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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Pyr

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Almost all of mewtwos moveset is swag and tbh i prefer it that way instead of him being too powerful, generic and boring like luigi.
To each their own.


Also speaking of Mewtwo being able to keep people out, so few people understand just how safe his dsmash is. Its only got 22 frames of end lag.

To put that in perspective;

Mario ftilt: 25
Falco ftilt: 20
Marth jab: 24
Sheik dtilt: 24
Zss ftilt: 21

Mewtwos dsmash is unpunishable on block to many characters who lack long-range tethers or without top-tier dash attacks and dsmash whiff into dtilt is safe on block if the enemy runs in to try and punish the dsmash but shields the dtilt. It's pretty good :)
Aaaand to put it into more perspective, that's a 21 frame start up on a D-Smash that only hits on 1 side. It may be safe on shield, but it's so react-able that, by pure reaction to the animation, ~8 frame, or faster, options will clank/beat it to the punch.

It's really not the best. And if we're talking about keeping people out, it's even more so not the best.
 

Pyr

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You started with, "Also speaking of Mewtwo being able to keep people out," which lead me to believe that that was the primary use to which you were referring to. I was stating that the speed of it prevents it from being so.

My bad.
 

TriTails

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Everytime people say 'Mewtwo has wonky hitboxes' or 'DHD's smashes don't link well' I question what people are talking about.

Probably only one or two Mewtwo's F-smashes whiff at me when it should've hit. Rest I NEVER been able to take advantage of its 'blindspot' I've been hearing about. I get hit by jab everytime. I get grabbed everytime. What actually is wonky about those hitboxes?

Also.
Me: Oh look I got caught in DHD's F-smash. It shouldn't connect all the wa-
*Gets killed*
Me: Me what.

I think I was just SDI-ing poorly on DHD's smashes, but I really need to get the prescription on 'Mewtwo's jab doesn't cover his feet' or 'U-tilt doesn't cover a thing' I've been hearing. There're like zero things wrong about Mewtwo's hitboxes at my end.
 

Teshie U

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Mewtwo Dsmash is slow enough to roll behind him on reaction, no shieldstun/drop, no safety. Most dsmashes are especially unfriendly to people rolling behind. The ones that hit on only the front usually do something spectacular. Ryu's is crazy fast for such a damaging ranged move, ZSS gives her free whatevers, Lucas Dsmash hits alot and kind of covers close rolls behind him too.

If you happen to wind up shielding it, you punish Mewtwo by getting closer to him. Unlike those other folks that space something safe on your shield, he doesn't have fast moves to mix you up with afterwards, so just run in and pretend there is lag, but all he can hope to do is shield.

Mewtwo has some cool properties on his moves, but it doesn't matter if he can't hit with them and he dies for ever taking a risk. Powering him up would not make him like Luigi. Luigi has a couple of things that are REALLY good that carry his entire moveset. When these things work, they dominate, but when they don't Luigi is nearly worthless.

Right now Mewtwo has a complex yet unsafe gameplan that would normally only work out for a heavy, but he is the most fragile character in the game. Almost reminds me of Squirtle in Brawl. Very light, poor recovery and fatigue holding back what could almost be good.
 

Wintropy

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Everytime people say 'Mewtwo has wonky hitboxes' or 'DHD's smashes don't link well' I question what people are talking about.

Probably only one or two Mewtwo's F-smashes whiff at me when it should've hit. Rest I NEVER been able to take advantage of its 'blindspot' I've been hearing about. I get hit by jab everytime. I get grabbed everytime. What actually is wonky about those hitboxes?

Also.
Me: Oh look I got caught in DHD's F-smash. It shouldn't connect all the wa-
*Gets killed*
Me: Me what.

I think I was just SDI-ing poorly on DHD's smashes, but I really need to get the prescription on 'Mewtwo's jab doesn't cover his feet' or 'U-tilt doesn't cover a thing' I've been hearing. There're like zero things wrong about Mewtwo's hitboxes at my end.
Just because Duck Hunt's f-smash has a noted tendency to disconnect doesn't mean it will disconnect every time. Or as you say, it may have been a case of poor SDI.

Now I don't want to be that cat and say "you don't know Mewtwo", because I don't know Mewtwo either, but I think this kind of thesis is best reserved for people with firsthand experience of the character. I imagine it's more evident that your hitboxes don't do what they're supposed to do when you're the one holding the controller and can see when the hitboxes otherwise connect.

EDIT: I didn't mean for this to come off as condescending in any way, it's just my two cents. Just that I know a few Mewtwo players and they tend to agree that Mewtwo has hitbox difficulties.
 
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Shaya

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While we don't know how a character's design is focused, we can make assumptions.
We do know that the game is considered for more than just 1v1s with most game options ignored.

