Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[DaRkJaWs]

The only thing I can think of is the acceleration DK has to go through if he still has momentum from being sent to the blast zone. So I guess B reversing will use that momentum in your favor.

Am I correct?

The acceleration of the b reverse plays a big part yes, but also it mixes up his recovery preventing it from being so predictable, especially in those matchups where their offensive weapons offstage can get you gimped. Also allows DK to go deeper offstage than anyone else to kill someone, and safely recover with a b reversed up b.

And actually a small correction. You don't get acceleration from being blasted, it has to be your own movement that allows one to do a b reverse. You also have to wait for any animation from other moves to end before doing it, for those that want a to try as a result of me posting this.

 

[Planty]

Does anybody know why DK has 4 different spikes when his recovery doesn't actually allow him to go more than 3 inches below the ledge? It makes absolutely no sense. How is he supposed to use those spikes? If his recovery had vertical range, 4 spikes would KINDA make sense, but even then it's overkill.

How much better could DK be if some of those spikes were reworked into good attacks?

 

[Smog Frog]

I think Luigi and Falcon, while both being good characters, work a lot better in mid to high level environments because they both have a major weakness (recovery) that gets exploited a lot more at the top level. Ness is starting to feel it as well, and this sometimes results in considerable differences of opinion regarding their tier placing. I remember back in like December making a post about how exploitable weaknesses will get magnified as the meta develops. Some recoveries are just so linear that the character will die 90% of the time they get thrown offstage, however some people just don't go for it or aren't experienced enough to seal the deal in these cases. Imagine the difference in performance when a Ness dies more than half the time he gets thrown offstage vs when Ness gets back for free every time. We're easily talking a difference of an entire tier / about 5-10 placings.

Also in the case of all these characters, especially Luigi, avoiding being grabbed is relatively easy if you really build your gameplan around that. If you don't, he can seem straight up overwhelming.

EDIT: Also that tier list is apparently some sort of a mash-up of tier lists from several different sites/communities.

i cant really see dropping that far if people begin to exploit his recovery. it may put him definitively below top 5 but thats really about it. his recovery is already being taken advantage of(is doing it and dabuz thinks the mu is only -1 for ) at top level and mains are making top 8 consistently at big events(shaky 7th at ceo, fow 7th at evo) so really he doesnt do that much worse at top level play. and however, are getting notably poor results for how hyped up they are. it may be because their recoveries are exploitable, but i think the causes for them getting poor results lies elsewhere.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Does anybody know why DK has 4 different spikes when his recovery doesn't actually allow him to go more than 3 inches below the ledge? It makes absolutely no sense. How is he supposed to use those spikes? If his recovery had vertical range, 4 spikes would KINDA make sense, but even then it's overkill.

How much better could DK be if some of those spikes were reworked into good attacks?

All 4 spikes work well and actually with two of them (he can go well below "3 inches", and without a short hop off the stage either, and make it back every time without dying. You just don't know what he's capable of doing yet. All 4 spikes are useful as well.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Does anybody know why DK has 4 different spikes when his recovery doesn't actually allow him to go more than 3 inches below the ledge? It makes absolutely no sense. How is he supposed to use those spikes? If his recovery had vertical range, 4 spikes would KINDA make sense, but even then it's overkill.

How much better could DK be if some of those spikes were reworked into good attacks?

You do NOT want DK to have a good vertical recovery. His Dair is one of the most powerful spikes in the game, capable of killing at as low as 5%. Why? Because DK isn't using it in the drop zone. He's full hopping it. He's double jumping to catch an airdodge with it. He's using it from up high. It's a balance factor.
His spikes are better for combos. For example, cargo utrow -> Dair spike is a true combo on Fox, Falcon, and Sheik at 0%. On almost every character cargo uthrow -> Fair is a true combo, just not the spike hitbox.
As for his side special, it's not strong enough to be useful at any reasonable percent. And the hitbox is small. And it's slow. Don't use it.

And finally, aerial Down B is among the greatest disrespect tools in the game.

 

[Luigi player]

Does anybody know why DK has 4 different spikes when his recovery doesn't actually allow him to go more than 3 inches below the ledge? It makes absolutely no sense. How is he supposed to use those spikes? If his recovery had vertical range, 4 spikes would KINDA make sense, but even then it's overkill.

