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I don't think he can really have a consistent pressure game though. Not with the frame data he needs to have.
He can have burst pressure with Speed. But anything consistent in Vanilla Shulk would be broken in Speed.
Not sure how you could really fix his neutral up either beyond a jab buff. His Nair is usable, Jab buff gives him a grounded option, beyond that you're looking at some pretty serious frame data buffs which is a no go.
Definitely not. Characters can either lame him out while he's in smash mode, or straight up beat him with their superior frame data. His forward tilt not as slow as his other moves, but it's still fairly slow.
Design wise, my problem with Shulk is that his kit is deliberately underpowered to compensate for Monado Arts but the Arts themselves weren't effectively balanced with Shulks own natural flaws in mind.
The drawbacks on Shield, Buster, and Smash makes them either too risky or kills their potency with Buster and especially Smash being too punishing for Shulk considering his awful kit compared to everyone else while Shield just outright cripples Shulk with worse than Ganondorf mobility and an unneeded hit on damage output on top of that. While Speed and Jump have reasonable drawbacks for a well appreciated buff in mobility they don't really fix his main issues: his terrible frame data, barely functional neutral, and non-existent approach options. The mobility just doesn't help that much when he has no ability to approach with his kit, his Ryu-esque aerial inertia hurts his ability to space his aerials, and he still gets bodied in close quarters thanks to his slow ground moves.
Imagine if Speed improved his frame data, Jump improved his ability to weave in the air, Smash didn't make him as light as Jigglypuff, and Shield was reasonably balanced instead of effectively being a joke character mode. Monado Arts rather than forming a proper cornerstone on his moveset is pretty much the purest example of a gimmick in Smash 4.
Shield's actually not too bad if Shulk's got a lead and the opponent doesn't have some incredibly good projectile. Builds your rage at higher percents since you can't really die and makes some attacks unsafe on hit at lower percents since you tke next to no hitstun. Even if worst comes to worst and they just camp you pretty much nothing changes except you're in the lead for 16 seconds longer. I agree that having both the speed and damage reduction is excessive however. I'd remove one of those penalties and weaken the other.
Buster isn't really that risky. You trade a bit of defense for better damage, which translates to better shield damage and safety. Plus your knockback is reduced, which allows Shulk to keep his opponent in range even at higher percents. Probably tied with Jump for second best art in my opinion (Jump would be better but unlike Buster Jump's defense penalty is actually pretty painful).
I agree on Smash: dial back the self-knockback increase please. I shouldn't feel like I'm gambling when I turn it on. Definitely does its job if you ledge-trap properly though and if you screw that up you can just shut it off.
Jump and Speed are fine, though I would love it if Jump improved his air acceleration as well.
The thing about giving Shulk a frame 3 Jab is that now you have great cqc on a character with a really long sword. You know who else has a frame 3 Jab? Kirby. Maybe this speaks more about Kirby's need for a frame 2 Jab, who knows. In my earlier post, where I said every character needs at least one fast option, I meant that it needs to be within reason. Ganondorf with a faster Jab makes sense; he's slow, has no projectile, no sword, is totally helpless at point blank, etc. Ganondorf's current Jab is frame 8, Shulk's is frame 5. I don't think a frame 5 Jab is actually that bad for a swordsman, but 8 frames for Ganondorf (and 11 for Zelda lol) is just awful. Cut a few frames from Ganondorf's, and cut Zelda's startup in half, and that makes more sense to me. (Side note, I don't see a reason for frame 1 Jabs to exist.. and since only two exist, I think ZSS and Mac wouldn't be much worse off with frame 2 Jabs.. could just be my opinion)
Looking at the frame data, Shulk's tilts seem to have numbers comparable to Mario's Upsmash/downsmash, so I could see startup buffs being reasonable there. He has a bunch of problems though. Monado Arts Landing Lag Cancel is highly telegraphed: you have to be falling to the ground right as the giant symbol above your head is about to activate. All people have to do is see that, and roll away, or whatever. The drawbacks on some of his Arts are too high (as a Kirby main, I'm an expert on this subject Smash mode makes me lighter than Jigglypuff, no thanks) and this could just be me, but I feel like they don't last long enough. Either a duration increase or drawback decrease would be cool. The rest of his kit seems pretty functional though. Someone suggested a startup increase for Air Slash, that makes more sense than buffing Jab, since it's more risk/reward, and can make him not helpless in CQC situations.
