Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

Ironically Some places higher than Rain, who knocked him into losers in the first place.

Predictably, Some loses to Nietono.

In a Sheik-less meta, Greninja is looking like a serious threat.

Sadly Sheik exists to keep him at bay.

Seriously, the only non-Sheik that Some has lost to at recent Umeburas is Daiki's Diddy. Everyone else he's lost to have been Sheik players.

 

[Teshie U]

winners finals is about to be zss vs zss

o.O

 

[Djent]

But just remember...she's not #2.

 

[HFlash]

So..... 9B's Ryu has taken out 2 of our 3 NA representatives. Street Fighter is truly a Japanese game.

 

[bc1910]

But just remember...she's not #2.

Dude, she has to reach the peak of her short hop before she can use aerials against ground level opponents. This matters. She's totally balanced.

/s

 

[Shaya]

To be fair, Choco got to play easy match ups we win all the way into winner's finals

And ZSS meta keeps developing. Yes, that's a true "issue", but of course if all we're thinking of is how to get into the air for free to alleviate it, it brings results~
Even Nairo has quoted the same weakness (yay ATA). For "some reason" it looked like nairo was full hopping and or early double jumping a lot, mixed in sh ADs from time to time. Zaha, using mix ups to alleviate our issues, other characters need to develop faster too IMO.

Nairo is asserting the fact he's on a separate level to a hyper majority of players. NA meta has been focusing on taking down giants for too long rather than developing character's optimal game plans like the Japanese have shown us. We like to get slapped in the face, it builds a furor to advance even faster yet

 

[Nu~]

Who did abadingdong lose to anyway?

 

[Browny]

Goodbye boost kick, you will not be missed.

Pretty sure Nairos last kill confirms its as good as gone next patch

 

[ぱみゅ]

inb4Sheik does not get nerfed, but ZSS and Sonic do.

And Abadango lost to Nyanko and Sakasaka.

 

[T4ylor]

Who did abadingdong lose to anyway?

He lost to Nyanko and Sakasaka (also took out Ranai). Both Sheiks.

 

[Djent]

Umebura FAT Results are up at the Compendium, but here they are for the lazy:

Spoiler

1) Nairo (undefeated)
2) Komorikiri (lost to Nairo twice)
3) Choco (lost to Nairo and Komorikiri)
4) Kirihara (lost to Choco and Komorikiri)
5) Edge (lost to Nairo and Kirihara)
5) 9B (lost to Nairo and Komorikiri)
7) Ally (lost to Komorikiri and 9B)
7) Sakasaka (lost to Nairo and Edge)
9) Earth (lost to Komorikiri and Sakasaka)
9) Vinnie (lost to Choco and 9B)
9) Nietono (lost to Choco and Edge)
9) Nyanko (lost to Kirihara and Ally)

Who did abadingdong lose to anyway?

Nyanko and Sakasaka (both )
...and before you ask, Ginko lost to Ranai and 9B.

 

[Smog Frog]

the calls for nerfs come like clockwork
zero also got boost kicked at levels above where komorikiri did, but he lived because he di'd straight to the side. i bet komorikiri could have lived those.

 

[Nu~]

Figures.
It puzzles me how Abadango beats rain and shu, then loses to Nyanko and Sakasaka.

Inconsistent as usual ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Man I wish Dee went to offline tourneys

 

[ぱみゅ]

The whole tournament was full of inconsistencies from a lot of players, some like Umeki, Sakasaka and Gomamugicha destroyed the Losers' Bracket (and to some extent 9B, but he is a different story as he only lost to Nairo and later to Komorikiri).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No one is talking about casual level play. She has a higher floor than most characters at that level because controlling Luma is different to controlling a conventional character.

No one is also saying that she's easy to win with in high level play. Regardless of who you use, you need high level fundamentals to succeed at that level.

What I am saying however, is that a high level she's more basic than other top tiers because controlling Luma is more basic than controlling an actual character effectively at that level of play.