How much better could DK be if some of those spikes were reworked into good attacks?

Imo it's not that much of a problem for him. It's more that these spikes are just useless themselves.

SideB spike is super weak and really slow. Why would you ever use it as a spike? It has other uses anyway.
Although you could sideB away from the ledge while being in range to ledgegrab so that you cancel it immediately while putting a hitbox out there. But still, why would you do this? Bair would be much better, or even fair.

Fair is pretty decent.

Dair is kinda bad. It's hard to connect with the spike hitbox and the move is kinda slow. Often I just hit with the other hitbox that knocks them away. It's mostly a threat, but it's not too great of a move, imo.

And then theres aerial DownB. Which is one of the worst moves ever. Takes forever to startup and forever to end. It can work in DK dittos sometimes, and maybe you can use it to Breverse to avoid juggles a little, but as a spike it's pretty useless (and it's gernerally really bad). I mean, it's nice that he can use it in the air, but it doesn't really make that much of a difference, since they made it so bad.

So you basically have fair as a spike, which is a pretty decent move. Dair can work sometimes, the others are almost always useless, but the moves have other uses (grounded downB and sideB to burry someone), so it's not like he's supposed to spike people with all of them.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

EDIT: ^^dont listen to this guy, let him have that opinion but don't take it seriously.

Side b is good right at the ledge, try b reversing it right on there so you spike with it AND grab the ledge right after that, allowing you to follow up with a down air especially if they went low enough to where it comes out before their up b recovery does

 

[Planty]

You do NOT want DK to have a good vertical recovery. His Dair is one of the most powerful spikes in the game, capable of killing at as low as 5%. Why? Because DK isn't using it in the drop zone. He's full hopping it. He's double jumping to catch an airdodge with it. He's using it from up high. It's a balance factor.
His spikes are better for combos. For example, cargo utrow -> Dair spike is a true combo on Fox, Falcon, and Sheik at 0%. On almost every character cargo uthrow -> Fair is a true combo, just not the spike hitbox.
As for his side special, it's not strong enough to be useful at any reasonable percent. And the hitbox is small. And it's slow. Don't use it.

And finally, aerial Down B is among the greatest disrespect tools in the game.

How would you set up a Dair spike so high up? And wouldn't you prefer a standard Fair or a safer Dair in exchange for losing the spike? Or is spiking such an important aspect of DK's game?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Ughhh I swear listening to other DK mains or secondaries who haven't actually mastered DK yet is one of the most annoying things I have to deal with in all of smash.

 

[CommanderRin]

Ughhh I swear listening to other DK mains or secondaries who haven't actually mastered DK yet is one of the most annoying things I have to deal with in all of smash.

Cargo throw buffs were terrible
-Pocket DK

Jk, but Down B spike is the best thing. Though from what I've seen, there are better things then spikes for DK

 

[Planty]

Ughhh I swear listening to other DK mains or secondaries who haven't actually mastered DK yet is one of the most annoying things I have to deal with in all of smash.

I'm so so sorry I asked a question. Can you ever find it in your heart to forgive me? Or am I too terrible of a person?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Cargo throw buffs were terrible
-Pocket DK

Jk, but Down B spike is the best thing. Though from what I've seen, there are better things then spikes for DK

They are used in different situations, in 95% of situations they are not substitutes for one another. I haven't saved any replays yet on this patch but I tell you guys what, I'm going to play my brothers pikachu tonight after he gets back from work and I'm going to highlight all of dks tools in it, showing you what DK can do and how he can handle what many ppl believe to be one of his worst matchups, pikachu. I'll upload the replays here .

I'm so so sorry I asked a question. Can you ever find it in your heart to forgive me? Or am I too terrible of a person?

I was mostly referring to another persons post but I'm speaking about the stuff I hear overall, not just the posts today.

 

[Luigi player]

EDIT: ^^dont listen to this guy, let him have that opinion but don't take it seriously.

