Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

Without customs
>

Wut.
Why?

 

[TDK]

Wut.
Why?

A bit more detail than that would help me answer those questions.

 

[Nu~]

A bit more detail than that would help me answer those questions.

It's just one question.

Why is Kirby more viable than those characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

You mean other than questioning why Kirby's above all those characters?
EDIT: 'd

 

[TDK]

It's just one question.

Why is Kirby more viable than those characters.

You mean other than questioning why Kirby's above all those characters?
EDIT: 'd

Ahh. It's a mixture of good aerials and edge guarding that put him up there, I think. In reality, it might be an oversight, but most of the characters you listed have huge trouble with Sheik or other extremely viable characters:



or lack results:



Or both.

It's always open to change and interpretation, none of this is set in stone, and especially with the balance patch on wednesday, I'll probably be updating this soon.

Speaking of the patch...

*crosses fingers for Peach buffs*

 

[Planty]

Speaking of the patch...

*crosses fingers for Peach buffs*

Please don't derail this thread into a balance suggestion thread. Whenever that happens it takes us about 5 days to recover and start being productive again.

 

[BSP]

Until I watched Esam's "Deal With It" video on Pac-Man, I had literally no idea you could stuff the hydrant by attacking it while it's flying at you. And it's really just a stroke of luck I saw that video at all.

What I'm getting at is that Pac-Man (and probably some other characters) just has so much unusual stuff involved with him that you really can't be too mad when people just don't know about the counterplay. I mean, good job and all helping spread the word, but I hope you realize that to anyone who doesn't play Pac-Man, a lot of his kit is really hard to figure out and adapt to.

5 minutes in training mode can go a long way. I still run into people that don't know his trampoline pulls you out of whatever you're doing. Given how large the "capable" / mid tier of this game is, it's a good idea to get some idea of what every character can do.

Speaking of trampoline, it's something ZeRo glossed over a bit in his Pac-Man video IMO. It's just as strong, if not stronger than hydrant for stalling depending on the MU. Hydrant tends to be better for weaker, slower characters. Trampoline is a lot better for containing faster characters. Focusing on one when the other is better gets Pac-Man destroyed >_>.

Another thing: I think most of us are coming to the consensus that Shulk is fairly lackluster in singles. When people like 9B, Ally, Gnes, and Trela all try and move on, that says something. That being said, I feel like the character has niche doubles potential. MArts are ok and situational in singles, but those situations present themselves a lot more in teams IMO. MShield tanking, MSpeed support, MJump and MSpeed followups, MBuster team combos, and throwing people into Shulk for MSmash finishers. I hope he doesn't get totally dropped before his team potential is delved into

 

[Asdioh]

What really? Is there a sour spot? Smash god's kirby literally beat bengals zss because a on stage bair killed bengals when he was at like 90% and smash god was at 100% or more.

He probably wasn't expecting it and... bad DI the move really isn't very impressive if you DI correctly.

 

[ARGHETH]

Ahh. It's a mixture of good aerials and edge guarding that put him up there, I think. In reality, it might be an oversight, but most of the characters you listed have huge trouble with Sheik or other extremely viable characters:



or lack results:



Or both.

It's always open to change and interpretation, none of this is set in stone, and especially with the balance patch on wednesday, I'll probably be updating this soon.

Speaking of the patch...

*crosses fingers for Peach buffs*

Toon Link and Marth have huge trouble with Sheik? Since when? And weren't people just talking about how Greninja is solo viable except for Sheik?
And you can't seriously convince me that Kirby has better results than Lucario or Roy.

 

[Wintermelon43]

.

Ahh. It's a mixture of good aerials and edge guarding that put him up there, I think. In reality, it might be an oversight, but most of the characters you listed have huge trouble with Sheik or other extremely viable characters:



or lack results:



Or both.

It's always open to change and interpretation, none of this is set in stone, and especially with the balance patch on wednesday, I'll probably be updating this soon.

Speaking of the patch...

*crosses fingers for Peach buffs*

Game & Watch got 13th at EVO, He's worse than Kirby due to theory.

 

[DunnoBro]

There are plenty of vulnerable / short recoveries in smash 4. Mario, Ganon, luigi, roy, falcon, marth, little mac, Ness, etc. There are also characters who have a far recovery but don't have a hitbox like Pit, Villager and rosalina. So saying smash 4 recoveries are godly is an overstatement.

What makes smash 4 recoveries "godly" isn't so much how good they inherently are just that how little it's worth actually challenging them with the tools most characters are allotted.