Another factor is that a lot of her strength is passive because Luma invalidates so many options by simply existing. For example a Luma standing in front of Rosa ruins Diddy's nana game in neutral. That's a huge portion of a character's meta that is invalidated without Rosa having to do anything.

Again, compare the movement and commands Dabuz uses compared to other top players. Other players have to constantly implement dash tech, empty hops, FF aerials and empties, pivoting just to get in on her and Dabuz doesn't have to do that stuff with anywhere near the same frequency to be effective.

Edit- What I'm saying is not to take anything away from Dabuz. The guy is an amazing player and deserves every bit of success he has

I'd really wish you'd stop talking about Rosalina because you haven't gotten a clue. She doesn't have any reliable kill set-ups like zss sheik diddy. She doesn't have any of the mobility of those characters or the frame data and the safety.

Here's the real truth pre oatch diddy was a ridiculous OP character and that matchup was a hard counter for Rosalina. How dabuz was able to overcome those MUs is astonishing. It lead to players that wasn't even close to his skill level beating him like jtails and denti.

Honestly you should grind the MU more as diddy. Rosalina doesn't destroy diddy's nuetral while he has nana. Because of Monkey flip. Even after all the nerfs to diddy I think the MU is in his favor. Which should tell you how horrible the MU was before. Please stop talking about Rosalina it's embarrassing.

 

[Trifroze]

Goodbye boost kick, you will not be missed.

Pretty sure Nairos last kill confirms its as good as gone next patch

Choco has been doing these in Japan since the release, they're nothing new to their scene or the developers.

ZSS has the weakest smashes in the game by far and her only kill moves are bair, boost kick and flip kick. The latter two fail to kill at 100% from the middle of the stage without rage, and with rage boost kick doesn't connect all the way to the last hit, and if those two moves are nerfed bair becomes her only raw kill option. Her setups consist of a 16 frame grab with about a second of cooldown, 10 frame nair that you have to use out of a SHFF to setup into anything (so more like 30 frames with jumpsquat also included), 20 frame dsmash and a 21 frame (minimum) projectile that doesn't travel far. It's your own fault if you get hit by those, but of course it's bound to happen sometimes, that's how the character works. I genuinely hope the development team understands this, unlike most stream monsters and inexperienced players who look at ZSS' kill setups only when they work and don't realize the full picture.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

the calls for nerfs come like clockwork
zero also got boost kicked at levels above where komorikiri did, but he lived because he di'd straight to the side. i bet komorikiri could have lived those.

Wait so people want boost kick to get nerfed? Because it killed someone early or something?
Smh

 

[saur_ssb]

It seems like anything remotely good will be complained about and asked for nerfs. Makes me wonder how the future will be once they're done patching.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Choco has been doing these in Japan since the release, they're nothing new to their scene or the developers.

ZSS has the weakest smashes in the game by far and her only kill moves are bair, boost kick and flip kick. The latter two fail to kill at 100% from the middle of the stage without rage, and with rage boost kick doesn't connect all the way to the last hit, and if those two moves are nerfed bair becomes her only raw kill option. Her setups consist of a 16 frame grab with about a second of cooldown, 10 frame nair that you have to use out of a SHFF to setup into anything (so more like 30 frames with jumpsquat also included), 20 frame dsmash and a 21 frame (minimum) projectile that doesn't travel far. It's your own fault if you get hit by those, but of course it's bound to happen sometimes, that's how the character works. I genuinely hope the development team understands this, unlike most stream monsters and inexperienced players who look at ZSS' kill setups only when they work and don't realize the full picture.

Idgaf how bad her smashes are she needs to be nerfed and choco isn't on ZSS's level.

 

[Trifroze]

Idgaf how bad her smashes are she needs to be nerfed and choco isn't on ZSS's level.

?

