Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Coffee™]

Right in this thread, NickRiddle called his Marth a "Day-2 Marth." Obviously it's been more than 2 days since then, but that's pretty impressive for a character he hasn't practiced with extensively.

Nick uses Marth when he feels like, mostly for fun, but from what I can tell he doesn't take Marth too seriously.

 

[wedl!!]

Honestly there's no reason to buff Peach at this point. She's already a definite top 20/15 character.

There's not a lot of a chance of indirect buffs (unless something stupid happens like shieldstun getting increased, which by that point she'd be top 5). She realistically goes even with most top tiers, barring ,, , and who all most likely aren't getting changed (except Sammy, who is most likely taking an Uair/Flip Jump nerf).

here's hoping for all the turnip tech from release to be re-added TT_TT

 

[Wintropy]

There's plenty of Rep. for Luigi and there have been results to show that he's definitely a very strong character. As far as I'm concerned, it still stands that I believe that Luigi is in top 5

What other rep does Luigi get beyond the ConCon incident and Boss?

Not to diminish your point, I'm honestly wondering. You say there's "plenty" of rep and results to justify the theory, but you don't really cite it. Can you confirm that?

I'm personally planning on maining Sheik and secondarying DHD for the more... Annoying MUs sheik has like peach, jigglypuff, DK, MK, Pits, etc. Several players of these characters have noted DHD as their worst MU and I personally just like the mus more than with sheik. (And upkeeping a mario for doubles and halberd/delfino)

Pit vs Sheik is weird. I'm pretty sure Pit doesn't have too difficult a time with everybody's favourite Sheika shinobi, I think it's just barely good for Sheik, but it's kind of irrelevant when he gets beaten down by ZSS and Pikachu.

How's Sheik vs DHD, out of interest? Seems to be quite distinct.

 

[Asdioh]

Although not the subject of this thread, I find the "balance changes wishlist" posts fun, and more worthwhile than some of the cycles this thread goes through, at least when the wishlists are made by posters who know what they're talking about. I agree with the vast majority of Dunnobro's and Thinkaman's opinions. Their suggestions aren't a direct copy and paste of what I personally think should happen, but they're close enough. It's also worth pointing out that, although I think the likes of Sheik/ZSS etc do need nerfs, I agree that they should also be compensated with buffs in other areas. For example, if Sheik's disjoint was removed from Fair (either from hitbox reduction, or hurtbox increase if that makes sense?) and her (grounded) needles had more startup and endlag, I'd be ok with a little bit more KO power on Bair and Fsmash, that kind of thing. Despite the perceived problems we see in this game, we have to realize that our own balance suggestions are very easy, because the developers have already done a great job, and given us something really nice to work with.

But yes, you should absolutely not be able to tech spikes that hit you while you're grounded, and your hitstun should not just disappear after being bounced off the ground.


Interesting to see all the varying opinions of Sonic's tier placement. I agree with Shaya, he's still really good. Despite the nerfs, he's still a fundamentally stupidstrong character. Personal top 5 looks something like Sheik/ZSS/Diddy/Sonic/Fox or something... maybe... I don't actually really care. Ryu's close to that top 5 though, as long as he has insanely high damage on fast attacks, and insanely low percent kill power on Shoryuken.

I do wanna say that I see matchups thrown around a lot like they're set in stone by some higher authority, and I have to wonder. Like "Diddy loses to the Mario bros" is it really not close to even? I understand Luigi, but Mario? It's not evenish? Really? Also, Pikachu gets bodied by Luigi? With of all the tools and speed Pikachu has, there's nothing he can do to make the matchup not-awful?

 

[Rikkhan]

I made this unordered list for reference don't take it too seriously.

Spoiler: Unordered list

meta


Very viable (results or high expectations)


Kind of viable (lack of results or low expectations)


Hardly viable (percived weak)

I will say like esam, I think in tier list its better not care about exact placements especially outside of the meta characters, for example lets say kirby vs Tlink placement, who cares? both characters are in the same tier of "kind of viable". Discussion should revolve more around "should this character go from kind of viable to very viable?", "should Ryu have a chance on the meta tier?", "is Lucario very viable or just kind of viable?", something like that.

