Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

If the best Greninja player right now keeps getting roadblocked by Sheiks, then I don't think the others are going to do much better.

Sheik is far too overwhelming for Greninja, the only thing we have over her is that we have more immediate kill power on our moves, otherwise she just destroys us unless she gets really outplayed.

Some isn't perfect, so he can't be looked at as the de facto of MUs and theory. Results only really start to make or break theories and characters as the game collects multiple years under their belt.

 

[Jamurai]

How are we supposed to judge matchups then? Matchups are obviously really important to know about and discuss. One can either

• Theorise, which never goes well because people just start arguing whenever someone questions if a theory will work in practice, leading to the degeneration of most productive discussions
• Look at results, which apparently only matter once a certain sample size has been reached after "multiple years".

We may as well never discuss matchups because we will never come up with anything concrete, if that is the case. The best we can do is to do both, to look at evidence from both aspects and how well they correlate with each other. We're never going to get anywhere if theories are scoffed at, and if results are brought up from high-to-top level play, people say "they were just outplayed" or similar. We have to work with what we've got.

If it is theorised that Greninja/Sheik is 35:65 and recent results back it up, then that's that. If MK/Sheik is changed to 40:60 over time and the results also reflect that change, then that's that. It's obvious that matchups will change as the game develops, but that doesn't mean we should just wait for years to get a more accurate value when we can discuss it now.

(idk if I've managed to make my point clear, I'm pretty bad at wording stuff like this.)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How are we supposed to judge matchups then? Matchups are obviously really important to know about and discuss. One can either

• Theorise, which never goes well because people just start arguing whenever someone questions if a theory will work in practice, leading to the degeneration of most productive discussions
• Look at results, which apparently only matter once a certain sample size has been reached after "multiple years".

We may as well never discuss matchups because we will never come up with anything concrete, if that is the case. The best we can do is to do both, to look at evidence from both aspects and how well they correlate with each other. We're never going to get anywhere if theories are scoffed at, and if results are brought up from high-to-top level play, people say "they were just outplayed" or similar. We have to work with what we've got.

If it is theorised that Greninja/Sheik is 35:65 and recent results back it up, then that's that. If MK/Sheik is changed to 40:60 over time and the results also reflect that change, then that's that. It's obvious that matchups will change as the game develops, but that doesn't mean we should just wait for years to get a more accurate value when we can discuss it now.

(idk if I've managed to make my point clear, I'm pretty bad at wording stuff like this.)

You're right, I just thought thinking that a certain player struggling with a MU has to do with it being nigh-unwinnable because it's at the top level is extreme when it could be that it simply him not playing mu correctly, or such. There's a lot of variables at hand in each game and its wrong to neglect them in favor of one.

EDIT: my point is poorly made I think

 

[FullMoon]

It's not like Some is the only Greninja that struggles with Sheik, I do, pretty much every other Greninja does. It's our worst MU by far and no one else compares.

Sheik is a massive roadblock for Greninja and she's basically the only thing keeping him from being solo viable.

 

[Hippieslayer]

ZSS and her sexy 5 frame start up of SHAD~

In fact out of all of those 4 frame jump squat animations, ZSS and Diddy are the only ones with option-rich usages of it.
ZSS can uair, fair, bair, dair (flip jump: can act before landing)
Diddy can uair, fair, bair, nair

Fox has no SHAD game whatsoever, he lands during the landing lag period of his AD.
I believe greninja is similar too, he would maybe get a single hit out of uair or bair
I'm not sure about duck hunt (nair?)
Megaman gets the first two hits of his bair? A single pellet?
MK can nair/jump
Pits can jump, but lose all their auto cancel choices if they SHAD; i'm not sure if he can sh ad jump and ac his aerials.
Sheik can only SHAD auto cancel landing with something.
Kirby can bair/jump
Pika can shad aerial but he loses all of his auto cancel frames and has horrendous landing lag; back air can work though.
Lucas I'm not entirely sure of but I tend not to feel he has much of shad game at all from what I've seen.

