Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

Characters are good because they can make mistakes, if you have to play perfect to have a chance, that character is not good.

But the player is legendary

 

[T4ylor]

@ DunnoBro , do you really find Duck Hunt to be unviable? Just asking coz he has taken at least a couple top 8's in Japan nationals.

 

[Locke 06]

Characters are good because they can make mistakes, if you have to play perfect to have a chance, that character is not good.

Don't need to play perfect, just better. I'd say that's significantly better than not having a chance at all.

Mega is relatively heavy. Almost as if he can afford to make a few mistakes. Hmm...

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro , do you really find Duck Hunt to be unviable? Just asking coz he has taken at least a couple top 8's in Japan nationals.

Japan's a different meta with villagers, sonics, warios, rosalinas, and other super defensive characters dominating. Duck hunt could be viable there, but not here where rushdown is king.

Japan's meta also just simply isn't as serious as ours.

Don't need to play perfect, just better. I'd say that's significantly better than not having a chance at all.

Mega is relatively heavy. Almost as if he can afford to make a few mistakes. Hmm...

Being heavy and fast falling with a mediocre disadvantaged state doesn't really make up for making mistakes as much as having low-lag aerials or specials like sheik fair and spindash.

Also the kind of perfect play I'm referring to isn't necessarily the kind of play that results in punishes when done incorrectly. But also just demanding reads, or severe mistakes on the part of the opponent.

The creed of the sm4sh top tiers is becoming "I could outplay you... Or I could just grab you"

 

[Blobface]

Ok, I agree that the top tiers should have some changes, but let's not get out of scale here.

Previous smash top tiers make smash 4 top tiers look like Brawl Ganondorf.

 

[BSP]

Chef Pac switched to Mario, and Zucco is still deciding between Mario and Meta Knight.

@everyone I understand the play to win mentality, but I don't see Pac-Man as 'bad'. Call me an idealist, but I see him only getting better as his meta moves forward. It just seems too soon to judge how bad his matchups are when people have only scratched the surface of his gameplay. Pac-Mains don't even fully understand how he works yet.

I can't speak for mega man since I don't main him, but perhaps he doesn't have what it takes going off of what @Greward said. He has depth, but his character design holds him back.

Let's be real man. Pac-Man isn't bad, but he's not worth playing in a competitive sense except for his favorable MU against Luigi IMO. He goes even at best with the relevant characters and loses to most of them. If I were a player who paid considerable $$$ to travel for tourneys, I wouldn't hinge my success on a character I don't have 100% confidence in. The fact that the top Pac-Man players have seconds or have dropped him isn't surprising. I still think his grab alone keeps him top 20 at most.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ok, I agree that the top tiers should have some changes, but let's not get out of scale here.

Previous smash top tiers make smash 4 top tiers look like Brawl Ganondorf.

Only bad top tier is luigi imo

The rest are fine but there's just too much overlap in how they play. Only fox, and rosalina consistently kill off moves other than grabs. (Or rather situations/frame traps created from grabs)

I like options off throws a LOT, especially in this game with such strong shields. But there should be other good safe-on-shield kill/combo opportunities like fox dair or luma crap. Robin's better throws and frame traps for grabs are great too.

A good reason to not sit in shield is pretty much the sole reason top tiers are where they are.

 

[David Viran]

Only bad top tier is luigi imo

The rest are fine but there's just too much overlap in how they play. Only fox, and rosalina consistently kill off moves other than grabs. (Or rather situations/frame traps created from grabs)

I like options off throws a LOT, especially in this game with such strong shields. But there should be other good safe-on-shield kill/combo opportunities like fox dair or luma crap. Robin's better throws and frame traps for grabs are great too.

A good reason to not sit in shield is pretty much the sole reason top tiers are where they are.

This makes me wonder where zss sits in all this.

 

[Nu~]

Let's be real man. Pac-Man isn't bad, but he's not worth playing in a competitive sense except for his favorable MU against Luigi IMO. He goes even at best with the relevant characters and loses to most of them. If I were a player who paid considerable $$$ to travel for tourneys, I wouldn't hinge my success on a character I don't have 100% confidence in. The fact that the top Pac-Man players have seconds or have dropped him isn't surprising. I still think his grab alone keeps him top 20 at most.

The only ones I see as being unfavorable are

Favorable ones are:


And the rest are closer to even. I don't see how pacman isn't relevant to the competitive meta. His matchup spread may not equal a top tier, but let's not underrate it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Characters are good because they can make mistakes, if you have to play perfect to have a chance, that character is not good.

