Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Routa]

I'm so sorry but...

Shulk is 2nd/the best swordsman atm according to Zero (said in his analyse video about Roy).

Mmm... thoughts?

 

[Nu~]

Constant reminder of why I don't listen to ZeRo.

 

[KiskeQ]

Why Shulk, of all swordies?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Constant reminder of why I don't listen to ZeRo.

Finally, someone agrees

 

[TriTails]

> Two of the most common tourney characters
> Luigi

Wot.

EVO had only like... I don't know, one Luigi? CEO had no Luigi mains.

Nope.

I'm so sorry but...

Shulk is 2nd/the best swordsman atm according to Zero (said in his analyse video about Roy).

Mmm... thoughts?

I thought we all agreed to not listen to ZeRo's saying too seriously.

That's a bold claim when you consider the fact Shulk doesn't exist at national level of play, and we don't even know what this character is capable of yet.

 

[DanGR]

Antonykun how close to a true combo is swordfighter jab->grab? Is jab 1 or 2 into grab better?

 

[Zannabluke]

I'm so sorry but...

Shulk is 2nd/the best swordsman atm according to Zero (said in his analyse video about Roy).

Mmm... thoughts?

you're wrong, he's the BEST CHARACTER in smash 4 according to him

 

[Planty]

you're wrong, he's the BEST CHARACTER in smash 4 according to him

Uhhh.... no.... just no..... He said that it's possible that he could theoretically be the best if absolutely every aspect of him is optimized. That was a few months ago and if I remember correctly, he did it for a Fun Friday video (which actually meant something in the past, unlike now where all his videos are just him rating characters almost randomly). I'm pretty sure that is was a subscriber special too, so of course it would be something strange.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

you're wrong, he's the BEST CHARACTER in smash 4 according to him

Please tell me you're lying

 

[Antonykun]

Antonykun how close to a true combo is swordfighter jab->grab? Is jab 1 or 2 into grab better?

very weight/fall speed/percent/rage dependent

usually jab 1 for floaties/high percent and jab 2 for fast fallers/low percents don't bother using jab combos on super fast fallers like fox or greninja (lol super fastfallers)

 

[David Viran]

ZSS hasn't been eliminating top Metaknights its been Sheik all along but who cares, Leo leo leo.

How many top zss players have even ended up fighting top MK players?

 

[Ghostbone]

Winners Quarterfinals - Ito vs VoiD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jdOOtZRpXs

Losers Finals - Tyrant vs VoiD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USjXV5tRyjA

Small note: I was wrong, he played Luigi in his second game out of three.

Because it's not possible they just got outplayed or anything.

I don't see any proof in these videos that it's a bad matchup. MK mains always like to talk about how much they get wrecked by needle camping, but VoiD is playing super rushdown every game, always putting pressure on, hardly how MK mains will describe Sheik's "optimal" playstyle for the matchup. To me VoiD just played better, was cleaner with his combos and got a tonne of reads on both of them, don't try and explain that all away as MK just having a terrible matchup lol.

 

[Zelder]

I'm so sorry but...

Shulk is 2nd/the best swordsman atm according to Zero (said in his analyse video about Roy).

Mmm... thoughts?

I'm not going to lie to you, if I was the best player in the world I would say increasingly outrageous things just to see what people would parrot.

 

[Xeze]

I'm so sorry but...

Shulk is 2nd/the best swordsman atm according to Zero (said in his analyse video about Roy).

Mmm... thoughts?

He said Shulk could POTENTIALLY be the the best swordsman in the game, but his meta hasn't been developed yet so he isn't.

 

[kj22]

Any high level players going to Absolute Battle 6 in Dallas this weekend (aka tomorrow)

 

[Lavani]

Let's talk about some characters we never hear about!

Interesting stuff from a Vegas weekly last night. Ven placed 4th with Zelda, while FOW apparently picked up Falco and took first using only him (for singles anyway - the two teamed Zelda/Ness for doubles).

VOD: http://www.twitch.tv/pressstartlv/v/17628904

1:45:05 Crisspy v FOW
2:15:33 Kinzer v FOW (spoilers: Smashville shenanigans at 2:16:55)
4:30:34 Lycan v FOW WF
5:15:45 Lycan v FOW GF

Some interesting things that stuck out to me were the use of fair just before landing for the landing hitbox (which has disgusting disjoint) and tending to favor nair over fair for gimping offstage. Bair/ftilt/reflector spacing was on point.

Commentators mentioned he was apparently picking up Falco for dealing with Rosalina, but I find that highly suspect.

