- Joined
- Sep 6, 2010
- Messages
- 3,655
- NNID
- WarioLand
I'm not sure if more Ike buffs is something to celebrate about at this point.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
- Status
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I think soon Ike will be 1st and Japan will still place him in bottom tier lol.
Campy Rosalina doesn't necessarily need to go away. In some matchups, that's the most optimal playstyle. For example, against Fox, you want to stay at long-mid range-ish. From there you just have to stop all his ground approaches with jab or D-tilt, and his aerial approaches with U-tilt or U-smash. If he doesn't want to approach, you can easily pressure im by advancing Luma with jabs and starbits. If he starts shooting lasers, you're in range to dash attack or U-smash. You have absolutely no reason to play aggressively and rushdown when being campy is so much easier and more effective. It's like that in many other matchups too. Not just against Fox.
It's mistaken. I remember testing this and finding Roy's top speed to be faster in the air.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
rip in peace ZSS' back air that is frame 8 has more range than Sheik's kills at 120% and is combined with the character who has the best ledgetrump game and top 5 aerial speed
Really though I wouldn't be mad as long as Luigi gets the same treatment. Dthrow to bair near the ledge is d u m b.
Since people are speaking of patches what would be the definitive nerfs that Sheik needs to lose her prominence? I'd presume they just keep taking off decimals off of fair until it does sub 1%, but I'd like to see grounded bouncing fish being turned into a hard commitment (having to land after hitting with it) and grounded needles travelling a bit slower, slightly shorter distance and having a few more frames of endlag. Then maybe remove the windbox and hitbox from the end of vanish and give it a bit more landing lag. Also return fair to what it used to be after 1.0.4 but make it have more endlag so you can't autocancel it off of basically any height and so that comboing fair into fair out of a shorthop is less consistent.
Really though I wouldn't be mad as long as Luigi gets the same treatment. Dthrow to bair near the ledge is d u m b.
Since people are speaking of patches what would be the definitive nerfs that Sheik needs to lose her prominence? I'd presume they just keep taking off decimals off of fair until it does sub 1%, but I'd like to see grounded bouncing fish being turned into a hard commitment (having to land after hitting with it) and grounded needles travelling a bit slower, slightly shorter distance and having a few more frames of endlag. Then maybe remove the windbox and hitbox from the end of vanish and give it a bit more landing lag. Also return fair to what it used to be after 1.0.4 but make it have more endlag so you can't autocancel it off of basically any height and so that comboing fair into fair out of a shorthop is less consistent.
CommanderRin
Smash Journeyman
I'm thinking that needle nerfs would be enough to tone her down tbh. I wonder if it would be possible to slow down projectile speed a little or give it a more prominent visual cue that aids opponents in reacting to them.
Last edited:
CommanderRin
Smash Journeyman
What would change if first few needles had properties similar to Fox's blaster?
zeldasmash
Smash Lord
Mewtwo in the B-tier section..........i think i know why Mewtwo basically didn't get anything in the previous patch.
As much as i don't like the character, Lucina being Bottom 3 is just bullocks; in fact most of the bottom tiers are completely unjustified: Ike at 50th (for god sakes, if this keeps up he's gonna be Top 5 over here), Marth at 47th, Donkey Kong as the worst, Charizard at 48th despite being improved in the last patch, Roy being FAAR to low (below Robin...). And there are other questionable placings like Olimar being far too low, Little Mac being too high, the Bowser family being a bit too high, Ganondorf being too high (yeah he got buffs, but that high?), Dedede too high, ect.
This list is just all kinds of wrong.
As much as i don't like the character, Lucina being Bottom 3 is just bullocks; in fact most of the bottom tiers are completely unjustified: Ike at 50th (for god sakes, if this keeps up he's gonna be Top 5 over here), Marth at 47th, Donkey Kong as the worst, Charizard at 48th despite being improved in the last patch, Roy being FAAR to low (below Robin...). And there are other questionable placings like Olimar being far too low, Little Mac being too high, the Bowser family being a bit too high, Ganondorf being too high (yeah he got buffs, but that high?), Dedede too high, ect.
This list is just all kinds of wrong.
David Viran
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2014
- Messages
- 1,500
ZSS's Bair is stronger than luigis and zss has dthrow Bair as well.