You're part of the problem.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I actually wonder how Nintendo does their balance patches. Do they go by just Japan, or both USA and Japan? Since if they go by Japan, ZSS will probably get nerfed even more than Sheik, and Sonic will probably get nerfed a good amount too. But if they go by both USA and Japan, Than Sheik will get nerfed most, and random nerfs to ZSS. Then everything else is random nerf-wise.

And as for buffs, I expect them to go by how much they appear at tournaments, along with their potentntiol, for that. So Samus gets the most, but Mii Gunner, Kirby, Jigglypuff, King Dedede, Bowser, Ganondorf, Lucina, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, both Links, Shulk, Mega Man, Little Mac, Mewtwo, and Zelda can also be expected to get buffed.

 

[Zannabluke]

pretty sure that sakurai watches only japanese tournaments

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Choco has been doing these in Japan since the release, they're nothing new to their scene or the developers.

ZSS has the weakest smashes in the game by far and her only kill moves are bair, boost kick and flip kick. The latter two fail to kill at 100% from the middle of the stage without rage, and with rage boost kick doesn't connect all the way to the last hit, and if those two moves are nerfed bair becomes her only raw kill option. Her setups consist of a 16 frame grab with about a second of cooldown, 10 frame nair that you have to use out of a SHFF to setup into anything (so more like 30 frames with jumpsquat also included), 20 frame dsmash and a 21 frame (minimum) projectile that doesn't travel far. It's your own fault if you get hit by those, but of course it's bound to happen sometimes, that's how the character works. I genuinely hope the development team understands this, unlike most stream monsters and inexperienced players who look at ZSS' kill setups only when they work and don't realize the full picture.

100% agree. And this is how I feel about a lot of stuff in this game, too. People complain about MK's dash attack as if the move itself kills you at 20. Some people can't get over the idea that Ness can kill you off a throw, and completely ignore his recovery and matchup spread with the top tiers (and oftentimes the fact that it's done this since 64). Hell, if someone got a 9 Hammer kill in Grand Finals at a major, people would discuss how to nerf G&W. This thing never ends.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Loving the results. Confirms my suspicion that Nairo is on a level of his own right below Zero's. Confirms that claims like "Rosalina is carried 99.9% by dabuz" are bollox. Confirms that Ryu's good showing at Paragon wasn't just some fluke. Confirms that by sheer skill Earth is pretty much the most godlike player on Earth. Confirms that Japan and NA are pretty much on par at this point which japan winning out through skill density.

If we could only have Japan and America play all the time, the meta growth would accelerate tenfold. Feels like everyone's being pushed to their limits.

It honestly would be good enough if more people from the USA payed attention to what's happening in Japan in general. Although it's not as bad as it used to be in the early stages of the brawl metagame [where the gap between Japan and NA was actually a lot bigger] there are still way too many people who think that what happens in NA is all that really matters. Japan still has the highest skill density by far. Most of the "best players of character X" are japanese. There is a lot to be learned from them just by watching them play and checking out their results.

Saiya lost to 9B's Ryu, and Pichi lost to Mizutani's Yoshi in Winners. Then, Pichi eliminated Saiya in losers. Finally, Pichi lost to Sakasaka's Sheik. Falcon got eliminated pretty early.

To be fair though Ryu, Yoshi and Sheik are all pretty bad matchups for Falcon. It's unfortunate but that happens at stacked tournaments like these. Looks like Falcon, as solid as he may be, just doesn't cut it for the big occasion because Saiya and Pichi are both really good - I'd argue they're the two best Falcon players at this point.

So Japan's top 3 players were eliminated before Top 12. Meanwhile, Komorikiri, Choco, and Kirihara are still in winners, and 9B just eliminated Vinnie to qualify for Top 8 in losers.

I dunno who you're calling Japan's top 3 at this point. I'd assume Rain would be included but his recent placings have been so poor that I actually have to question his place among the three best players for once. Before the tournament I would've called Ranai, Komorikiri and Edge their top 3 players with Choco not far off. Out of those players only Ranai placed below what people expected of him.