51:27 Kinzer v Ven
2:30:35 Ven v Crisspy
4:23:18 Hino v Ven
4:45:16 Ven v Z
(different VOD http://www.twitch.tv/pressstartlv/v/17618035 1:12:20 Ven v BtB)

Nothing specific to say about Ven, he just does Zelda's high risk:high reward precision punishes in a way that almost makes her look like a coherent character and it's great to watch. The Sonic MU looks awful, though.

Doubles are in the same VOD if those are of interest to people, I only grabbed timestamps for singles since that's usually what we discuss in here but there were some great dubs sets too.

 

[Goesasu]

I'm so sorry but...

Shulk is 2nd/the best swordsman atm according to Zero (said in his analyse video about Roy).

Mmm... thoughts?

Actually IMO shulk is the best swordsman in the game, not bias.

shulk》ike》marth》roy /lucina (different matchups)

I wont rate link because he has proyectiles and plays way differently than his fellow swordies.

Shulk frame data is usually 2 or 3 frame slower than ikes and with funcional smash attacks. Has the best range of the cast but his frame data means you cant play recklesly, you have to think every move and now what you are doing.

I dont stream but i consider myself a high level shulk player and I can go at least to to toe with most of the cast, having only real disadvantage against fox and sheik, other rushdown chars like cap falcon are manageable, and the upperhand against lot of chars with low range or bad mobility.

The thing is that you can count the shulk players in the whole world with just one hand. Shulk is just too technical and complicated and also comes from a (amazing and best rpg of all times) niche game so its only for characters loyalist. Nobody will be bandawoging shulk even if he becomes the next sheik, people wont try to learn whats complicated and can be obtained in easier ways.

A well played shulk is a scary shulk, sadly you wont find many of them.

 

[Mario766]

Ike doesn't have functional smash attacks.


I think you lost credibility there.

Shulk is too technical because DAMN people can't get ONE tech down pat, oh wait. Remember the one Shulk who could?

Guess who he mains now?


An actually good character named Ryu.

 

[Nu~]

Actually IMO shulk is the best swordsman in the game, not bias.

shulk》ike》marth》roy /lucina (different matchups)

I wont rate link because he has proyectiles and plays way differently than his fellow swordies.

Shulk frame data is usually 2 or 3 frame slower than ikes and with funcional smash attacks. Has the best range of the cast but his frame data means you cant play recklesly, you have to think every move and now what you are doing.

I dont stream but i consider myself a high level shulk player and I can go at least to to toe with most of the cast, having only real disadvantage against fox and sheik, other rushdown chars like cap falcon are manageable, and the upperhand against lot of chars with low range or bad mobility.

The thing is that you can count the shulk players in the whole world with just one hand. Shulk is just too technical and complicated and also comes from a (amazing and best rpg of all times) niche game so its only for characters loyalist. Nobody will be bandawoging shulk even if he becomes the next sheik, people wont try to learn whats complicated and can be obtained in easier ways.

A well played shulk is a scary shulk, sadly you wont find many of them.

Can you explain this heavy theorycraft?

Why is Shulk this "super good but complicated" character

 

[KiskeQ]

Actually IMO shulk is the best swordsman in the game, not bias.

shulk》ike》marth》roy /lucina (different matchups)

I wont rate link because he has proyectiles and plays way differently than his fellow swordies.

Shulk frame data is usually 2 or 3 frame slower than ikes and with funcional smash attacks. Has the best range of the cast but his frame data means you cant play recklesly, you have to think every move and now what you are doing.

I dont stream but i consider myself a high level shulk player and I can go at least to to toe with most of the cast, having only real disadvantage against fox and sheik, other rushdown chars like cap falcon are manageable, and the upperhand against lot of chars with low range or bad mobility.

The thing is that you can count the shulk players in the whole world with just one hand. Shulk is just too technical and complicated and also comes from a (amazing and best rpg of all times) niche game so its only for characters loyalist. Nobody will be bandawoging shulk even if he becomes the next sheik, people wont try to learn whats complicated and can be obtained in easier ways.

A well played shulk is a scary shulk, sadly you wont find many of them.

Well, we need Shulk results then.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Actually IMO shulk is the best swordsman in the game, not bias.

shulk》ike》marth》roy /lucina (different matchups)

I wont rate link because he has proyectiles and plays way differently than his fellow swordies.

Shulk frame data is usually 2 or 3 frame slower than ikes and with funcional smash attacks. Has the best range of the cast but his frame data means you cant play recklesly, you have to think every move and now what you are doing.

