Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Aunt Jemima]

eSAM thinks Robin is in top 20, better than Diddy Kong

wat

 

[Routa]

Wario's air speed is 4th best behind Yoshi, Jiggly, and Roy. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirSpeed

I meant overall air mobility.

 

[PUK]

You don't go off stage to edgeguard with Zelda either.

Of course you do, this is the only way to use Zelda aerials safely.
Being floaty, with a long range recovery and long lasting hitboxes makes Zelda edgeguard top tier (you can even burn you DJ and still come back, which is something few can pretend).
You're lucky if you come back against her, unless you can recover very high.
Also the collision issue is something like Diddy's collision issue, if you know to avoid it (pro controller allows easy 360°) it's not an issue.
You can't gimp Zelda if she recovers safe. As soon as she keeps her double jump she can come back from anywhere, including the bottom blast zone. She doesn't have to be worry about being predictible, so she can just fast fall to a point where no sane opponent will try to case her and come back.

 

[Ghostbone]

The more amusing thing is ESAM putting luigi 3rd.

Biased because his character loses to luigi.

 

[UberMadman]

Wario's air speed is 4th best behind Yoshi, Jiggly, and Roy. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirSpeed

Actually, Wario and Roy are tied. So they're both 3rd in this case.

 

[Shaya]

Of course you do, this is the only way to use Zelda aerials safely.
Being floaty, with a long range recovery and long lasting hitboxes makes Zelda edgeguard top tier (you can even burn you DJ and still come back, which is something few can pretend).
You're lucky if you come back against her, unless you can recover very high.
Also the collision issue is something like Diddy's collision issue, if you know to avoid it (pro controller allows easy 360°) it's not an issue.
You can't gimp Zelda if she recovers safe. As soon as she keeps her double jump she can come back from anywhere, including the bottom blast zone. She doesn't have to be worry about being predictible, so she can just fast fall to a point where no sane opponent will try to case her and come back.

She'll intercept recoveries , I'll cede that. But top tier edge guarder? Sounds hopeful.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Sheik, Wario, MK, Pikachu and Pac-Man have the 5 best recoveries in the game. Getting gimped or not making it back onto the ledge as one of these characters is an achievement in itself.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Sheik, Wario, MK, Pikachu and Pac-Man have the 5 best recoveries in the game. Getting gimped or not making it back onto the ledge as one of these characters is an achievement in itself.

Well there's always the off chance that Wario accidentally leaves his bike on the stage when he gets knocked off...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well there's always the off chance that Wario accidentally leaves his bike on the stage when he gets knocked off...

Chances are that he'll still have fart + upB + amazing airspeed. So even if you mess up as Wario and leave your bike onstage you still have a better recovery than like the majority of the cast.

 

[UberMadman]

I know that some of ESAM's opinions are weird, bu have you guys SEEN the latest Japanese tier list? Apparently Donkey Kong is the worst character in the game and Mewtwo is a B tier.

 

[PUK]

I think Sheik, Wario, MK, Pikachu and Pac-Man have the 5 best recoveries in the game. Getting gimped or not making it back onto the ledge as one of these characters is an achievement in itself.

Sheik is way easier than wario to gimp. I don't understand why everyone think she has the best recovery. ZSS has a better one.
Also pacman recovery is not among the best. People being lazy and not trying to challenge some character while they recover doesn't mean they can recover for free.

I know that some of ESAM's opinions are weird, bu have you guys SEEN the latest Japanese tier list? Apparently Donkey Kong is the worst character in the game and Mewtwo is a B tier.

I'm ok with DK being the worst because it looks true when you put Marth and Ike and Lucina and charizard in the E tier.
Like WTF who does this tier lists. Because this is the best way to make once again a Marth invelidating half the cast.

Ok the more i look the more this tier list looks like a tier list of everything but viability. Maybe it's a community popularity contest, a classement of the best looking amiibos or something else...

 

[TriTails]

I know that some of ESAM's opinions are weird, bu have you guys SEEN the latest Japanese tier list? Apparently Donkey Kong is the worst character in the game and Mewtwo is a B tier.

Ike in 50th.

And DK the worst character?

This tier list is invalidated. I don't care on how they rank other characters. But to put Ike, Lucina, and DK in bottom 3 is madness.