This is easy to show when you look at brawl MK

That character has so many options when he's in disadvantage, you have to make multiple reads on the MK player to get the same sort of punish that he gets on you for making one mistake.
A good example is when MK grounded up-b's your shield he has 3 main options, he can immediately glide down and glide attack, or buffer a fastfall out of it (which auto cancels), or glide past you. You can't cover all the options and you may even get hit for trying to cover the wrong one.
Compare this to when Marth up-b's someone's shield. Similar potential reward if it hits, but much easier to punish as the only real mixup is him falling to the ledge, a platform, or the main stage, and they're all easy to cover.

These sort of disparities are obvious when you look at the top tiers vs worse characters. Top tiers get better rewards and are harder to punish. Perfect play is meaningless because if people play "perfect" nobody gets hit. It's all about the reward you get off a read (luigi gets 40%), and how little you get punished (sheik can bouncing fish away from a juggle).

 

[Sir Tundra]

Only bad top tier is luigi imo

The rest are fine but there's just too much overlap in how they play. Only fox, and rosalina consistently kill off moves other than grabs. (Or rather situations/frame traps created from grabs)

I like options off throws a LOT, especially in this game with such strong shields. But there should be other good safe-on-shield kill/combo opportunities like fox dair or luma crap. Robin's better throws and frame traps for grabs are great too.

A good reason to not sit in shield is pretty much the sole reason top tiers are where they are.

How can one be a bad top tier if their top tier to begin with?

I'm not trying to be rude or anything I'm just saying.

If anything though I would call luigi the lesser of the top tiers due to the fact that he has problems against zoning characters.

Previous smash top tiers make smash 4 top tiers look like Brawl Ganondorf.

Your so right it ain't even funny

 

[DunnoBro]

How can one be a bad top tier if their top tier to begin with?

I'm not trying to be rude or anything I'm just saying.

If anything though I would call luigi the lesser of the top tiers due to the fact that he has problems against zoning characters.

Your so right it ain't even funny

By bad I meant "imo poorly designed" since he's so simplistic and counterplay against him largely depends on your character due to that.

His viability will likely plummet if people follow the past and pick up the top 3, but he'll continue to bar certain characters from viability if the presence of his top tier counters don't maintain.

This makes me wonder where zss sits in all this.

I like her, healthiest top tier imo.

She can't just throw out dash grabs or approach. She has to poke and create a good opening, though her rewards are pretty ridiculous too, they take a lot more character, opponent, %, and situational awareness than luigi's stuff.

 

[PK Gaming]

Finally got around to watching eSAM's video

So Robin's ranked fairly highly which is... interesting. The common sentiment regarding that character is that his buffs were amazing, but not enough to fix his fundamental problems, but eSAM comes at it from a different perspective, citing the downthrow to uair kill as a big reason for his improved viability. I'm wary about that line of reasoning because the downthrow > uair window is extremely tiny and wildly dependent on the matchup.

But... gosh, a high level, non-Robin player backing the character is exciting. Also he gave @Dathx his dues, a massively underrated player who's been rocking Robin and kicking ass with that character before the buffs.

 

[DunnoBro]

No offense to ESAM but his views on the meta have always been kind of iffy. IIRC he thought pikachu was 2nd only to MK in brawl, he seems to hold that position again in sm4sh due to a similar situation where pikachu goes even with the absolute top tier despite iffy MUs along the way.

 

[Djent]

Japan's a different meta with villagers, sonics, warios, rosalinas, and other super defensive characters dominating. Duck hunt could be viable there, but not here where rushdown is king.

Japan's meta also just simply isn't as serious as ours.

Duck Hunt generally performs fairly mediocre over there. Yusan's top 8 finish this past weekend is the first for the character in 3 months (since Karisuma & KSB in May) and the first that wasn't due to Brood. Given that G&W, another borderline-unviable character, also has several top 8 appearances and notable wins thanks to a single person, I kind of think it's mostly a conjunction of dedicated outlier(s) + bracket luck.

I also disagree somewhat with your "serious" assessment, though obviously Zero is better than any player they have by a country mile. Rain and Ranai are comparable in skill to other "A+ tier" competitors worldwide (Nairo, ESAM, Mr-R) and they have a fairly bloated "A/A-" league like we do as well. It's true they've developed certain characters less than we have ("different meta" and all). But then there are others which are arguably much more developed (ex: the Falcon trio of Pichi/Saiya/Souther who are all at least as good as Fatality).

EDIT: incomplete sentence

 

[Trifroze]

Can we talk about ZSS' RCO lag after being hit out of up b and landing?

It's literally 3-4 times as much as normally. Haven't they fixed this thing for many characters already?

 

[PK Gaming]

No offense to ESAM but his views on the meta have always been kind of iffy. IIRC he thought pikachu was 2nd only to MK in brawl, he seems to hold that position again in sm4sh due to a similar situation where pikachu goes even with the absolute top tier despite iffy MUs along the way.

Oh there are definitely iffy placements for his tier list (Diddy being #18... nah), but Robin being that high is interesting for a variety of reasons.