I dont stream but i consider myself a high level shulk player and I can go at least to to toe with most of the cast, having only real disadvantage against fox and sheik, other rushdown chars like cap falcon are manageable, and the upperhand against lot of chars with low range or bad mobility.

The thing is that you can count the shulk players in the whole world with just one hand. Shulk is just too technical and complicated and also comes from a (amazing and best rpg of all times) niche game so its only for characters loyalist. Nobody will be bandawoging shulk even if he becomes the next sheik, people wont try to learn whats complicated and can be obtained in easier ways.

A well played shulk is a scary shulk, sadly you wont find many of them.

Hm. Fair point, fair point.

Prove it.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I dont stream but i consider myself a high level shulk player and I can go at least to to toe with most of the cast, having only real disadvantage against fox and sheik, other rushdown chars like cap falcon are manageable, and the upperhand against lot of chars with low range or bad mobility.
.

ah okay which good players have you succesfully beaten with shulk?

 

[Ghostbone]

Can you explain this heavy theorycraft?

Why is Shulk this "super good but complicated" character

Manado landing lag cancel (dunno what the shulk boards call it)
Requires pretty precise timing and it's pretty impossible to manage all your arts while dealing with the opponent and spacing and what not, 9B managed it but he still got middling results even with optimal shulk.
Ryu just rewards that level of dedication to mastering a character a lot more.

 

[Shaya]

The anecdotes around Shulk.... so so so so so many top level players using him and completely and utterly disregarding them, followed up by using other characters sometimes (at least at that stage) considered average and do significantly better...

Trela: Brawl Lucario hero who slayed king of the mews and was unbeatable in the anubis strategy. Used Shulk early, lost a lot, switched to CHARIZARD (way way way before buffs), default Mii swordfighter (also way before buffs and everyone considered him the single worst character in the game), Mewtwo etc etc and was able to WIN

Gnes: One of the greatest smash players of all time, Brawl MLG champion. It's this guy's fault Meta Knight learned to play "gay". Anything lame Meta Knight was known for in Brawl, gnes was the guy who had to deal with it first (planking time outs, scrooging time outs, so on and so forth). Has used Shulk since early on in the game despite having very strong top tiers under his belt. From what I gather he's almost completely given up on Shulk at this stage in lieu of Mario, Roy and others. In times of Shulk, he would sometimes not be seen in top 6/8 of locals.

Ally: Another one of the greatest smash (PM, Brawl, S4) players of all time. Could not beat other players at a [assumed] lower level using terrible characters (at the time). Actually did more with Marth and Falco.

9B: The reason Ice Climbers killed Brawl, one of [if not] the greatest competing smash scientists of ALL TIME. Could not pull any results whatsoever with Shulk despite all knowing and respecting how good he is, could not ever breach top 20 at tournaments. Switches to Ryu and within a month or so is getting top 8 at major international events.

Shulk sucks.
Straight up.
On wifi the pacing of the game (and the stupidity of sh/fh air dodge) stacks up a lot more in Shulk's favour, allowing him to freely set up monado cancels or play passively when pressured and get out for "free".
But otherwise, he is undoubtedly trash. And I really don't know how one would fix him either, all his mechanics are gimmicky/unique (or at least non-standard), and in theory if they were more applicable he could be "broken"... that and considering his wifi strengths I'd rather think he shouldn't be getting mechanical buffs (which he would need to actually be good), and buffing the normals significantly ala Ike would either not be healthy for the game (i.e. Shulk reaches: "very good character without ever needing to use monado arts!") or they are of little consequence when fast, disjointed attackers are out there who can do better in just about everything he wants to do.

Like Jigglypuff, who has taken time for players to get why she's bottom tier (because she doesn't really have any notable deficiencies and she's very solid on wifi), people need to wise up on Shulk. Unlike Jiggs, Shulk has had numerous amazing players give it their all and failed significantly.
I'm more scared of a Samus or Zelda in just about every single match up.
Shulk is not viable. Possibly the furthest away from viability than anyone else in this game.

 

[Zelder]

I don't think Shulk is as bad as Zelda or Shiek, but he is pretty bad. Which is a shame because it means we'll never see Nudey Boy Shulk in a Grand Finals match.

edit: don't drink and post y'all

 

[Hippieslayer]

Honestly I think they went in head over heels when they made Shulk, and in light of the fact that they removed pokemon trainer I honestly dont know what the **** they were thinking with him.

 

[Ghostbone]

And I really don't know how one would fix him either, all his mechanics are gimmicky/unique (or at least non-standard), and in theory if they were more applicable he could be "broken"

Notably, customs shulk is pretty bonkers because his arts are just ridiculously ramped up, and vision is actually good.