 

[Splebel]

Sheik is way easier than wario to gimp. I don't understand why everyone think she has the best recovery. ZSS has a better one.
Also pacman recovery is not among the best. People being lazy and not trying to challenge some character while they recover doesn't mean they can recover for free.

It's also on the Pacman player to not put himself in a situation that he can easily be gimped but yeah, Pac's recovery tends to be overrated.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I know that some of ESAM's opinions are weird, bu have you guys SEEN the latest Japanese tier list? Apparently Donkey Kong is the worst character in the game and Mewtwo is a B tier.

Samus is 40th. 41-52 getting buffed next patch, calling it now. Also Pika at 17th clearly needs less lag on Quick Attack to be viable.

 

[Smog Frog]

why is number 2? thats a good way for him to get more unnecessary nerfs. why are top 10 but isnt? the japanese are crazy people.

 

[Browny]

I know that some of ESAM's opinions are weird, bu have you guys SEEN the latest Japanese tier list? Apparently Donkey Kong is the worst character in the game and Mewtwo is a B tier.

Thanks for this, I really like seeing how the other half of the world sees the same game as us. @smogfrog they arent crazy, thats how they see if. If you lived in Japan you'd probably think that too. I'm sure they think Americans are crazy for overrating Luigi as you seem to agree with :]

First things first, who is #42, google translate tells me its "# 42 Pudding" lmao I want to main that, whatever it is.

Isn't it odd how the Japanese really don't have any care for the FE characters?

 

[UberMadman]

Ok the more i look the more this tier list looks like a tier list of everything but viability. Maybe it's a community popularity contest, a classement of the best looking amiibos or something else...

Nope; it's a tier list. Even crappily Google translating the page will guarantee you of that. It's heavily based on results at high level Japanese tournaments, which is partially why Pikachu and Olimar are so comparatively low and Mewtwo, Duck Hunt, and Pac-Man are comparatively high.

 

[outfoxd]

Japan is keeping DH off the buff list. Unless Brood knows something we don't. Possible, I guess.

 

[TriTails]

First things first, who is #42, google translate tells me its "# 42 Pudding" lmao I want to main that, whatever it is.

I saw something along the lines of 'purine' so it might be Jigglypuff.

And Pudding? I laughed.

 

[UberMadman]

First things first, who is #42, google translate tells me its "# 42 Pudding" lmao I want to main that, whatever it is.

Pudding is Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff's Japanese name, Purin, literally means Pudding.

 

[PUK]

If you can't find a good translation, add amiibos behind, it will show a picture.

 

[Spinosaurus]

First things first, who is #42, google translate tells me its "# 42 Pudding" lmao I want to main that, whatever it is.

Purin. As in, Jigglypuff.

I need more context on that tier list. Is it community voted or what?

 

[warionumbah2]

Isn't it odd how the Japanese really don't have any care for the FE characters?

I read somewhere that they hate Ike because he doesn't fit the Japanese anime protagonist cliche. US loves Ike design to my knowledge he looks cool, but Japan called him a "gorilla" when he was announced.

Marth is a pretty boy with no muscle, similar to many other main characters. Probably find it hard to self insert into Ike, the hate then effects his representation and then boom bottom tier in every list even with buffs they hate Ike so much they won't ever use him.

 

[TriTails]

Purin. As in, Jigglypuff.

I need more context on that tier list. Is it community voted or what?

No. Someone pulled a tier list outta their ***.

Either way, nothing much to see but nonsense there. Move along people.

 

[UberMadman]

The page definitely talks about character strengths and weaknesses. For example, Sonic is described as lacking kill power and a projectile under cons. That doesn't sound like the description of an amiibo, does it?

No. Someone pulled a tier list outta their ***.

Either way, nothing much to see but nonsense there. Move along people.

Actually, I heard that top player input was contributed to this, but that could be a purely unsubstantiated rumor, so take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Double post .

 

[bc1910]

Never thought I'd say this but I'm so happy to see Greninja still being rated low by people. Since at this point I know he's good, yet if others don't see it he might continue to get buffed.

Oh and shock horror I agree with the rest of you and I think both ESAM's list and the Japanese tier list are really bad for many reasons. Diddy at 18th ESAM?

