Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

There absolutely no reason falcon simply can't spike pit during his up b.

Why do people think this? At all? Pit would legitimately be a **** character if his recovery was anything less then great. Yeah, some characters can gimp him easily... Like, one I know for sure and a handful of theoretical ones, but only extremely unconventional characters like DDD.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why do people think this? At all?

For the same reason that a lot of character boards claim that all you have to do is throw Ness/Doc/Little Mac off the stage to win: people just over-simplifying the match up. It's like the people who claim that all Sheik has to do is fair and throw needles to win or that you're SOL if Luigi gets a single grab in.

 

[LancerStaff]

For the same reason that a lot of character boards claim that all you have to do is throw Ness/Doc/Little Mac off the stage to win: people just over-simplifying the match up. It's like the people who claim that all Sheik has to do is fair and throw needles to win or that you're SOL if Luigi gets a single grab in.

Not to sound rude, but this isn't remotely the same thing. Ness/Doc/Mac are weak offstage. Luigi's grab game is absurd. Pit's recovery isn't gimpable. It's like when people call Roy a good rushdown character... It couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

[HeavyLobster]

There absolutely no reason falcon simply can't spike pit during his up b. )

Why is Pit just predictably Up-Bing to the ledge when you can usually just Side-B and armor through edgeguards? It's not hard to gimp a Pit player who just Up-Bs straight to the ledge every time but Pit rarely needs to commit to that. Good Pits don't let themselves get gimped so easily and mix things up more.

 

[Conda]

Not to mention not all edgeguarding attempts are killing ones, so if Pit ever survives your edgeguard he can almost always still recover. It's why people don't bother edgeguarding characters like Villager, Sheik, and so forth. Meanwhile some characters are more worthwhile to edgeguard even if your attack doesn't kill, such as Marth, Mario, Roy, Bowser Jr, & Falcon.

 

[Antonykun]

Not to mention not all edgeguarding attempts are killing ones, so if Pit ever survives your edgeguard he can almost always still recover. It's why people don't bother edgeguarding characters like Villager, Sheik, and so forth. Meanwhile some characters are more worthwhile to edgeguard even if your attack doesn't kill, such as Marth, Mario, Roy, Bowser Jr, & Falcon.

just saying in my experience of the MK vs Villager MU from both sides, Villager is practically dead off stage if the MK is good at his edgeguarding + it's offline and I'm sure characters like sheik or Peach can do the same. It's pretty much the biggest reason why i believe Villager has nowhere near the best recovery in smash 4

 

[TDK]

no

My point is, no matter how talented the Zelda player is, Zelda has a massive hole in her design. Her character has powerful finishers [more so than Sheik] but her character still plays as though she can switch into Sheik and take advantage of her superior damage racking, approach and combos, but since she cannot switch into Sheik, she is a character with a moveset full of finishers that cannot approach effectively or combo.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't understand why we aren't hitting Villager during his recovery. It is way too easy even against the best villagers or maybe it's just a Marth thing. Even if he survives the free damage adds up.

I can even sometimes get just the balloons (but then he survives anyway because the game developers decided to give him a quick vertical boost right before he enters the freefall.

Edit: and he shouldn't be able to continue lifting when you get one of the balloons yet he does

 

[|RK|]

That could describe a lot of characters though. Any character can win almost any matchup if you genuinely outplay your opponent. Tiers almost become irrelevant if there's a significant difference in skill levels. Yeah, the matchups can be winnable but how much effort do you have to pour in as opposed to your opponent? That's where the difference lies. Sheik can still lose to someone like Zelda but that Zelda either needs to be scary good or that Sheik needs to be hilariously bad.

Actually, I know Zelda is bad and all, but what is the Zelda/Sheik matchup actually like?

(Ooh, and for that matter the Samus/ZSS matchup!)

 

[LordShade67]

The following is the opinion of a scrub. Reader discretion is advised.

So, Mewtwo. I think with his design, Sakurai attempted him to be a parallel to Akuma(Think about it. Mewtwo's light weight is a parallel to Akuma's low health). The problem is Sakurai only got the high damage(?) part right. Everything else? Flunked. Akuma's design works because he actually has the frame data and character properties to make his design work(Good range on normals, one of, if not the fastest overall walk speed). Mewtwo? Well...

That, and frame data are his main problems ATM. Let's face it. He's not getting a weight buff. No character so far has had their base properties changed via patch currently.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hmm, Fox semi-viable? I could believe it. He has a fantastic matchup spread, including good mus vs ZSS and Sonic (you may disagree here, I believe it's 55:45 in favor of Fox for both though). But the Rosa mu is bad, like really bad for him.