Pacman can SHAD>nair which is pretty great, maybe fair too? I dunno, but nair definitely.

 

[Nu~]

Pacman can SHAD>nair which is pretty great, maybe fair too? I dunno, but nair definitely.

Uair as well. Dee does it to start combos.

 

[monzer]

Ok explaination time:

This list isn't about solo main viability. No top players solo main. This is more about being able to do well in top 8 in nationals.

Pits: I feel the Pits are overated. They just ding have anything that makes them be high tier. Falcon has his combos, Villager has his gimping and bowling balls. The Pits just don't have anything.

Jiggs: Her fast air speed and minor combos have to amount to something.

Swordfighter: he has no combos and no high level player uses him that I know of.

Donkey Kong: he has so many combos, having a 62% combo is just amazing, as well as having kill confirms at low-mid percents. He is also really heavy. His only weakness is that his recovery is terrible and he gets comboed easily. DKWill is also doing very well with him, that was the main factor for him being listed viable.

R.O.B: I honestly don't know that much about R.O.B. Most people put him as a middle tier, so that's why I put him in somewhat viable.

Greninja: Pretty much the same as R.O.B. I haven't ever seen anyone put him as higher than a mid tier other than Zero. He also has a really bad matchup with Shiek, shirts people have already brought up.

Pac-man: Abadongo showed us how good Pac-man is. He plays so differently than the other characters no one really knows how to deal with him and I feel that puts him as viable. There's really no way to challenge the fire hydrant, Pac-man forces you to play by his rules, very few characters can do that.

Peach: Peach clearly has the potential to be viable, but know one had reached that potential yet. Eventually some good player will pick up Peach and do well with her, showing how good she is. But for now, she isn't fully viable.

King Dedede: honestly the only reason why I put him here is because his nuetral B works as a somewhat reliable suicide option. Other than that he really isn't that good.

I think that covers everything.

Edit: the things I listed here aren't the only reasons why these characters are where they are, these are just the main reasons.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's not like Some is the only Greninja that struggles with Sheik, I do, pretty much every other Greninja does. It's our worst MU by far and no one else compares.

Sheik is a massive roadblock for Greninja and she's basically the only thing keeping him from being solo viable.

Well then my mistake for making a assumption. But, not being solo viable isn't a really bad thing tbh.

 

[Mario766]

Ike's got that SHAD game where it's infinitely useless because no option comes out fast enough and his short hop lasts longer than his roll.

So if you ever want to predict something and SHAD? May as well roll kekekeke

 

[Nu~]

Ok explaination time:

This list isn't about solo main viability. No top players solo main. This is more about being able to do well in top 8 in nationals.


Pac-man: Abadongo showed us how good Pac-man is. He plays so differently than the other characters no one really knows how to deal with him and I feel that puts him as viable. There's really no way to challenge the fire hydrant, Pac-man forces you to play by his rules, very few characters can do that.

You could always, oh I don't know, perhaps attack it? Maybe?

You seem to be listening to ZeRo a little too much. The hydrant alone is rather weak because there is a lot of counter play to it. The hitbox disappears whenever someone attacks it, people like Ganon can blow it up safely and quickly, and if you have a multi-hitting uair, you can attack through hydrants thrown downwards.

What makes it powerful is its versatility and how well it meshes with our other tools. It can be a wall to people that can't one-shot it without using a very unsafe attack(shiek and MK), a hit box to cover your approach (not to endlessly spam without following up on it), fruit gushing capabilities, strengthens trampoline camping...Its not a win condition on its own. You want to combine it with the other weapons in his arsenal.

"The hydrant can't be challenged" myth is dangerous to the future of the meta and I want to debunk it right now.

I would talk about pit, but I'll let the more knowledgeable pit main Wintropy handle it

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Donkey Kong: he has so many combos, having a 62% combo is just amazing, as well as having kill confirms at low-mid percents.

