Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Lavani]

vs

Maybe bias because Fox is a character I'm terrible at fighting in general, but I can't see it being as bad as 65:35, he has plenty going for him in the MU.

I didn't actually realize until you mentioned it how lacking Fox's options were for removing Luma, but dash attack, dair, and fair should still send a fresh Luma tumbling, and you should be able to take it out with whatever after it's taken a few hits. Even if a single dash attack doesn't send Luma far, sending it tumbling at all takes it out of commission for a bit and it's a lucrative option for Fox anyway.

It is true that Fox's physics get him brutally murdered by low percent rapid jabs. It is also true that these same physics allow him to SDI out of rapid jab edgeguard cheese, while Rosalina's non-offensive recovery that tends to poke her head into the stage/above the ledge leaves her vulnerable to bair, dsmash on the ledge, fair gimps, uair if recovering high, etc. when she ends up offstage. Rosalina's physics aren't fun against Fox either; she's tall enough that sh bair hits her face, and being large and floaty makes landing against Fox an unpleasant experience when you're being threatened with multiple attacks that will kill you at early percents.

Both characters just wreck each other once one gets the upper hand. Rosalina takes less risks when doing so, but it's far from one-sided.

For what it's worth, Larry Lurr went 6-0 against Falln at E2C 18 this weekend [WF][GF] if you wanna take notes.

 

[thehard]

Since it was brought up

Ike is broken in online timed FFA and FG doubles

 

[Teshie U]

Charge shots arent that good in FFA. Its far more important to be able to hit multiple targets, not just hit one hard. Robin has the best charge shot for FFA (infinite range, hits everyone and everything in its way) and has much better CQC than Samus, Mewtwo or prepatch WFT. Mii Gunner also has nice close up options too.

Mewtwo is going to need to be pretty broken to justify his size and weight. I don't see why this ultimate life form has a frame 6 jab and so many blind spots. He needs to be something you never feel safe against. Uair and Bair need to kill when tipped, Nair needs to be safe on block and true combo into stuff on landing.

 

[PK Gaming]

Mewtwo, and Samus, and WFT, and Robin, and Lucario somewhat, are Charge Shot characters. They live and die by these moves. Charge shots are gigantic boons in FFAs, so naturally they need drawbacks for balance. Which, one way or another, means taking away CQC abilities. Lucario is weird but has aura though... Actually, how stupid his aura is makes sense in a FFA environment.

Anyway, until you remove the Charge Shot, these characters will be severely held back by the moves. This is why Phantoms aren't storable, as Zelda would have to be even worse in 1v1s to compensate.

Just chiming in to say that Robin doesn't live and die by his charge shot special, and is most certainly not held back by it.

In fact, designating these any characters as "Charge Shot" seems pointless and reductive. Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Ghostbone]

Most Meta Knight mains who are knowledgable do not tout Meta Knight as being Sheik's worst match up, but the reverse. This is silly, and the match up becomes less even the higher the skill ceiling goes.

I know they do, the point is there's no evidence for it, all we have is top level MKs going even with/beating Sheiks of their skill level. Statements like "MK loses to needles" are incredibly ridiculous because MK has amazing ground speed and close to the best dash attack in the game, plus it's super hard to actually catch a good MK's landing with needles because he has multiple jumps. Like sure he'll get he'll take damage from needles, needles > bouncing fish might take a stock, but needles are just another option sheik has in neutral (at a reasonable distance), that also requires charging, and are punishable if MK shields them.

Where are the top level Sheik's that have figured out the matchup? We had Mr. R who had PLENTY OF TYRANT EXPERIENCE losing convincingly to Leo. We have tyrant going even with Sheiks he plays against, we had Ito dominating norcal (you think the Sheiks there never thought to just camp MK harder?) You can go on about how Mr. R didn't play right/campy enough but how much johning do you have to do for every single Sheik to justify it being a bad matchup for MK?

 

[Smog Frog]

actually doesnt need much in order to impose a feeling of "i can kill you whenever the **** i want." make jab combo into utilt(doesnt need much for this), which actually combos into usmash on a lot of characters. bop, now you have a character consistently killing sub-100% off a jab. the only other character i think of that does this is . his major problems lie in his frame data not adding up with animations, so you have **** like f7 nair when it looks like it should be f3. also the bull**** invincibility frames.