Characters like Olimar, Luigi, Diddy, Ness, Fox, etc who are considered to have among the more exploitable recoveries in the game, while most characters can certainly swat at them a good bit offstage, their ability to come back from so far demands the correct recovery read lots of times before they actually die and generally it's because they just straight die rather than got gimped.

And if you fail to take their stock, they cover your ledge get-up options which most characters actually tend to convert safely into damage/stocks more reliably than they do via edgeguard.

Note the best edgeguarders in the game don't go very deep. They just have low committal options to edgeguard that allow them to both pressure offstage and cover ledge get-ups. (Pika jolt, Sheik needles, sonic spring, Rosa jab/dair, Ness PKT2, Mario fireballs/fludd)

Falcon's the only one that has the risk/reward ratio to make going for deep edgeguards worth it that often since the times the edgeguards kill and the time ledge-coverage options kill don't overlap much.

 

[TDK]

Game & Watch got 13th at EVO, He's worse than Kirby due to theory.

Did the Game & Watch use any custom moves?

Toon Link and Marth have huge trouble with Sheik? Since when? And weren't people just talking about how Greninja is solo viable except for Sheik?
And you can't seriously convince me that Kirby has better results than Lucario or Roy.

As someone who uses Marth, I can attest to Sheik being trouble due to one of Marth's significant flaws: Moves with short-lasting hitboxes and high endlag. Wiffing an attack can get up to 60% on you. This is especially troublesome when it comes to killing.

 

[Vipermoon]

I disagree that Marth struggles especially hard against Sheik. He struggles but it's among his worst MUs, not his worst. There is no absolute worst among them.

He still has fast disjoints to contest Sheik (in short bursts admittedly) and kill power.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

5 minutes in training mode can go a long way. I still run into people that don't know his trampoline pulls you out of whatever you're doing. Given how large the "capable" / mid tier of this game is, it's a good idea to get some idea of what every character can do.

I know the basics of what Pac-Man can do, but I lack an in-house sparring partner/lab monkey/generally Smash-amenable friend so I'm pretty much limited to what can easily be discovered via throwing attacks at a training dummy and seeing what happens.

 

[DunnoBro]

Did the Game & Watch use any custom moves?

All reports stated he didn't. Also most GnWs attested that pretty much all the EVO sets for GnW were bad.

 

[Rikkhan]

So what do you think about meta knight I remember sometime ago people were hyping MK as the destroyer of sheiks and undoubtely a top 10 character, but so far his results have been pretty average, people are not playing MK and hype as moved to other characters like Ryu. Where do you think he is right now?

 

[DunnoBro]

So what do you think about meta knight I remember sometime ago people were hyping MK as the destroyer of sheiks and undoubtely a top 10 character, but so far his results have been pretty average, people are not playing MK and hype as moved to other characters like Ryu. Where do you think he is right now?

MK's are discovering sheik is one of his worst MUs.

People need to remember Mr. R and Void do not play the best character in the game. They play aggressive sheik, campy sheik is the best in the game.

 

[⑨ball]

Ahh. It's a mixture of good aerials and edge guarding that put him up there, I think. In reality, it might be an oversight, but most of the characters you listed have huge trouble with Sheik or other extremely viable characters.

?

Kirby's aerials are pretty average after all is said and done being about the same level as the characters Pacman9 listed. Kirby's edgeguarding isn't exactly fantastic either and actually gets edgeguarded harder than most characters due to upB not snapping the ledge.

I suppose judging on Sheik alone, in theory it could hold up, but results wise, Kirby does just as bad against Sheik as everyone else.

I haven't played with Kirby nearly as much as everyone else listed(bar Lucas who I know nearly nothing about), but I really can't see Kirby making it to a national or even regional top 8 before any of those characters with Falcon, Fox, RosaLuma, Ness, Sonic and Luigi running rampant. They seem like they'd give his lack of mobility and range a really hard way to go.

 

[Green L]

Players need to be more aggressive in edgeguarding. It sure is ironic that recoveries are supposedly too strong yet most players don't go offstage. There absolutely no reason falcon simply can't spike pit during his up b. I think an opponent will truly get back for free when it isn't challenged like when most players just stand on the ledge and just watch as ness slowly pk thunder back to the ledge. I'm surprised that no one has ever caped ness' recovery as mario or use a counter as marth. I could argue that waiting on the ledge is much less productive than going offstage because it's possible to misread how an opponent will move from the ledge. An opponent could jump, roll, use a getup attack etc. When a read fails from the ledge, the person waiting on the ledge not only let the opponent get back on stage for free but also didn't get a punish as well. I understand that teleport recoveries are virtually ungimpable though(Shiek, Zelda, Mewtwo etc) and some recoveries are too good (ZSS, Pikachu, Ike)

 

[DunnoBro]

=I'm surprised that no one has ever caped ness' recovery as mario or use a counter as marth.