Logically, they always would be appealing to the widest/grandest audience.
For it's own longevity, a balance team are going to "fix things not truly broken" and focus on the middle class (applicable majority); just like economics assures us India and China are going to dominate markets in the coming generations, anything but gearing towards them is insanity. We are playing a game with downloadable content, and they want us to continue purchasing this content, the likelihood of us doing so hinges on interest not only maintaining itself but also growing!
Character balancing is just a marketing strategy, and (painfully) they don't provide patch notes likely for increased social media exposure that results from widespread placebo outbreaks (it's deadly and contagious!).

Sakurai has frequently implied other ways of playing the game that he prefers when queried about balance. Free for alls, items, doubles, varied stages, different scrub win conditions, engine options, NON-BATTLE MODES (single player, etc), heck even 5+ player games may be considered, and likely a lot more than we'll ever know for certain: online interactions.
Unlike previous Smash games it seems there has been more focus on keeping character's capabilities to passable in the most frequent multiplayer options, some characters being particularly more capable than the average in the more "fun" types have seen reservation from the balance team. Certain characters who have been overtuned by our perspective have more issues in free for all than they end up having in singles; for example (not necessarily still, but at least at game release) Falcon's disadvantage state, Ness' recovery and poor mobility, Diddy's batmanesque prep time requirements etc etc.
Meta Knight in Brawl was particularly average in the non-battle modes [and with items] if you consider his normal took kit rather than his specials, I assume most agree he's awful in those areas now. His low damage, transcended priority normals and all specials putting him into free fall just screams "weak" when you compare to how strong we feel Ganon and Bowser can be in those contrasting situations. The compensation they gave him was not very well thought out; shuttle loop and tornado were so strong (almost like how they are in Kirby games) that they nullified a lot of the cast in multiplayer modes without real counter play.

Just like how we have to consider viability with the perspective of multiple grades of tournament and multiple levels of play, we have to realise this game isn't being changed for us but all the varying demographics. It's feasible things change by our actions, low level replicable strategies spread like wild fire and the original source may be a zero video or someone like you or me, but I can't truly imagine we would be even an eighth of the equation let alone half or a majority.

So what are we meant to do?
We'll likely only ever have assumptions. But we have objective data on which characters are getting changed, the patch cycle is closing in on a year now and certain things stick out for what actually happens verses our opinions (Zero Suit and Mario, Jigglypuff and Dedede). I've always stipulated a correlation between Japanese tier lists and patches, but it could only be coincidence; their tier lists do take into consideration online competitive play, they may naturally reflect the statistics we can only dream about knowing. If a character is not receiving love, then there is enough to analyze with varied or personal anecdotes to bolster the idea they are happy with where they are for the sake of something other than offline 1v1s, or like any balance team is afflicted with how to cater to minorities without negatively impacting the majority.
We don't know how much longer content is going to come for this game, but as a group of people trying their best to understand the game, we do have to accept the product we receive and mold a "metagame" around is not going to have the same field of view as Nintendo. If we can understand why a character is low tier, while assuming the paradoxical idea that Smash4 is a "very well balanced game for competitive play", then the only conclusion is they are balanced -- just not for us.
 
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Smog Frog

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:4mewtwo: just needs basic character decency fixes. those being obvious blindspots(why is the purple spark on dashgrab not a grabbox?) and substandard invincibility frames on everything but airdodge(i have no way of recording but i managed to hit him with :4sonic: ftilt on a normal trip getup, when it wouldnt have hit any other character) and dishonest animations(nair looks like it should be f3, but its actually f7...)

what format is he good in, anyway? smash run?
 

Jamurai

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Mewtwo's Dsmash is uncannily similar in terms of frame data, disjoint and range to MK's Fsmash, which is considered a powerful and useful move; it is frequently used as a spacing and baiting tool, especially against short range characters eg. Mario, Pika. They even have similar damage and knockback properties, the only significant difference being that Mewtwo's kills off the side later because it knocks enemies back at a more vertical angle.
 

TriTails

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Just because Duck Hunt's f-smash has a noted tendency to disconnect doesn't mean it will disconnect every time. Or as you say, it may have been a case of poor SDI.

Now I don't want to be that cat and say "you don't know Mewtwo", because I don't know Mewtwo either, but I think this kind of thesis is best reserved for people with firsthand experience of the character. I imagine it's more evident that your hitboxes don't do what they're supposed to do when you're the one holding the controller and can see when the hitboxes otherwise connect.