Do... do you unplug your controller whenever you get grabbed or something?

 

[Nu~]

Do... do you unplug your controller whenever you get grabbed or something?

Nah. He mains falcon.

Mr. Disadvantage

 

[Routa]

Well you are correct about lack of top players when it comes to Swordfighter, but he/she/it has combos and different combos depending from his/her/its size. F-throw > Dash attack, D-throw > Uair, Nair > Jab, U-tilt > Bair, Nair > Side-B (Ike one), Side-B > Side-B > Dash Attack/Down-B (Ganondorf one)/Grab combo... In my eyes the problem isn't lack of combos, but the lack of reliable ko setups and his movement speed.

 

[Antonykun]

stuff

welp time for me to skip this

Swordfighter

well, maybe he's going to mention one of his many weaknesses

he has no combos

of all the things wrong with swordfighter (mobility, lack of kill confirms, slow frame data, easy to camp/edgeguard having a potential 20:80 or worse MU with Sheik because she abuses all of his weaknesses. ect.) you chose the ONE thing that's really good about Swordfighter just visit here to see all the comboes this character can do:
http://smashboards.com/threads/swordfighter-combo-discussion.403344/

I don't usually get this triggered about something but come on.

also Routa ninja'd me mid reply

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Nah. He mains falcon.

Mr. Disadvantage

I'm gonna be honest with you
DK has the potential to annihilate Falcon now. It's actually one of the most volatile matchups I know of, because DK and Falcon both have amazing advantage states, and crappy disadvantage states. Light fast fallers are like candy for DK for low percent combos and early kills, but on the flip side Falcon eats DK alive when he can get in. It's seriously like a game of Melee when it comes to this matchup. Definitely fun to play but only if you're outplaying your opponent.

 

[Mario766]

Ike vs DK is probably more volatile, as it's basically impossible for Ike to DI out of the really strong DK combos, it turns into a 50/50 for DK and he still gets follow-ups even if you don't get the super big up-b combo.

It also doesn't help that Ike racks up damage super fast with excellent anti-DK edgeguards.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm going to stop all you and say Falcon vs anyone is hyper volitile
because Falcon is a mess of a character

 

[Routa]

I'm sorry senpai Antonykun please forgive me.

Wait... Why are you holding an axe in your hand... No... No! Oh please god... Nooo! *slaughtering noises*

Anyways monzer ... You put Triple D (mah innuendos) at that spot 'cause of N-special suicide? Might need a bit more reasoning.

If you ask me when you make a tier list... Well only include characters you know fairly well. For example I would not include WFT in my tier list just 'cause I don't know enough about her/him to place her/him anywhere in the tier list.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm sorry senpai Antonykun please forgive me.

Wait... Why are you holding an axe in your hand... No... No! Oh please god... Nooo! *slaughtering noises*

Anyways you put Triple D (mah innuendos) at that spot 'cause of N-special suicide?

If you ask me when you make a tier list... Well only include characters you know fairly well. For example I would not include WFT in my tier list just 'cause I don't know enough about her/him to place her/him anywhere in the tier list.

its far better to just talk about your character and whether or not they are viable tier lists reek of bias and are way too easy to get caught up in say "X isn't 27th zhe's 20th" among other things

 

[wedl!!]

Peach: Peach clearly has the potential to be viable, but know one had reached that potential yet. Eventually some good player will pick up Peach and do well with her, showing how good she is. But for now, she isn't fully viable.

I don't want to live on this cruel earth any longer.

 

[Wintropy]

monzer , I'm going to try to say this in the nicest way possible, and I mean no disrespect, but I don't think you have detailed competitive experience to verify your theories. Most of what you said is based on theorycraft ("you can't challenge Pac-Man's hydrant"), ignorance of the facts ("Swordfighter has no combos"), popular opinion ("R.O.B. is mid-tier") or examining moves in a vacuum ("Villager has their bowling ball").