Because it doesn't work. PKT essentially has two sets of very forgiving invincibility/general untouchability frames, on start-up and the ledge grab.

Counter/cape it on start-up he'll just go by or through you, around the middle and they'll just grab the ledge safely. The angles mario could maybe cape it, fireball is a more consistent and much safer challenge. And Marth can't really freely fall at that level with counter. (though it can happen)

Players need to be more aggressive in edgeguarding.

In general, no not really. It's safer, easier, and results in stocks more consistently to ledge guard/challenge ledge get-ups in most matchups. There is some advancement needed on edgeguarding in certain MUs or certain characters, but in general no. There's a reason good players don't tend to go deep in this game and it isn't because they are simply bad or scared.

Only if you got a edgeguard set-up by way of a low committal option sniping a jump or forcing a more vulnerable position is it then worth it to go deep usually. Or if it's the only possible way to make a comeback.

 

[Wintropy]

There absolutely no reason falcon simply can't spike pit during his up b. I think an opponent will truly get back for free when it isn't challenged like when most players just stand on the ledge and just watch as ness slowly pk thunder back to the ledge.

Except if he misses, he's now in disadvantage, which is where Falcon absolutely does not want to be.

It isn't a binary option. It's a matter of weighing up the potential benefits and detriments of the move.

An opponent could jump, roll, use a getup attack etc.

Getup options tend to be safer bets to read than edgeguards, since there's seldom the same kind of risk in doing so. You don't have the same chance of being put in a very compromising disadvantage if you misread a getup option.

 

[Antonykun]

MK's are discovering sheik is one of his worst MUs.

People need to remember Mr. R and Void do not play the best character in the game. They play aggressive sheik, campy sheik is the best in the game.

"discovering"?
literally every pre Leo MK main has been saying how much he gets bodied by her

also I'm not one hundred percent sure if "campy" sheik is the best sheik, though that might just be a terminology thing as i think a defensive sheik who plays it cool while maximizing that punish is the best and that might just be what a "campy" sheik is

 

[meleebrawler]

Greninja really relies on his shurikens to compensate for his overall poor frame data, however Sheik's needles just say no to it. Her mobility is almost as good as ours, her recovery is really good as well and her frame data is much better than ours.

Greninja has a strong mid-range game, but Sheik just ignores it and goes for the CQC where we lose, or she just goes for long-range where we also lose.

Sheik's low damage output and killing power means that Greninja can make a comeback if he gets a good read and does his combos/strings and gets a lot of damage from it but it's not nearly enough to make this MU good for us.

Characters that are good against Greninja tend to be the ones who are fast, ignore shurikens and have better frame data, which is why we also lose to Fox and Sonic, though they're much more bearable than Sheik because they have more exploitable weaknesses (Fox's recovery and Sonic's struggle to land are much easier to capitalize on).

Uncannily, I could replace every instance of Greninja in this post with Mewtwo and it would be almost as accurate.

Seriously, everyone thinks Mewtwo has really bad top tier matchups and while they are tricky they're actually quite manageable if he's on point with his defensive options. Problem is most people tend to only look at what happens when he gets hit. The only top tier Mewtwo really can't do much about his Sheik whose fair just cr**s all over Mewtwo's midrange spacing and needles say no to shadow ball charging.

 

[Nobie]

I think Mewtwo might have an easier time "caping" PK Thunder just because the reflect window is so forgiving.

 

[DunnoBro]

"discovering"?
literally every pre Leo MK main has been saying how much he gets bodied by her

I guess I should've said "people" instead of MKs since they actually know the characters weaknesses already.

also I'm not one hundred percent sure if "campy" sheik is the best sheik, though that might just be a terminology thing as i think a defensive sheik who plays it cool while maximizing that punish is the best and that might just be what a "campy" sheik is

I just meant that Mr. R, Vinnie, and Void take many many more risks than ZeRo does. There are certainly MUs aggressive/punish heavy sheik is the optimal choice. (I think the falcon, rosalina, and and fox mus are like that)

Like, just look at how each player starts the match. ZeRo, at minimum almost always begins with needle charge animation and cancels it if not continues charging. The others tend to mix it up with that or actual approaches/positional pressure.