EDIT: I didn't mean for this to come off as condescending in any way, it's just my two cents. Just that I know a few Mewtwo players and they tend to agree that Mewtwo has hitbox difficulties.
I just find it strange a lot of people seem to be noticing it while I don't. I mean, I've been getting uber stuffs like misfire twice in a row, but I've fought quite a bit of Mewtwos and so far almost every one does not have any kind of trouble hitting me, there are nearly no blindspots getting in the way or such.

I get it I don't know Mewtwo, but if it's such a popular consensus across the board, I'm at least bound to experience it a few times right? I've fought a lot of Mewtwos and even some of them are pretty bad, but F-smash blindspot only happened to me once, otherwise the move connects with zero problems. No problem with the animations too, as far as I can tell.

Though, I don't own Mewtwo, and you're right. Perhaps it's better for people who actually own and play Mewtwo to make a conclusion. My bad.
 

NachoOfCheese

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:4mewtwo: just needs basic character decency fixes. those being obvious blindspots(why is the purple spark on dashgrab not a grabbox?) and substandard invincibility frames on everything but airdodge(i have no way of recording but i managed to hit him with :4sonic: ftilt on a normal trip getup, when it wouldnt have hit any other character) and dishonest animations(nair looks like it should be f3, but its actually f7...)

what format is he good in, anyway? smash run?
No he sucks in that, too. No custom specials lmao.
In my book, the fact that Mewtwo has an extremely good projectile prevents him from being unusable garbage. Right now, he's usable garbage.
 

wedl!!

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Honestly, I had always thought Jigglypuff was the worst character in the game until everyone realized Mewtwo doesn't work properly. I still think they're pretty close to each other in terms of junk levels. Samus is maybe worse than Jiggly, I'm not sure. \(._.)/
 

Nobie

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I feel like people tend to over-value certain qualities when talking about the strength of a character, and that it skews people's perceptions of what makes a character "work" or not. As an example, Ryu's punish game has begun to overshadow the rest of his character, even though he has so many other good qualities. It leads to people saying things like "Ryu's approach is bad" or "Ryu's neutral is bad."

Mewtwo isn't Ryu and probably won't be bar some amazing patch, but I do think people have such lopsided views of the character that causes them to misunderstand how he works. Mewtwo is not lacking in options for anything. He has long, disjointed normals, a kill throw, an amazing command grab + reflector, and the ability to potentially follow up on a lot of things he does. The issue is that people think that in order for Mewtwo to be a proper glass cannon that he needs more guaranteed combos, and just generally a more overwhelming offense, even if that's not necessarily good for the game.

In general I think Smash in general has skewed people's perceptions of "good neutral game" towards "absolutely oppressive domination" but that's a topic for another time.

It's not like a slow, heavy hitter where you argue, "Well if the opponent freaks out at just this moment, then forward smash might hit!" Mewtwo's moveset collectively presents him with just so many options in just about every situation that you are heavily rewarded for playing a good mixup game. He doesn't have something like a Samus f-tilt which would be really good if its end lag wasn't so bad, and he's not lacking any vital component of his game plan like Jigglypuff's air-oriented presence having a difficult time vs. shields. Attack beats grab, grab beats shield, shield beats attack, as we know. Mewtwo has a jab that beats other attacks, a command grab on top of killing throws, and shield...well the lack of traction makes it pretty bad, but it sometimes works out in his favor. On top of that, I feel like Mewtwo has to really heavily change his game plan depending on who he's fighting, and this affects his status. Maybe he falls into the same tricky theorycraft land as Pac-Man as a result, but it's not like Mega Man who can just jump n shoot everyone or Rosalina who just has to think of different ways to wall. The way almost everyone has to change their normal style to fight Luigi, Mewtwo has to do that with pretty much every character.

All it comes down to is that Mewtwo likely gets punished too hard for losing the mixup. It perhaps makes him low tier. That's not a poor game plan or anything. It's harsh and unforgiving, but it's not an impossible feat like Melee Sheik vs. Bowser where Bowser can't do anything BECAUSE Mewtwo does have those tools to win against a wide range of character archetypes. Mewtwo has very few "Why didn't it work" scenarios and many "Holy crap it didn't work I'm in trouble" ones.

One last thing, which is a question that I'm curious about. There are two basic ways to buff Mewtwo. First is boosting his offense to ridiculous lengths, making his aggression and punish game super nasty. Second is buffing his defense so that he doesn't get as punished when he loses the mixup. Which one do people prefer? I think it might say interesting things about how we perceive balance and such.
 

TriTails

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Can we talk about :4littlemac:?

This character is hillarious. Even more so in FD (In which he becomes straight pain in the *** for everyone to fight). I get it he can't ever dream on becoming solo-viable as long as MK exist, but his strength simply can't be overlooked.