That isn't how you contribute to this thread: there is a certain expectation of quality here, which means that you're expected to be able to back up your claims with good evidence and, preferably, experiential understanding. I know you have good intentions and you clearly want to be involved in the discussion. That's okay. That said, if I were you, I'd take a step back and get a better understanding of how the competitive metagame and discussion in this thread works.

The reason I say this is because (possibly with the most misguided of intentions, heh) I want to educate you and be educated in return. To that end, I want to help by responding to the claim I feel most comfortable discussing - that is, Pit's viability:

Pit does have something going for him. Pit has everything going for him: good frame data, combo potential, a versatile kit, off-stage prowess, a useful projectile and solid grab options and followups. What he doesn't have is anything that's really exceptional. That means he's good at everything, but he isn't great. You're right, in a sense: he doesn't have Captain Falcon's combo game or Villager's projectiles. He has a bit of both, but neither in the same extreme quantity.

In theory, this means Pit is a weak character, because he has no exceptional strengths. That said, the inverse of this is equally true: because he doesn't commit to any one type of playstyle, he has no distinguished weaknesses either. This means that he has to play to outwit and outpace the opponent, rather than rushing them down or keeping on pressure. Pit is solid in neutral, with good footsies bolstered by a quick three-hit jab, good pivot options with his tilts and grab, solid airs for spacing and strong combo potential. He has a relatively even matchup spread because of this: he doesn't have the overt strength to counter others, yet he doesn't have the fatal weaknesses to be countered either. Don't be so quick to write him off as the kind of fighter who's "okay at everything, good at nothing": he's definitely good at everything in his own way and has no abject weaknesses, which means he can play on reaction and has decent options for keeping his opponents out. That in itself is a very good strength to have. Pit needs good fundamentals to be, himself, good.

That's kind of the reason you don't see very many pros use Pit: he just doesn't have the distinguished strengths that others do, which means his matchups can and quite often do come down to "how well can I outplay this guy?" The difference is that, with Pit, you won't get the same reward for outplaying the opponent that you do with stronger characters, but you don't get punished the same way for getting outplayed either. Captain Falcon may have his combos, but his disadvantage state is very weak and he can't react well to pressure himself; Villager may have their projectiles, but an opponent that can get into their space can make it difficult for them to react. It's a matter of playing to your strengths and mitigating your weaknesses. Pit can still play to his strengths without having to worry about mitigating his weaknesses in the same way.

I don't want to go into too much detail, because I want this to be a very superficial "beginner's guide to Pit". This is just the basics of why Pit is considered a high-tier character. If you want to examine it in greater detail, I'd suggest going to the Pit board or watching footage of any of the top Pits (Nairo, Earth, Pink Fresh, Technology) play.

FullMoon , what is it about the Sheik matchup that's so difficult for Greninja? Seems to me he's got it way harder than most other high-tiers.

 

[Smog Frog]

i wager that his aerials dont really let him challenge her in the air, also he's combo food

but thats just an educated guess from a glance at what they have

 

[Sinister Slush]

Late :>

Yoshi DA is ok, 6/9% and goes far.
But then if people realize that if they shield and Fsmash behind them it's a free punish due to the endlag of the move. If it was like 3DS days DA then I'd say it's good.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You could always, oh I don't know, perhaps attack it? Maybe?

You seem to be listening to ZeRo a little too much. The hydrant alone is rather weak because there is a lot of counter play to it. The hitbox disappears whenever someone attacks it, people like Ganon can blow it up safely and quickly, and if you have a multi-hitting uair, you can attack through hydrants thrown downwards.

What makes it powerful is its versatility and how well it meshes with our other tools. It can be a wall to people that can't one-shot it without using a very unsafe attack(shiek and MK), a hit box to cover your approach (not to endlessly spam without following up on it), fruit gushing capabilities, strengthens trampoline camping...Its not a win condition on its own. You want to combine it with the other weapons in his arsenal.