Fox is considered top tier - a potential top 5 even - by a lot of people in this thread. Why is that? Probably due to his speed, his ability to effectively limit the options of most opponents who even start getting juggled by him, and his incredible burst mobility that lets him take a stock or heavily punish. In fact, Fox's punish game is close to unrivaled: he's one of the few characters who effectively can punish Pikachu's Quick Attack out of shield, just to give an idea. Now, I'm going to be Dr. Obvious here and mention that he has an abusable recovery and getting him offstage can really screw him, most notably by almost everyone because of the startup on his recovery and how linearly it travels. You can get a bit more creative with it though, there are several angles you can work with Fire Fox (which imo, more Foxes need to start getting creative with instead of going straight for Illusion), but he essentially has a big "hit me" sign on his back.

I believe that Fox only has one matchup which he absolutely loses, and I mean it is his absolute worst in the game (6:4 or worse), and that is Rosalina and Luma.
vs
I know how to play the mu, and I know what some of you might be thinking of telling me: just get rid of Luma. Easy to say, but that's hard to do when, unlike other fast characters in this game like Falcon, MK or Sonic, Fox has a TON more trouble getting rid of Luma because he lacks moves that are both quick and powerful enough to send Luma flying away from him. The only moves that knock Luma away are smashes, which are unsafe on block, and F-throws hitbox, which more often than not will miss since Luma needs to be in a very specific position behind grabbed Rosa to get hit by it. The best thing to get rid of her is to keep separating Rosa and beating up Luma until she disappears, rush down Rosa and do as much damage as possible, then rinse and repeat once Luma re-appears. It's very, very excruciating and leads to a very long game. Getting in Rosalinas bubble is hard for Fox, not to mention getting past the combined hitboxes of the duo is excruciating for Fox - Luma alone shuts down our ground approaches almost completely, and it's very risky to try jumping in Rosa's space. Fox needs to be very creative and near perfect to bait and punish both of them properly. Another factor that Rosalina abuses is her KO power ending Fox very early, especially considering we fall like bricks while being quite light. Probably our only advantage is how early she dies, but her being light also lets her escape setups into U-air or B-air.

The matchup is perhaps at best 6:4 for Fox, imo it feels 65:35 in Rosa's, which is as bad as you can get for a top tier. It's horrible really, I think that Fox is a great character regardless, but I don't know about him being a successful solo main as more Rosas wise up on the MU - or maybe as more Foxes wise up on it?

 

[LancerStaff]

The following is the opinion of a scrub. Reader discretion is advised.

So, Mewtwo. I think with his design, Sakurai attempted him to be a parallel to Akuma(Think about it. Mewtwo's light weight is a parallel to Akuma's low health). The problem is Sakurai only got the high damage(?) part right. Everything else? Flunked. Akuma's design works because he actually has the frame data and character properties to make his design work(Good range on normals, one of, if not the fastest overall walk speed). Mewtwo? Well...

That, and frame data are his main problems ATM. Let's face it. He's not getting a weight buff. No character so far has had their base properties changed via patch currently.

Mewtwo, and Samus, and WFT, and Robin, and Lucario somewhat, are Charge Shot characters. They live and die by these moves. Charge shots are gigantic boons in FFAs, so naturally they need drawbacks for balance. Which, one way or another, means taking away CQC abilities. Lucario is weird but has aura though... Actually, how stupid his aura is makes sense in a FFA environment.

Anyway, until you remove the Charge Shot, these characters will be severely held back by the moves. This is why Phantoms aren't storable, as Zelda would have to be even worse in 1v1s to compensate.

 

[PUK]

Mewtwo, and Samus, and WFT, and Robin, and Lucario somewhat, are Charge Shot characters. They live and die by these moves. Charge shots are gigantic boons in FFAs, so naturally they need drawbacks for balance. Which, one way or another, means taking away CQC abilities. Lucario is weird but has aura though... Actually, how stupid his aura is makes sense in a FFA environment.

Anyway, until you remove the Charge Shot, these characters will be severely held back by the moves. This is why Phantoms aren't storable, as Zelda would have to be even worse in 1v1s to compensate.

I think this is an extrapolation
First, sakurai never said FFA is as important as 1v1 for balance
Second, these charge moves are not that powerful, even in ffa, because ffa are played in various stage, including stage where it doesn't work at all
Third, sheik, falcon, luigi etc... are godly in free for all. FFA should have the exact same tier list, with only maybe rosalina losing viability. Ganondorf in ffa is not good: his high start up mean that he will often be hit while trying to defend himself, and more people mean more projectile.
And Sheik is the best character of all smash with items. A bomb will cancel her only flaw.