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 14,629
For one, no knockback and it would always do less damage than Fox's at max range and at close range. Sheik's Needles do 1.9% close up and 1.2% far while Fox's does 3% close, 2% mid-range, and 1.4% far. It would also be hilariously punishable since Sheik can't act until frame 48 while Fox can act at frame 39. I think Fox's Blaster also has slightly more range.
This is why I suggested set knockback like Falco's Blaster for 1-2 Needle while 3-6 Needles do their normal Sheik Needles thing. 1 Needle doing regular knockback is kind of stupid since it lifts you up slightly forcing you to have to land before you do anything which is ample time for Sheik at range to Needle you again, again, and again if she wants to be an *** or start something else.
Last edited:
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
That's true, although it doesn't seem as reliable and getting grabs with ZSS is much harder than with Luigi. Also her bair goes over some short crouches and in general is harder to connect (and has a deadzone). I wonder if they take this stuff into account when making modifications.
David Viran
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2014
- Messages
- 1,500
It's actually pretty reliable but the only player I see use it is nairo. Also her bair is safer on sheild and can still hit a crouching Pikachu while having more range.
Last edited:
kenniky
Smash Master
Abadango? And Rain placed 9th.
outfoxd
Smash Ace
Abadango. 4th or something.
Oh, alright. It just didn't feel like their players had that big a presence.
Unflinching needles would be good. She really doesn't require a projectile with hitstun, it's basically icing on the cake at this point.
She can keep her stupid Fair chains, but i wouldn't mind seeing certain moves like bouncing fish give freefall (or at least restrict more movement) on wiff. Don't have to remove the hitbox from vanish, but FFS if it's close enough to actually be blocked on recovery i feel like i should be able to punish her with anything short of a falcon punch.
Unflinching needles would be good. She really doesn't require a projectile with hitstun, it's basically icing on the cake at this point.
Last edited:
Aenglaan
Smash Apprentice
Japan must really be radically different in play style. I mean, DK, Roy, and Ike are bellow Mewtwo and near the bottom. Either that, or there is something about Mewtwo we don't know about.
Illuminose
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2015
- Messages
- 671
I don't really get why people think that needles need such huge nerfs. Needles already have a lot of end lag and very minimal shield stun. There's 28 frames between when she throws her last needle (with a full set of needles) and can act again. Spamming single needles or a few needles is not efficient at all because throwing single needles isn't that useful until they send them into tumble, which isn't generally until ~110%, and there's more lag. Needles take time to recharge and have a pretty free punish unless you're like half a stage away. You can even punish on hit at lower percents. Needle zoning is good and can be oppressive, but it's not some impenetrable thing. It wouldn't mind for needles to get 2-3 frames more end lag so that people shut up about them, but needles already do have a significant amount of end lag. So much so that you can throw certain projectiles and hit her for throwing needles at you, which tends to be a biased trade because needles don't even do that much damage.
Part of the counterplay for needles is that you have to realize that you can bait needles. You can jump, you can read them and use a reflector (if you have one), you can crouch if you have a low crouch, you can shield, and you can spot dodge on a read/expectation. Sheik can obviously read or otherwise counterplay those options, but you have to make it clear to the Sheik that you are going to trick them up and make landing needles harder, which in turn makes needles less of a threat. If you show that you understand your options to avoid getting hit by needles, I have to respect them and be smarter with my needle tosses. Furthermore, you should not be scared of needles at low percent until she has a full set. You can keep moving and even punish them on hit depending on how close you are. Until you're above like 100%, Sheik throwing low amounts of needles should not scare you that much anyways. If you have certain projectiles, you can even beat out or get a favorable trade against needles. If you have a chargeable projectile, use platforms to help you charge it or get out of needles range. Something that happens to people is that they don't realize that Sheik can cancel her needle charge and then almost instantly transition into grabbing them or something, which people fall for all the time. You have to respect her options in this scenario and be prepared for them to land a punish or not get hit.
I don't really think that end lag is an appropriate nerf for needles. There's already quite a bit of end lag. I think that reducing KBG by 10 or 15 is a more appropriate nerf, which would give needles less knockback at higher percent and in turn send opponents into tumble later on as opposed to ~110%.