Balance is hard though. If Shulk gets buffed, then maybe he can contend better with the top tiers, but weaker characters (like certain puffballs that have no projectiles or swords, and have to get in close to beat Shulk) suddenly have a much harder time, when it was already pretty tough in the first place. /plays mario maker
I disagree. In my opinion, there are certainly characters worse than Palutena. People like to rag on her but there are multiple people who do well with her at locals and regionals. IceNinja, TLTC, Ryo (usually does well when he pulls her out), Prince Ramen...
Speaking of which:
So is anyone outside of CFL aware that a Palutena won a tournament?
Every time I've seen Ryo bust out Palutena, he loses that game. And then immediately switches away from her. He has a better record with Lucina than Palutena.
Every time I've seen Ryo bust out Palutena, he loses that game. And then immediately switches away from her. He has a better record with Lucina than Palutena.
I've seen him win more games with Palutena than lose. He won tournaments using her earlier on in the year and even said on stream that he preferred using her over his other characters vs Diddy, pre-patch. I haven't been paying much attention to him lately so maybe things have changed a lot since then, but I watched some of his more recent sets with her a week or so ago and he still won often enough so idk.
According to the theory-put-into-action-put-into-results of our Nintendo World Champion señor
números, Shulk is the optimal choice in a highly political stock free-for-all context.
According to the theory-put-into-action-put-into-results of our Nintendo World Champion señor
números, Shulk is the optimal choice in a highly political stock free-for-all context.
According to the theory-put-into-action-put-into-results of our Nintendo World Champion señor
números, Shulk is the optimal choice in a highly political stock free-for-all context.
I remember when @AlMoStLeGeNdArY called shulk a bad character and you guys absolutely **** on him. Like that pit main saying something about zss a few pages ago, you got 10 people replying to him.
I'm not kidding when I say this is one of my favorite posts from you (and you frequently post good stuff). Not even trying to flatter you; it's just a great example of how to use tournament results without confounding the outcome with other variables.
EDIT: For anyone who thinks this is a joke, click the yellow arrow by Shaya's name. I edited his post down to save space.
Every time I've seen Ryo bust out Palutena, he loses that game. And then immediately switches away from her. He has a better record with Lucina than Palutena.
My opinion of is that she sucks, but isn't quite bottom tier. Given that my opinion of Lucina is about the same, perhaps I should downgrade my opinion of Palu slightly? But then there are other players who achieve(d) good results with her (IceNinja, TLTC, Aerolink [EDIT: still plays her apparently], Jyala?) so I'm not sure if it isn't just a quirk of Ryo's playstyle. It is an interesting data point, but I'm not sure what to make of it yet.
I remember when @AlMoStLeGeNdArY called shulk a bad character and you guys absolutely **** on him. Like that pit main saying something about zss a few pages ago, you got 10 people replying to him..
Lest anyone cite this as a case of a blind squirrel stumbling upon a nut, I specifically remember AL citing 's crap normals as the reason he's bad. We should all be able to admit he was on to something, even those of us who are otherwise inclined to disagree with his other posts.
I remember when @AlMoStLeGeNdArY called shulk a bad character and you guys absolutely **** on him. Like that pit main saying something about zss a few pages ago, you got 10 people replying to him.
To be fair all he articulated on the issue was that his frame data was terrible and rarely analyzed or explained the stance; people were already non-opposed to Shulk being a low tier just he often came across vitriolic about it.
My opinion of is that she sucks, but isn't quite bottom tier. Given that my opinion of Lucina is about the same, perhaps I should downgrade my opinion of Palu slightly? But then there are other players who achieve(d) good results with her (IceNinja, TLTC, AeroLink (RIP)
I remember when @AlMoStLeGeNdArY called shulk a bad character and you guys absolutely **** on him. Like that pit main saying something about zss a few pages ago, you got 10 people replying to him.
Every time someone speaks, everyone else will try to eat them up. I just continue until they give up or fight those who main that character and beat them to prove otherwise(heck, I even said they probably never played a competitive player before and won, with or without luck).
•Rosalina would be the worst character and Little Mac's the best...look what happened.
•Shulk and Ryu are op...look what happened.