"The hydrant can't be challenged" myth is dangerous to the future of the meta and I want to debunk it right now.

I would talk about pit, but I'll let the more knowledgeable pit main Wintropy handle it

Until I watched Esam's "Deal With It" video on Pac-Man, I had literally no idea you could stuff the hydrant by attacking it while it's flying at you. And it's really just a stroke of luck I saw that video at all.

What I'm getting at is that Pac-Man (and probably some other characters) just has so much unusual stuff involved with him that you really can't be too mad when people just don't know about the counterplay. I mean, good job and all helping spread the word, but I hope you realize that to anyone who doesn't play Pac-Man, a lot of his kit is really hard to figure out and adapt to.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I honestly think has it worse then vs . His disadvantage state is really really pathetic vs her both (on-stage and off-stage). Not to mention I have noticed a trend that Falcon's actually have a hard time killing sheik (poor bair nerf and uair knock back reduction). So Falcon not only loses neutral, off-stage (he loses hard) but his advantage state doesn't make up for his serious flaws in the MU vs Sheik thanks to her unparalleled disadvantage state. Overall This MU is just really crap at top / high level as Sheik literally doesn't have to commit at all while Falcon has to go out of his way to beat her and (probably still lose).

 

[monzer]

Wait, swordfighter got buffed! Really? He has combos? How did I not hear about this before? Ok he's a mid-tier now I guess.

But honestly, I'd have to agree with what the other people on this thread are saying. I really don't know much about most characters that I haven't used before. The only characters that I really have knowledge on are Mario, Luigi Falcon, Villager and a few others. I really don't know crap about most mid tiers.

I also admit I am biased towards troll characters like Villager and Pac-man. Also, when I said "you can't challenge the hydrant" I meant as its falling, like its hard to stop Pac-man from dropping the hydrant. I think if you have a disjoint you can hit it back, but that's about it.

I'll probably stay on the thread, but I'm not bringing up any point about characters I know nothing about.

 

[TurboLink]

Wait, swordfighter got buffed! Really? He has combos? How did I not hear about this before? Ok he's a mid-tier now I guess.

But honestly, I'd have to agree with what the other people on this thread are saying. I really don't know much about most characters that I haven't used before. The only characters that I really have knowledge on are Mario, Luigi Falcon, Villager and a few others. I really don't know crap about most mid tiers.

I also admit I am biased towards troll characters like Villager and Pac-man. Also, when I said "you can't challenge the hydrant" I meant as its falling, like its hard to stop Pac-man from dropping the hydrant.

I'll probably stay on the thread, but I'm not bringing up any point about characters I know nothing about.

I once used Link's up air to send a falling hydrant straight back to its owner for a KO once against a Pac-Man player. :o Funny stuff.

 

[Antonykun]

Wait, swordfighter got buffed! Really? He has combos? How did I not hear about this before? Ok he's a mid-tier now I guess.

I mean
down throw-up air, up tilt Xn, and jab cancels were always a part of Swordfighter since 1.0.0 and those are the more important comboes

th patches may have added down tilt comboes.
out side of the down tilt buff Swordfighter's combo game didn't change much

 

[Sir Tundra]

Oh man it seems playing ROA made me miss quite alot of things from this thread hasn't it?

I noticed you guys were talking about shulk a couple pages back.

It's really funny how people said shulk was semi decent at first due to theorycraft. But eversince people have been going result>theory. Shulk has been seen as a joke. He's now seen in the lower half of the cast. Considering so many people have tried to pick the monado boy up and failed. Sorry shulk but you if there's one thing you won't be feeling it's success.


vs is fun..

For Fox

For it's a living hell. Sure DK has the cargo throw sheningans but none of that even matters when fox far outspeeds him, combo's him super hard, and his neutral game completely poops on DK's.