There's that and there's also this whole idea that Sheik wins every matchup in the game really hard, no one can compete with her, etc etc which is inaccurate and super scrubby. She doesn't win every matchup super hard and players can play a lot better against her. She goes even with characters like MK, Kirby, Pikachu, Lucario (prolly a -1 vs Lucario actually), G&W...and so many characters can do this matchup fine. Fox, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Wario, ZSS, Villager, Toon Link, Sonic, Ryu, Rosalina, Mario, Marth, and Peach are working with like 55:45 losing matchups, some able to even push the matchup to even. DK (after the most recent patch) and Pit can also do this matchup. Mr ConCon is actually confident that he can learn Luigi vs Sheik and potentially do the matchup. He has wins vs players like K9 and VoiD, who are talented Sheik players. People are waaaaay to hyperbolic when they talk about Sheik.
Part of the counterplay for needles is that you have to realize that you can bait needles. You can jump, you can read them and use a reflector (if you have one), you can crouch if you have a low crouch, you can shield, and you can spot dodge on a read/expectation. Sheik can obviously read or otherwise counterplay those options, but you have to make it clear to the Sheik that you are going to trick them up and make landing needles harder, which in turn makes needles less of a threat. If you show that you understand your options to avoid getting hit by needles, I have to respect them and be smarter with my needle tosses. Furthermore, you should not be scared of needles at low percent until she has a full set. You can keep moving and even punish them on hit depending on how close you are. Until you're above like 100%, Sheik throwing low amounts of needles should not scare you that much anyways. If you have certain projectiles, you can even beat out or get a favorable trade against needles. If you have a chargeable projectile, use platforms to help you charge it or get out of needles range. Something that happens to people is that they don't realize that Sheik can cancel her needle charge and then almost instantly transition into grabbing them or something, which people fall for all the time. You have to respect her options in this scenario and be prepared for them to land a punish or not get hit.
I don't really think that end lag is an appropriate nerf for needles. There's already quite a bit of end lag. I think that reducing KBG by 10 or 15 is a more appropriate nerf, which would give needles less knockback at higher percent and in turn send opponents into tumble later on as opposed to ~110%.
There's that and there's also this whole idea that Sheik wins every matchup in the game really hard, no one can compete with her, etc etc which is inaccurate and super scrubby. She doesn't win every matchup super hard and players can play a lot better against her. She goes even with characters like MK, Kirby, Pikachu, Lucario (prolly a -1 vs Lucario actually), G&W...and so many characters can do this matchup fine. Fox, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Wario, ZSS, Villager, Toon Link, Sonic, Ryu, Rosalina, Mario, Marth, and Peach are working with like 55:45 losing matchups, some able to even push the matchup to even. DK (after the most recent patch) and Pit can also do this matchup. Mr ConCon is actually confident that he can learn Luigi vs Sheik and potentially do the matchup. He has wins vs players like K9 and VoiD, who are talented Sheik players. People are waaaaay to hyperbolic when they talk about Sheik.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
This makes a lot of sense now based on your posts.
You really shouldn't be dictating what are favorable ways to play if you've never even been to a tournament or even played against offline players (Not your playground group of friends). Wi-Fi and offline gameplay differs a great amount. I like the ambition, but if you do not understand the reason camping is a prevalent strategy then I don't know what tell you. Maybe try to differentiate between zoning and aiming to time someone out.
Last edited:
bc1910
Smash Lord
Sheik's Fair needs a sensible autocancel window. Nerfing needles is fine but doesn't fix the issue of Sheik slapping you around for the whole match. Needles and Fair are both in need of frame data tweaks but she's not too far off being balanced.
Oh and yeah I think by far the biggest balance problem with ZSS is how flip jump spike can be comboed into and kills at 50. Ugh just fix flip jump and she's perfect.
Japan's placement of Ike is ridiculous and he doesn't need to be better. Same goes for Greninja though, and I'd still welcome buffs so I can't blame the Ike mains.
Oh and yeah I think by far the biggest balance problem with ZSS is how flip jump spike can be comboed into and kills at 50. Ugh just fix flip jump and she's perfect.