The only moment placements matter is when there is a clearly strong character that can dominate the scene if the best character gets nerfed, in the past was Diddy -> Sheik, now if sheik gets nerfed hard in the upcoming patch the bets are Sheik -> ZSS.

 

[wedl!!]

I still have no idea why people think Jigglypuff is anything but bottom 5. It's not that she's bad, it's just that she has no real strengths that make her better than anyone.

Also Diddy/Mario is like 100% even.

 

[G. Stache]

What other rep does Luigi get beyond the ConCon incident and Boss?

Not to diminish your point, I'm honestly wondering. You say there's "plenty" of rep and results to justify the theory, but you don't really cite it. Can you confirm that?

I haven't seen him as of late, but there's a guy called J. Miller who won a regionals a while back in the UK. 4 good people repping Luigi and there are less notable players that I forget the name of that are decent in there own right. That's, in my eyes, great representation considering the 3-4 big(ger) names we have in the mix.

 

[wedl!!]

Well, that's great. Problem is none of those players are consistent national-level threats. That's kind of what we're asking about.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'm gonna have to stop you right there.
What proof do you have of this effect existing?

More to the point though, how could a tier list account for low tier characters supposedly having a momentum advantage over higher tier characters which is a paradox since if you are supposedly the weaker character you are rarely going to be in a winning position. Therefore this advantage is lost.

Your theory completely contradicts itself.

It's not so much as a theory, as just a passing idea.

I'm just making an observation.

 

[Rikkhan]

Adding to the Roy discussion, Static Manny Roy almost beat Ryo's Ike in winners final, he was was winning 2-0 but he got downloaded hard, then he got beat in GF by Ryo's Lucina lol, nice showing though.

As a bonus this guy Haven did pretty good against Zorai which I belive is a good Sheik player.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1gnBeaLKb8

 

[Pazzo.]

Roy's not a bad character, and could be viable if someone put enough time into him.

But really, I could say the same for twenty-odd members of the cast.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I do wanna say that I see matchups thrown around a lot like they're set in stone by some higher authority, and I have to wonder. Like "Diddy loses to the Mario bros" is it really not close to even? I understand Luigi, but Mario? It's not evenish? Really?

Amen brother.

There's no way Mario actually beats Diddy. Diddy outneutrals Mario, kills better and his strongest selling points are not as situational as Mario's. I can see it as even but in Mario's favor? No way.

 

[Nocally]

I don't understand how some people think they're able to come up with a full tier list of all characters when to this day we're not able to establish even a solid top 5. Hell, apart from Sheik being #1 and ZSS being #2 we couldn't even find a consensus on who's top 3 yet. Sonic? Diddy? Fox? Who the hell knows right now.

So yeah, maybe that's something worth discussing.

You are on the right track, but it runs even deeper than that. How can we create a tier list when we can't even agree on how to make it?

What is most important in a tier list?

- overall match-ups ?
- popularity of the character? ( how are the chances of you meeting them in tournaments)
- Match-ups with top/high tiers?
- results (a combination of local, regional, national and other parts of the world or what?)
- Theory?
- placements of the different tiers ?
- does the tier list show who is solo viable, meta-defining or something else?

This is just a small example of things people can't agree on, and when people can't agree on what the tier list is supposed to convey, how can we even start discussing the placements of characters when everyone has different opinions of character viability etc.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I made this unordered list for reference don't take it too seriously.

Spoiler: Unordered list

meta


Very viable (results or high expectations)


Kind of viable (lack of results or low expectations)


Hardly viable (percived weak)

I will say like esam, I think in tier list its better not care about exact placements especially outside of the meta characters, for example lets say kirby vs Tlink placement, who cares? both characters are in the same tier of "kind of viable". Discussion should revolve more around "should this character go from kind of viable to very viable?", "should Ryu have a chance on the meta tier?", "is Lucario very viable or just kind of viable?", something like that.

The only moment placements matter is when there is a clearly strong character that can dominate the scene if the best character gets nerfed, in the past was Diddy -> Sheik, now if sheik gets nerfed hard in the upcoming patch the bets are Sheik -> ZSS.