 

[David Viran]

I know they do, the point is there's no evidence for it, all we have is top level MKs going even with/beating Sheiks of their skill level. Statements like "MK loses to needles" are incredibly ridiculous because MK has amazing ground speed and close to the best dash attack in the game, plus it's super hard to actually catch a good MK's landing with needles because he has multiple jumps. Like sure he'll get he'll take damage from needles, needles > bouncing fish might take a stock, but needles are just another option sheik has in neutral (at a reasonable distance), that also requires charging, and are punishable if MK shields them.

Where are the top level Sheik's that have figured out the matchup? We had Mr. R who had PLENTY OF TYRANT EXPERIENCE losing convincingly to Leo. We have tyrant going even with Sheiks he plays against, we had Ito dominating norcal (you think the Sheiks there never thought to just camp MK harder?) You can go on about how Mr. R didn't play right/campy enough but how much johning do you have to do for every single Sheik to justify it being a bad matchup for MK?

Just to defend Mr. R because he got some crap.

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/638343535318568961

This stuff can really screw with how well you play.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I mean...it's a charge shot. It would be understandable if Samus could reliably combo into the attack, but she can't. Or if it killed reliably sometime before 130%, but it doesn't.

Samus can reliably combo into the CS from many moves and I kill with CS well below 130%. It can kill out of tech chases in the 70+ range from f-tilt, z-air, and super-missile CS kill combos specifically only work below 130%.
Aside from those points of clarification your other statements are indeed correct. I realize you emphasized "reliable" but playing the character a lot they do fit the definition.

No, Samus works quite well in FFAs. As does Zelda. Dunno what kind of terrible players you play in FFAs...

I'm really surprised you persist with this argument after the entire Samus boards ripped you a new one on it. It was very clear from the previous discussion that it is YOU who are playing with terrible players, for the umpteenth time Samus has no particular advantage in FFA and is not specifically balanced around it in any shape or form. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true, and it doesn't convince the players who actually play and know the character in depth.

 

[Patriot Duck]

The reason why Doc isn't used is the same reason why Lucina, Lukas, and Falco aren't being used much, they are just outclassed by the character they are a clone off. In the case of Lukas and Dr. Mario, it seems like they are almost halfway decent, but everyone just picks Ness/Mario over them. Lucina and Falco seem to just be bad though.

I thought we established that Lucas was neither a clone of Ness nor was he "outclassed" by Ness. I know I'm starting to lean towards "Lucas Defense Force" territory, since I dealt with the subject earlier this month, but both their kits are pretty obviously geared towards different play styles.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Fighting Lucas in Smash 4 reminds me of fighting puff in Melee. Combos don't work on those guys and the matchup is usually annoying as hell but it's okay because nobody uses those guys.

 

[meleebrawler]

Forward Smash has issues with hitting up close and it would be cool if that didn't happen, but Down Smash covers the area right in front of him. In terms of movement, Mewtwo's fairly slow walk speed does hurt him, but he has decent run speed, and great air speed, and his poor aerial acceleration is balanced out by teleport and confusion to quickly change his direction. He also has arguably the best air dodge in the game, recovering more quickly than anyone's and turning his Frame 5 fair and Frame 7 nair into quicker moves than they should be.

In fact, there's a lot about Mewtwo that I think is arranged so that he doesn't become too overwhelming in neutral, and perhaps they overcompensated for this. Like, Mewtwo has good top air speed (equal to Mario/Sonic) but poor aerial acceleration, but imagine if his air acceleration was as good as Mario's AND you had Confusion AND you had Teleport AND that amazing air dodge. This isn't even mentioning combining Disable with quick momentum shifts.

I think Mewtwo's weakness can just be summed up as him being a character whose reward seems to not be worth his risk over the long term of a match because of just how much he gets punished for making mistakes. I know that describes a lot of characters at a basic level, but it's different with Mewtwo because he has all of these great tools that when used in conjunction make for a formidable character provided that you're constantly, constantly putting forth thoughtful gambles (which is to say you're not relying on luck but rather understanding your opponent and taking thought-out risks), but if that gamble doesn't turn out in your favor you're kind of boned.