- Frame 1, hold A-esque jab. Don't ever think on punishing him from the front out of a whiffed attack unless you have speed.
- ******** F-tilt. Seriously. Frame 4 move that stuffs everything, deals 12%, and kills somewhere at 110% near the edge.
- WTF F-smash (Why the heck does it have a windbox, out of all things?). Frame 14, 19%, super armor, 'What is this' range.
- Probably the best D-smash in the game. Low damage (12% in front), but is extremely quick and lagless, and covers everything. Don't forget super armor.
- N-air is actually fairly decent (But is still very very bad) for Mac. Frame 2 and one of the lagless aerials out there, and can somehow lock people in place to the ground for a followup? I've seen people doing it provided they are in the correct height.
- Jolt Haymaker being extremely fast, kills, and a very good '**** your punish' move.
- Frame 1 invincibility Up-B. Can get out of his own rapid jab and packs some good kill power.
- Counter reaching out like Falcon's F-smash.

Are his problems on being super weak to platforms and his own tier in recovering simply overshadow those strengths so much they don't even matter? Because this character is straight stupid in FD and maybe you can pull him out in that stage?
 
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Ghostbone

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Little mac is probably the best bad character to put your time into.

Because obviously his design leads to him invalidating characters (stage dependent), while getting invalidated by others (and anyone on duck hunt lol). He's just an example of ridiculously polar design, super fun though.

His tilts/jab are all super dumb because you can't clank with them, and you can't land anywhere near this character because super armour smashes beat every landing option. D-smash covers ledge vulnerability too so anyone with predictable recovery timing gets wrecked.
 
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LightLV

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They're not lmao.

They're all juggle food, especially Bowser. Dude spends most of the match trying to land. Of course when he does he has Fsmash but yaknow, balance.
...I rarely ever play 3s or FFA, but it quickly becomes exceedingly obvious how threatening Bowser, Gannon, Ike, any anyone like them become when they are no longer the only target on the screen. It does not matter the skill level of the players. Drop the FFA argument. I understand your reasoning for THINKING it to be plasuable, but you're clearly just reaching for it to be true at this point.

In general I think Smash in general has skewed people's perceptions of "good neutral game" towards "absolutely oppressive domination" but that's a topic for another time.

One last thing, which is a question that I'm curious about. There are two basic ways to buff Mewtwo. First is boosting his offense to ridiculous lengths, making his aggression and punish game super nasty. Second is buffing his defense so that he doesn't get as punished when he loses the mixup. Which one do people prefer? I think it might say interesting things about how we perceive balance and such.
That's because in Smash, "good" characters almost always have the capacity to completely oppressively dominate the opponent. It doesn't mean that mid-tier, more grounded characters are bad. It just means the meta gets so skewed by character that can do this that it becomes somewhat of a circlejerk.


And unfortunately, its silly to even discuss buffing his offense to balancing levels, because it isn't going to happen. Even accepted low-tier characters who are balanced with massive offensive power to compensate are loathed by the casual community, because not knowing how to exploit whatever weakness they have basically makes them seem invincible.

Can we talk about :4littlemac:?
Little Mac actually has ^this^ issue....to a degree, but he's more a case of smash being far too unforgiving with the power in his moveset becuase more than 50% of it is completely useless, with his recovery being a bit too bad considering the game he's playing in.

Mewtwo though? I would personally rather them give him Little Mac -tier strength and maybe even make him jigglypuff weight, rather than just make him heavier and keep him average.

Little Mac is basically Jesus-tier broke**** when he's on the ground and has his space, but any moment after that, he becomes useless. Little Mac is completely worthless on battlefield. Again, his entire gameplan revolves around your opponent not knowing just how bad your bad points are. His recovery is just too dreadful for a game that functions like Smash 4, and having aerials that simply do not kill isn't helping him in any way.

On FD he is a god of battle, then you get counter picked and instantly lose. It's just not a good balance for him.
 
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Routa

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I would say that he is an amazing character for Doubles and he is a great counterpick character. The thing is that he is the only character whose greatest foe is the stage he is standing on... Depending from the stage he goes from being "über master slaughter 666 into trash. I do think he has potential, but for now I think his main places are FG hell and Doubles. But hey... Only time will tell us.
 
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DunnoBro

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Everytime people say 'Mewtwo has wonky hitboxes' or 'DHD's smashes don't link well' I question what people are talking about.

Probably only one or two Mewtwo's F-smashes whiff at me when it should've hit. Rest I NEVER been able to take advantage of its 'blindspot' I've been hearing about. I get hit by jab everytime. I get grabbed everytime. What actually is wonky about those hitboxes?

Also.
Me: Oh look I got caught in DHD's F-smash. It shouldn't connect all the wa-
*Gets killed*
Me: Me what.