Figures.
It puzzles me how Abadango beats rain and shu, then loses to Nyanko and Sakasaka.

Inconsistent as usual ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not inconsistent tbh.

Nyanko is pretty much on the same level as Shu. He doesn't usually place as high as Shu does but he's more consistent.
Sakasaka has been a top level player in Brawl and has tons on tourney exp. He'll always be relevant if when he enters.
Rain's placings have been increasingly disappointing in the last few months and with hindsight Abadango's win against him isn't as huge an upset as it appeared to be back then.

Abadango really was just unlucky he ran into these players / that matchup. And of course Japan's extremely high skill density always throwing a wrench at pretty much all predictions.

 

[bc1910]

Regardless of the ZSS situation this was not a good tournament for defenders of Sheik.

She may not have won, but she's all over top 16. A surprising number of (very good) players got knocked out by losing only to Sheik players.

I don't know how much longer Nintendo can ignore her.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd just like to say 9B made all the Ryus proud. He did soooo good. Managed to get 5th, even? Crazy.

Yeah this tournament was pretty good for Ryu, I hope people continue to develop the character like this, it's quite exciting!

 

[warionumbah2]

Metaknight is already getting hateand crying for nerfs, zss is gonna get it 10 times worse. Its a damn shame.

 

[Dre89]

I'd really wish you'd stop talking about Rosalina because you haven't gotten a clue. She doesn't have any reliable kill set-ups like zss sheik diddy. She doesn't have any of the mobility of those characters or the frame data and the safety.

Here's the real truth pre oatch diddy was a ridiculous OP character and that matchup was a hard counter for Rosalina. How dabuz was able to overcome those MUs is astonishing. It lead to players that wasn't even close to his skill level beating him like jtails and denti.

Honestly you should grind the MU more as diddy. Rosalina doesn't destroy diddy's nuetral while he has nana. Because of Monkey flip. Even after all the nerfs to diddy I think the MU is in his favor. Which should tell you how horrible the MU was before. Please stop talking about Rosalina it's embarrassing.

I never once complained about the Diddy v Rosa MU as a whole. I also never said Diddy can't do anything in neutral. All I said is that Luma invalidates Diddy's banana in neutral by simply existing. As in, you can't use the nana in neutral simply because Luma exists. That's all I said.

 

[Browny]

Choco has been doing these in Japan since the release, they're nothing new to their scene or the developers.

ZSS has the weakest smashes in the game by far and her only kill moves are bair, boost kick and flip kick. The latter two fail to kill at 100% from the middle of the stage without rage, and with rage boost kick doesn't connect all the way to the last hit, and if those two moves are nerfed bair becomes her only raw kill option. Her setups consist of a 16 frame grab with about a second of cooldown, 10 frame nair that you have to use out of a SHFF to setup into anything (so more like 30 frames with jumpsquat also included), 20 frame dsmash and a 21 frame (minimum) projectile that doesn't travel far. It's your own fault if you get hit by those, but of course it's bound to happen sometimes, that's how the character works. I genuinely hope the development team understands this, unlike most stream monsters and inexperienced players who look at ZSS' kill setups only when they work and don't realize the full picture.

This is a classic case of defending the status quo blindly with no real reason why the dev team would honestly care when all they care about is appeasing the public, not catering to competitive players. If ZSS never could kill this early, if her upb killed 40% less on average from day 1, she would still be high tier and absolutely NO ONE would demand that she be buffed to enable her to kill off grabs at 20%.

But what good is such a hypothetical? The thing about that is... the dev team does nerf things. They bring characters down to a level which would seem is intended and take away their utterly centralising abilities. At 74%, he killed Sonic at 25% with an inescapable string that in all honestly, he could have done with his eyes closed. I'm not taking anything away from Nairo, the point is that KO can be recreated easily with you eyes closed.