Side b is good right at the ledge, try b reversing it right on there so you spike with it AND grab the ledge right after that, allowing you to follow up with a down air especially if they went low enough to where it comes out before their up b recovery does

You basically repeated the same thing I said with sideB, but is that really worth any use? I mean, it's not impossible that there's a scenario where it's a kinda safe option since you will ledgegrab right after, but the reward is like not there. Dair right after? Nice way to SD. Do you want to catch their upB with a doublejump dair? You're saying that like it works more than once in a blue moon.

You could just bair, which comes out 13 frames faster, has it's hitbox there like 10 frames instead of like 2, is 100 times easier to hit with and is gernerally much more rewarding than a sideB. If your opponent has a bad recovery he'd die either way. Though it might result in a KO against Bowser or DK. I don't know why they'd recover at ledgeheight though, and if they do, it would be much easier to just spike them with other moves which are easier to hit. They should usually recover from below the ledge or higher up against DK, since they're like begging to get spiked, bair'd or anything otherwise.

 

[RayNoire]

Imma just leave this here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

i cant really see dropping that far if people begin to exploit his recovery. it may put him definitively below top 5 but thats really about it. his recovery is already being taken advantage of(is doing it and dabuz thinks the mu is only -1 for ) at top level and mains are making top 8 consistently at big events(shaky 7th at ceo, fow 7th at evo) so really he doesnt do that much worse at top level play. and however, are getting notably poor results for how hyped up they are. it may be because their recoveries are exploitable, but i think the causes for them getting poor results lies elsewhere.

Unless dabuz changed his mind he hax the MU at -2.

 

[Smog Frog]

we'll find out then. @Dabuz can you clarify

 

[Planty]

So there's so many people saying that Mewtwo sucks because he's big and light, meaning he gets hit easily and dies early. But that's not reason enough to be bottom tier is it? Fox gets comboed hard because of his fall speed and he's super light (Not to mention dead offstage), but he gets put in top tier. How does that work?

I get that Mewtwo isn't Fox, but he's still not THAT bad. He has a good projectile, good tilts, an alright combo game, a reflector, he can escape certain combos because he's so floaty and his recovery is amazing, on top of having amazing killpower. How is Mewtwo a bottom 5 character?

 

[David Viran]

Same with Bouncing Fish. Extremely easy to punish on spot dodge (smash attack) and air dodge (Back air).

If you whiff a flip kick off stage you could easily die from just how much end lag it has. You can punish it with an AD as well but get to hit with an aerial or ground move of your choice.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

So, Esam's tier list had quite a few interesting placements (Yoshi at 7th, robin at 17th, Diddy at 18th) and he said some other interesting things in the comments section, such as Marth being 34th and Roy being around the 21st-24th range. I think it might warrant some discussion.

 

[TriTails]

So there's so many people saying that Mewtwo sucks because he's big and light, meaning he gets hit easily and dies early. But that's not reason enough to be bottom tier is it? Fox gets comboed hard because of his fall speed and he's super light (Not to mention dead offstage), but he gets put in top tier. How does that work?

I get that Mewtwo isn't Fox, but he's still not THAT bad. He has a good projectile, good tilts, an alright combo game, a reflector, he can escape certain combos because he's so floaty and his recovery is amazing, on top of having amazing killpower. How is Mewtwo a bottom 5 character?

Because he is big and light and floaty.

Also. IDK if being floaty = Less combos. I have always find Kirby to be very comboable from Luigi's D-throw combos. Might be different with Mewtwo tho.

 

[Smog Frog]

different combos work on different characters. a combo may work on a floaty but not on a fast faller(though a rule of thumb is that if you're a fastfaller you're combo food)

an example would be dthrow->knee being as easy as uair->knee on but no one else.

 

[meleebrawler]

So there's so many people saying that Mewtwo sucks because he's big and light, meaning he gets hit easily and dies early. But that's not reason enough to be bottom tier is it? Fox gets comboed hard because of his fall speed and he's super light (Not to mention dead offstage), but he gets put in top tier. How does that work?

I get that Mewtwo isn't Fox, but he's still not THAT bad. He has a good projectile, good tilts, an alright combo game, a reflector, he can escape certain combos because he's so floaty and his recovery is amazing, on top of having amazing killpower. How is Mewtwo a bottom 5 character?