I think I was just SDI-ing poorly on DHD's smashes, but I really need to get the prescription on 'Mewtwo's jab doesn't cover his feet' or 'U-tilt doesn't cover a thing' I've been hearing. There're like zero things wrong about Mewtwo's hitboxes at my end.
Probably because you don't know why DHD's smashes don't link well.

It's because of the random angles of the entire move. Sometimes they line up properly in relation to the spacing, sometimes they don't. Also charging it makes it less likely to connect fully too. There's no way for the DHD to guarantee the strong hit connects unless they space it only for that hit to connect, but he lacks the mobility to do that consistently.

SDI isn't really a factor though it hurts. Spacing, percent, rage mode, and character size matter more.

I'm willing to bet you lack the fundamental understanding of mewtwo's stuff that his mains do too, though I'm not aware of his specific issues either.
 
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Rikkhan

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Maybe I'm missing something, but why the 2 frames of ledge vulnerability is not abused more? I know it's hard to do but it's not that hard.
 

DunnoBro

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Because obviously his design leads to him invalidating characters (stage dependent), while getting invalidated by others (and anyone on duck hunt lol).
IIRC The new faster falling upb let him threaten platform campers more effectively now. Or at least scare them since he can kill you at 0 for trying that ****. (Hits with one upb, lands on platform, does another)

I dropped a game to a mac in grand finals of TCG sundays like that because I tried just camping him after he took me there.
 
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Ghostbone

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Maybe I'm missing something, but why the 2 frames of ledge vulnerability is not abused more? I know it's hard to do but it's not that hard.
Nobody really understands it (teleporting recoveries can have no vulnerability frames depending on spacing I believe? so it might not even be possible to hit them if they recover properly)
Also different characters are in different positions during ledge vulnerability, characters with far down hurtboxes can't easily be punished. (someone correct me i'm probably wrong about this, but it certainly seems the case with falcon/rosalina having super high up hurtboxes?)
2 frames is hard to time.
Most characters don't have a strong move that hits the vulnerability from the stage, the characters that do tend to get abused a lot actually (sonic down angled f-smash, fox d-smash, ZSS flip jump kick).
 
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Rikkhan

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I never seen a ZSS doing that, fox and somewhat sonic and falcon are the only character that people are trying the vulnerability punish, but what about others? you shouldn't let a sheik recover low for free.

Edit: it took me 30 mins to be able to punish a cpu sheik with ~70% accuracy, with 1-2 week of training I'm pretty sure you will be able to do that on a good player.



(I pretty sure I'm gonna get **** because cpu)
 
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LightLV

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Maybe I'm missing something, but why the 2 frames of ledge vulnerability is not abused more? I know it's hard to do but it's not that hard.
Because it's 2 frames, and it is worse than hard, it's essentially random. The margin of error is massive, and the variables to what could make it go wrong are plenty.

1) everyone doesn't snap the ledge at the same time, or place
2) everyone doesn't have hitboxes that reach the ledge from the stage
3) startup frames need to be considered
4) active frames need to be considered
5) enemy recovery attacks have hitboxes on them.
6) Smash 4 recoveries are ********, so the enemy can do all sorts of things to off your timing.
7) With some characters like Marth/Lucina, Ike, Ryu ect, you just wont get the chance. Link can literally kill you for trying to snap kill him, easily.


It's a VALUABLE window, but it seems to be so deliberately hard to exploit that i doubt it's ever going to be big except for the few characters that can exploit it easily. This is why top players don't even bother half the time.

You screw up and they get on the stage for free, or worse just punish you for it, because this is smash 4, and recovering players deserve special treatment.
 
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DavemanCozy

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If Luma is tethered to Rosalina, when you grab her and wait for a second without doing anything, Luma will actually move BEHIND her. You could use this to F-throw kill Luma. Rosalina usually won't mash out either, even at low percents. Very few people know about this Luma quirk.
Interesting tidbit, and I agree many people probably don't know about this Luma quirk. I'm usually too scared to wait to throw Rosa since Luma has her N-air, I can imagine this must be why many don't know about Luma's positional re-adjustment.

Maybe bias because Fox is a character I'm terrible at fighting in general, but I can't see it being as bad as 65:35, he has plenty going for him in the MU.

I didn't actually realize until you mentioned it how lacking Fox's options were for removing Luma, but dash attack, dair, and fair should still send a fresh Luma tumbling, and you should be able to take it out with whatever after it's taken a few hits. Even if a single dash attack doesn't send Luma far, sending it tumbling at all takes it out of commission for a bit and it's a lucrative option for Fox anyway.
All you said is true, but also requires positional advantage and should be done cautiously. Dash attack is risky at high %, since Luma's moves clank with Fox's and she will usually have the upper hand here. Not to mention that Rosa can shield dash attack and punish Fox, even if he did hit Luma (which Faln did in those games to Larry).