Except the thing is Mewtwo doesn't necessarily HAVE to take big risks to deal damage. Space away with his tilts, getting basic conversions from dtilt (easy to get two shadow claws on fastfallers), chip away with shadow balls etc. and it isn't too hard for him to get his opponents to kill percents without exposing himself to serious risk. And if the opponent should open themselves up while trying to get to him then you can possibly kill them earlier than with a throw.

He specializes in mid-to-long range combat and is fairly good at keeping his opponents there, dealing damage while beating back or punishing approaches. This is a different kind of glass cannon than Akuma who's always trying to break down the opponent's defences because, while his distance game is good, his low stamina usually puts him on the losing end of wars of attrition.

Obviously such a punish-based playstyle is not the most consistent in terms of winning tournaments but unlike most other characters who play like that he has very few, if any fundamentally unwinnable or extremely difficult matchups (only Sheik seems to really fit the former). He can answer almost any approach and deny many attempts to keep him away. This coupled with fairly versatile playstyle seems to be what makes him a pretty popular secondary in Japan; he can definitively close sets on downloaded opponents and cover some random poor matchups that their primary may have.

Indeed, as has been said before for Ganondorf, Mewtwo beats players. Not characters.

Charge shots arent that good in FFA. Its far more important to be able to hit multiple targets, not just hit one hard. Robin has the best charge shot for FFA (infinite range, hits everyone and everything in its way) and has much better CQC than Samus, Mewtwo or prepatch WFT. Mii Gunner also has nice close up options too.

Mewtwo is going to need to be pretty broken to justify his size and weight. I don't see why this ultimate life form has a frame 6 jab and so many blind spots. He needs to be something you never feel safe against. Uair and Bair need to kill when tipped, Nair needs to be safe on block and true combo into stuff on landing.

I do agree Uair could use something a little more, but as it stands it has great horizontal range and can do 11%, pretty high for a move of it's speed. And bair just has such gigantic range for challenging almost any aerial you can imagine, edgeguarding and stage spiking that any further buffs would really be just gravy.

Nair is easily safe on block if you use Mewtwo's airspeed correctly (ie cross up), and it CAN lead into things on landing if you practice it. Not to mention you can surprise people with the last hit's range.

Robin may have better CQC, but he most definitely needs it when he can hardly get away when people decide to go after him.

I dunno, but isn't kind of fitting that a Psychic type known for amazing Special Attack would be better at indirect combat than up close?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Fighting Lucas in Smash 4 reminds me of fighting puff in Melee. Combos don't work on those guys and the matchup is usually annoying as hell but it's okay because nobody uses those guys.

I assume ur playing dk in the MU? If so, yeah he does. At 0%: U tilt>pivot grab(assuming the AD happens) cargo u throw> Nair>uair. Damage bruh. He does get comoboed and outspaced as often they rely on Nair to cover themselves.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just chiming in to say that Robin doesn't live and die by his charge shot special, and is most certainly not held back by it.

In fact, designating these any characters as "Charge Shot" seems pointless and reductive. Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

In FFAs he does. Seriously doubt he'd have some of the poorest movement in the game without a reason like that.

I'm really surprised you persist with this argument after the entire Samus boards ripped you a new one on it. It was very clear from the previous discussion that it is YOU who are playing with terrible players, for the umpteenth time Samus has no particular advantage in FFA and is not specifically balanced around it in any shape or form. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true, and it doesn't convince the players who actually play and know the character in depth.

If by "ripped a new one" you mean half of them agreed with me, then yes.

How much do you play FFAs? Doesn't matter how much you play Samus if you don't do FFAs... Nobody in FFA is massively ahead or behind, and there's no agreement on who places where outside of some seriously bogus theorycraft.

 

[Teshie U]

Mewtwo is not good at keeping his opponents out.

He only really excels when his opponent isn't fast enough to get in and is forced to linger at Mewtwo's optimal range. Only then does he get a fair shot. Dtilt is nice, but its not unique there. Plenty of other characters can poke with low tilts with similar safety AND they can afford to accept punishment when its not the right idea.

He needs a frame 2 jab and frame 6 grab with hitboxes respectable enough for his size. He is grabbing with freaking psychic energy, why doesn't it reach his feet? Uptilt spins his whole body in a circle but where is the rest of the hitbox?

Nair is way too swag to be so lackluster. This demon cat monster is straight up FLEXING HIS MIND and striking a pose, some of the hitboxes in there should at least be rivaling luigi nair. When this flying feline god comes down on your shield like a purple super saiyan, you should be afraid.