 

[bc1910]

No character so far has had their base properties changed via patch currently.

 

[ARGHETH]

Mewtwo, and Samus, and WFT, and Robin, and Lucario somewhat, are Charge Shot characters. They live and die by these moves. Charge shots are gigantic boons in FFAs, so naturally they need drawbacks for balance. Which, one way or another, means taking away CQC abilities. Lucario is weird but has aura though... Actually, how stupid his aura is makes sense in a FFA environment.

Anyway, until you remove the Charge Shot, these characters will be severely held back by the moves. This is why Phantoms aren't storable, as Zelda would have to be even worse in 1v1s to compensate.

Robin...isn't really based around Thunder (and from what I know of WFT, neither is she). Robin's only Thunder stage that's significantly better in FFA is Thoron, really. Replace the move with something else (Elthunder/Arcthunder only or something), and he wouldn't be a terrible character, probably just where he was before the last patch.

 

[LightLV]

That could describe a lot of characters though. Any character can win almost any matchup if you genuinely outplay your opponent. Tiers almost become irrelevant if there's a significant difference in skill levels.

....nnnnnnaaahhhhhh, i don't think they do. I really don't think they do. Zelda could have a 9-1 matchup with Shiek. That most certainly aint the case, but even if it were, somehow, someway? What happens when someone just, idk, picks literally anyone else?

I mean, people say this alot, but it just isn't true. Competitively? What is the chance you're going to play someone with a skill deficit so severe that they're going to lose 2 sets to a weak character? What kind of magical matchup wisdom is going to make a bad character not lack tools? Okay, technically yes, significant skill difference can invalidate problems, but if we're talking competitively here, i assume we don't mean you're bringing your zelda up against my little sister.


Not that I think Zelda is THAT bad, because she most certainly isn't. But no amount of "outplaying" is going to stop even an AVERAGELY COMPETENT player from realizing that, "hey, wait a second...she literally can't do ANYTHING to me without becoming laughably unsafe, and her projectiles are all terrible! Why am i losing again?"

 

[TDK]

....nnnnnnaaahhhhhh, i don't think they do. I really don't think they do. Zelda could have a 9-1 matchup with Shiek. That most certainly aint the case, but even if it were, somehow, someway? What happens when someone just, idk, picks literally anyone else?

I mean, people say this alot, but it just isn't true. Competitively? What is the chance you're going to play someone with a skill deficit so severe that they're going to lose 2 sets to a weak character? What kind of magical matchup wisdom is going to make a bad character not lack tools? Okay, technically yes, significant skill difference can invalidate problems, but if we're talking competitively here, i assume we don't mean you're bringing your zelda up against my little sister.


Not that I think Zelda is THAT bad, because she most certainly isn't. But no amount of "outplaying" is going to stop even an AVERAGELY COMPETENT player from realizing that, "hey, wait a second...she literally can't do ANYTHING to me without becoming laughably unsafe, and her projectiles are all terrible! Why am i losing again?"

I know someone said this before I did, but I can't find it....

"if a tree falls down in the forest and nobody is around to play Sheik, then Sheik is still the best character in the game."

 

[LancerStaff]

I think this is an extrapolation
First, sakurai never said FFA is as important as 1v1 for balance
Second, these charge moves are not that powerful, even in ffa, because ffa are played in various stage, including stage where it doesn't work a

If FFAs weren't so important, why are characters like Shiek and Rosalina so strong while Bowser and DDD are so weak? If FFAs weren't taking a priority, then how do you explain the Gordo nerf and the Mac nerfs?

And yes, Charge Shot moves work quite well in FFAs. Especially on FD where the game appears to be balanced around. Other stages don't appear to be considered much since for Fun has items on.

Robin...isn't really based around Thunder (and from what I know of WFT, neither is she). Robin's only Thunder stage that's significantly better in FFA is Thoron, really. Replace the move with something else (Elthunder/Arcthunder only or something), and he wouldn't be a terrible character, probably just where he was before the last patch.

Thoron isn't exactly a KO move, but it tears across the stage, through opponents, and does significant damage. Takes a bit of a backseat to the durability but not as much as Lucario. From what I've seen Robin would be crippled in FFAs if not for Thoron.

Sun Salutation is more about the healing and how easy they are to charge, relatively speaking.

 

[Crudele]

Actually, I know Zelda is bad and all, but what is the Zelda/Sheik matchup actually like?

(Ooh, and for that matter the Samus/ZSS matchup!)