The latter require Fox to be in the air, which is generally scary and an unpleasant position against Rosa in the ground as her and Luma's U-air and U-tilts are brutal.

It is true that Fox's physics get him brutally murdered by low percent rapid jabs. It is also true that these same physics allow him to SDI out of rapid jab edgeguard cheese, while Rosalina's non-offensive recovery that tends to poke her head into the stage/above the ledge leaves her vulnerable to bair, dsmash on the ledge, fair gimps, uair if recovering high, etc. when she ends up offstage. Rosalina's physics aren't fun against Fox either; she's tall enough that sh bair hits her face, and being large and floaty makes landing against Fox an unpleasant experience when you're being threatened with multiple attacks that will kill you at early percents.

Both characters just wreck each other once one gets the upper hand. Rosalina takes less risks when doing so, but it's far from one-sided.

For what it's worth, Larry Lurr went 6-0 against Falln at E2C 18 this weekend [WF][GF] if you wanna take notes.
I'd say the same goes with Fox though when it comes to coming back onstage, as I said before it's nothing new for offstage Foxes, but his recovery is particularly abused by Rosa.

Larry is godlike, and all Fox's pale in comparison to him, so I definitely will take keep taking notes :)

I definetely exaggerated: 6:4 would probably be the way the mu turns out, I do still believe Rosa wins it though and I still think it's Fox's worst. She is phenomenal at walling out Fox, but she also dies quite early against him (though Fox does too against her).
 

TDK

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Touching on :4mewtwo: 's blindspots: There are a lot of them. It's very frustrating when playing Mewtwo to have your kill moves miss, or your grab wiff, and then get punished for it.

Mewtwo has the same issues as :4zelda: in which they are characters with horrendous fundamental flaws. In Mewtwo's case, it's his weight mixed with his size, to the extremes that he dies at 40% vs. certain moves [Rosalina Up Air, Roy/Marth tipper FSmash, etc] heck, I've killed a Mewtwo at 0%. 0% with Lucario. Why? Mewtwo just needs to Eat a Sandwich. Even with Patch buffs, Mewtwo [and Zelda] are going to be bad until they get their fundamental design issues.
 

Radical Larry

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I think there's a tie between Samus, Toon Link and Robin's N-Airs as the worst N-Airs in the game, but it probably goes to Toon Link because he has better tools than his atrocious N-Air. At least Robin can set up with his N-Air and Samus can semi-spike with her N-Air in the front. But Toon Link is just too small, the attack comes out too fast and it's borderline unusable if you full hop; and again, he has better options.
Touching on :4mewtwo: 's blindspots: There are a lot of them. It's very frustrating when playing Mewtwo to have your kill moves miss, or your grab wiff, and then get punished for it.

Mewtwo has the same issues as :4zelda: in which they are characters with horrendous fundamental flaws. In Mewtwo's case, it's his weight mixed with his size, to the extremes that he dies at 40% vs. certain moves [Rosalina Up Air, Roy/Marth tipper FSmash, etc] heck, I've killed a Mewtwo at 0%. 0% with Lucario. Why? Mewtwo just needs to Eat a Sandwich. Even with Patch buffs, Mewtwo [and Zelda] are going to be bad until they get their fundamental design issues.
Mewtwo has decent speed aerially and ground-wise, and his attacks aren't that bad. There's a thing called spacing your attacks; and Mewtwo is a technical character that has a bit of a learning curve. You need to learn how to utilize his attacks to their best potential instead of complaining about it; take it upon yourself to actually find good within Mewtwo and exploit it. You'll be surprised at what Mewtwo can actually do.

Personally, I've had no kill moves miss with Mewtwo with the exception of D-Air (I always mistime certain jumps or the opponent air dodges). Secondly, I've had no problem in actually winning with him. I just use him in a technical manner as so: Rush-down, spacing, bait and punish. Those are the things I do with him and try certain things to allow space; I even use an RAR Shadow Ball to make Mewtwo go in front or toward and opponent and hit the opponent with any Smash that can come into reflex; and it works sometimes, and other times, I might dodge, spot dodge or hit with the Shadow Ball.

I've picked up Mewtwo (like I've done with multiple other characters) and he's a decent and viable character. I just have no problem with him, though Zelda, eh, I don't use her much so I have no say in her.

I can't see the problems with Mewtwo like you all see, so am I missing something?
 

Mr. Johan

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You designate Robin's Nair as one of the worst but fail to mention Bowser's or Kirby's.

I'd argue that Sonic's even goes in that category when used as a standalone move.
 