Its really a shame Ridley can't be in the game because "if we shrunk him down and didnt let him fly he wouldn't be the cool Ridley villain guys", but Mewtwo and Ganondorf aren't menacing or scary at all. At least Ganondorf is broken in doubles...

 

[Smog Frog]

I assume ur playing dk in the MU? If so, yeah he does. At 0%: U tilt>pivot grab(assuming the AD happens) cargo u throw> Nair>uair. Damage bruh. He does get comoboed and outspaced as often they rely on Nair to cover themselves.

except he's probably keeping out with zair and sh pkf. it's probably a good mu for .

 

[Patriot Duck]

I assume ur playing dk in the MU? If so, yeah he does. At 0%: U tilt>pivot grab(assuming the AD happens) cargo u throw> Nair>uair. Damage bruh. He does get comoboed and outspaced as often they rely on Nair to cover themselves.

As long as we're on the subject, I think DK is one of Lucas's best match-ups. It seems like DK lacks the approach options to navigate Lucas's SH PK Fires and zairs, as well as the frame data to compete with Lucas in CQC. Granted, DK can definitely put the hurt on Lucas, but it's almost absurdly easy to wall DK out for the entire game.

 

[Locke 06]

Mewtwo is not good at keeping his opponents out.
He needs a frame 2 jab and frame 6 grab with hitboxes respectable enough for his size. He is grabbing with freaking psychic energy, why doesn't it reach his feet? Uptilt spins his whole body in a circle but where is the rest of the hitbox?

Nair is way too swag to be so lackluster. This demon cat monster is straight up FLEXING HIS MIND and striking a pose, some of the hitboxes in there should at least be rivaling luigi nair. When this flying feline god comes down on your shield like a purple super saiyan, you should be afraid.

1. Stop trying comparing a moveset to the character. Just because someone is menacing, doesn't mean anything. A "swag" move doesn't need to be good because it has swag.
2. F2 jab. Stop. You don't know what you're doing.

 

[Man Li Gi]

except he's probably keeping out with zair and sh pkf. it's probably a good mu for .

As long as we're on the subject, I think DK is one of Lucas's best match-ups. It seems like DK lacks the approach options to navigate Lucas's SH PK Fires and zairs, as well as the frame data to compete with Lucas in CQC. Granted, DK can definitely put the hurt on Lucas, but it's almost absurdly easy to wall DK out for the entire game.

When I home, I can properly address these issues.

 

[Thor]

2. F2 jab. Stop. You don't know what you're doing.

Unless there's something absurdly broken about Mewtwo's jab as is that would become more obnoxious with a jab speed buff OR Mewtwo is MUCH closer to being a very good character than I'd guess, Sheik has frame 2 jab, Pikachu has frame 2 jab [lol], ZSS and Mac have frame 1 jabs... I don't think this would be at all broken [again, unless I'm missing something, he's not gonna have a good Sheik matchup if his jab is all of a sudden tied with hers in speed], although it might be a poor attempt to address the problems Mewtwo actually faces [his combination of weight and floatiness and size, lack of a reliable combo throw, etc.]

 

[Ulevo]

I know they do, the point is there's no evidence for it, all we have is top level MKs going even with/beating Sheiks of their skill level. Statements like "MK loses to needles" are incredibly ridiculous because MK has amazing ground speed and close to the best dash attack in the game, plus it's super hard to actually catch a good MK's landing with needles because he has multiple jumps. Like sure he'll get he'll take damage from needles, needles > bouncing fish might take a stock, but needles are just another option sheik has in neutral (at a reasonable distance), that also requires charging, and are punishable if MK shields them.

Where are the top level Sheik's that have figured out the matchup? We had Mr. R who had PLENTY OF TYRANT EXPERIENCE losing convincingly to Leo. We have tyrant going even with Sheiks he plays against, we had Ito dominating norcal (you think the Sheiks there never thought to just camp MK harder?) You can go on about how Mr. R didn't play right/campy enough but how much johning do you have to do for every single Sheik to justify it being a bad matchup for MK?

You're saying there is no evidence for it because a few really great players managed to beat reputable Sheiks a couple of times? Did it ever occur to you that the reason this is not a common occurrence is because most of the time Meta Knight's are not even placing well and losing to Sheiks?