I think the zelda boards have it at like 35:65. It's pretty rough. But when you do beat sheik with zelda, it's the most justified victory in the game. Like a bottom tier character over-coming her s-tier alter ego.

 

[LordShade67]

Well, I was referring to things like walking/running speeds, weight, and the like. But, good to know.

 

[monzer]

(Ooh, and for that matter the Samus/ZSS matchup!)

These are just my thoughts on the matchup, don't take it as fact. Especially since this matchup doesn't happen in tournaments often.

Neither of their grabs are safe in neutral, and both characters have decent OOS options, so shielding a lot may be a good option in theory for both ZSS and Samus, although shielding can still be punished. The main difference is that Samus has a decent punish game, but ZSS has an amazing punish game. So while they both will have to put in the same amount of effort, ZSS will get much more reward from grabs(ZSS may even need less effort to get a grab in). Also, while Screw Attack OOS is good, ZSS's up-b is even better.

Overall, ZSS wins the matchup just like any top tier would beat a bottom tier. I would say 60:40 in Zero Suit's favor.

 

[Smog Frog]

having a charge shot is no excuse to be ****ty in 1v1. why does cqc have to suffer from having a charge shot? is a perfect example of alternative ways you can balance charge shot characters(eg: ****ty physics). he's bad because he's terribly undertuned.

 

[TDK]

Aren't Sheik's needles technically a "Charge Shot"? They function the same as Charge Shot/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball/Thoron in terms of charging and storing...

 

[Nobie]

The following is the opinion of a scrub. Reader discretion is advised.

So, Mewtwo. I think with his design, Sakurai attempted him to be a parallel to Akuma(Think about it. Mewtwo's light weight is a parallel to Akuma's low health). The problem is Sakurai only got the high damage(?) part right. Everything else? Flunked. Akuma's design works because he actually has the frame data and character properties to make his design work(Good range on normals, one of, if not the fastest overall walk speed). Mewtwo? Well...

That, and frame data are his main problems ATM. Let's face it. He's not getting a weight buff. No character so far has had their base properties changed via patch currently.

Mewtwo's range and frame data aren't that bad. Frame 6 jab is a bit on the slow side, but it has trample properties and leads into all sorts of shenanigans. Frame 6 down tilt is good too, as everyone knows, though people tend to exaggerate Mewtwo's deficiencies by saying it's his only good normal. Pivot f-tilt is really, really good and lets him outspace a lot of opponents on the ground. The issue with Up-tilt not hitting both sides isn't that big of a deal. A lot of up-tilts don't and people are just thrown off by the animation. In fact, Mewtwo's up-tilt DOES hit behind him, but only up-close.

As a side note, I've been testing out Mewtwo vs. Luma (and will probably post to the Mewtwo boards once I'm done) but up-tilt vs. Luma is the weirdest set of interactions around.

Close up-tilt (sweet spot): Never launches Luma
Far up-tilt (sour spot): Launches Luma after significant damage
Up-tilt rear hitbox: Launches Luma at 0%

???????? What is going on

Forward Smash has issues with hitting up close and it would be cool if that didn't happen, but Down Smash covers the area right in front of him. In terms of movement, Mewtwo's fairly slow walk speed does hurt him, but he has decent run speed, and great air speed, and his poor aerial acceleration is balanced out by teleport and confusion to quickly change his direction. He also has arguably the best air dodge in the game, recovering more quickly than anyone's and turning his Frame 5 fair and Frame 7 nair into quicker moves than they should be.

In fact, there's a lot about Mewtwo that I think is arranged so that he doesn't become too overwhelming in neutral, and perhaps they overcompensated for this. Like, Mewtwo has good top air speed (equal to Mario/Sonic) but poor aerial acceleration, but imagine if his air acceleration was as good as Mario's AND you had Confusion AND you had Teleport AND that amazing air dodge. This isn't even mentioning combining Disable with quick momentum shifts.

I think Mewtwo's weakness can just be summed up as him being a character whose reward seems to not be worth his risk over the long term of a match because of just how much he gets punished for making mistakes. I know that describes a lot of characters at a basic level, but it's different with Mewtwo because he has all of these great tools that when used in conjunction make for a formidable character provided that you're constantly, constantly putting forth thoughtful gambles (which is to say you're not relying on luck but rather understanding your opponent and taking thought-out risks), but if that gamble doesn't turn out in your favor you're kind of boned.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Which is exactly the point. Any matchup is technically winnable under the right conditions so it's kind of a moot point. With Doc, if any matchup is theoretically winnable but he doesn't have the results to back him up, it's a dubious statement because it shows that either 1. most Doc players aren't very good or 2. Doc has flaws that keeps him from winning. I mention this because I remember some people used to say this about Shiek and Sonic in Brawl and how, from a theoretical standpoint, the characters didn't have any glaringly bad matchups and yet the characters stayed low-middle tier almost the entire duration of the game's main lifespan. Both characters had some really impressive tricks they could pull off and yet they never really went anywhere. That's kind of where Doc is at right now.