That's a pretty good summation of the meta right now, though Ryu is pretty blatantly a top 10 character who should and will be meta once more people learn to play him. Also in general the bottom vs. barely viable is kind of questionable because the "not that bad" case for most any bottom character is legitimate, though it doesn't really matter for meta purposes. Those two tiers should probably be merged, as they're all to varying degrees meta-irrelevant characters who nevertheless have some good tools that make them generally playable. The main divisions right now are meta, semi-meta, and non-meta.

 

[Ghostbone]

Amen brother.

There's no way Mario actually beats Diddy. Diddy outneutrals Mario, kills better and his strongest selling points are not as situational as Mario's. I can see it as even but in Mario's favor? No way.

Nah but cape tho
/s

Mario might be able to compete with Diddy, but the meta for Diddy is miles ahead of Mario's thanks to having way more high level players (including the best player in the world) using him regularly, so it's hard to judge what diddy's matchups are actually like (assuming optimal play) because of that.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Hmm... Maybe Sonic is Top 5. Since he can make you suffer from time outs, killing power (Forward Smash, Up Smash, Spring to Up Air in battlefield or high cellings, a spring gimp, etc). He can also change of playstyle in the middle of a match (he can be really aggressive and become campy as **** when he gets enough damage and a stock) and he's still getting results. Also: Sonic's match-ups aren't that bad either. ZSS and Sheik are -1 for Sonic and he can overcome these match-ups. He is even with Pikachu, even with Fox (I think. I'm not too sure about this one). And is also even with Mario and Diddy Kong, with maybe a very slight advantage.

 

[DunnoBro]

Pit vs Sheik is weird. I'm pretty sure Pit doesn't have too difficult a time with everybody's favourite Sheika shinobi, I think it's just barely good for Sheik, but it's kind of irrelevant when he gets beaten down by ZSS and Pikachu.

How's Sheik vs DHD, out of interest? Seems to be quite distinct.

I just think dhd vs pit is fun. Any MU I enjoy as DHD I will do as him probably.

And Sheik is probably DHD's best top tier MU imo. His kill set-ups work reliably on her being a fast faller, but unlike other fast fallers such as fox/falcon/diddy DHD isn't dying from making the wrong read.

He's probably the only floaty in the game that can contend with her damage output enough to make his floaty status + rage mode really screw up her kill set-ups too. If she's killing him it's generally from an edgeguard.

On the topic of sonic:

I think he's in the same spectrum as Mario, and Pikachu. An overall solid character with no glaring weaknesses, but no S-tier gimmicks like Sheik's neutral or ZSS's "kill you at 40" factor keep them from being too high.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

What other rep does Luigi get beyond the ConCon incident and Boss?

Not to diminish your point, I'm honestly wondering. You say there's "plenty" of rep and results to justify the theory, but you don't really cite it. Can you confirm that?



Pit vs Sheik is weird. I'm pretty sure Pit doesn't have too difficult a time with everybody's favourite Sheika shinobi, I think it's just barely good for Sheik, but it's kind of irrelevant when he gets beaten down by ZSS and Pikachu.

How's Sheik vs DHD, out of interest? Seems to be quite distinct.

Put a good Pit(and i mean Nairo or Earth level good, maybe Pink Fresh)against a good ZSS or Pikachu Nairo and ESAM level, and there wouldn't be any problems. For 1 month, I mostly had to fight ZSS as Pit, and as long as they don't do the cheap uair 2x the up b or grabs in general...Pit is safe. Pikachu on the other hand, down smash, arrows, and a high ceiling Upperdash/Electroshock should do the trick. Works for me atleast.

 

[Wintropy]

Put a good Pit(and i mean Nairo or Earth level good, maybe Pink Fresh)against a good ZSS or Pikachu Nairo and ESAM level, and there wouldn't be any problems. For 1 month, I mostly had to fight ZSS as Pit, and as long as they don't do the cheap uair 2x the up b or grabs in general...Pit is safe. Pikachu on the other hand, down smash, arrows, and a high ceiling Upperdash/Electroshock should do the trick. Works for me atleast.