People feel that Mewtwo just doesn't get enough reward for his fragility. He's definitely not terrible since even the "worst" characters in this game have redeeming qualities that let them compete, but compared to most his strengths don't really overcome his weaknesses making him comparatively weak.

For the record Smash wiki actually thinks Mewtwo was overall nerfed from Melee, which if you ask me is a load of bull****. The only true nerf is his lighter weight and the loss of Shadow Ball charging hitbox, the loss of Melee combos and lower damage on some of his moves is pretty universal among the cast of Smash 4. Hitbox issues aside, all of his moves function properly (looking mainly at confusion and disable here). His smashes hit with the force they're supposed to, as does Shadow Ball, and the strength of his KO throws are mostly intact.

Some like to rag about his misleading hitboxes but in practice they don't affect the performances of people who put practice into him that much, save for fsmash blindspot.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ NachoOfCheese @ P Planty @ Luigi player
I really don't know you guys pay DaRkJaWs any heed. He always goes around saying to DKS that no one has mastered him or something to that jist. Then if you argue, you find yourself within ad nauseam and ad infinitum.

Specifically for planty: he only needs 2 spikes with dair and heabutt. If fair was changed to something legit and Air Hand Slap was changed to the clap he had in Ramble Blast.....then DK would be scary. Headbutt as a spike is just pitiful, but since it can auto grab edge and break shields, well it has its uses (not really for spikes). Can't tell you how many times I've crushed dreams by punish shielding on a platform/edge only for their hearts to get shattered. It's awesome

 

[Planty]

People feel that Mewtwo just doesn't get enough reward for his fragility. He's definitely not terrible since even the "worst" characters in this game have redeeming qualities that let them compete, but compared to most his strengths don't really overcome his weaknesses making him comparatively weak.

Well that explains it pretty well. Much better than the previous "he's big, light, and floaty".

Also @ TriTails
Floaty characters are much more difficult to combo than fastfallers, simply because fastfallers fall into stuff. For example, Rosalina can do an up-throw to jab on Fox at low %, because he falls so fast. However, it's impossible for her to do the classic up-throw to U-tilt on Jiggs or Kirby.

Fastfallers also have a more difficult time escaping multihitting jabs.

I can't think of a single combo that works on floaty characters but not on fastfallers. It's been like this in every smash game.

 

[Djent]

Unless dabuz changed his mind he hax the MU at -2.

Yeah but IIRC he's of the mind that "-2" = "60:40"
Imprecise numbering system #1 = imprecise numbering system #2. I'm sure that clarifies everything.

 

[Sir Tundra]

So there's so many people saying that Mewtwo sucks because he's big and light, meaning he gets hit easily and dies early. But that's not reason enough to be bottom tier is it? Fox gets comboed hard because of his fall speed and he's super light (Not to mention dead offstage), but he gets put in top tier. How does that work?

I get that Mewtwo isn't Fox, but he's still not THAT bad. He has a good projectile, good tilts, an alright combo game, a reflector, he can escape certain combos because he's so floaty and his recovery is amazing, on top of having amazing killpower. How is Mewtwo a bottom 5 character?

hmm let's see... well fox is really fast, has a very good neutral game, has a very good punish game, lethal combos, good approaches, and a crap ton of kill setups. so all of those more then make up for his flaws.

while mewtwo may have a good combo, a reflector that can help him recover and a decent projectile but none of those help when he has such a huge weakness of being really tall and very light. mewtwo's moveset is mostly focused on being a zoner meaning he'll mostly just zone out the opponent with tilts and projectiles meaning a good combo game isn't as important.

I wouldn't say mewtwo is bottom 5 since that's kind of debateable but I'd defintly say he's in the lower half of the cast.

If only he was heavier and had throw combos.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well that explains it pretty well. Much better than the previous "he's big, light, and floaty".

Also @ TriTails
Floaty characters are much more difficult to combo than fastfallers, simply because fastfallers fall into stuff. For example, Rosalina can do an up-throw to jab on Fox at low %, because he falls so fast. However, it's impossible for her to do the classic up-throw to U-tilt on Jiggs or Kirby.

Fastfallers also have a more difficult time escaping multihitting jabs.

