Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

Sooo...
Chef Pac has dropped Pac-Man for Mario because he thinks Pac-Man can't kill (this is just untrue) and can't win when people know the matchup, and Zucco is dropping mega man because he is tired of having to work so hard to win and is "tired of losing to so many high/top tiers".

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

 

[Sir Tundra]

That's what my original post was about: The reason being big and light is bad is because everything hits you and you die early. However, being a fastfaller and light leads to the exact same thing: you get comboed super hard, meaning everything hits you and you die early. Can you tell me if there's some sort of huge difference between the two? (and TBH, I'd rather be super big and floaty than be a super fastfaller. At least the floatiness helps you escape some stuff.)

We already have Fox showing that being very susceptible to damage and dying early isn't necessarily crippling (and Rosalina too, but she's special). So throwing Mewtwo in bottom 5 like many people are doing JUST because he's big and light makes no sense at all. He is bottom half though, I will agree there.

light weight fast fallers like fox tend to be characters who're easy to combo/kill but can also combo just as hard if not even harder.

not to mention a character like fox has very good movement speed. Speed is generally a very important asepct not just in smash but in fighting games period. not to mention fox is pretty small meaning he's a harder target to hit.

Mewtwo on the other hand doesn't have that luxary.

Being super big and floaty may help you not get combo'd but it makes you such a huge target and makes you easy to kill. also mewtwo has a pretty terrible disadvantage stage and is quite easy to chase in the air.

The thing about rosalina that makes her special is that her attacks are really disjointed, have priority, and luma making her both hard to approach and hard to zone. I know you adressed that already but I really just wanted to point that out. Anyways Mewtwo could only dream of having those feats as he's pretty easy to approach and gets destroyed by rushdowners characters like sheik, fox, pikachu, diddy, and falcon

 

[warionumbah2]

Sooo...
Chef Pac has dropped Pac-Man for Mario because he thinks Pac-Man can't kill (this is just untrue) and can't win when people know the matchup, and Zucco is dropping mega man because he is tired of having to work so hard to win and is "tired of losing to so many high/top tiers".

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

Who do they use now?

 

[Sir Tundra]

Sooo...
Chef Pac has dropped Pac-Man for Mario because he thinks Pac-Man can't kill (this is just untrue) and can't win when people know the matchup, and Zucco is dropping mega man because he is tired of having to work so hard to win and is "tired of losing to so many high/top tiers".

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

I don't think chef pac/zucco are going to drop their mains completely but rather use them as secondaries

 

[Man Li Gi]

Lemme say this @ DaRkJaWs . I b reverse punch and cyclone since they are unique and integral to DK (as well as being available and viable in Brawl). B reversing slap isn't bad, it's just outclassed and b reversing headbutt seems a bit superfluous to me and could be out closed by something else. 20 frames of startup? Even fair comes out faster. If you can show me an instance you use it and no other vastly superior option exists (both headbutt and slap) then I would respectfully concede my notion. The challenge is yours.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

Why go for depth when you can use the lowest common denominator and achieve better results for it right out the gate?

Play to win.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sooo...
Chef Pac has dropped Pac-Man for Mario because he thinks Pac-Man can't kill (this is just untrue) and can't win when people know the matchup, and Zucco is dropping mega man because he is tired of having to work so hard to win and is "tired of losing to so many high/top tiers".

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

Because it tends to be frustrating playing subpar characters and losing because of it.

 

[Greward]

Sooo...
Chef Pac has dropped Pac-Man for Mario because he thinks Pac-Man can't kill (this is just untrue) and can't win when people know the matchup, and Zucco is dropping mega man because he is tired of having to work so hard to win and is "tired of losing to so many high/top tiers".

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

Depth doesn't make a character good, unfortunately.
I can't speak for Pacman but nearly all Mega Man players with relevant tournament results have dropped him or stopped solo maining him. The character is very deep and I feel we worked hard to develop his metagame but he's kinda underpowered anyways. At the end of the day you want to win and unfortunately your favorite character isn't always the one that will make that happen.

 

[Sir Tundra]

sadly it's true when it comes to being a tournament player your goal is to win or at least get a good placing. Characters like pacman and megaman simply hold people like chef 2pac and (not)zucco from the firenation back from reaching their full potential due to being whow to complex. It's like how a sayian lowers his power level in a middle of a fight against an opponent(I know alot of people here must watch dbz too know what I'm talking about). he'd win easier if he'd just use his full power. zucco and chef 2pac were just never using their full power and they kept losing to people who had lower potential then them but yet were using high/top tier characters.