Japan's placement of Ike is ridiculous and he doesn't need to be better. Same goes for Greninja though, and I'd still welcome buffs so I can't blame the Ike mains.
hypersonicJD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2015
- Messages
- 431
- NNID
- I don't have
- 3DS FC
- 2122-7467-7267
I really don't want to dictate anything though. Here they are far more experienced Sonic players than me and know what they are talking about. But I truly want to promote a more aggresive playstle since I have said it before, campy Sonic won't last too long in tourneys and maybe more players will have more respect for Sonic. Since i'm really really tired of watching: Sonic is OP, Sonic is for autistic people, is for ****, etc and etc. I really don't want to see those kind of comments and I would love to give the Sonic mains a little bit more respect. I don't think anyone enjoys being acused of being autistic, stupid, or dumb just for playing a character they like. Sure you can ignore it, but that won't resolve the problem. I'm really trying to change the meta game for Sonic, i'm not the best expert in the world in Sonic and maybe I shouldn't be talking so much. But at least I want to try and make my words be heard in a competitive scene. It may sound childish from me but I have dreamed of defeating Zero in EVO or a major tourney. Getting on the stage and protesting about people giving Sonic some hate even though the character and the players don't deserve it at all.
I understand why people on this thread will be rude with me and say to me: Be real man, campy Sonic will still be a thing, get over it, your dream won't come true bla bla bla. I can understand this because this is a tourney based thread. I really won't have much to apport. But at least I want some people to continue and defend the Blue Hedgehog. I seriously don't expect any motivational comment in here. I just wanted to tell why I keep trying to change the Sonic gameplay. Now I have respect for Seagull because he is playing to win a tourney, a tourney it's a really big thing and you want to be the best or just win the easiest way possible.
Anyways, if you want to give me a spam alert or something I don't mind at all. Because maybe I deserve it for just chasing a really stupid dream.
I understand why people on this thread will be rude with me and say to me: Be real man, campy Sonic will still be a thing, get over it, your dream won't come true bla bla bla. I can understand this because this is a tourney based thread. I really won't have much to apport. But at least I want some people to continue and defend the Blue Hedgehog. I seriously don't expect any motivational comment in here. I just wanted to tell why I keep trying to change the Sonic gameplay. Now I have respect for Seagull because he is playing to win a tourney, a tourney it's a really big thing and you want to be the best or just win the easiest way possible.
Anyways, if you want to give me a spam alert or something I don't mind at all. Because maybe I deserve it for just chasing a really stupid dream.
Zelder
Smash Journeyman
So, so many things I want to say, that will only end up with me getting infracted.
So instead, I will say that I actually agree with Illuminose. I don't think Shiek is as devastating as some people make her out to be. She doesn't have any losing match ups though, and that rubs me the wrong way. But I also wonder, if in a fighting game as unique as Smash, that the focus on mobility + speed doesn't inevitably create a top tier character that has no losing match ups.
So instead, I will say that I actually agree with Illuminose. I don't think Shiek is as devastating as some people make her out to be. She doesn't have any losing match ups though, and that rubs me the wrong way. But I also wonder, if in a fighting game as unique as Smash, that the focus on mobility + speed doesn't inevitably create a top tier character that has no losing match ups.
Whether or not a move has counterplay or weaknesses doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not she deserves to have the tool based on the rest of her moveset. It doesn't matter if they can be baited, or that they don't tumble you until %100+....she still has the option, and even worse, yet another option you're forced to respect. These are the things OP characters are made of.
Not to say they need to remove or destroy her needle game. But make them a bit more fair? Yeah, most definitely. There are other characters with far worse frame data then Shiek who have waaayy worse projectiles. (COUGH falco. COUGH)
I question JP tier lists because of the absurd placements some characters are getting. It's nearly as if they're playing a different game over there or something.
Last edited:
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
You guys don't know how to nerf Sheik. Watch and learn:
Bouncing Fish is called Bouncing Fish because it bounces! So it has to bounce on hit. The issue is the hitboxes are enormous. It has way too much range. The other issue is that the BF hitboxes last for 7 frames!! Air dodging something that lasts 7 frames is risky. Slightly decrease hitbox sizes and take 1 frame off each end of the hitbox duration. So it lasts 5 frames. Sheik mains will need to be a little more precise when edgeguarding with this so they'll adapt and get better. This is a good thing. (ZSS's Flip Jump has the same two issues so it should recieve the same two nerfs. That or it does 13% because it's way too strong).