Void tends to charge needles a lot but this is likely due to his penchant for stringing them into slick combos. When he has a full charge at around mid-percents, he has the tendency to go pretty ham. (I think he overvalues his signature combos, personally. As slick as they are)

 

[Green L]

Being in a disadvantage because of a missed edgeguard isn't exclusive in smash 4. That happens in all smash games. Taking stocks can happen too via edgeguarding. There's the possibility of missing a read on a getup option and getting punished for doing so.

 

[Wintropy]

Being in a disadvantage because of a missed edgeguard isn't exclusive in smash 4. That happens in all smash games. Taking stocks can happen too via edgeguarding. There's the possibility of missing a read on a getup option and getting punished for doing so.

I didn't say it's exclusive to Smash 4. It doesn't change the fact that it's a distinct possibility, especially considering ledge-trumping creates a new dynamic in the edgeguarding context.

You said there's nothing stopping characters from edgeguarding; I explained that, while this is true in theory, it's more complex than it being a binary option. Missing the edgeguard can have a psychological effect as well as a mechanical effect.

I did say that you can misread the opponent's getup option and get punished for it. My thesis isn't that that's impossible, but rather that, if it's the case that your character doesn't deal well with off-stage pressure and the opponent does not have good options to punish a missed read and put you into severe disadvantage, it may be more beneficial to just stay on-stage and try for the read.

Stage control is, in itself, important to consider. I don't think you can begrudge players for trying to maintain control of the stage if the punishment for missing the edgeguard isn't so severe as the punishment for dropping stage control - tiny complexities!

 

[Hippieslayer]

All reports stated he didn't. Also most GnWs attested that pretty much all the EVO sets for GnW were bad.

I very much doubt there wasn't a set wastly superior to his default mode, GnW's has great friggin customs, its gotta be almost impossible to make 10 unique sets that are worse than default for him.

 

[FallofBrawl]

So what do you think about meta knight I remember sometime ago people were hyping MK as the destroyer of sheiks and undoubtely a top 10 character, but so far his results have been pretty average, people are not playing MK and hype as moved to other characters like Ryu. Where do you think he is right now?

Well Tyrant just beat Voids Sheik at SSS if that means anything...
EDIT: Game count is 6-1 Tyrant, wow.
I believe MK has the MU advantage over an aggressive Sheik.

 

[TDK]

I'm pretty sure that guys thing has to do with the video ESAM released a few days ago. In it he was saying that tiers don't matter. It doesn't matter if you're character is 40 or 38 on a tier list. However he made the distinction of 3 groups: The top characters (the ones you expect to win tournaments or place well with), the bottom characters (The ones that just plain suck), and everyone in between.

I feel like "everyone in between" needs more distinction. Peach and Charizard, for instance, are NOT on the same level.

 

[Shaya]

Players need to be more aggressive in edgeguarding. It sure is ironic that recoveries are supposedly too strong yet most players don't go offstage. There absolutely no reason falcon simply can't spike pit during his up b. I think an opponent will truly get back for free when it isn't challenged like when most players just stand on the ledge and just watch as ness slowly pk thunder back to the ledge. I'm surprised that no one has ever caped ness' recovery as mario or use a counter as marth. I could argue that waiting on the ledge is much less productive than going offstage because it's possible to misread how an opponent will move from the ledge. An opponent could jump, roll, use a getup attack etc. When a read fails from the ledge, the person waiting on the ledge not only let the opponent get back on stage for free but also didn't get a punish as well. I understand that teleport recoveries are virtually ungimpable though(Shiek, Zelda, Mewtwo etc) and some recoveries are too good (ZSS, Pikachu, Ike)

You made the same assertion when you first joined the site/thread with a similar thought process, and the replies you have received are similar as well: The RISK for the REWARD just isn't there. It requires specific positioning and specific scenarios for one to be able to go off stage to harass and not be putting yourself in danger of losing your stock. This is different to both melee and brawl because the attacker would always have the ability to grab the ledge first and then force the opponent to stall their recovery for half a second in brawl and for like 1.5 seconds (i.e. you're dead) in melee from roll get up animations.