It could be that we don't have a lot of players. And this leads to smaller skill density. if you took a trip into out boards, you'll see it's mostly "is doc viable?" Threads everywhere.

 

[monzer]

I think Mewtwo's weakness can just be summed up as him being a character whose reward seems to not be worth his risk.

High risk- High reward characters have it hard the meta game. The only ones who are good seek to be Falcon and to an extent Lucario and DK.

It could be that we don't have a lot of players. And this leads to smaller skill density. if you took a trip into out boards, you'll see it's mostly "is doc viable?" Threads everywhere.

The reason why Doc isn't used is the same reason why Lucina, Lukas, and Falco aren't being used much, they are just outclassed by the character they are a clone off. In the case of Lukas and Dr. Mario, it seems like they are almost halfway decent, but everyone just picks Ness/Mario over them. Lucina and Falco seem to just be bad though.

 

[LightLV]

Mewtwo, and Samus, and WFT, and Robin, and Lucario somewhat, are Charge Shot characters. They live and die by these moves. Charge shots are gigantic boons in FFAs, so naturally they need drawbacks for balance. Which, one way or another, means taking away CQC abilities. Lucario is weird but has aura though... Actually, how stupid his aura is makes sense in a FFA environment.

Anyway, until you remove the Charge Shot, these characters will be severely held back by the moves. This is why Phantoms aren't storable, as Zelda would have to be even worse in 1v1s to compensate.

This seems to be the leading defense (explanation?) for why these characters are so weak. But the problem with this idea is that it's still dreadful design even if that were the case. There are worse moves to be caught with in FFA than Samus' whack charge shot, it really isn't that strong, lets be completely honest here.

I mean...it's a charge shot. It would be understandable if Samus could reliably combo into the attack, but she can't. Or if it killed reliably sometime before 130%, but it doesn't. DK has no lack of power for being able to store his punch, Shiek loses nothing from holding needles, Mario loses nothing from charging Fludd, and in most cases (barring shiek), these moves are essentially worthless UNLESS they're fully charged. Nor do Rob, Wario, or Robin, and those are both killmoves. And Villager/G&W lose nothing from being able to store ridiculous amounts of MULTIPLIED killpower behind a 4 frame activation and/or down throw true combo. Where is Pac Man's lack of 1v1 utiltiy with his charge attack removed?


Samus is just badly designed, whether we're talking 1v1, FFA or 8-player smash.

And don't even get me started on Zelda. She's only a bad character because she's designed poorly, plain and simple. They removed Shiek from her and gave her no compensation for it. You have to be sleeping to even be hit by Dins Fire, let alone be killed by it because its sourspot is absolutely massive. Phantom? What is it even for? Who's going to be hit by that thing? It's the most telegraphed attack in the game, it's incredibly slow, and having it on the field gives Zelda no tactical advantage whatsoever because she is NO threat to you behind it.

High risk- High reward characters have it hard the meta game. The only ones who are good seek to be Falcon and to an extent Lucario and DK.



The reason why Doc isn't used is the same reason why Lucina, Lukas, and Falco aren't being used much, they are just outclassed by the character they are a clone off. In the case of Lukas and Dr. Mario, it seems like they are almost halfway decent, but everyone just picks Ness/Mario over them. Lucina and Falco seem to just be bad though.

Lucario can be decent...sometimes, but generally speaking he is a pretty worthless character unless you're at 120%, at which point he begins to become quite terrifying.

I'd hardly call Falco a clone of Fox in this game, but Falco is one projectile buff away from being a pretty decent character. That laser is just, like, really bad though. Another case of nerfing an integral move and compensating in all the wrong ways.

Lucina is only "bad" if you think Marth is bad, and that goes the same with Dr. Mario....sort of. Lucina being Fsmash the character really isn't that bad of an affliction (considering her Fsmash is damn good) when Marth by comparison is....well, Tippered-Fsmash the Character.