•Sakurai should put Dark Pit and Lucina in the game in any shape or form...hate for months.
In the end, someone's gonna complain about something and **** all over that person until they find the next person to do the same thing on.
Okay. It wouldn't do much, his jab isn't as good in range as Ike's, and isn't as good as Ike's frame 4 jab 1 and heavily buffed jab 2-3. It'd make Buster scarier because he would have a frame 3 option to snuff approaches and get decent damage out of it with.
Also can we talk about why Shulk gets a frame 5 jumpsquat when he isn't a high mobility character outside of arts?
Okay. It wouldn't do much, his jab isn't as good in range as Ike's, and isn't as good as Ike's frame 4 jab 1 and heavily buffed jab 2-3. It'd make Buster scarier because he would have a frame 3 option to snuff approaches and get decent damage out of it with.
Also can we talk about why Shulk gets a frame 5 jumpsquat when he isn't a high mobility character outside of arts?
Stupid jumpsquats: Falco at 6 frames, Jiggs at 6 frames, Robin at 7, Ryu at 5 (should be 6), does Link deserve 7?, Sword at 7, Zelda at 6 (I get she's not nimble but she's secretly Sheik and lightweight), Pit at 4 actually make sense cuz wings, Falcon at 5 is dumb, Lucas at 4 is weird, there are probably many more stupid ones than this though. I'm surprised they gave Mac a frame 5 squat (I expect 6 or 7).
Okay. It wouldn't do much, his jab isn't as good in range as Ike's, and isn't as good as Ike's frame 4 jab 1 and heavily buffed jab 2-3. It'd make Buster scarier because he would have a frame 3 option to snuff approaches and get decent damage out of it with.
Also can we talk about why Shulk gets a frame 5 jumpsquat when he isn't a high mobility character outside of arts?
If Robin had a faster jumpsquat (Say it went from 7 to 3 or 4) she would be so much better. What other characters would benefit a lot from better jumpsquats?
If Robin had a faster jumpsquat (Say it went from 7 to 3 or 4) she would be so much better. What other characters would benefit a lot from better jumpsquats?
Stupid jumpsquats: Falco at 6 frames, Jiggs at 6 frames, Robin at 7, Ryu at 5 (should be 6), does Link deserve 7?, Sword at 7, Zelda at 6 (I get she's not nimble but she's secretly Sheik and lightweight), Pit at 4 actually make sense cuz wings, Falcon at 5 is dumb, Lucas at 4 is weird, there are probably many more stupid ones than this though. I'm surprised they gave Mac a frame 5 squat (I expect 6 or 7).
Stupid how?
And jumpsquats being standardized across the cast would be another sweeping change that makes sense to me. I'm thinking 5 frames maybe? I don't care if Bowser thematically makes more sense to take 8 frames to jump, it just holds him back artificially.
Stupid how?
And jumpsquats being standardized across the cast would be another sweeping change that makes sense to me. I'm thinking 5 frames maybe? I don't care if Bowser thematically makes more sense to take 8 frames to jump, it just holds him back artificially.
Stupid if I feel that it doesn't fit the character's weight class and character attributes. But I definitely don't think they should be standardized (maybe per weight class if we must) because it just wouldn't make sense (like the Bowser example). Plus it's good to have character variety to the point where you have to short hop and full hop differently for each character.
Well if you ask me Shulk ain't bad but he does have flaws like many have pointed out already. But he has some nice things going for himself. Fair and Nair have AMAZING range and can pretty much destroy Wario's game plan complitely. Aslo may seem to forget that Shulk can "Do the Mario" when in Shield art. Many also seem to forget his amazing recovery in Jump art. He also has great edgeguarding game (as I mentioned before he is able to edgeguard Wario easily which is very hard on most of the characters).
Buuuuuuuut... he is held back by his poor frame data. But maybe it is better that he has a boor frame data with that range.
Well if you ask me Shulk ain't bad but he does have flaws like many have pointed out already. But he has some nice things going for himself. Fair and Nair have AMAZING range and can pretty much destroy Wario's game plan complitely. Aslo may seem to forget that Shulk can "Do the Mario" when in Shield art. Many also seem to forget his amazing recovery in Jump art. He also has great edgeguarding game (as I mentioned before he is able to edgeguard Wario easily which is very hard on most of the characters).
