it has. Either way, it's easy enough to hit Ryu out of Tatsumaki/Shoryuken with it. That makes Kirby unusually good at edgeguarding Ryu, which is normally difficult because of all the invincibility and giant hitboxes. With that said, buff Kirby thx bye

 

[Jucchan]

Neat Umeki vs Vinnie set.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I don't think so, Yoshi gets rid of luma so easy and juggles Rosalina back to the stars, only thing that sucks is when you're above rosalina but then again that's a thing for pretty much every character cause of her dumb Uair.

Fox mains thought Yoshi beat him -3 in the early days. Some of us feel sword characters like Marth or Ike gives Yoshi a hard time, Raptor thought -3 for us against marth at first when he was a tad salty over a loss lol.

Do you think Marth stands chance against Yoshi?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth kinda sorta eats yoshi. Stands a chance is an understatement.

 

[Ffamran]

Falchion was made to slay dragons and apparently, Yoshi is kind of a dragon, so... yeah... Y'know, that would also extend to the Sword of Seals. Both swords do bonus damage on dragons and/or manaketes, basically dragonkin. Welp, thankfully, Bowser and Bower Jr. aren't part-dragon; they're part-turtles.

Anyway, from a standpoint of what Marth does: spacing with disjoints and disjoints in general, Yoshi kind of will have trouble when Yoshi's Fair is going to get outsped by Marth's everything. Don't know what Egg Toss will do to Marth since his mobility will allow him some leeway of advancing forward even with a long initial dash length.

 

[Smog Frog]

how often is actually dashing? from what i've observed, his dashing speed isnt much faster than his walking speed and his options out of a dash arent great. is there something i'm missing?

 

[TriTails]

Falchion slays Grima also. Robin would've been rekt'd if he still has connection to Grima .
(How is Marth vs Robin?)

how often is actually dashing? from what i've observed, his dashing speed isnt much faster than his walking speed and his options out of a dash arent great. is there something i'm missing?

I dash with Marth all the time but I'm 99% sure I'm not doing it right.

Although, Marth's walk accel is terrible, so you probably won't be seeing much of Ike or Kirby dashing at the same pace as Marth's walk.

That said. Marth has good F-tilt and kinda bad DA, so that's a plus.

 

[Sir Tundra]

The falcion can also slay charizard if charizard used the charizardnite X
I'm curious about the marth vs lizardon matchup.

I know people in here tend to be all about the viability, and seeing which characters can win tournaments or place top 8 or whatever, but doesn't it feel pretty good to look at the (perceived) bottom of the roster and think, "You know, there are some pretty even matchups with the folks up top" instead of...this...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM)

Mid - Bottom tiers have it better now

Back in the melee days if you weren't Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Hungrypuff, Peach, Falcon, Ice climbers, Pikachu, or samus?

You might as well sit back down.

Your chance of even placing high in tournaments are so slim due to the amount of bad matchup's you'd have.

It isn't even worth using any of the character's that aren't even mentioned.

Then again let's be honest in melee the only character's that even win a national are Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, and Puff. All the other characters mentioned can at least win a regional.