Unfortunately, Dr.Mario doesn't share the same mechanical similarities that Marth/Lucina do, since his mobility and recovery are notably worse than Mario's, and so he'll actually suffer in ways that his clone doesn't. Lucina does not have that issue. Whereas she's (slightly) less safe on block, i'll take her Uptilt over Marth's occasional critical strike when your bad opponent doesn't respect the fact Fsmash Tipper will kill you at 60%. Then again, "kill at 60%". sooooo...


But is Doc VIABLE? Unless people can flowchart ways to gimp him, i'd say honestly say he is, off the basic principle that, well, he's Mario....with an even dumber UpSmash and some scary strength. Unless the Doc boards are having trouble being gimped, I don't think he's that far away from Mario. What he lacks in whatever mobility he loses, he still gains in having by default better move properties than more than half the cast.

 

[Ffamran]

The reason why Doc isn't used is the same reason why Lucina, Lukas, and Falco aren't being used much, they are just outclassed by the character they are a clone off. In the case of Lukas and Dr. Mario, it seems like they are almost halfway decent, but everyone just picks Ness/Mario over them. Lucina and Falco seem to just be bad though.

Yes, because Falco plays so similarly to Fox or how Ganondorf's game plan is word by word the same as Captain Falcon or how Shulk is just an inconsistent version of Ike. By that logic, Jigglypuff is bad because she's outclassed by Kirby who she was a clone of in 64 and still retains similar things to Kirby such as her Side and Down Smash and the very concept of multi-jumps. That logic would also be contradicted by Roy who is a clone of Marth, but is hyped up so badly he's considered in the leagues of Captain Falcon, Ryu, and Mario.

The only bad clone in this game is Lucina who by design is held back unlike Roy, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Wolf, Falco, Ganondorf, and all other derived, model-swap, clone, semi-clone, what have you characters. She is by design not allowed to evolve beyond "tipper-less Marth". You want bad game design, there you go. That's the worst thing I have ever seen. Joke characters like 64 Jigglypuff and Melee Pichu are better game design than a character irrationally held back like Lucina. A palette swap with a slightly different pitched voice and only 3 slightly different moves like Dark Pit is better game design than Lucina. Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight are better game design than Lucina. Flappy Bird and Cookie Clicker are better game design than Lucina. Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. Lucina is better game design than Smash 4 Lucina.

 

[LancerStaff]

having a charge shot is no excuse to be ****ty in 1v1. why does cqc have to suffer from having a charge shot? is a perfect example of alternative ways you can balance charge shot characters(eg: ****ty physics). he's bad because he's terribly undertuned.

Don't misunderstand, they're not made bad for 1v1s to be bad for 1v1s, it's a side-effect for how they're balanced for FFAs. Mewtwo isn't undertuned for FFAs, so yeah.

Aren't Sheik's needles technically a "Charge Shot"? They function the same as Charge Shot/Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball/Thoron in terms of charging and storing...

But they don't KO, don't do a ton of damage, and don't have any major extra effectss as far as FFAs are concerned. To be a proper Charge Shot, there needs to be some power behind it.

This seems to be the leading defense (explanation?) for why these characters are so weak. But the problem with this idea is that it's still dreadful design even if that were the case. There are worse moves to be caught with in FFA than Samus' whack charge shot, it really isn't that strong, lets be completely honest here.

I mean...it's a charge shot. It would be understandable if Samus could reliably combo into the attack, but she can't. Or if it killed reliably sometime before 130%, but it doesn't. DK has no lack of power for being able to store his punch, Shiek loses nothing from holding needles, Mario loses nothing from charging Fludd, and in most cases (barring shiek), these moves are essentially worthless UNLESS they're fully charged. Nor do Rob, Wario, or Robin, and those are both killmoves. And Villager/G&W lose nothing from being able to store ridiculous amounts of MULTIPLIED killpower behind a 4 frame activation and/or down throw true combo. Where is Pac Man's lack of 1v1 utiltiy with his charge attack removed?


Samus is just badly designed, whether we're talking 1v1, FFA or 8-player smash.

And don't even get me started on Zelda. She's only a bad character because she's designed poorly, plain and simple. They removed Shiek from her and gave her no compensation for it. You have to be sleeping to even be hit by Dins Fire, let alone be killed by it because its sourspot is absolutely massive. Phantom? What is it even for? Who's going to be hit by that thing? It's the most telegraphed attack in the game, it's incredibly slow, and having it on the field gives Zelda no tactical advantage whatsoever because she is NO threat to you behind it.

No, Samus works quite well in FFAs. As does Zelda. Dunno what kind of terrible players you play in FFAs...