I can't think of a single combo that works on floaty characters but not on fastfallers. It's been like this in every smash game.

I think I've heard that Luigi's dthrow to cyclone works better on floaties but I'm not sure.

 

[TriTails]

Also @ TriTails
Floaty characters are much more difficult to combo than fastfallers, simply because fastfallers fall into stuff. For example, Rosalina can do an up-throw to jab on Fox at low %, because he falls so fast. However, it's impossible for her to do the classic up-throw to U-tilt on Jiggs or Kirby.

Fastfallers also have a more difficult time escaping multihitting jabs.

I can't think of a single combo that works on floaty characters but not on fastfallers. It's been like this in every smash game.

IIRC Luigi's triple F-airs are possible on floaties but not fast-fallers (You get a regrab instead) [Assuming they don't DI].

 

[Planty]

while mewtwo may have a good combo, a reflector that can help him recover and a decent projectile but none of those help when he has such a huge weakness of being really tall and very light. mewtwo's moveset is mostly focused on being a zoner meaning he'll mostly just zone out the opponent with tilts and projectiles meaning a good combo game isn't as important.

That's what my original post was about: The reason being big and light is bad is because everything hits you and you die early. However, being a fastfaller and light leads to the exact same thing: you get comboed super hard, meaning everything hits you and you die early. Can you tell me if there's some sort of huge difference between the two? (and TBH, I'd rather be super big and floaty than be a super fastfaller. At least the floatiness helps you escape some stuff.)

We already have Fox showing that being very susceptible to damage and dying early isn't necessarily crippling (and Rosalina too, but she's special). So throwing Mewtwo in bottom 5 like many people are doing JUST because he's big and light makes no sense at all. He is bottom half though, I will agree there.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

@ NachoOfCheese @ P Planty @ Luigi player
I really don't know you guys pay DaRkJaWs any heed. He always goes around saying to DKS that no one has mastered him or something to that jist. Then if you argue, you find yourself within ad nauseam and ad infinitum.

Specifically for planty: he only needs 2 spikes with dair and heabutt. If fair was changed to something legit and Air Hand Slap was changed to the clap he had in Ramble Blast.....then DK would be scary. Headbutt as a spike is just pitiful, but since it can auto grab edge and break shields, well it has its uses (not really for spikes). Can't tell you how many times I've crushed dreams dye to eone shielding on a platform/edge only for their hearts to get shattered. It's awesome

SH double Bair a lot without mixing it up, then BAM. Headbutt that fool's shield. The move is actually very good but as a spike? Nah. And using the edge to cancel it is something I have to incorporate into my gameplay more.
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DK's offstage game is really good, but not for his spikes (leave that to Falcon / Yoshi). It's because of his Bair, Nair, and (I've been using this a lot recently) the first hit of up B. Seriously, that horizontal knockback is a killer and get this: it's a frame 4 move. With invincibility on frame 3-6. Oh and the hitbox is huge.
In general his offstage game is important in many matchups (Looking at you ).

 

[Kaladin]

That's what my original post was about: The reason being big and light is bad is because everything hits you and you die early. However, being a fastfaller and light leads to the exact same thing: you get comboed super hard, meaning everything hits you and you die early. Can you tell me if there's some sort of huge difference between the two? (and TBH, I'd rather be super big and floaty than be a super fastfaller. At least the floatiness helps you escape some stuff.)

We already have Fox showing that being very susceptible to damage and dying early isn't necessarily crippling (and Rosalina too, but she's special). So throwing Mewtwo in bottom 5 like many people are doing because he's big and light makes no sense at all. He is bottom half though, I will agree there.

It's not *just* tall, light, and floaty (TLF from here on). It's TLF with a questionable neutral, difficulty hitting small characters, and having a sub standard disadvantage state. He's, surprisingly, pretty yummy combo food for the likes of Pika and MK, due to his large frame, while he can't return it or answer their neutral, and he can't kill nearly early enough to make up for it. He doesn't even have good damage per hit like Ganon. TLF is just one factor in the **** pile that is mew2.