Matchups don't work that way.

You're basically saying "as long as ZSS doesn't do everything that ZSS does, Pit is safe". I'm sorry, but that isn't a good indication of how the matchup is at top-level. You can't just cite several moves without explaining how, in practice, it is of benefit.

 

[Ghostbone]

and as long as they don't do the cheap uair 2x the up b or grabs in general...Pit is safe

This is literally everyone vs ZSS
You feel like you're winning, then you get hit by nair/d-smash/grab and die at 40 or less depending on rage.
And if by some miracle you live to 100, you have to be afraid of her bair (which is stronger than falcon's now >.>) and up-b OoS.

It's why she's an amazing character.

 

[Zelder]

"As long as ZSS doesn't take advantage of her strengths, the match is even."

Amazing. Flawless. I want to frame that logic and put it up on my wall.

 

[DunnoBro]

Put a good Pit(and i mean Nairo or Earth level good, maybe Pink Fresh)against a good Pikachu ESAM level, and there wouldn't be any problems

Nairo's pit did get 2-stocked by esam and he went back to zss tho

 

[Green L]

Why is jigglypuff low tier? She has great qualities such as high airspeed, great recovery, easily edgeguard terrible recoveries such as mario and falcon.

 

[Amadeus9]

Why is jigglypuff low tier? She has great qualities such as high airspeed, great recovery, easily edgeguard terrible recoveries such as mario and falcon.

Because most characters in this game are capable of performing actions associated with the L/R buttons.

 

[Pazzo.]

Why is jigglypuff low tier? She has great qualities such as high airspeed, great recovery, easily edgeguard terrible recoveries such as mario and falcon.

I believe it's because she's light as a feather.

In a game where getting grabbed = death, that's a crippling flaw.

 

[bc1910]

Put a good Pit(and i mean Nairo or Earth level good, maybe Pink Fresh)against a good ZSS or Pikachu Nairo and ESAM level, and there wouldn't be any problems. For 1 month, I mostly had to fight ZSS as Pit, and as long as they don't do the cheap uair 2x the up b or grabs in general...Pit is safe. Pikachu on the other hand, down smash, arrows, and a high ceiling Upperdash/Electroshock should do the trick. Works for me atleast.

This is amazing.

It's like saying "as long as the democrats have no campaign and no leader the republicans might win".

 

[Pazzo.]

Lay off TMNTSSB4 .

I think he's learned his lesson, so there's no need to constantly address his mistake.

 

[Zelder]

As long as Bowser doesn't get hit, he's pretty much guaranteed to win the match. Okay I promise I'm done now.

Anyways, I feel like a top 5 is something like and. I could see Rosalina dropping in the future (Rosalina mains seem pretty down on her staying power) and I think Diddy is top 5 because his high level gameplay is really developed/figured out so far (having the best player in the world utilize your character will do that, of course).

 

[Wintropy]

ZSS basically controls the neutral. Pit needs to play good footsies and spot an opening to get anything done. This is very, very, very, very difficult when ZSS just decides to space you out with n-air and z-air disjoints and there's the undeniable threat of neutral-b / grab to make your job hell.

Pika's just fast and combos for days. Small size makes it difficult to play footsies with him, Jolt has the same kind of "I control neutral now" properties, he doesn't respect your space or spacing options, then there's the intangible recovery that makes edgeguarding near-futile.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why is jigglypuff low tier? She has great qualities such as high airspeed, great recovery, easily edgeguard terrible recoveries such as mario and falcon.

1. Stupidly light and can reasonably be killed as low at 70% by most of the cast.
2. Lack of range for most attacks.
3. Pretty vulnerable while recovering thanks to no real recovery move (also makes it super hard for her to recover against being spiked).
4. Lack of kill and set up throws.
5. Doesn't handle shield pressure well and a broken shield is instant death.
6. Has like two reliable kill moves (fair and bair).
7. Slow as hell on the ground and can easily get camped/walled out.(Most matchups against swordsmen are pretty BS for her thanks to this.)
8. Doesn't handle being rushed down well.
9. Anything she can do, there's like a dozen characters that can do it better including and.