Buuuuuuuut... he is held back by his poor frame data. But maybe it is better that he has a boor frame data with that range.
He has everything you just said, but he can't make use of it consistently or together in a cohesive set.
It doesn't matter if you've got the best moves in a vacuum: if it doesn't work in practice, it doesn't work.
Shulk doesn't have good responses to shield, CQC options, combo potential or frame data. Everything he can do is either situational (edgeguarding, Monado effects) or matchup dependent (spacing Wario - which doesn't mean much if he can't compete with other high / top-tiers).
He can do good things, but nothing works in a decent gameplan. Big weakness.
If Robin had a faster jumpsquat (Say it went from 7 to 3 or 4) she would be so much better. What other characters would benefit a lot from better jumpsquats?
Problem is that poor jump squats can easily just screw over a character. Think how much better jigglypuff would be if her jumpsquat was reduced by 3 for instance. I think the difference in jump squats is too great. 3-5 makes sense to me, not going all the way up to 7.
Stupid if I feel that it doesn't fit the character's weight class and character attributes. But I definitely don't think they should be standardized (maybe per weight class if we must) because it just wouldn't make sense (like the Bowser example). Plus it's good to have character variety to the point where you have to short hop and full hop differently for each character.
The weight class standardization could work, but it basically translates to "heavier characters have it worse," which, in a series where heavies already struggle, is no good. Also, every character already jumps differently, thanks to sizes, jump heights, and fall speeds.
Think of jumpsquat in another way; if smash games historically had the same jumpsquat for all characters, and someone suddenly suggested "Hey, you know that universal act of jumping? Some characters should perform it more slowly than others," that idea would be met with outrage.
Or another hypothetical... imagine if smash games historically had bigger characters take more frames to put up their shield than smaller characters. Suddenly someone suggests that it should be standardized to frame 1. Would people call that person crazy, and say it doesn't make sense thematically?
I remember Thinkaman talking about something like that in this thread a long time ago. Something about how if you essentially reverse engineer a game mechanic / "advanced technique," would it make sense? I believe an example of his was DACUS. If you take DACUS away, like Nintendo did in the wiiu patch, it's upsetting to players that wanted it. But if it never existed, and somebody suggests "hey, let's add a technique where you dash attack by hitting cstick down, but then quickly hit up+Z, and your character's dash attack gets canceled into an upsmash that can slide far. Also, the distance changes depending on the character, and some characters can have the dash attack hitbox come out before the upsmash hitbox, so you can hit with both. Also, some characters arbitrarily don't get this technique at all." Everybody would think it sounds crazy.
Now do the same thought exercise for certain aspects of characters that are deemed too strong, and you have interesting results. ...did I go off track somewhere in this post?
It's awkward to compare a character parameter with an engine exploit. I see where you're coming from, but it's a bad comparison.
There are legitimate reasons to vary jumpsquat times between characters, anyway. Mega Man's short jumpsquat lets him easily use sh lemons for spacing. Presumably Robin has a high jumpsquat time to prevent her from quickly jumping out of Thunder charging and/or to limit the speed of her jumping into an aerial without affecting the frame data of the actual moves. I'd assume Jiggs' high jumpsquat is for similar reasons, to coax her into using multiple jumps at once instead of just repeatedly jumping off the ground. Tone down Bowser to a 3f jumpsquat and his sh bair that kills earlier than most characters' fsmashes goes from 17f to 12f, now being faster than most of them as well.
Not to say all jumpsquat numbers are justified, but there are real reasons to not standardize them.
I admit I'm not really capable of understanding the ramifications of standardized jumpsquat frames, but if it'll help low tiers like Shulk, Robin, Bowser, Jigglypuff, etc. then it sounds like a good idea.
Ehh, balance via homogenization never sounds right in my mind. Though I do agree the slower characters have a pretty lame deal with extra lag from just moving around. Maybe make the jumpsquats that are on heavyweights slightly super armor, briefly. If you are so big and strong it takes longer to lift on the ground, needles and jabs shouldn't keep you there.
I don't really want to derail the thread with more hypothetical balance change stuff (we do that enough as is), but I'd rather just see edge cases tweaked than everyone standardized.