LancerStaff

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User was warned for this post
...I rarely ever play 3s or FFA, but it quickly becomes exceedingly obvious-
I'm sorry but now your opinion on the matter means nothing to me. You saying it's "obvious" is like everybody who thought it was "obvious" that Mac was the best singles character. Come back with some real experience and we'll talk.
 

DavemanCozy

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Can we talk about :4littlemac:?

Are his problems on being super weak to platforms and his own tier in recovering simply overshadow those strengths so much they don't even matter? Because this character is straight stupid in FD and maybe you can pull him out in that stage?
A Little Mac main who goes by Frupcakes in Ontario:
https://youtu.be/EG2L6IkNLzg

The character is the butt of jokes when it comes to "lelelel just toss him offstage #winning" and half of the stage list hates him. He has a really powerful neutral game in the ground - which combined with his foxtrot dances makes him hard to catch - and some hilariously powerful smash attacks with super armor to boot: essentially he wins the trade by losing the trade, he stays anchored in the ground while the opponent goes flying. However, Little Mac's offstage survivability is the worst in the game and probably only better than N64 Link's recovery, his air game is incredibly situational / near useless, and he really really gets shut down by half of the stage list and a ton of the top tiers, even in FD.

N-air is meh, it helps him interrupt certain combos from characters like Luigi or Fox, but that's about it, they usually have enough time to do something else after being sucker punched and it really only annoys them, unless Little Mac times it perfectly to land and do something else. Jolt Haymaker has another application in using it after a ledge-getup, but if shielded can be very unsafe and not worth using against opponents at low %. No one ever mentions his Straight Lunge as a landing option against jabs. The charge has super-armor too, and it tanks through Shieks jabs, Luigi's jabs, ZSS's jabs, Fox jabs, etc.

As far as stages go, anywhere Little Mac can't reach properly really hinders him. Little Mac essentially needs to move around the opponent and force a reaction other than shield in someway, but that someway is beyond me. Speaking of shields, Little Mac really struggles with them because his grab is really short-reaching and he doesn't really get much off throws anyways. F-tilt's two hits, D-tilt spaced, and U-tilt hitting a shielding opponent with his/her back towards him somewhat gives him shield pressure, but it's simply not good enough to remove his problem with them.

Little Mac isn't solo-viable at the end of the day: yes he has some ridiculous things, but he also has fatal flaws (and I mean fatally bad flaws) that skews the scale of risk-reward almost all the way down to risk. There are many characters who have good neutral and movement along the ground, while also not having to put up with all the risk and also having options to chase opponents properly in the air or offstage. He might be a surprise secondary and he can pull of amazing results with the right teammate in doubles though.
 
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Agent Emerald

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You designate Robin's Nair as one of the worst but fail to mention Bowser's or Kirby's.

I'd argue that Sonic's even goes in that category when used as a standalone move.
I can't vouch for Bowser's but Kirby's Nair is really flexible since you can use it in some combos as it can follow up fthrow and can be follow up with Up tilt when landing cancelled, give Kirby some breathing room when landing, and it has low landing lag to boot.
 
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Browny

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You know whats interesting

If Smash 4 didnt have attack trails, absolutely no one would complain about Mewtwo having 'wonky' hitboxes and they wouldnt think hes so bad because of it. Bair is the only exception.

People think that the trails represent where the hitbox is but its just an animation... Just because there is a purple line, doesnt mean the attack should hit there.

For example, there is literally nothing wrong with his forward air, but because the purple trail appears under his swipe people think that its missing a hitbox. No, the hitbox is actually attached to his arm, its the HITBOX TRAIL which is in fact, wrong.

Mewtwos fair actually hits ABOVE the hitbox trail, not below. Thats what allows it to do this


Thats 1-2 frames apart there. The lower part of the hitbox trail is just the start up frames. If shadow claw actually had a hitbox matching that, it would be like a frame 3 attack! The attack starts shortly after the swipe begins and its still frame 6 which is damn fast. If Mewtwos fair trail was shifted upwards by a bit and only lit up on frame 6, it would match the animation. It doesnt mean the attack is 'wonky' it just means that the hitbox is higher up than it seems and in fact, fairs hitbox is quite large when you consider how powerful and fast it is, hitting that high above him.

Seriously the attack could be utterly unchanged but if the purple trail was shifted upwards people would go 'omg he got buffed fair now matches the animation' when literally nothing changed.