As long as breathes DK will never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ,ever, ever,ever be solo viable

Even DKwill admits this matchup is horrible for DK the moment I asked him how DK fairs in the Fox vs DK matchup

So much earlier in this thread I was a little hard on the Links, and I have to say my opinion has changed. Toon Link actually has combos and bomb trolling is really fun. I see them both as mid tiers now.

This is my new viability list
Viable:

Somewhat Viable:

Not Viable:


If you have any questions feel free to ask, but I think this is pretty straightforward.

Ok explaination time:

This list isn't about solo main viability. No top players solo main. This is more about being able to do well in top 8 in nationals.

Pits: I feel the Pits are overated. They just ding have anything that makes them be high tier. Falcon has his combos, Villager has his gimping and bowling balls. The Pits just don't have anything.

Jiggs: Her fast air speed and minor combos have to amount to something.

Swordfighter: he has no combos and no high level player uses him that I know of.

Donkey Kong: he has so many combos, having a 62% combo is just amazing, as well as having kill confirms at low-mid percents. He is also really heavy. His only weakness is that his recovery is terrible and he gets comboed easily. DKWill is also doing very well with him, that was the main factor for him being listed viable.

R.O.B: I honestly don't know that much about R.O.B. Most people put him as a middle tier, so that's why I put him in somewhat viable.

Greninja: Pretty much the same as R.O.B. I haven't ever seen anyone put him as higher than a mid tier other than Zero. He also has a really bad matchup with Shiek, shirts people have already brought up.

Pac-man: Abadongo showed us how good Pac-man is. He plays so differently than the other characters no one really knows how to deal with him and I feel that puts him as viable. There's really no way to challenge the fire hydrant, Pac-man forces you to play by his rules, very few characters can do that.

Peach: Peach clearly has the potential to be viable, but know one had reached that potential yet. Eventually some good player will pick up Peach and do well with her, showing how good she is. But for now, she isn't fully viable.

King Dedede: honestly the only reason why I put him here is because his neutral B works as a somewhat reliable suicide option. Other than that he really isn't that good.

I think that covers everything.

Alright before I go on any longer I simply have to ask. Did you make this tier list with customs in mind? Because it seems you have Palutena on Somewhat viable. Then again Mii brawler is also in semi viable tier so I doubt that to be the case.

Alright Monzer I'm going to say this in the most nicest way I can. I know everyone has different opinions when it comes to tiers and not everyone will agree on the same thing but some things in this tier list seems off.

First off you put in solo viable tier yet you put and / in semi viable.

Your reasons for this are as follows

Donkey Kong: he has so many combos, having a 62% combo is just amazing, as well as having kill confirms at low-mid percents. He is also really heavy. His only weakness is that his recovery is terrible and he gets comboed easily. DKWill is also doing very well with him, that was the main factor for him being listed viable.

and for peach and the pits

Peach: Peach clearly has the potential to be viable, but know one had reached that potential yet. Eventually some good player will pick up Peach and do well with her, showing how good she is. But for now, she isn't fully viable.

Pits: I feel the Pits are overated. They just ding have anything that makes them be high tier. Falcon has his combos, Villager has his gimping and bowling balls. The Pits just don't have anything.

First off Dk has horrible matchups against rushdown character's most notably . As I stated before as long as Fox breathes as well as many other rushdown character's exist DK will never be solo viable. Second DK's recovery is not terrible. His horizontal recovery is amazing however his vertical recovery is trash. Just because a character can't recovery vertically doesn't mean there recovery is bad.

As of peach. I hope your aware of slayerz. You know the peach main who manage to get 7th at paragon. Oh let's not forget iiold who managed to get 17th in smashcon. Yeah I'm pretty sure there's actually good players who indeed are doing pretty well with her.

as for pit.. well I think Wintropy said it best

Your reasoning for putting and are rather poor.

You put in semi viable because of his neutral B. Yeah I'm pretty sure it's gonna take more then 1 good move to put a character from non viable to semi viable especially when you have a character like D3 who has terrible attributes like being fat, slow, combo food, terrible frame data, and a worthless projectile that can be reflected by almost anything.