Yoshi probably isn't getting a buffed jumpsquat without nair becoming 5~6f to keep it from being too good of an OoS option, but that would hurt its combo breaking potential. He'd also gain a reliable dthrow>uair even at kill percent, which may or may not be warranted but would more likely happen via shaving frames off dthrow so as not to affect the rest of his kit.
Falco's jumpsquat limits his amazing aerial frame data and vertical chasing, so he doesn't become a polarizing character with poor mobility that consistently converts huge damage or kills off grabs or tilts when he does get in.
7~8f jumpsquats are completely unjustified though, and characters like Jiggs, Zelda, and Samus aren't going to break the game with faster jumpsquats either.
Problem is that poor jump squats can easily just screw over a character. Think how much better jigglypuff would be if her jumpsquat was reduced by 3 for instance. I think the difference in jump squats is too great. 3-5 makes sense to me, not going all the way up to 7.
Yup, totally. While this was a different game, Ganon's abyssmal jumpsquat in Melee is one of the main reasons his viability is dropping, and why it was the biggest buff he got in PM.
Edit: Seems this topic was already mentioned... I was busy, so I had this post set up, but not posted hours ago.
Food for thought: jump frames. Basic data that should have been known the moment frame data studies began if you had a means to record. Here's a list of everyone's jump frames in order of highest to lowest and in alphabetical order. Pit, Marth, and Mario take precedence over Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dr. Mario.
Now that's done, who are the most overall mobile characters in the game with frame 4 jumps? Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS. Of those 3, Sheik and ZSS are the most notorious for their air game. Now, who else is notorious for their air game and has a frame 4 jump? Definitely pre-patch 1.0.8 Diddy, Fox, Meta Knight, and Pikachu? Meta Knight? He doesn't have an air approach! Yeah, but his frame 4 jump definitely aids in his ability to immediately followup into his infamous Uair strings to Shuttle Loop.
Frame 5 jumps are common, so there's nothing to be said, except... what about the frame 6 and above jumpers? Bowser is the only character to have a frame 8 jump. Bowser's fastest aerial is his frame 8 Nair. Assuming it's perfectly inputted, his fastest aerial is actually frame 16. Now, let's take Sheik whose fastest aerial is a frame 3 Nair. Sheik jumping and doing a Nair takes only 7 frames with against Bowser, 9 frames of leeway. You want a slow aerial? How about Greninja's frame 12 Nair. Bowser and Greninja are both going to hit on frame, but who's going to be in the air first? Sure as hell ain't Bowser. So, this effectively means Bowser is disadvantaged to all characters when taking an aerial option.
There was a question on why the bad guys almost always lose quick draw duels to the good guys in westerns. The explanation was that the bad guy consciously thinks of drawing and shooting while the good guy reacts and reflexive answers back. The idea was that reflexive actions are faster than conscious actions. This is one reason why Falco's short hop is dangerous. Reflexively, he will throw out one of the fastest and strongest aerials to answer back to your conscious thought of I'm going to intercept Falco and outwit him.
Here's the thing though, what if both players are playing on reaction and attempt to use an aerial to hit each other? 15 out of 55 characters will be disadvantaged because of their slower jumps. That's a third - approximately 27% - of the cast who attempting to reflexively jump and use an aerial will be disadvantaged to the rest of the cast. 13 out of 55 characters will be advantaged to all characters because of their quick jumps and of those 13, 6 of them, Diddy, Fox, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Sheik, and ZSS are considered top to high tier characters. 7 to 9 of the 5 frame jumpers, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Mario, Ness, ROB?, Rosalina, Ryu, Sonic, and Villager are also considered for top to high tier. The other characters? Yoshi and Wario are considered top to high tier while Ike is only considered high at best.