I am not trying to down play the character, I am just saying your prioritization for what evidence is needed to prove what is backwards. Not to mention that you say there is no evidence for it, which is to say that the opinions of Meta Knight players in the community are irrelevant, yet you come up with your own theory craft to justify why your assertion is right.

tl;dr most Meta Knight's say we lose to Sheik, and I am inclined to believe most of them as a collect group are likely to know better than you.

 

[Teshie U]

1. Stop trying comparing a moveset to the character. Just because someone is menacing, doesn't mean anything. A "swag" move doesn't need to be good because it has swag.
2. F2 jab. Stop. You don't know what you're doing.

Nothing wrong with swag. Its far more entertaining for viable moves to look cool, so high level play can look at exciting as possible. look at Marvel vs Capcom. Lots of viable swag looking stuff for the spectators. Lots of cool looking moves in Smash 4 are also very usable at high levels. Knee of Justice, Bouncing fish, Rosalina's Jab (she is spacing you with a fairy wand or something), Luigi Cyclone, everything ZSS, Ryu and Fox (except his laser) do.

Comparing Mewtwo to other characters is more fair here because he doesn't have any of their redeeming qualities. His physics, weight and size are holding him back so hard that he NEEDs all the stupid frame data and hitstun he can get.

He can't capitalize off of the pressure or safety of his better moves (shadow ball, dsmash) because of his slowish startup on everything else. Even he has frame advantage he winds up with frame disadvantage because he can't do anything first anyway.

 

[Mario766]

Since it was brought up

Ike is broken in online timed FFA and FG doubles

Just as he was in Brawl.

 

[Vipermoon]

Mewtwo can't have a frame 2 jab 1 that does 4%. Although Luigi with his broken damage output comes close.

 

[Teshie U]

He is just going to cancel it anyway, not like he really wants to lead into that rapid jab. Doesnt really even matter if it did 1 damage, he needs to be able to defend himself as even the smallest things are a huge chunk of his stock.

 

[Ghostbone]

You're saying there is no evidence for it because a few really great players managed to beat reputable Sheiks a couple of times? Did it ever occur to you that the reason this is not a common occurrence is because most of the time Meta Knight's are not even placing well and losing to Sheiks?

I am not trying to down play the character, I am just saying your prioritization for what evidence is needed to prove what is backwards. Not to mention that you say there is no evidence for it, which is to say that the opinions of Meta Knight players in the community are irrelevant, yet you come up with your own theory craft to justify why your assertion is right.

tl;dr most Meta Knight's say we lose to Sheik, and I am inclined to believe most of them as a collect group are likely to know better than you.

Theorycraft isn't evidence

I don't care if every MK main says they lose to Sheik if the best MK mains are going even with Sheiks of their skill level.
Maybe MK loses to sheik at mid level, I don't care about that since it doesn't reflect the true matchup.

 

[TDK]

How's the MU vs. ? I haven't had too much trouble with it, especially since Jab 3 kills at around 120% with rage, but Fox can combo Ike hard due to most of his moves bing on the slower side. Any thoughts?

On the Ike topic, Ike's jab, while one of his best moves, has a significant flaw. Certain moves beat Jab 1 to the punch [Shoryuken is especially troublesome, as it is both faster than Jab 1 and a reliable kill move], and against characters with 1-3 Frame Combo starters [Needles, Sheik F-Tilt, a large portion of Little Mac's moveset, etc]

or, while rarer, Kill moves. [Shoryuken, Rest, Rising Uppercut, etc]

This is a large problem. Is there anything that can help circumvent it?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Yeah no. Sorry but Sakurai has stated several times that he does not balance the game around 1 v 1, at least thats what he said before releasing smash 4. Perhaps he started to change that philosophy once the game got released but who knows. Also this is an ooold topic, but once again he said he is not interested in catering the competitive community.

Sakurai says a lot of things...seriously anything he says shouldn't be taken seriously.
If that were the case, why are Ike, Bowser, DK, all 'strong' characters in FFA, FG Doubles, get buffs if Sakurai doesn't balance the game around 1v1's? Lmao

 

[⑨ball]

How's the MU vs. ? I haven't had too much trouble with it, especially since Jab 3 kills at around 120% with rage, but Fox can combo Ike hard due to most of his moves bing on the slower side. Any thoughts?