 

[Browny]

I read somewhere that they hate Ike because he doesn't fit the Japanese anime protagonist cliche. US loves Ike design to my knowledge he looks cool, but Japan called him a "gorilla" when he was announced.

Marth is a pretty boy with no muscle, similar to many other main characters. Probably find it hard to self insert into Ike, the hate then effects his representation and then boom bottom tier in every list even with buffs they hate Ike so much they won't ever use him.

Perfectly plausible. I hope a lot of other people take note of just how much character bias can affect so-called 'tournament viability'.

When people simply don't like a character, they aren't going to be represented and therefore appear bottom tier.

Literally every single argument people can make against this list for being 'dumb' they could say about a western tier list where there is mad bias for fan-favourite characters

 

[Jabejazz]

Of course you do, this is the only way to use Zelda aerials safely.
Being floaty, with a long range recovery and long lasting hitboxes makes Zelda edgeguard top tier (you can even burn you DJ and still come back, which is something few can pretend).
You're lucky if you come back against her, unless you can recover very high.

You'll have to excuse my skepticism on the matter. She can chase very deep and attempt an edgeguard and safely come back on stage because of her recovery. But a top tier edgeguarder? Not buying it.

The page definitely talks about character strengths and weaknesses. For example, Sonic is described as lacking kill power and a projectile under cons. That doesn't sound like the description of an amiibo, does it?

That's funny, because Sonic himself is a projectile.

, but that could be a purely unsubstantiated rumor, so take it with a grain of salt.

This should be the name of the thread.

 

[UberMadman]

Yeah, we over here tend to overrate Roy and Luigi quite a bit. It's funny, even though most diehard Fire Emblem fans hate Roy for being the worst Lord, he's become quite a popular character in Smash.

That said, I do not agree with him being D tier. He's like... B- at worst imo.

 

[Trifroze]

I think Luigi and Falcon, while both being good characters, work a lot better in mid to high level environments because they both have a major weakness (recovery) that gets exploited a lot more at the top level. Ness is starting to feel it as well, and this sometimes results in considerable differences of opinion regarding their tier placing. I remember back in like December making a post about how exploitable weaknesses will get magnified as the meta develops. Some recoveries are just so linear that the character will die 90% of the time they get thrown offstage, however some people just don't go for it or aren't experienced enough to seal the deal in these cases. Imagine the difference in performance when a Ness dies more than half the time he gets thrown offstage vs when Ness gets back for free every time. We're easily talking a difference of an entire tier / about 5-10 placings.

Also in the case of all these characters, especially Luigi, avoiding being grabbed is relatively easy if you really build your gameplan around that. If you don't, he can seem straight up overwhelming.

EDIT: Also that tier list is apparently some sort of a mash-up of tier lists from several different sites/communities.

 

[Shaya]

I need more context on that tier list. Is it community voted or what?

"It is basically has created a rank by aggregating the opinions of each site, does not deny also be arbitrary interpretation is on"
So although they don't list the website sources they're referring to, that's what it is. As people have pointed out before, there's a large chance that they're overall just referring to tournament results, in which case it is reflecting popularity and perceived power level.
Rosalina is third on this list although the shi-gaming one we were talking about recently (from June) had her as like 8th? Some top japanese players were rating DK and Mario very highly recently.

Either way, yay, 3 more frames off uair/fair/dair/bair and 2 off nair on Marth confirmed.
Although right now we have no idea when another patch is going to come.

 

[Ffamran]

I am legitimately curious as to what Japan thought of Brawl Ike vs. Smash 4 Ike. If it's purely the difference of Ike's appearance dragging down Smash 4 Ike, then that's really, really stupid. There's a difference between regions just not feeling a character like apparently Fox doesn't appeal to France, but that's fine; that's a no interest sort of thing. Disliking a character purely because he looks "different" is another story since it'd be really stupid for a character no matter how good or bad to be brought down because he doesn't look "cool". Those are rumors except for Kotaku's - yay, a site that is now considered clickbait compared to in the past - forum pull or whatever of "Japan thinks Ike is a gorilla". For one, that's offensive and highly insensitive to people who have that body type. You don't see people saying they don't like Wario because he's a fat **** or disliking Little Mac because he looks "mixed" - whatever that really means nowadays... Then again, there are people who hate on ZSS because to them, she's a *****.