 

[Teshie U]

Pacman relies on intricate traps and counteracting aggression to get KOs most of the time.

Obviously he has KO power and a variety of ways to KO you, but none of them really work well against someone safely spacing away with a good character. With his low range, clankable projectiles and slow laggy harmless grab he struggles to even hit alot of characters.

Compare that to Mario relentlessly upsmashing safely, caping recoveries, skipping neutral with FLUDD. Heck yea Pacman doesnt kill compared to mario.

 

[Kaladin]

Why go for depth when you can use the lowest common denominator and achieve better results for it right out the gate?

Play to win.

Ask Vex. Because it feels good to do cool **** with a not top tier character.

 

[⑨ball]

Sooo...
Chef Pac has dropped Pac-Man for Mario because he thinks Pac-Man can't kill (this is just untrue) and can't win when people know the matchup, and Zucco is dropping mega man because he is tired of having to work so hard to win and is "tired of losing to so many high/top tiers".

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

"I want the money to work for me, I'm tired of working for the money."

 

[Nu~]

Who do they use now?

Chef Pac switched to Mario, and Zucco is still deciding between Mario and Meta Knight.

@everyone I understand the play to win mentality, but I don't see Pac-Man as 'bad'. Call me an idealist, but I see him only getting better as his meta moves forward. It just seems too soon to judge how bad his matchups are when people have only scratched the surface of his gameplay. Pac-Mains don't even fully understand how he works yet.

I can't speak for mega man since I don't main him, but perhaps he doesn't have what it takes going off of what @ Greward said. He has depth, but his character design holds him back.

 

[Mr. Johan]

@everyone I understand the play to win mentality, but I don't see Pac-Man as 'bad'.

It's not that Pac's bad, though. It's that Mario's easier. A lot easier.

 

[Teshie U]

Pacman and Megaman have a solid enough defensive game, but they don't do well at catching people staying at max distance. I think they could be viable if you have the dedication and patience to be willing to camp anyone and everyone until time runs out.

I think megaman has a deep combo game and lay down some hard punishes when he gets a clean hit, he also walls out very well and has enough mobility to avoid some of the most dangerous things from viable characters. However even at high level play, I don't think most players have the patience to flow chart people defensively for the entire set.

Reminds me of Brawl Sonic. There wasn't really much of a legitimate way in against most characters, but once he worked hard to get a solid lead, he could put the odds in his favor a bit. You just had to be willing to be an asshole for 8-10 minutes if your opponent didnt get reckless.

 

[PK Gaming]

Fire Emblem characters have it pretty good atm. The fact that Japan considers them to be generally poor means that another round of buffs is in the cards, though it is a shame that Robin is the highest of the bunch, heh.

 

[Ghostbone]

Chef Pac switched to Mario, and Zucco is still deciding between Mario and Meta Knight.

@everyone I understand the play to win mentality, but I don't see Pac-Man as 'bad'. Call me an idealist, but I see him only getting better as his meta moves forward. It just seems too soon to judge how bad his matchups are when people have only scratched the surface of his gameplay. Pac-Mains don't even fully understand how he works yet.

I can't speak for mega man since I don't main him, but perhaps he doesn't have what it takes going off of what @ Greward said. He has depth, but his character design holds him back.

Idk why you assume pac-man's so much deeper than every other character.

Every other character, including top tiers, are still having their metagame pushed (developing new styles, perfecting certain option coverages, etc).
Every character gets better as their mains push them. Pac-man has obviously flaws when compared to the top tiers, so it's just going to hurt a player (in terms of tournament winnings) in the long run if they stick with him.

 

[FullMoon]

@everyone I understand the play to win mentality, but I don't see Pac-Man as 'bad'. Call me an idealist, but I see him only getting better as his meta moves forward. It just seems too soon to judge how bad his matchups are when people have only scratched the surface of his gameplay. Pac-Mains don't even fully understand how he works yet.

The thing is if you feel your character is holding you back, no matter how much you try to work with them, then it's probably time for you to make a switch.

I keep playing Greninja because I love him and I do well with him. Never do I feel like I'm losing because of my character choice (except against Sheik, sometimes) but just because I got outplayed or went into auto-pilot and started messing up.

If at some point you start losing faith in that character and not having fun with them, it's better to switch, you shouldn't care much about representating a particularly rare character in competitive play and instead focus on your personal enjoyment of the character and your tournament results with said character does affect that.

 

[Locke 06]

Mega doesn't lose to too many top tiers. He just loses to Sheik too hard while requiring 10x more effort in just about every matchup. Contrary to popular belief, more effort does not equal losing the matchup.