Keep the wind box on Vanish because it makes sense but take away that annoying 6% hitbox that Sheik gets lucky with.
The less needles charged the less knockback sounds good and I'm okay with fixed knockback on no charge needles. Even fully charged needles could have a slight knockback growth nerf (aerial needles to BF will still work). But the end lag is already high enough and the range and unreactability make it unique. It was like this in other games, live with it. She is a ninja and ninjas throw things quickly and don't lag like crazy after doing it.
Back Air should do 8 and 9% instead of 7 and 8.
Fair will stay the same but get its autocancel nerfed only 4 frames (a couple other characters' attacks autocancel on frame 15 so Sheik's can match theirs but not be any less). Now Sheik mains have to choose, "do I land with the hitbox and take the 10 frames of landing lag or do I attack their heads and sheilds from above and (probably) autocancel it?"
-------------------------------------------
IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE:
But I have a different Fair in mind. Give Sheik something similar to her Melee Fair. Let it do 8%, have the same landing lag. Frame 15 autocancel if this doesn't turn out to be a nerf or keep it at 11 if this nerf is a real nerf. Her Melee Fair actually did have the same start-up and autocancel for what it's worth. So yeah 8% with let's say a 30 degree angle (it's currently 50 degrees) so it's almost like a semi spike (Marth's Dtilt is 30 degrees for comparison) and let it be more of a knockback growth move rather than base knockback (so harder for low % gimps). Tumble knockback after say 40-50% sounds good. But it'll kill from the middle of FD no rage at about 170% (with that angle it'll be a lot scarier at the ledge at lesser percents though) and rage won't affect it too much at lower percents due to less base knockback. With a 30 degree angle she can't chain Fairs well but it'll combo into BF and do decent damage by itself.
Bouncing Fish is called Bouncing Fish because it bounces! So it has to bounce on hit. The issue is the hitboxes are enormous. It has way too much range. The other issue is that the BF hitboxes last for 7 frames!! Air dodging something that lasts 7 frames is risky. Slightly decrease hitbox sizes and take 1 frame off each end of the hitbox duration. So it lasts 5 frames. Sheik mains will need to be a little more precise when edgeguarding with this so they'll adapt and get better. This is a good thing. (ZSS's Flip Jump has the same two issues so it should recieve the same two nerfs. That or it does 13% because it's way too strong).
Keep the wind box on Vanish because it makes sense but take away that annoying 6% hitbox that Sheik gets lucky with.
The less needles charged the less knockback sounds good and I'm okay with fixed knockback on no charge needles. Even fully charged needles could have a slight knockback growth nerf (aerial needles to BF will still work). But the end lag is already high enough and the range and unreactability make it unique. It was like this in other games, live with it. She is a ninja and ninjas throw things quickly and don't lag like crazy after doing it.
Back Air should do 8 and 9% instead of 7 and 8.
Fair will stay the same but get its autocancel nerfed only 4 frames (a couple other characters' attacks autocancel on frame 15 so Sheik's can match theirs but not be any less). Now Sheik mains have to choose, "do I land with the hitbox and take the 10 frames of landing lag or do I attack their heads and sheilds from above and (probably) autocancel it?"
-------------------------------------------
IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE:
But I have a different Fair in mind. Give Sheik something similar to her Melee Fair. Let it do 8%, have the same landing lag. Frame 15 autocancel if this doesn't turn out to be a nerf or keep it at 11 if this nerf is a real nerf. Her Melee Fair actually did have the same start-up and autocancel for what it's worth. So yeah 8% with let's say a 30 degree angle (it's currently 50 degrees) so it's almost like a semi spike (Marth's Dtilt is 30 degrees for comparison) and let it be more of a knockback growth move rather than base knockback (so harder for low % gimps). Tumble knockback after say 40-50% sounds good. But it'll kill from the middle of FD no rage at about 170% (with that angle it'll be a lot scarier at the ledge at lesser percents though) and rage won't affect it too much at lower percents due to less base knockback. With a 30 degree angle she can't chain Fairs well but it'll combo into BF and do decent damage by itself.