You start to question why? Why the hell does Falco and Yoshi, famous for their strong and high jumps in their games and in Smash have one of the slower jumps? At least Luigi has an average jump speed, but in the Mario universe, it was said that Luigi's holding back for whatever reason. He could have had a higher jump than lightweight Palutena with a frame 4 jump. Imagine that... Oh wait, you're going to have night terrors now. Falco and Yoshi make up with whatever they have; Falco's fast and strong attacks and Yoshi's high mobility and fast to average speed attacks, but what about someone like Zelda? She's not exactly mobile and a slow jump adds onto that. Zelda's slow, her moves are slow, and her aerials outside of Nair and Uair are situational. Her air game and even ground game, especially close-range and mid-range is almost nonexistent. So, with good game design, Zelda should have a slow jump... I'm sorry, but what? Characters like Link, Ike, Robin, Charizard, and Ganondorf still have functioning aerials e.g. Ganondorf's moveset being derived off of Captain Falcon aids in good speed, coverage, and low end lag or landing lag and Charizard's at least fast on the ground and has functioning aerials. Another example is Robin: Robin's aerials are phenomenal, but those small things, her jump, matters. A slow jump will hurt her aerials even though her long to mid-range are good, having a slow jump and a hilariously not funny slow ground speed are all points against her. Meanwhile, someone like Fox not only has fast ground speed, but fast jumps, fast attacks, a fast standing grab, and even fast, burst kill moves like Up Smash and Uair that can be setup from various moves such as Nair, Dair, and jab.
The bad characters of this game are not just undertuned, they're also punished, so to speak, with questionable design choices such as sporadic grab frames and jump frames. I mean, you start to wonder why Samus is so weak or why Zelda has 3 situational aerials and enters helpless mode for a move that slows her momentum down and Din's Fire being way to slow of an option to cover her recovery unlike Fox's Blaster or Yoshi's Egg Toss. In contrast, good characters are both overtuned and blessed with good, albeit questionable design choices like the disjoints on Captain Falcon, very, very low end lag on Sheik, especially her Needles allowing her to play at any range, and Rosalina not only having above average ground and air mobility, her air acceleration is also top-notch with the likes of Wario, Palutena, and just below Yoshi and Jigglypuff. Grab frames are varied, but also "standard" in weird ways like Fox and Falco share the same dash and pivot grabs, but Falco's standing grab is among the slowest melee grabs, how Ganondorf and Captain Falcon share standing grabs, but different dash and pivot grabs or how Marth, Lucina, Robin, Roy have the same grab frames, but Roy's overall more mobile allowing him to rush in and grab as he pleases in contrast to Robin and even Marth and Lucina.
I mentioned this idea already, but characters should have standardized jumps and grabs. Standard jump frames no matter how slow or how fast means nobody is at an advantage or disadvantage. Pretty sure it's standard for other fighting games such as Street Fighter and The King of Fighters to have the same jump frames for all characters. The only difference? Jump arcs and overall mobility. That's kind of like jump height and, well, overall mobility. Take Nash from Street Fighter V. Nash has overall slowish walk speed, a fast dash, and normal jump arc. Now, what would happen if he also had a slow jump? Kind of screws over Nash when he doesn't have any invincible anti-airs and one of his considered anti-airs is to jump and air grab. Now, take The King of Fighters XIII. King is considered, well, the queen of zoning - King's a woman - and like everyone else in KoF XIII, has a frame 5 jump. Now, what happens if it's frame 4? Just 1 frame? That 1 frame adds up when you consider her aerials, her aerial specials, and overall, her options both on the ground and in the air against everyone else. She will be advantaged to the entire cast of KoF XIII not matter how subtle. The main issue is that it adds up. Fox to Mario's jump is only 1 frame, Fox to Falco is 2 frames, Fox to Ike is 3 frames, and Fox to Bowser is 4 frames. That's double - Bowser takes double the amount of frames to do any aerial option against the likes of Fox, Sheik, and ZSS. Even if there should be a difference, it shouldn't be double between any character like that. Fastest jump frame of 4 to slowest jump frame of 6 is better than 4 to 8 and 4 to 5 is better than 4 to 6. 4 to 4? 5 to 5? 6 to 6? Or even 10 to 10. Hella slow jumps for everyone, but guess what? Everyone would have frame 10 jumps.
Smash mode makes me lighter than Jigglypuff, no thanks) and this could just be me, but I feel like they don't last long enough. Either a duration increase or drawback decrease would be cool. The rest of his kit seems pretty functional though. Someone suggested a startup increase for Air Slash, that makes more sense than buffing Jab, since it's more risk/reward, and can make him not helpless in CQC situations.
is that she sucks, but isn't quite bottom tier. Given that my opinion of Lucina is about the same, perhaps I should downgrade my opinion of Palu slightly? But then there are other players who achieve(d) good results with her (IceNinja, TLTC, Aerolink [EDIT: still plays her apparently], 