 

[Rikkhan]

That's a pretty good summation of the meta right now, though Ryu is pretty blatantly a top 10 character who should and will be meta once more people learn to play him. Also in general the bottom vs. barely viable is kind of questionable because the "not that bad" case for most any bottom character is legitimate, though it doesn't really matter for meta purposes. Those two tiers should probably be merged, as they're all to varying degrees meta-irrelevant characters who nevertheless have some good tools that make them generally playable. The main divisions right now are meta, semi-meta, and non-meta.

Yeah you are right I just feel like adding that tier because there is some gap between decent characters and bad characters, but as you said for meta purposes it doesn't really matter. So far Ryu is the one with the highest expectations to be in meta tier but still not guaranteed, Yoshi and meta knigth were hyped for meta tier and haven't proved this.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Why is jigglypuff low tier? She has great qualities such as high airspeed, great recovery, easily edgeguard terrible recoveries such as mario and falcon.

Virtually every recovery in the game is better than all the recoveries in Melee, and ledge-trumps invalidate one of the safest tools she had for edgeguarding. She has to play a bit more honestly in Smash 4, and her tools for doing it are mediocre.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Virtually every recovery in the game is better than all the recoveries in Melee, and ledge-trumps invalidate one of the safest tools she had for edgeguarding. She has to play a bit more honestly in Smash 4, and her tools for doing it are mediocre.

This. Aside from Fox and Falco, most of the cast had garbage recoveries in Melee and if you got knocked off the stage above 50%, there was a pretty good chance that you weren't coming back if your opponent was at least decent at edge guarding. Brawl made recovering easier and this game has made it even easier still, taking away a niche that Jiggs still has in Melee. There's also the fact that compared to past Smash games, shields are flimsy as all hell in this game. It's no longer a huge mark of shame to get a broken shield because a lot of characters are now capable of doing it with a single attack. Again, this is a huge weakness for Jigglypuff who dies instantaneously if her shield breaks and made even worse since she can't handle shield pressure well thanks to her lack of range and reliable OH GOD, GET OFF ME attacks.

 

[Pazzo.]

Coming back to the stage has just become safer as Smash has progressed...

I wonder if someone's made a ranking of the recoveries of SSB4.

 

[Zelder]

Actually, they have, on these very forums: http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/

 

[DavemanCozy]

This is a huge weakness for Jigglypuff who dies instantaneously if her shield breaks and made even worse since she can't handle shield pressure well thanks to her lack of range and reliable OH GOD, GET OFF ME attacks.

And yet the Jiggs board thinks their character can beat Fox and ZSS.

I really wish I was joking.
http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...-matchup-thread-discussing-fox.384478/page-13

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Nairo's pit did get 2-stocked by esam and he went back to zss tho

Was it recently? If yes, when was the last time he even used Pit?

This is amazing.

It's like saying "as long as the democrats have no campaign and no leader the republicans might win".

Silly silly, yes.

"As long as ZSS doesn't take advantage of her strengths, the match is even."

Amazing. Flawless. I want to frame that logic and put it up on my wall.

Get your own ideas

 

[Pazzo.]

Actually, they have, on these very forums: http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/

Thanks.

I'll be sure to give this a through look to assist in making valuable comments here.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

IMatchup boards can be biased as all hell. That's why you should always get people from the opposing character board to help discuss it.

Seriously, Ganon boards think they beat goddamn Wario.

 

[Wintropy]

TMNTSSB4 , please don't continue the conversation. Otherwise I will have to call in based Shaya~

I don't think ESAM beating Nairo is definitive evidence that Pika beats Pit (I know DunnoBro wasn't saying it is, I'm just making a point), but it is worth considering. You can make the case that it's contextual, that ESAM used his dedicated main versus Nairo's "party trick" secondary, but a two-stock is a two-stock. Nairo evidently felt safer switching to a character that handles the matchup better.

How is ZSS vs Pika? I've heard that it's pretty intense, but I can't remember why or for whom, heh~