Last edited:
oh my god what no
Zelder
Smash Journeyman
If there's one thing I love, it's recommendations on how to nerf characters that the game developers will never see.
Jucchan
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 353
That tier list is not official in any way. It was made by one person, based on other tier lists and comments.
A low-angle, near instant aerial, with KB growth, 2% more damage than sweetspot pre-nerf, and no landing lag, that gets confirms off like literally everything, on a character that has no qualms about landing an Fair?
Call me crazy, but that sounds like a nigh Hoo Haa level buff. The shallow angle alone would let her gimp most characters earlier than she already can with even a little knockback.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
She can't land multiple Fairs (no more carrying across stage or Smashville 0-deaths) and it's weaker than the old Fair until you get into the high percents. Sheik can't combo into Fair at higher percents so no kill confirms with it. No way it's better than old Fair. Even if it was (which it isn't), add a couple frames of start-up and slightly nerf the autocancel window. Anything is better than current Fair.
This would actually severely hamper some MUs like Rosalina (and killing Luma), Olimar, and Luigi (there are many more than these 3) where they suck against Sheik almost entirely because of Fair.
Last edited:
Illuminose
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2015
- Messages
- 671
My guess is that a fair autocancel nerf won't happen if they haven't done already. Seems intended based on Sheik's design as a character and their inaction in touching the lag so far. It's also a dumb nerf. You could nerf the horizontal range a little bit though, which isn't a bad idea.
Bouncing fish is fine and you can air dodge it just fine. The only time air dodge really loses is if Sheik delays the bouncing fish which is a read and much higher commitment.
Don't really get why any nerfs outside slight horizontal decrease to fair range, decrease to needle kbg, and like 6 frames off the intangibility on vanish's start-up are needed. Unless you want Diddy-fy Sheik which is silly. I think fair is fine anyways but w/e.
Bouncing fish is fine and you can air dodge it just fine. The only time air dodge really loses is if Sheik delays the bouncing fish which is a read and much higher commitment.
Don't really get why any nerfs outside slight horizontal decrease to fair range, decrease to needle kbg, and like 6 frames off the intangibility on vanish's start-up are needed. Unless you want Diddy-fy Sheik which is silly. I think fair is fine anyways but w/e.
Last edited:
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
being even with is something I love. Don't really need to complain about her. Her bull**** isn't nearly as silly as other characters like .Dthrow>Adapt.
Last edited:
DaRkJaWs
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 429
- NNID
- Sharifi_shuffle
Most people don't know this and no DK other than myself utilizes it all the time, but DK's up B can be b reversed. So his recovery is better than this list would indicate, it's definitely better than Bowsers. In other words in a capable DK's hands he will always back away from the stage when he's offstage to prevent getting gimped and b reverse his up b to get back quickly. Of course if he is at all gimped, even with a soft spike, and lost his jump then yeah his recovery is bad, and this can still happen from time to time even in the hands of a dk that tries to b reverse most of the time offstage.http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
Huhey! This is a thread that pertains to the current discussion the most recent version of the rankings is:
SS
S
A
B
C
D
E
F
FF
What do you think?
Honestly most characters have a good recovery because of smash 4's mechanics, its the few that don't like dr. mario and ganondorf that are frustrating. Honestly if both falcon and ganondorf were able to jump again after doing their respective down b's again it would be great. Dr. Mario needs to be able to travel more horizontally with his down b in the air.
Last edited:
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
p sure this topic is for discussion most/none of which the game developers will ever see and aren't meant to
Pyr
Smash Lord
I think the point is why have a fruitless discussion when there are more relevant discussions to be had?
David Viran
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2014
- Messages
- 1,500
Flip jump is
Flip jump is already way more unforgiving than bf. If you screw up with it you eat a hard punish.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Same with Bouncing Fish. Extremely easy to punish on spot dodge (smash attack) and air dodge (Back air).
NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
How does B reversed Spinning Kong aid his recovery? It already covers massive horizontal range.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
The only thing I can think of is the acceleration DK has to go through if he still has momentum from being sent to the blast zone. So I guess B reversing will use that momentum in your favor.
Am I correct?
- Status