On the Ike topic, Ike's jab, while one of his best moves, has a significant flaw. Certain moves beat Jab 1 to the punch [Shoryuken is especially troublesome, as it is both faster than Jab 1 and a reliable kill move], and against characters with 1-3 Frame Combo starters [Needles, Sheik F-Tilt, a large portion of Little Mac's moveset, etc]

or, while rarer, Kill moves. [Shoryuken, Rest, Rising Uppercut, etc]

This is a large problem. Is there anything that can help circumvent it?

Seem like questions for the Ike boards rather than the VRCI, but as for being beaten out by reversals on relatively safe options, there's not much you can do outside of not giving them the hitbox to beat out. That's kinda how they work.

Sheik Ftilt and Mac stuff are more footsies issues so it comes down to spacing and counter poking. Pretty sure needles within range of jab 1 to hit don't start up fast enough to beat it. Perhaps you're just acting too slow or early for jab to be used efficiently?

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai says a lot of things...seriously anything he says shouldn't be taken seriously.
If that were the case, why are Ike, Bowser, DK, all 'strong' characters in FFA, FG Doubles, get buffs if Sakurai doesn't balance the game around 1v1's? Lmao

They're not lmao.

They're all juggle food, especially Bowser. Dude spends most of the match trying to land. Of course when he does he has Fsmash but yaknow, balance.

 

[DungeonMaster]

If by "ripped a new one" you mean half of them agreed with me, then yes.
How much do you play FFAs? Doesn't matter how much you play Samus if you don't do FFAs... Nobody in FFA is massively ahead or behind, and there's no agreement on who places where outside of some seriously bogus theorycraft.

Just because I never want you to ever bring up this ridiculous idea again, not one person agreed with you, your comments and arguments were de-constructed at length and laughed at: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-10-balance-change-speculation.412182/page-3
You didn't even know that Samus had grab combos, I mean, seriously.
You can continue to *think* whatever you want - just don't misrepresent community opinion and don't be surprised when people correct you.
We did this in detail, let it die.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just because I never want you to ever bring up this ridiculous idea again, not one person agreed with you, your comments and arguments were de-constructed at length and laughed at: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-10-balance-change-speculation.412182/page-3
You didn't even know that Samus had grab combos, I mean, seriously.
You can continue to *think* whatever you want - just don't misrepresent community opinion and don't be surprised when people correct you.
We did this in detail, let it die.

I could **** smear too and pick a topic with everybody against you, but going tit for tat wouldn't accomplish much. That's not the only topic where we've had this conversation... Actually, the next page has somebody defending me and calling everybody else out for being hostile, and I believe I get an apology from at least one person.

Pretty sure I said her grab game sucked. Bad grab means bad grab game.

 

[Ghostbone]

They're not lmao.

They're all juggle food, especially Bowser. Dude spends most of the match trying to land. Of course when he does he has Fsmash but yaknow, balance.

Idk, the one case study we have of a FFA tournament ended with Bowser dittos in grand finals (that pre-release 3DS one)

He seems pretty good with bowser bomb lol.

Like the dev team doesnt overall balance for our skill level, they throw us a bone here and there nerfing the best characters, but Ike got nerfed from Brawl because he was amazing in FFAs in that game lol, not because he was a competitive 1v1 threat. (in this game he's been retooled a bit and functions better in 1v1 and worse in ffa)

 

[LancerStaff]

Idk, the one case study we have of a FFA tournament ended with Bowser dittos in grand finals (that pre-release 3DS one)

He seems pretty good with bowser bomb lol.

A day zero tournament isn't exactly something I'd put stock on... Most of them were trying to shield Bowser Bomb, a very obvious thing to never do nowadays. Bowser was just the noob character everybody picked.

 

[Ghostbone]

A day zero tournament isn't exactly something I'd put stock on... Most of them were trying to shield Bowser Bomb, a very obvious thing to never do nowadays. Bowser was just the noob character everybody picked.

You don't think that the majority of people that play this game try to shield bowser bomb and get punished?

Not talking about the competitive community here, talking about the majority of the playerbase.

If bowser was good in a 1v1 setting he'd be completely bonkers at a casual level. Bowser IS extremely potent in casual FFAs and thus won't ever get buffed.

 

[ARGHETH]

In FFAs he does. Seriously doubt he'd have some of the poorest movement in the game without a reason like that.