The same applies to utilt and uair. There is no hitbox where the attack visibly stops. You cant expect it to have active frames for literally the entire movement of his tail, no character has anything like that. It has start-up frames where the tail moves to begin the sweep, and cooldown after the sweep. Theres no reason why it should have a hitbox during those frames. Seriously his utilt is F8-13 ends on 30 and Marios utilt is F5-11 ends on 30. If it had active frames where the trail looks like it would be more like F5-20 which would be pretty ridiculous.

bair is stupid and grab should go further, but honestly people really blow out of proportion how bad the hitboxes are. I've put in a ton of hours in Mewtwo and the only attacks that annoy me are bair and grab. Never have I thought I hit with an attack that missed because of some weird hitbox.

This bugs me because if Mewtwo doesnt get buffs with hitbox increases on many attacks people are gonna cry 'omg sakurai ignored him hes still bad hitboxes bla bla bla' when in reality, the hitboxes were never broken (except bair and grab).
 
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Agent Emerald

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You know whats interesting

If Smash 4 didnt have attack trails, absolutely no one would complain about Mewtwo having 'wonky' hitboxes and they wouldnt think hes so bad because of it. Bair is the only exception.

People think that the trails represent where the hitbox is but its just an animation... Just because there is a purple line, doesnt mean the attack should hit there.

For example, there is literally nothing wrong with his forward air, but because the purple trail appears under his swipe people think that its missing a hitbox. No, the hitbox is actually attached to his arm, its the HITBOX TRAIL which is in fact, wrong.

Mewtwos fair actually hits ABOVE the hitbox trail, not below. Thats what allows it to do this


Thats 1-2 frames apart there. If Mewtwos fair trail was shifted upwards by a bit, it would match the animation. It doesnt mean the attack is 'wonky' it just means that the hitbox is higher up than it seems and in fact, fairs hitbox is quite large when you consider how powerful and fast it is, hitting that high above him.

Seriously the attack could be utterly unchanged but if the purple trail was shifted upwards people would go 'omg he got buffed fair now matches the animation' when literally nothing changed.

The same applies to utilt and uair. There is no hitbox where the attack visibly stops. You cant expect it to have active frames for literally the entire movement of his tail, no character has anything like that. It has start-up frames where the tail moves to begin the sweep, and cooldown after the sweep. Theres no reason why it should have a hitbox during those frames. His uair has 5 active frames, which is the same as captain falcon.

bair is stupid and grab should go further, but honestly people really blow out of proportion how bad the hitboxes are. I've put in a ton of hours in Mewtwo and the only attacks that annoy me are bair and grab. Never have I thought I hit with an attack that missed because of some weird hitbox.

This bugs me because if Mewtwo doesnt get buffs with hitbox increases on many attacks people are gonna cry 'omg sakurai ignored him hes still bad hitboxes bla bla bla' when in reality, the hitboxes were never broken (except bair and grab).
Does that explain why Bair hits so much higher than where we think it should hit?
 

Browny

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Does that explain why Bair hits so much higher than where we think it should hit?
Bairs hitbox follows the tail exactly where it looks like, but not hitting from point blank is just dumb. It really needs either to start up a few frames earlier or begin the tail sweep from a lower angle such that the active frames begin when it starts to sweep up, not after.
 

ARGHETH

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I think there's a tie between Samus, Toon Link and Robin's N-Airs as the worst N-Airs in the game, but it probably goes to Toon Link because he has better tools than his atrocious N-Air. At least Robin can set up with his N-Air and Samus can semi-spike with her N-Air in the front. But Toon Link is just too small, the attack comes out too fast and it's borderline unusable if you full hop; and again, he has better options.
...Robin's Nair is one of the worst in the game? How?
Why is TL's nair too fast and why is that a bad thing? It hits on f6, same as Marth and MK's nairs.
 

DavemanCozy

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Where does Robin stand atm? I remember (s)he was put at top 20 at one point by esam, but I'd like to hear from the mains of the tactician.

M@v thinks (s)he beats Fox too. I disagree with him, personally, though I do understand what he meant with the advantages (s)he has against him in terms of KO power with Levin and making life offstage hell with ArcFires.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Mewtwo is an okay character if you play him very defensively. Shadow ball and confusion are very good moves for zoning. Shadow ball in particular is insanely good since its very low endlag can setup into a grab if the opponet gets close, allowing mewtwo to once again gain a positional advantage.
 

Megamang

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Browny Browny I think what you are describing is the wonkiness people dislike. The whole point of those hit trails is to help people understand the hitboxes around them; why don't mewtwo's correlate to his hitboxes when almost every other move does. Hell, we've even had patches to fix when other trails don't match, as with meta knight.

The bair i can accept as a cool animation; a matching hitbox on that would me massive and hard for many characters to bypass. But fair having a bright purple swipe that does nothing, jab missing after the purpevil clearly hits, and grabs sparkling people's faces without working is very frustrating, especially on such an unforgiving character.
 
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