It's a fine line between our current bottom tier shulk and top tier shulk.

 

[Vipermoon]

The anecdotes around Shulk.... so so so so so many top level players using him and completely and utterly disregarding them, followed up by using other characters sometimes (at least at that stage) considered average and do significantly better...

Trela: Brawl Lucario hero who slayed king of the mews and was unbeatable in the anubis strategy. Used Shulk early, lost a lot, switched to CHARIZARD (way way way before buffs), default Mii swordfighter (also way before buffs and everyone considered him the single worst character in the game), Mewtwo etc etc and was able to WIN

Gnes: One of the greatest smash players of all time, Brawl MLG champion. It's this guy's fault Meta Knight learned to play "gay". Anything lame Meta Knight was known for in Brawl, gnes was the guy who had to deal with it first (planking time outs, scrooging time outs, so on and so forth). Has used Shulk since early on in the game despite having very strong top tiers under his belt. From what I gather he's almost completely given up on Shulk at this stage in lieu of Mario, Roy and others. In times of Shulk, he would sometimes not be seen in top 6/8 of locals.

Ally: Another one of the greatest smash (PM, Brawl, S4) players of all time. Could not beat other players at a [assumed] lower level using terrible characters (at the time). Actually did more with Marth and Falco.

9B: The reason Ice Climbers killed Brawl, one of [if not] the greatest competing smash scientists of ALL TIME. Could not pull any results whatsoever with Shulk despite all knowing and respecting how good he is, could not ever breach top 20 at tournaments. Switches to Ryu and within a month or so is getting top 8 at major international events.

Shulk sucks.
Straight up.
On wifi the pacing of the game (and the stupidity of sh/fh air dodge) stacks up a lot more in Shulk's favour, allowing him to freely set up monado cancels or play passively when pressured and get out for "free".
But otherwise, he is undoubtedly trash. And I really don't know how one would fix him either, all his mechanics are gimmicky/unique (or at least non-standard), and in theory if they were more applicable he could be "broken"... that and considering his wifi strengths I'd rather think he shouldn't be getting mechanical buffs (which he would need to actually be good), and buffing the normals significantly ala Ike would either not be healthy for the game (i.e. Shulk reaches: "very good character without ever needing to use monado arts!") or they are of little consequence when fast, disjointed attackers are out there who can do better in just about everything he wants to do.

Like Jigglypuff, who has taken time for players to get why she's bottom tier (because she doesn't really have any notable deficiencies and she's very solid on wifi), people need to wise up on Shulk. Unlike Jiggs, Shulk has had numerous amazing players give it their all and failed significantly.
I'm more scared of a Samus or Zelda in just about every single match up.
Shulk is not viable. Possibly the furthest away from viability than anyone else in this game.

How can anyone argue for Shulk's viability after reading these FACTS?

 

[Shaya]

I don't think Shulk is as bad as Zelda or Shiek, but he is pretty bad. Which is a shame because it means we'll never see Nudey Boy Shulk in a Grand Finals match.

Shulk better than Shiek, LET'S GO :3
I know you meant Samus, haha. But eh... if I do something kinda unsafe against Zelda I can be up-b'd (similar to vanish reads), even sometimes oos, and die. Nair and throws can lead into her sweetspot aerials; and dtilt and dsmash are some of the best. Oh yeah, a lot of her kit is transcended too.

Notably, customs shulk is pretty bonkers because his arts are just ridiculously ramped up, and vision is actually good.

It's a fine line between our current bottom tier shulk and top tier shulk.

Well, they could make back slash's back facing knock back be similar to Marth's tipper fsmash and he would still be bad.
Vision customs really do up how scary he is and how much respect you need to give him.
Most of his customs seem pretty lazy and kinda exemplify what 'blindly' superior versions of moves as customs result in. Even so, I think he still couldn't really be much higher than mid.

 

[Nu~]

Have to admit.
Killing wario with shulk's extreme Monado arts (smash) down throw at 60% was pretty fun and stupid.

 

[Mario766]

Notably, customs shulk is pretty bonkers because his arts are just ridiculously ramped up, and vision is actually good.

It's a fine line between our current bottom tier shulk and top tier shulk.

Except he still has to deal with his absolutely terrible frame data and arts don't make up for that.

 

[Goesasu]

How can anyone argue for Shulk's viability after reading these FACTS?

Because the character is not for everyone just like melee jiggly is that simple.

Just look up ike and shulks frame data and compare each move on paper and in game. There is nothing ike can do that shulk cant, even grab combos but are monado art and % dependant.