Anyway, even with people saying regions play different, let's assume that Japan is a methodical region... Wouldn't that make Marth, Ike, and Olimar more highly praised? Characters who excel at methodical play like Duck Hunt who is ranked highly on that site's rank pooling would surely fit a region's play style. Hell, that in turn could lead to Little Mac being somewhere higher than in other regions who bumrush with him. Really curious about their and other region's opinions on characters and their reasons for them.

 

[Trifroze]

Either way, yay, 3 more frames off uair/fair/dair/bair and 2 off nair on Marth confirmed.

I actually wish. A Smash game where Marth isn't top 10 feels wrong, and that would honestly probably fix that, although I can't say I have really looked into Marth's problems in this game. I guess he's also lacking the dthrow thing. And dancing blade...still doesn't work.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Actually, Wario and Roy are tied. So they're both 3rd in this case.

theyre not

 

[Cassio]

Everyone cares about the Japanese tier list because it's done a decent job predicting buffs and nerfs.

 

[UberMadman]

theyre not

Their aerial speed is both 1.21, unless my information is mistaken.

 

[Meru.]

I know that some of ESAM's opinions are weird, bu have you guys SEEN the latest Japanese tier list? Apparently Donkey Kong is the worst character in the game and Mewtwo is a B tier.

This is not the latest Japanese tier list. I have no idea what it is myself. I mean, it's definitely a tier list but it doesn't clearly say who made it, whose opinion it represent and how he ranked them. It only says that based the rankings of the SHI-G rankings (the "official" Japanese rankings), tier lists from abroad (no idea which ones he's talking about), the 2-chan rankings (Japanese 4chan), results of every (lol?) tournament, and everybody's comments. He's also asking everybody's comments in order to improve the rankings. On top of that it's a tier list of For Glory rules, so only Final Destination/Omega stages, even though every Japanese tournament also uses Battle, Smashville and Town and City. This really doesn't sounds like a reliable tier list to me.

The SHI-G tier list is what should be referred to as the official Japanese tier list since it is composed by a few good players. I have no idea exactly whose opinions are included, but I am a 100% sure that not every top player's opinion is included and that even to this list a few not that great players have contributed as well. This list should be taken with a grain of salt as there's a lot of stuff that many Japanese players won't agree on. Nonetheless, it's the closest you can get to an official Japanese tier list, and most Japanese would agree with the big picture.

edit: apparently everybody can create an article on this site. Apparently the guy who created this is just a random dude whose article happened to get popular. For some reason.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is in 27th huh?

See Sakurai? We really need a frame 8 grab, or make N-Air actually autocancel from a short hop fast fall, or make Up-Smash come out on frame 9.

We need because we're baaaaaad~

(More like terribly average because 27th is like, pretty much right in the middle lol)

Also if Duck Hunt ends up actually nerfed because of this I'm going to cry.

 

[UberMadman]

This is not the latest Japanese tier list. I have no idea what it is myself. I mean, it's definitely a tier list but it doesn't clearly say who made it, whose opinion it represent and how he ranked them. It only says that based the rankings of the SHI-G rankings (the "official" Japanese rankings), tier lists from abroad (no idea which ones he's talking about), the 2-chan rankings (Japanese 4chan), results of every (lol?) tournament, and everybody's comments. He's also asking everybody's comments in order to improve the rankings. On top of that it's a tier list of For Glory rules, so only Final Destination/Omega stages, even though every Japanese tournament also uses Battle, Smashville and Town and City. This really doesn't sounds like a reliable tier list to me.

The SHI-G tier list is what should be referred to as the official Japanese tier list since it is composed by a few good players. I have no idea exactly whose opinions are included, but I am a 100% sure that not every top player's opinion is included and that even to this list a few not that great players have contributed as well. This list should be taken with a grain of salt as there's a lot of stuff that many Japanese players won't agree on. Nonetheless, it's the closest you can get to an official Japanese tier list, and most Japanese would agree with the big picture.

Yeah, I have to admit that the lower rankings seemed waaaay too weird for top player input to have been contributed. Oh well, thanks for your insight.

 

[Man Li Gi]

If the tier list is true and trends continue, Ganondorf, Ike, and DK will get buffs. I cannot express how much the possibility makes me glee. Please people keep saying they suck so we thrive off the patches.