I'm pretty sure that how Sakurai made Thoron didn't have much to do with Robin's bad mobility on the ground. I'd say it's more a mix of balancing the durability mechanic, smash aerials, and to make it stand out from the other Thunder variants.

 

[Locke 06]

Unless there's something absurdly broken about Mewtwo's jab as is that would become more obnoxious with a jab speed buff OR Mewtwo is MUCH closer to being a very good character than I'd guess, Sheik has frame 2 jab, Pikachu has frame 2 jab [lol], ZSS and Mac have frame 1 jabs... I don't think this would be at all broken [again, unless I'm missing something, he's not gonna have a good Sheik matchup if his jab is all of a sudden tied with hers in speed], although it might be a poor attempt to address the problems Mewtwo actually faces [his combination of weight and floatiness and size, lack of a reliable combo throw, etc.]

A disjointed frame 6 4% jab with low cooldown that doesn't go into recoil (essentially beating any ground move that does 13% or less), leads into things in his kit, and sets up an easy trap for disable against characters with moderate landing lag aerials.

Comparing Mewtwo to other characters is more fair here because he doesn't have any of their redeeming qualities. His physics, weight and size are holding him back so hard that he NEEDs all the stupid frame data and hitstun he can get.

He can't capitalize off of the pressure or safety of his better moves (shadow ball, dsmash) because of his slowish startup on everything else. Even he has frame advantage he winds up with frame disadvantage because he can't do anything first anyway.

Let's look at some other disjointed jabs:

Robin: f4-7/ FAF 32 / 3%
Roy: f5-7/ FAF 23/ 7.5% hilt, 4.5% tipper
Marth: f5-7/ FAF 29 / 3% hilt, 5% tipper
Link: f7-8/ FAF 28 / 2.5%

Mewtwo: f6 f2/ FAF 25 / 4%, doesn't recoil.

Yep. Let's give this character with a disjointed dtilt that has 14 frames of cooldown (2 frames less than Marth's famous dtilt), a disjointed frame 2 jab to stuff approaches that transitions seamlessly into his kit. Make him force shields to that Mewtwo can grab and use his high damage throws or his command grab. Oh, and this is the character with an incredibly strong projectile that can kill and a reflector. Oh, and a teleport that can be used to ledge cancel and get out of traps.

Nothing wrong with swag. Its far more entertaining for viable moves to look cool, so high level play can look at exciting as possible. look at Marvel vs Capcom. Lots of viable swag looking stuff for the spectators. Lots of cool looking moves in Smash 4 are also very usable at high levels. Knee of Justice, Bouncing fish, Rosalina's Jab (she is spacing you with a fairy wand or something), Luigi Cyclone, everything ZSS, Ryu and Fox (except his laser) do.

Like I said, stop. Just because a move is cool looking, doesn't mean it needs to be safe on block, lead into things, and the only option anyone would ever use to approach. It is clear you do not know what you're talking about when you suggest giving incredibly abusive tools to a character.


As bad as Mewtwo is, it's not like he CAN'T DO THINGS. It's that at a high level, things get done to him. Making him more polarizing makes him broken at mid-beginner level play, since those things that kill him are not executed as often. See Bowser.

 

[LancerStaff]

You don't think that the majority of people that play this game try to shield bowser bomb and get punished?

Not talking about the competitive community here, talking about the majority of the playerbase.

If bowser was good in a 1v1 setting he'd be completely bonkers at a casual level. Bowser IS extremely potent in casual FFAs and thus won't ever get buffed.

Sakurai balances for mid-level players. Not people who walk right under Bowser a hundred times assuming shield will work this time. Actually, most people roll past everything. Which is probably the best way to deal with Bowser Bomb.

And now you're agreeing with me...

I'm pretty sure that how Sakurai made Thoron didn't have much to do with Robin's bad mobility on the ground. I'd say it's more a mix of balancing the durability mechanic, smash aerials, and to make it stand out from the other Thunder variants.

Bad movement, powerful but limited aerials, poor recovery and not much else doesn't make sense... You could just go with Bowser who hits just as hard with minor (in FFA) drawbacks on said aerials while being durable and actually has at least one good movement option. Thoron's big in FFAs because while Robin gets beat up quite a bit he can damage everybody else just as much.