Shulk needs tons of practice, a lot, i ve been using him since 3ds release and each day i see progress in my gameplay because he isnt obvious in any way. He is for character loyalist, not bandawogers or newcomers.

Time will show that he is as powerful as ike but more adaptable. He comes with the price of being a lot more technical.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, we need Shulk results then.

Some *Shulk voice* good results!

I'll see myself out...

Shulk better than Shiek, LET'S GO :3

I think Shiek loses to Shulk while he's crouching.

 

[Superbat]

Shaya
Do you think that the shulk buffs in 1.0.4 were substantial with increasing his viability?

 

[Antonykun]

Trela: default Mii swordfighter (also way before buffs and everyone considered him the single worst character in the game), N

I dunno if this is infraction worthy or not but whenever someone say "Trela" and "Mii Swordfighter" (and variants thereof) I cry a little inside

I think Shiek loses to Shulk while he's crouching.

everyone beats sheik by crouching even other sheiks

In other news I was just thinking about how bad 1.0.0/4 Swordfighter was and man he's gone a long way (and still isn't probably viable...maybe)

 

[KiskeQ]

Because the character is not for everyone just like melee jiggly is that simple.

Just look up ike and shulks frame data and compare each move on paper and in game. There is nothing ike can do that shulk cant, even grab combos but are monado art and % dependant.

Shulk needs tons of practice, a lot, i ve been using him since 3ds release and each day i see progress in my gameplay because he isnt obvious in any way. He is for character loyalist, not bandawogers or newcomers.

Time will show that he is as powerful as ike but more adaptable. He comes with the price of being a lot more technical.

Being more technical than most characters doesn't automatically make you better than other choices
Just look at Carl Clover in the first BlazBlue, he had an infinite, was a puppeteer character but wasn't all that hot; Or C.Viper before her buffs and character discoveries in SF4... I bet there is people that will remember more examples here.

 

[Shaya]

Shaya
Do you think that the shulk buffs in 1.0.4 were substantial with increasing his viability?

Probably helped, but damage numbers on a terrible kit just isn't good enough to function still (brawl ganondorf anyone?)
Heck, he's had the largest sway of buffs of nearly anyone character and it all came in the first patch. As I see it, he's potent on wifi and probably achieves a fair amount of success.

He really needs a mechanical overhaul to be viable for 1v1 offline play. But considering how good he is everywhere else (how godlike is shulk in 1-player modes guys!!!!~_~) it may not happen, and maybe it shouldn't happen.

Probably the only buffs that mattered from before were hitbox adjustments on down tilt (to remove a blind spot), jab damage (because it's almost his only not below average move) and forward air's landing lag.
Animation speeds / endings could be touched up to directly help him, but too much / not the right areas and you get the "very good without arts" Shulk which is probably purposely being avoided by the balance team.
QED Shulk is relegated to, and perhaps was designed to, be great fun on single player modes and they're likely happy with him being >50% win rate on wifi to want to touch up much of anything.
He isn't made for the way we've decided to play the game. Quite a few characters could be in a similar boat.
...or they're in no rush to help him because of the aforementioned, doesn't mean they won't focus on him within the patch cycle of the future (or towards their 'end').

 

[wedl!!]

Can you stop ignoring facts about how top players did with Shulk instead of rambling on about your insane theorycrafting? His skill ceiling and playstyle don't matter when MULTIPLE top players didn't do anything with him.

He isn't getting another chance unless he gets majorly buffed to the point where his playstyle entirely changes in a significant way.

On a sidenote: Basically any character who plays vaguely similar to is probably in the category of characters who don't play like a 1v1-suitable character.

 

[Jams.]

You know, I remember @AlMoStLeGeNdArY putting Shulk in the bottom 5 for various reasons starting from while back and being chewed out for it pretty badly by the people in this thread. I guess he's been vindicated.

 

[Goesasu]

Can you stop ignoring facts about how top players did with Shulk instead of rambling on about your insane theorycrafting? His skill ceiling and playstyle don't matter when MULTIPLE top players didn't do anything with him.

He isn't getting another chance unless he gets majorly buffed to the point where his playstyle entirely changes in a significant way.

On a sidenote: Basically any character who plays vaguely similar to is probably in the category of characters who don't play like a 1v1-suitable character.

Well you guys can put him in bottom 2 for all i care, im not going to have a useless discussion over the internet. Tier list mean so little in the big scheme of things, players have proven that multiple times before (melee jiggly, brawl olimar and so on).

Viability is such a strong word and yet means so little. If melee jiggs is viable only because one guy can use it well then the same could be said for shulk.