Better recoveries helps the defender A LOT more than the attacker. It is not ironic in the SLIGHTEST (deductively or logically), better recoveries and free ledge snaps HURT the attacker trying to go off stage because for those characters to cover the areas in which a defender can safely recover FAST ENOUGH requires fast falling to get there, the use of an aerial which in general if they have a long duration have high end lag = attacker dies trying to hit a defender recovering optimally. Oh and for a defender, they can hold onto their mid air jump without much risk until they reach the "definite" safe area for their recoveries while the attacker usually has to forego a mid air jump to cover the opponent, thus feasibly forfeiting their ability to recover (as jumpless recovering characters are in a more precarious a situation) if the defender counter attacks. The attacker returning to the stage doesn't get the same "strong recovery" than the defender after you commit.

Does this make sense? If there's something you misunderstand here ask away.
I don't want to read the same "ironic" thing from you again without you realising the main deterrents to off stage harassment.

 

[DunnoBro]

I very much doubt there wasn't a set wastly superior to his default mode, GnW's has great friggin customs, its gotta be almost impossible to make 10 unique sets that are worse than default for him.

According to GIMR, the fact all the sets had chain judge as they thought it was directly superior really hurt the character and detracted from the use of the other customs. While potentially superior, it wouldn't be much, and not worth practicing for one tournament (even if customs stayed around, the sets would've been changed definitely)

GIMR and Boss even were actually really upset. Boss practiced custom GnW and thought it was obvious what his best sets were.

 

[teddystalin]

I feel like "everyone in between" needs more distinction. Peach and Charizard, for instance, are NOT on the same level.

ESAM's three groups were actually "viable," "sorta viable," and "not viable." Going off that, there's a clear distinction between the two. I like the grouping - it cuts our arguments down to where each group starts and ends instead of each individual placing, which is something we can do more easily at this point in the game's lifespan.

Edit: Which I suppose you ended up doing with your tier list, just subdivided to the extreme.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Doc mario definitely is sorta viable IMO. He has a answer for everything, but nothing he has is super abusable.

 

[san.]

I think players need to get better at recognizing when the opponents "screwed up" their recovery path offstage a little more. It's apparent that some players are getting back for free with suboptimal recovery choices.

 

[Coffee™]

Extremely Viable:

Viable:

Potential to be viable or extremely viable:

Borderline Viable: :4

Potential to be Borderline Viable:

Semi-Viable/viable as secondary:

Potential to be semi-viable/viable as secondary:

Barely viable:

Not Viable:

Define "viable"...

That term gets thrown around a lot but every one seems to have quite a different definition.

 

[thehard]

I caught Top 3 of SSS, was fun. Forgot how good Tyrant was, seems like all his matches get played offstream in most majors. And VoiD is like the Sheik version of Ally, doing things that "shouldn't" work but do anyway. Can someone explain Sheik's RAR up-air to me? D1 and Bam briefly mentioned something about it on commentary but I didn't catch the explanation.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I see a lot of people put Mii gunner in the bottom 5 / 10 and I'm confused as to why this is. Aside from killing, what flaws does he have that make him so much worse than the rest of the cast?

 

[teddystalin]

I see a lot of people put Mii gunner in the bottom 5 / 10 and I'm confused as to why this is. Aside from killing, what flaws does he have that make him so much worse than the rest of the cast?

It's because it's easy to fill out your bottom 10 with characters no one knows enough about to challenge you on.

 

[Shaya]

I think players need to get better at recognizing when the opponents "screwed up" their recovery path offstage a little more. It's apparent that some players are getting back for free with suboptimal recovery choices.

Well I don't think my ability to edge guard is that much weaker between games; many of my stocks playing Marth, ZSS or Falco involve off stage finishers. It's just, unless I've snatched their jump, or they have to jump somewhere 'early' to survive (not much to do with the attacker as you can't bait jumps like you could in Brawl/Melee), the weave safely into jump up b or jump air dodge up-b is nearly insurmountable.
The reason I feel those two characters in particular can do it is because they're able to get back to the ledge faster than just about everyone else after making a commitment; as long as they hold onto their jumps they can go almost any distance down or away and get back, still faster than what the recovering opponent can, most of the time.

Just like the other games, people poorly recovering deserve to get smacked. It would be silly to think we're even remotely close to being optimal with what we do off stage at this early point of the game.
But I vehemently deny it's "ironic" we're not seeing more attempts when recoveries have been generally buffed. It's exactly the reason why we're not seeing as many attempts.

Free ledge grabs, no cool down or start up air dodges, larger ledge grab areas, and in general larger hitboxes on recoveries to cover you = it's all risk and hard reads for the attacker.