* uses haze*

 

[DaRkJaWs]

This is a lie. Fundamentals > Everything else. If you master fundamentals you have mastered the game. No amount of B reversing will change that.

I definitely agree with this, but if you master tech as well then you've truly mastered the game. You're just using all available options whereas a player with fundamentals can still win but in the long run will be at a competitive disadvantage.

 

[RayNoire]

Also, about Mewtwo....the only he issue he does have his is weight

*facepalm* *headdesk* *headoven*

...Fine. We'll try again.

 

[Ffamran]

*facepalm* *headdesk* *headoven*

...Fine. We'll try again.

Wait... what? I thought Mewtwo's tail wasn't considered a part of its? his? hers? hurtbox. When it's stretched out like that, having a hurtbox on it would be stupid. Marth and Lucina's Up Smash do have weird hitboxes on grounded opponents, but I think that's just for leading into the hit from Falchion. It shouldn't suck Mewtwo in like that. Hmm... I wonder if this happens to Charizard?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

*facepalm* *headdesk* *headoven*

...Fine. We'll try again.

ok i didn't see your first "vine". I've whiffed grabs with DK before just like that, and i know other players have as well with their characters. It's really strange stuff, but just FYI its not just mewtwo.

As for your vine above, yeah that's BS. but obviously you should know that nobody was thinking about mewtwo's hurtbox on his tail or whatever.

 

[outfoxd]

Mega doesn't lose to too many top tiers. He just loses to Sheik too hard while requiring 10x more effort in just about every matchup. Contrary to popular belief, more effort does not equal losing the matchup.

* uses haze*

One of the miseries of Duck Hunt, though worse. Not only do we have to put in absurd effort, we have to do it for a loooooong time.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't know if Mewtwo's tail still is a hurtbox (and if so, how much of it), but the thing is unlike Melee he holds it upright most of the time so it's much less awkward in general.

Some of his tail attacks do extend his hurtbox, though, like bair (even though I haven't run afoul of it lately...)

 

[Vipermoon]

*facepalm* *headdesk* *headoven*

...Fine. We'll try again.

Wait what happened here? I see the usual perfect shield up smash out of sheild cpu stuff.

Edit: If this is about the range Marth's transcendent ground hitbox in Usmash will reach any character from there.

 

[san.]

Hurtbox extends to like half the tail length. Similar with Charizard, though his is shorter on the horizontal plane I think.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

*facepalm* *headdesk* *headoven*

...Fine. We'll try again.

DK suddenly feels smaller...

 

[Nu~]

Idk why you assume pac-man's so much deeper than every other character.

Every other character, including top tiers, are still having their metagame pushed (developing new styles, perfecting certain option coverages, etc).
Every character gets better as their mains push them. Pac-man has obviously flaws when compared to the top tiers, so it's just going to hurt a player (in terms of tournament winnings) in the long run if they stick with him.

I mean...do you even understand the character? Sure, every character still has to perfect styles and combo opportunities, but Pac-Man's depth is unique in this game.
Your nuetral kinda revolves around forcing the opponent to play into your hands, and gaining time to set up answers to everything your opponent can do.
You don't only have to deal with tool interaction with the opponent, but tool interaction with your OWN tools.

There is so much that pacman is capable of that isn't surreal. The problem is that he needs time which isn't always an option

BSP summed this up pretty well

Considering our character still has 2 serious names in the competitive scene, it might be a good idea. People want to see results, which we're not going to get until more of us travel or others see what Pac-Man brings to the table.

I can't blame them for being skeptical since most of Pac-Man's stuff is easily dealt with (in a vacuum...) and our strengths are very subtle. We lack a clear winning strategy unlike the other good characters and we don't have many auto combos, Luma, no grab, etc. Half of our specials can be used against us, so we're unique in that regard too.

I practiced Key recovery on various stages for around 30 minutes last night. I still need to get completely comfortable with my Melon z drop timings in order for it to be gushed how I want. I still haven't been incorporating delayed hydrant launches using the upwards water spout. Who else takes all this effort? It's not wonder he's not used much.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo has tons of disjoints. That's hardly a weakness of his. Having the hit animation on his smashes trigger but sometimes not count, now that's a pain.

 

[Blobface]

"I just wonder what Ganon's up to" -,1993

All guaranteed minus a single tech opportunity after the Dash Attack, even the U-smash (though if they DI the D-air you'll need to use U-air for 75% instead of 84).

Be afraid

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo has tons of disjoints. That's hardly a weakness of his. Having the hit animation on his smashes trigger but sometimes not count, now that's a pain.