 

[Planty]

It's not *just* tall, light, and floaty (TLF from here on). It's TLF with a questionable neutral, difficulty hitting small characters, and having a sub standard disadvantage state. He's, surprisingly, pretty yummy combo food for the likes of Pika and MK, due to his large frame, while he can't return it or answer their neutral, and he can't kill nearly early enough to make up for it. He doesn't even have good damage per hit like Ganon. TLF is just one factor in the **** pile that is mew2.

His neutral isn't THAT bad. He's got a few good spacing tools.

I'm just trying to show that Mewtwo isn't garbage because of TLF like many people think.

 

[Zionaze]

Whats the most optimal combination? Fastfaller, floaty, tall, short, light, heavy.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

nobody has mastered DK. until they mastered b reversing all of his specials (every single one of them can be b reversed/wavebounced), they haven't mastered him. Saying that it's pointless to b reverse them is an absurd comment to make by the same people who have never purposely b reversed his moves. This patch had uploading to youtube be a thing right? I'll upload matches so you can stop denying the obvious reality, @ Man Li Gi

@ NachoOfCheese you are definitely right about DK's up b first hit being a very good move, and I've killed so many people with it...the only problem is that you don't want the other hits to also get in...so what's the best way to guarantee this not happen? B reversing

Also, about Mewtwo...I definitely would not call him garbage because he has strings that you can pull off and you can make him into a very solid character vs. much of the cast....the only he issue he does have his is weight, if he was just barely heavier he'd be a solid mid tier character for sure.

 

[Man Li Gi]

SH double Bair a lot without mixing it up, then BAM. Headbutt that fool's shield. The move is actually very good but as a spike? Nah. And using the edge to cancel it is something I have to incorporate into my gameplay more.
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DK's offstage game is really good, but not for his spikes (leave that to Falcon / Yoshi). It's because of his Bair, Nair, and (I've been using this a lot recently) the first hit of up B. Seriously, that horizontal knockback is a killer and get this: it's a frame 4 move. With invincibility on frame 3-6. Oh and the hitbox is huge.
In general his offstage game is important in many matchups (Looking at you ).

Not trying to sound pretentious or nothing, but I do most of those already. You can frame trap opponents by nair then up b. This works best on fragile recoveries. If they live, rinse and repeat.

I don't normally do SH double bair normally (18 frames landing lag is yuck to me). Normally I do bair max spaced (no shield grab can get you then) then fsmash on their failed shield grab attempt (or whatever punish seems appropriate). It works best on the edge as almost everyone shields then grabs on edge for some reason. This is why PP Bairs are important to learn (same with RAR Bair).

 

[Kaladin]

Whats the most optimal combination? Fastfaller, floaty, tall, short, light, heavy.

Hmm. I think what Wario has is pretty close to optimal. Heavy, really good airspeed, not floaty, but not combo food either. Of course, the smaller the better.

 

[meleebrawler]

Whats the most optimal combination? Fastfaller, floaty, tall, short, light, heavy.

Well it's always better to be short since it makes you harder to hit period (and doesn't necessarily correlate with range *cough* *cough* ). Heavy may make you more susceptible to early combos but is ultimately more favourable for letting you live longer (especially in this game with rage).

Floaty vs. fastfaller though, each have their pros and cons.

Fastfaller pros: more efficient at juggles due to refreshing jumps faster, reset to neutral faster upon successful evasion, added resistance to vertical KOs.

Fastfaller cons: more vulnerable to true combos, inhibits recovery.

Floaty pros: more recovery time, more difficult to true combo, can use more aerials in sequence.

Floaty cons: vulnerable to vertical KOs, need more time to reset to neutral.

Though, you also have to consider things like air speed and number of jumps.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

nobody has mastered DK. until they mastered b reversing all of his specials

This is a lie. Fundamentals > Everything else. If you master fundamentals you have mastered the game. No amount of B reversing will change that.

 

[san.]

B-reversing is fundamental though, otherwise, what do you mean by fundamentals?

I think of them as global options available to every character that may have practical use and tech skill requirements.

 

[CommanderRin]

I feel like the game is more about personality than anything else. It doesn't take long at all for someone to get even remotely adept at the gameplay. I find this more of a test of confidence (in your character) and mind-set/winning image.

Not to say that fundamentals aren't important tho