Those other moves aren't powerful projectiles. DK can't kill you from a whole stage away, FLUDD does almost nothing except when edgeguarding, Wario can't charge his at will, ROB's gyro isn't very powerful and can be turned against him, Villager and G&W can't get the moves "charged" by them selves, and so on. Pac's key takes a good while to charge and has the charging restriction that Robin has too. That, and he's rewarded more for tossing out hydrants.

 

[Ulevo]

By MK mains logic, MK is clearly sheik's worse matchup, since earlier in this thread they were using tyrant losing as evidence MK gets destroyed by sheik.

Realistically Tyrant just adapted from their last set and outplayed Void, I don't think it's anything wrong with Void's playstyle (you can talk about the things Void could do better but it's not like Tyrant plays perfectly either).

The matchup is essentially even at top level.

Most Meta Knight mains who are knowledgable do not tout Meta Knight as being Sheik's worst match up, but the reverse. This is silly, and the match up becomes less even the higher the skill ceiling goes.

 

[LordShade67]

snip

Admittedly, I could be exaggerating, but frame data could be better in some places, especially vs. rushdown characters. Just me, though.

 

[LightLV]

No, Samus works quite well in FFAs. As does Zelda. Dunno what kind of terrible players you play in FFAs...

Those other moves aren't powerful projectiles. DK can't kill you from a whole stage away, FLUDD does almost nothing except when edgeguarding, Wario can't charge his at will, ROB's gyro isn't very powerful and can be turned against him, Villager and G&W can't get the moves "charged" by them selves, and so on. Pac's key takes a good while to charge and has the charging restriction that Robin has too. That, and he's rewarded more for tossing out hydrants.

Uh, Samus works well in FFA until the players decide they're tired of your BS and just kill you for it. Same with Zelda. I do it all the time, and its hilarious...i mean yeah she's good if she's running around charge shotting you in the back, but why are 2-3 of you letting her charge shot you in the back? And thats only if you don't have a reflector, otherwise she's just as bad as she is anywhere else.

I'll agree that Zelda is actually very competent in teams though, since she isn't actually forced to approach and rely on her opponent being remedial to get hit by her moves. Samus still suffers the same issue of, "im tired of her BS, lets just kill her, because she can't do anything about it" even in teams.

DK can grab you and kill you...i mean he can also throw, smash, aerial or many other manner of ways kill you. FLUDD doing "almost nothing" is just a testament to why Samus is a bad character, it's a gimping tool on a character that is so good he doesn't even need the Dspecial slot. Likewise to Villager and G&W, except now Samus' best (only) tool is just going to ensure a stock loss if she messes up once. The point is, all these characters have kill moves outside their charge moves, and then some. Samus only really has her charge shot, its the hardest charge shot to get charged, and not only does it do damage disproportional to the trouble it takes to get it, she has nothing to fall back on.


Ive said this before...for Samus to stay how she is and be viable, her fully charged cannon needs to kill medium weights from midscreen at 70% no rage, be safe on wiff, and do at LEAST 75% shield damage. Otherwise it's just a Shadow Ball on a vastly weaker character, there is NOTHING to fear from Samus other than a good Dair or clever screw attack if you're past 160%.

 

[LancerStaff]

Uh, Samus works well in FFA until the players decide they're tired of your BS and just kill you for it. Same with Zelda.

I'll agree that Zelda is actually very competent in teams though, since she isn't actually forced to approach and rely on her opponent being remedial to get hit by her moves. Samus still suffers the same issue of, "im tired of her BS, lets just kill her, because she can't do anything about it" even in teams.

DK can grab you and kill you...i mean he can also throw, smash, aerial or many other manner of ways kill you. FLUDD doing "almost nothing" is just a testament to why Samus is a bad character, it's a gimping tool on a character that is so good he doesn't even need the Dspecial slot. Likewise to Villager and G&W, except now Samus' best (only) tool is just going to ensure a stock loss if she messes up once. The point is, all these characters have kill moves outside their charge moves, and then some. Samus only really has her charge shot, its the hardest charge shot to get charged, and not only does it do damage disproportional to the trouble it takes to get it, she has nothing to fall back on.


Ive said this before...for Samus to stay how she is and be viable, her fully charged cannon needs to kill medium weights from midscreen at 70% no rage, be safe on wiff, and do at LEAST 75% shield damage. Otherwise it's just a Shadow Ball on a vastly weaker character.

Doesn't work that way though... We've been over this.

FLUDD gets you killed in FFAs since it locks you in place for about a second without a real hitbox. Doesn't even give you ownership of the kill if I remember correctly. Villager and G&W aren't in every match, and every character still has good and bad matchups in FFAs. Not a problem unique to Samus.