I literally don't care if they do or dont touch ZSS, but the way I see it;

We have a precedent for nerfing characters
The dev team seems to only notice what happens in Japan, and what happened there was pretty ridiculous
ZSS upb has no need to be that powerful, she can function perfectly well without it killing so early. Just like diddys uair, falcons uair, sheiks bair

I think her upb needs to be toned down a lot
I expect that the dev team will
I don't care in the slightest for reasons why she deserves it, because i can list n+1 reasons why she doesnt

You dont have to agree with me, but thats what I expect will happen.

 

[TriTails]

If Nintendo only care about Japan, Luigi wouldn't be having his D-tilt being nerfed so hard that's now it's even worse than dash attack. I don't think there's any notable Japanese Luigis there.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This is a classic case of defending the status quo blindly with no real reason why the dev team would honestly care when all they care about is appeasing the public, not catering to competitive players. If ZSS never could kill this early, if her upb killed 40% less on average from day 1, she would still be high tier and absolutely NO ONE would demand that she be buffed to enable her to kill off grabs at 20%.

But what good is such a hypothetical? The thing about that is... the dev team does nerf things. They bring characters down to a level which would seem is intended and take away their utterly centralising abilities. At 74%, he killed Sonic at 25% with an inescapable string that in all honestly, he could have done with his eyes closed. I'm not taking anything away from Nairo, the point is that KO can be recreated easily with you eyes closed.

I literally don't care if they do or dont touch ZSS, but the way I see it;

We have a precedent for nerfing characters
The dev team seems to only notice what happens in Japan, and what happened there was pretty ridiculous
ZSS upb has no need to be that powerful, she can function perfectly well without it killing so early. Just like diddys uair, falcons uair, sheiks bair

I think her upb needs to be toned down a lot
I expect that the dev team will
I don't care in the slightest for reasons why she deserves it, because i can list n+1 reasons why she doesnt

You dont have to agree with me, but thats what I expect will happen.

My problem with uSpecial isn't so much how early it kills, but how inconsistent it is across the cast. The window to hit small characters properly is fairly low, but fatties on the other hand get nearly invalidated by this move. It's stupid that dThrow > uSpecial is a true combo even in kill percent on fat characters. This move doesn't need a straight nerf, it needs a rebalance.
Make it weaker, but make it link properly on all characters and get rid of RCO lag.

 

[Ghostbone]

Oh look the ZSS complaints are coming in before Sheik even gets nerfed.

Boost kick is amazing, and yea they should probably make it weaker + more reliable, but that would probably be a buff more than anything, since ZSS would be able to combo more easily into up-b, and up-b OoS wouldn't fail to link half the time.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Oh look the ZSS complaints are coming in before Sheik even gets nerfed.

Boost kick is amazing, and yea they should probably make it weaker + more reliable, but that would probably be a buff more than anything, since ZSS would be able to combo more easily into up-b, and up-b OoS wouldn't fail to link half the time.

That's why I called it a rebalance and not a nerf. I disagree that it's a buff too, removing a kill option is pretty much always a nerf.

 

[Antonykun]

That's why I called it a rebalance and not a nerf. I disagree that it's a buff too, removing a kill option is pretty much always a nerf.

It depends how much weaker Boost Kick becomes like if the move kills at more reasonable percents as opposed to the absurd percents it does now, you can say its a buff as now ZSS has a more consistent kill move even if its weaker. If it kills never its probably closer to a nerf as now she lost an OOS kill move

 

[Steelballray]

Ehh, I think ZSS could use a nerf. A character with the best (?) Mobility and damage racking abilities doesn't really need to have one of the strongest finishing attacks in the game.