This happens with Palutena's usmash too. Just a minor case of the animation coming out a frame or so before the actual hit frames.

Wait what happened here? I see the usual perfect shield up smash out of sheild cpu stuff.

Edit: If this is about the range Marth's transcendent ground hitbox in Usmash will reach any character from there.

Just more complaining about Mewtwo's big frame. Though what he was doing dash attacking there I have no idea. Basically asking for a punish.

 

[Greward]

I can't speak for mega man since I don't main him, but perhaps he doesn't have what it takes going off of what @ Greward said. He has depth, but his character design holds him back.

I don't think Mega has a bad design, he is just a bit underpowered. Both his damage output and kill potential are lacking.

Mega doesn't lose to too many top tiers. He just loses to Sheik too hard while requiring 10x more effort in just about every matchup. Contrary to popular belief, more effort does not equal losing the matchup.

Not really. The only matchups he could not lose out of the high tiers are Sonic / Diddy / Ness / Luigi / Villager.
I don't believe sheik is his hardest, it probably is Mario or helikick mii brawler, but it's hard to assess these kind of matchups.

 

[Nu~]

I don't think Mega has a bad design, he is just a bit underpowered. Both his damage output and kill potential are lacking.
.

That's kind of what I meant, but I wasn't very specific. He was designed to keep people out with chip damage projectiles to force opponents to make mistakes, but they gave him few ways to seal the KO without a big mistake on the opponent's part (not spacing an attack right on mega man's shield)

 

[DunnoBro]

Why are people giving up on their characters so fast? Especially ones with depth?

Because depth in this game isn't rewarded as much as easybake combos. And it's obvious without customs that deep characters like megaman and dhd aren't viable.

Only in customs is there any kind of reward for exploring depth since the simplest, most easy to design characters are the best ones in default.

 

[RayNoire]

If this is about the range Marth's transcendent ground hitbox in Usmash will reach any character from there.

I mean, I know the hitbox isn't just the sword, but that's a wee bit of a stretch methinks.

Just more complaining about Mewtwo's big frame. Though what he was doing dash attacking there I have no idea. Basically asking for a punish.

Bruh. Really?

Like, really?

 

[Appledees]

Not really. The only matchups he could not lose out of the high tiers are Sonic / Diddy / Ness / Luigi / Villager.
I don't believe sheik is his hardest, it probably is Mario or helikick mii brawler, but it's hard to assess these kind of matchups.

I think he goes even with Falcon tbh and I don't think he does poorly against Rosalina

 

[Cassio]

I've talked about this before, but a very underrated aspect of what separates two characters is consistency.

If 64 Kirby and 64 Fox have roughly the same MU spread, but 64 Kirby allows you to achieve his max MU spread easier then 64 Kirby is a better character. This doesnt make 64 fox a bad character, but in tournament that matters. Of course it also gives hope to character loyalists who will claim their character has a good MU spready and they very well could be right.

Take another character like melee Fox. Even though hes very hard to be consistent with, achieving consistency with him rewards you with +1 MUs or better vs the entire cast. But playing subpar can be embarassing because otherwise advantaged MUs become a lot closer.

This lesson is something Ive learned in particular through melee pikachu. I feel like he has some decent MUs against good characters, but being consistent with him is hard through a whole tournament. Sometimes Ill switch to marth just to catch a break and save my pika, who is overall better when Im playing well, for when I have the stamina to do as well as Id like with him in important matches.

 

[Locke 06]

I don't think Mega has a bad design, he is just a bit underpowered. Both his damage output and kill potential are lacking.



Not really. The only matchups he could not lose out of the high tiers are Sonic / Diddy / Ness / Luigi / Villager.
I don't believe sheik is his hardest, it probably is Mario or helikick mii brawler, but it's hard to assess these kind of matchups.

Yeah, you and I disagree quite a bit in terms of MU's. Have for a while, but to each their own. It's hard to assess matchups with such a small player base without relying too hard on theory, and we play pretty differently and unsurprisingly theorize differently about MU's.

The MU's I lean towards him having a larger chance of losing rather than being even/winning among the top 15 in the OP are:

Spoiler

Put me down as a cautious optimist, but I believe Mega Man players are just simply not good with the character yet. There's too many mistakes made and Mega man gets hit hard for his mistakes.

So, all there is for me to do is to get better and prove it. -shrugs-

Edit: Cassio hit the nail on the head and pounded it into the ground.

 

[DunnoBro]

Characters are good because they can make mistakes, if you have to play perfect to have a chance, that character is not good.