For jigglypuff. Look if I'm not mistaken people in this thread have been talking how jigglypuff fairs. And if I'm correct most people said she fairs pretty terribly in the meta right now. The fact that she's super light in a game like smash 4 is pretty problematic. Not to mention being floaty and having an amazing air speed doesn't mean a thing considering most character's have really good recoveries and most character's don't fall like bricks(except for ). The reason why was top tier was because of the fact that she was floaty in a game where nearly everyone fell like bricks and most character's couldn't recover for the life of them at high %. Not to mention bair was stupid and the unholy rest. Jigglypuff also has almost no answers to shield whatsoever. Her throw followups are just laughably horrible. Sure Fox and rosalina have bad throw followups but fox has an amazing neutral, A killer combo game, great approaches, and is really fast while Rosalina has luma which is all she needs. Jigglypuff doesn't have anything that can even match fox's or rosalinas attributes. throw followups would help jiggs alot. Sure side b does alot of shield damage but it's so predictable it's not worth even mentioning. Also minor combos? more like almost nonexistent. All this character has is up tilt juggles that only work at very low % and fair of pains. Sure she does have ways to setup to rest but 1 of them only works at low %.. why? while the other one is not even safe to pull off. Also I don't even know a single notable person outside of hungrybox who even mains this character.

 

[FullMoon]

FullMoon , what is it about the Sheik matchup that's so difficult for Greninja? Seems to me he's got it way harder than most other high-tiers.

Greninja really relies on his shurikens to compensate for his overall poor frame data, however Sheik's needles just say no to it. Her mobility is almost as good as ours, her recovery is really good as well and her frame data is much better than ours.

Greninja has a strong mid-range game, but Sheik just ignores it and goes for the CQC where we lose, or she just goes for long-range where we also lose.

Sheik's low damage output and killing power means that Greninja can make a comeback if he gets a good read and does his combos/strings and gets a lot of damage from it but it's not nearly enough to make this MU good for us.

Characters that are good against Greninja tend to be the ones who are fast, ignore shurikens and have better frame data, which is why we also lose to Fox and Sonic, though they're much more bearable than Sheik because they have more exploitable weaknesses (Fox's recovery and Sonic's struggle to land are much easier to capitalize on).

 

[PK Gaming]

Greninja really relies on his shurikens to compensate for his overall poor frame data, however Sheik's needles just say no to it. Her mobility is almost as good as ours, her recovery is really good as well and her frame data is much better than ours.

Greninja has a strong mid-range game, but Sheik just ignores it and goes for the CQC where we lose, or she just goes for long-range where we also lose.

Sheik's low damage output and killing power means that Greninja can make a comeback if he gets a good read and does his combos/strings and gets a lot of damage from it but it's not nearly enough to make this MU good for us.

Characters that are good against Greninja tend to be the ones who are fast, ignore shurikens and have better frame data, which is why we also lose to Fox and Sonic, though they're much more bearable than Sheik because they have more exploitable weaknesses (Fox's recovery and Sonic's struggle to land are much easier to capitalize on).

She has kill set ups, so i'm not so sure about that.

 

[Asdioh]

Given the results Greninja has, I do have to say that he's likely not solo viable with Sheik around. The MU really is looking to be unwinnable at top level for us given how Some keeps getting roadblocked by her.

The MU is probably 65:35 in Sheik's favor and that doesn't really bode well for Greninja's viability. He would be completely fine otherwise though.

I just wanna say I just watched Ninjalink's Greninja lose pretty badly to Dill's Sheik. IDK how good Dill is, but NL kept getting hit for tons of damage (he kept living past like 150%, but it didn't matter) and it was pretty sad. So if this is a common thing, ouch.