Even saying that her grab and set ups are bad is just blindly defending her at this point. Theortically and looking at frame data solely you'd think she's balanced but she's not. D smash and neutral B and SHFF nair are not punishable if spaced right and you see them spammed all match long without getting punished even once. Her grab being bad is a myth as well and by saying so you'd just br going by the meme that all tehter grabs are bad. Her grab goes a great distance, lingers so much that it can grab you still even if you spot dodge it and combos out of the three pre mentioned attacks which are so safe. Yeah, framedata wise its bad, but reality tells a different story.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

If Nintendo only care about Japan, Luigi wouldn't be having his D-tilt being nerfed so hard that's now it's even worse than dash attack. I don't think there's any notable Japanese Luigis there.

Luigi has a Dtilt?

 

[Ffamran]

Where exactly is the sweet spot of Ryu's spike anyway? He hit him with dair twice in that set but it only spiked him once.

Supposedly his fist when it comes down, so kind of like Captain Falcon's where his feet spikes, but above that and he'll send you at a more up and horizontal angle.

 

[Trifroze]

Ehh, I think ZSS could use a nerf. A character with the best (?) Mobility and damage racking abilities doesn't really need to have one of the strongest finishing attacks in the game.

Even saying that her grab and set ups are bad is just blindly defending her at this point. Theortically and looking at frame data solely you'd think she's balanced but she's not. D smash and neutral B and SHFF nair are not punishable if spaced right and you see them spammed all match long without getting punished even once. Her grab being bad is a myth as well and by saying so you'd just br going by the meme that all tehter grabs are bad. Her grab goes a great distance, lingers so much that it can grab you still even if you spot dodge it and combos out of the three pre mentioned attacks which are so safe. Yeah, framedata wise its bad, but reality tells a different story.

What is this reality you speak of where frame data is apparently a minor factor? You dodge ZSS' grab once when she's at 80-100% and she's dead. You can't just throw it out like you can with other characters. Her grab is 16 frames at minimum range and 24 frames at max range and has 69 frames total which is more than twice as much as non-tether grabs and more than any other tether grab bar Samus and Pac-Man (who has twice as much lingering frames and considerably faster startup). ZSS' grab has its situtations where it's better than a normal grab because of trapping potential, but it is not a reliable grab in neutral because it's extremely risky for approaches and it can't be used to shield grab most things you could with a normal one. Empty hop into grab is also an option you don't really have except when the opponent is in immense pressure. The negatives outweigh the positives and any decent player will tell you ZSS has one of the worst grabs in the game simply because of how much cooldown it has and how much it limits your options.

Dsmash, neutral b and SHFF nair can't be punished with good spacing after a hit but they can be punished before the hitbox comes out and some characters can stay in on her to prevent her from committing to them. Frame data is everything along with hitboxes, mobility and range, much more important than damage or kill power for example which are what is commonly nerfed or buffed in patches. Damage/knockback has close to no effect unless it's considerable and on an important move, in which case it has some effect.

Using facts and reasoning against another huge bandwagon is not blindly defending something. If you rush in against ZSS with unsafe options and take unnecessary risks you're going to get bodied. The large majority of the people calling for nerfs should stop doing that and learn patience and proper DI out of ZSS' setups, combos and up b instead of demanding nerfs out of frustration because they got punished or saw something on stream they didn't fully understand that looked "cheap". If something gets nerfed it should be her down b meteor and that's it. It's the only thing that can reliably kill at low to mid percents although even then you have to get hit by one of her slow/predictable setups while also being very close to the ledge.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi has a Dtilt?

Pre-patch D-tilt was pretty underrated. It was a good 50/50 from a jab, and the angle it sent people at was good for followups. If you can bait an airdodge with it you can usually hard punish it.

But now the D-tilt is so garbage it might as well be removed and you won't feel much differences. Removing dash attack at least has an effect on Luigi for losing a F4 move that can be done out of dash. D-tilt didn't really shine pre-patch and look at it now.

 

[Amadeus9]

Why does this thread always circle back to championing for nerfs once per week. This isn't productive in the slightest.