Samus would quite clearly become the best character in FFAs if your change was remotely implemented, like I've said.

 

[Nobie]

I think people here forget that Time FFA exists too and that it's another game mode that has to be accounted for. It doesn't matter if everyone gangs up on you if your kill to death ratio is still higher.

 

[LightLV]

Doesn't work that way though... We've been over this.

FLUDD gets you killed in FFAs since it locks you in place for about a second without a real hitbox. Doesn't even give you ownership of the kill if I remember correctly. Villager and G&W aren't in every match, and every character still has good and bad matchups in FFAs. Not a problem unique to Samus.

Samus would quite clearly become the best character in FFAs if your change was remotely implemented, like I've said.

yes lancerstaff i see what you're getting at

but samus is not the best in FFA even right now, not by a longshot

You know who's WAY more scary in FFA? Bowser, Ike, Gannon, DK, Link. They are heavy, they have wide hitboxes, they don't die, they keep rage, they can hit you BY MISTAKE and you die.

Samus is just clearly sitting over there charging that shot, she's just clearly standing there flashing with that cannon, and once she fires and maybe kills me, she's back to being a bad character again

Meanwhile, Link stops Samus' crappy charge shot with a simple bomb he threw on a whim and keeps shooting projectiles at you,

and when you approach to kill him, he turns around, does any one of his attacks, now you're dead. Samus does not do this, because she is bad

i dont know what magical samus players you're fighting with not-bad roll frames and +100,000 evasion points when more than 2 people are on the stage

 

[Dcas]

I think this is an extrapolation
First, sakurai never said FFA is as important as 1v1 for balance
Second, these charge moves are not that powerful, even in ffa, because ffa are played in various stage, including stage where it doesn't work at all
Third, sheik, falcon, luigi etc... are godly in free for all. FFA should have the exact same tier list, with only maybe rosalina losing viability. Ganondorf in ffa is not good: his high start up mean that he will often be hit while trying to defend himself, and more people mean more projectile.
And Sheik is the best character of all smash with items. A bomb will cancel her only flaw.

Yeah no. Sorry but Sakurai has stated several times that he does not balance the game around 1 v 1, at least thats what he said before releasing smash 4. Perhaps he started to change that philosophy once the game got released but who knows. Also this is an ooold topic, but once again he said he is not interested in catering the competitive community.

 

[⑨ball]

Pit's recovery isn't gimpable.

Could you explain why not? I might be thinking of things too narrowly due to who I main, but I can see absolutely no reason why Pit's exploitable recovery would be considered immune from low percent kills.

Especially considering the example given was one where he's most vulnerable.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think people here forget that Time FFA exists too and that it's another game mode that has to be accounted for. It doesn't matter if everyone gangs up on you if your kill to death ratio is still higher.

Time is the best way to play FFAs, imo, stock makes FFAs too campy -> no one in their right mind wants to take on multiple opponents at the same time when they can keep their stocks by not engaging.

And also... why are FFAs a topic of discussion? Does the title "Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions" cover FFAs too?

 

[Wintropy]

Could you explain why not? I might be thinking of things too narrowly due to who I main, but I can see absolutely no reason why Pit's exploitable recovery would be considered immune from low percent kills.

Especially considering the example given was one where he's most vulnerable.

It's very gimpable.

It's simply a case that, with several recovery options at their disposal, a good Pit doesn't need to put themselves in a position to get gimped.

Most Pits will go under the stage and recover from below, since Pit will slide under the stage until he snaps to the edge. This makes it difficult for characters with weak recoveries to go deep enough to threaten him.

Side-b is itself a good recovery option, but it's very easily intercepted if you just throw a projectile into its path or jump into it. Pit will probably still recover from the fall, but it will force him to reevaluate his recovery plan and briefly puts him in a disadvantaged state.

Pit's recovery is very gimpable, but his wide range of viable options means he doesn't need to get gimped if he's clever.

In the case of Ike and Wii Fit Trainer, Eruption / falling f-air and Header respectively can nevertheless beat Pit.

 

[Planty]

Fox has a TON more trouble getting rid of Luma because he lacks moves that are both quick and powerful enough to send Luma flying away from him. The only moves that knock Luma away are smashes, which are unsafe on block, and F-throws hitbox, which more often than not will miss since Luma needs to be in a very specific position behind grabbed Rosa to get hit by it.

If Luma is tethered to Rosalina, when you grab her and wait for a second without doing anything, Luma will actually move BEHIND her. You could use this to F-throw kill Luma. Rosalina usually won't mash out either, even at low percents. Very few people know about this Luma quirk.