I also saw Mikekirby barely lose to a Sheik. Final hit was a Dthrow->Upair, I never woulda seen that coming. Meanwhile Kirby's Bair doesn't kill Sheik offstage, when both characters are above 100%, please buff

Sheik's low damage output and killing power means that Greninja can make a comeback if he gets a good read and does his combos/strings and gets a lot of damage from it but it's not nearly enough to make this MU good for us.

this is literally what happened

 

[Green L]

There are plenty of vulnerable / short recoveries in smash 4. Mario, Ganon, luigi, roy, falcon, marth, little mac, Ness, etc. There are also characters who have a far recovery but don't have a hitbox like Pit, Villager and rosalina. So saying smash 4 recoveries are godly is an overstatement.

 

[Antonykun]

There are plenty of vulnerable / short recoveries in smash 4. Mario, Ganon, luigi, roy, falcon, marth, little mac, Ness, etc. There are also characters who have a far recovery but don't have a hitbox like Pit, Villager and rosalina. So saying smash 4 recoveries are godly is an overstatement.

Smash 4 Sheik has godly recovery

 

[Yikarur]

this is what I didn't like about this game from day 1.
Recoveries got buffed and ledge hogging was removed.
It would make more sense to keep the recoveries as they were and then remove edge hogging..
Recoveries in this game are far better than in Brawl overall.

 

[Ulevo]

this is what I didn't like about this game from day 1.
Recoveries got buffed and ledge hogging was removed.
It would make more sense to keep the recoveries as they were and then remove edge hogging..
Recoveries in this game are far better than in Brawl overall.

I disagree with this. The fact that characters could literally float back to the stage in Brawl while having access to an air dodge that had no penalty for using it like we do now made recoveries far safer.

 

[san.]

I disagree with this. The fact that characters could literally float back to the stage in Brawl while having access to an air dodge that had no penalty for using it like we do now made recoveries far safer.

4 frames startup, 10-20 frames vulnerability. It was stupid easy to punish one offstage in Brawl, unless I read this wrong.

 

[David Viran]

I never woulda seen that coming. Meanwhile Kirby's Bair doesn't kill Sheik offstage, when both characters are above 100%,

What really? Is there a sour spot? Smash god's kirby literally beat bengals zss because a on stage bair killed bengals when he was at like 90% and smash god was at 100% or more.

 

[TDK]

Smash 4 Sheik has godly recovery

Smash 4 Sheik has a godly everything.

omewhat Viable:

Why on earth are Jiggs, DeDeDe, Palutena, Doc, and Ganondorf in the same tier as Peach, Roy, and the Pits?

Viable:

What? As an Ike main, there is absolutely no way Ike should be on the same level as Shiek.

Here's my take on it: [note that these are aplhabetically ordered and without customs]



Extremely Viable:

Viable:

Potential to be viable or extremely viable:

Borderline Viable: :4

Potential to be Borderline Viable:

Semi-Viable/viable as secondary:

Potential to be semi-viable/viable as secondary:

Barely viable:

Not Viable:

Also, it just seems cruel to improve recoveries universally with ledge snapping and edge stealing, and then give Little mac a terrible recovery that doesn't auto-snap.

 

[Planty]

What? As an Ike main, there is absolutely no way Ike should be on the same level as Shiek.

Here's my take on it: [note that these are aplhabetically ordered and without customs]



Extremely Viable:

Viable:

Potential to be viable or extremely viable:

Borderline Viable: :4

Potential to be Borderline Viable:

Semi-Viable/viable as secondary:

Potential to be semi-viable/viable as secondary:

Barely viable:

Not Viable:

Also, it just seems cruel to improve recoveries universally with ledge snapping and edge stealing, and then give Little mac a terrible recovery that doesn't auto-snap.

I'm pretty sure that guys thing has to do with the video ESAM released a few days ago. In it he was saying that tiers don't matter. It doesn't matter if you're character is 40 or 38 on a tier list. However he made the distinction of 3 groups: The top characters (the ones you expect to win tournaments or place well with), the bottom characters (The ones that just plain suck), and everyone in between.