 

[Teshie U]

A disjointed frame 6 4% jab with low cooldown that doesn't go into recoil (essentially beating any ground move that does 13% or less), leads into things in his kit, and sets up an easy trap for disable against characters with moderate landing lag aerials.


Let's look at some other disjointed jabs:

Robin: f4-7/ FAF 32 / 3%
Roy: f5-7/ FAF 23/ 7.5% hilt, 4.5% tipper
Marth: f5-7/ FAF 29 / 3% hilt, 5% tipper
Link: f7-8/ FAF 28 / 2.5%

Mewtwo: f6 f2/ FAF 25 / 4%, doesn't recoil.

Yep. Let's give this character with a disjointed dtilt that has 14 frames of cooldown (2 frames less than Marth's famous dtilt), a disjointed frame 2 jab to stuff approaches that transitions seamlessly into his kit. Make him force shields to that Mewtwo can grab and use his high damage throws or his command grab. Oh, and this is the character with an incredibly strong projectile that can kill and a reflector. Oh, and a teleport that can be used to ledge cancel and get out of traps.



Like I said, stop. Just because a move is cool looking, doesn't mean it needs to be safe on block, lead into things, and the only option anyone would ever use to approach. It is clear you do not know what you're talking about when you suggest giving incredibly abusive tools to a character.


As bad as Mewtwo is, it's not like he CAN'T DO THINGS. It's that at a high level, things get done to him. Making him more polarizing makes him broken at mid-beginner level play, since those things that kill him are not executed as often. See Bowser.

Sword characters aren't the only ones with disjoints. Most of the quick jabs also come with a nice little disjoint even if its from a hand or leg hitbox. All of these characters also have MUCH more going for them. If Mewtwo is throwing out his jab all day, you can still easily outrange it as the disjoint isn't that big and he will die at 50-60 in alot of matchups because of it. If this character is going to be designed to die from losing neutral once or twice, he better be damn good in neutral.

As I said, Mewtwo having quicker frame data is easily offset by how badly he gets bodied for being wrong. He deserves a moveset with a high probability of being right.

Teleport can get you out of some traps yes, but its still frame 9 and isn't nearly as dumb as what top tier characters have to get out of sticky situations. Its very limited as it puts him helpless or requires certain spacing to ledge cancel. The tools other good characters have in disadvantage aren't just movement options, they double up as versatile options for offense as well.

HIgh damage throws? Why would that matter at all when almost everyone with low damage throws gets a free aerial follow up most of the time anyway. Mewtwo may get a nice 10-13 damage from a throw, but pretty much every character worth talking about can take you for 20-30 damage, set up early kills with DI mixups AND their grabs actually function properly.

 

[Browny]

Almost all of mewtwos moveset is swag and tbh i prefer it that way instead of him being too powerful, generic and boring like luigi.

Also speaking of Mewtwo being able to keep people out, so few people understand just how safe his dsmash is. Its only got 22 frames of end lag.

To put that in perspective;

Mario ftilt: 25
Falco ftilt: 20
Marth jab: 24
Sheik dtilt: 24
Zss ftilt: 21

Mewtwos dsmash is unpunishable on block to many characters who lack long-range tethers or without top-tier dash attacks and dsmash whiff into dtilt is safe on block if the enemy runs in to try and punish the dsmash but shields the dtilt. It's pretty good

 

[Man Li Gi]

Patriot Duck Smog Frog
A good DK will be playing patient against a Lucas and wait for the obvi zair and shpkf. Thing is, often times I find myself walking and ducking below the attempts to keep me out. In fact many times I face a Lucas, time out or runaway games are my thing as though DK has the absurd range to keep Lucas out and all by fighting him head to head, I like to go a more "this is your own medicine" by retreating and all. If you must play aggro as DK against Lucas, never fear cuz the pattern of keeping someone out is especially predictable, (zair to nair if too close, zair to pkf if optimal range, zair to run up jab). A good DK would stay low to the ground and wait for an opening instead of trying to approach and since Lucas isn't really putting up a wall (more like a fence) of hitboxes, the openings get easier to see.

The instant DK starts trying to get grab happy= death, so just play with your tilts. My fav is utilt as it covers all the range I need and kills, but walk up crouch dtilt works too. Sadly, RAR Bairs aint gonna cut it for DK, so aerial approach is a no. Usually go deeper in depth, but right now doing too much work.