 

[LancerStaff]

Can we talk about ZSS' RCO lag after being after out of up b and landing?

It's literally 3-4 times as much as normally. Haven't they fixed this thing for many characters already?

Might just be intentional at this point... Pit has something like that too, but I have reasons to believe it's supposed to happen.

 

[Teshie U]

I've seen alot of strong Robin play starting from Vanilla just from Trela and Nairo. I always felt the character was somewhat weak against shields (backthrow isn't very strong for a slow character with poor grab range) and rolls (slow committed mid ranged coverage).

Dthrow is great now, sets up nice damage at low percent (dthrow-jab is 22%) and combos into his/her OP aerials at just barely KO percents. The need to DI it now sets up some mixups with Fthrow into thoron/elthunder (kills).

The lag reduction on thunder makes thunder 1 a decent harass and greatly increases options to confirm from arc thunder.


Arc Fire is still risky vs small fast characters, but I feel like Robin is the only character that got buffs that fix holes in his gameplan, not just buffing the few things he does well already.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Just give Robin either less cool down, a bigger fireball hitbox, or a Fire Wall-power quakebox when the ball makes contact with the ground during Arcfire, and I wouldn't ask for any more buffs ever again.

But in the meantime, I'll take Thunder/Arcthunder confirms, Dthrow shenanigans, and Fair killing more reliably thanks to the damage buff gladly. <3

 

[Browny]

Japan's a different meta with villagers, sonics, warios, rosalinas, and other super defensive characters dominating. Duck hunt could be viable there, but not here where rushdown is king.

Japan's meta also just simply isn't as serious as ours.

Man I like watching you play on Xanadu streams... but wtf, how do you come to that conclusion?

Just because they see more success than you do with your character, that makes their 'meta' not as serious?

I wish people would stop looking down on the japanese players just because they see things different to how you Americans do. They could EASILY say that the American 'meta' is non-optimal and too reckless where your opinions are worthless, and then what?

People in general need to stop thinking that the American way to play is the best way to play. Its like no matter how many times Japan proves itself in fighting games, no one on this site seems to take them seriously. I find it funny how Evo, despite a massive biased american contingent, still has Asian countries taking out many of the top spots. SF4 was like 1st-6th all asian. Do the SF4 players still claim the japanese meta is 'not as serious' in SF4, or is that uniquely a smashboards thing when it comes to understanding their reasons?

 

[Shaya]

Can we talk about ZSS' RCO lag after being hit out of up b and landing?

It's literally 3-4 times as much as normally. Haven't they fixed this thing for many characters already?

Literally would be willing to have it lose significant kill power for it to lose RCO.
It's a big downer and it's why ZSS mains focus on flip jump and call Boost Kick a bad move (it really is a meh move unless it guaranteed auto combos you). It's best usages are for an out of dash (and sometimes shield) punish, less opportunity for opponents to mash DI on the first hit.

If it didn't have RCO then the out of dash/shield usage of it would be significantly less risky, heck, using it to challenge people in the air (it's technically her "lowest" hitting aerial) would be worthwhile too.
It's essentially Marth's dolphin slash having RCO in Brawl significantly curtailing the liberty of usage all over again. In contrast Marth can use DS pretty liberally at this point, trading with it is generally always a positive for him.

 

[Blobface]

Since people have been talking about Luigi so much lately.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck Hunt generally performs fairly mediocre over there. Yusan's top 8 finish this past weekend is the first for the character in 3 months (since Karisuma & KSB in May) and the first that wasn't due to Brood. Given that G&W, another borderline-unviable character, also has several top 8 appearances and notable wins thanks to a single person, I kind of think it's mostly a conjunction of dedicated outlier(s) + bracket luck.

I also disagree somewhat with your "serious" assessment, though obviously Zero is better than any player they have by a country mile. Rain and Ranai are comparable in skill to other "A+ tier" competitors worldwide (Nairo, ESAM, Mr-R) and they have a fairly bloated "A/A-" league like we do as well. It's true they've developed certain characters less than we have ("different meta" and all). But then thers are arguably much more developed (ex: the Falcon trio of Pichi/Saiya/Souther who are all at least as good as Fatality).

I'll admit "serious" wasn't really accurate and the wrong wording, but the situation over there with less prize and tournament support generally lends itself to some... inadequacies in the "have to win" mindset department.

 

[Teshie U]

Japan's playing tend to be far more disciplined and patient. Going back to my earlier point about some characters kind of having to camp, I see why they have relevant players using Villager, Pacman, Duck Hunt and we don't. Skill aside, I think character that benefit the most from pure patience do better in Japan.

Western players usually want the quick route to victory. We want to lame it out, but we want to lame it out as quickly as possible (luigi, diddy, falcon).

 

[thehard]

From what I've seen, Japan doesn't necessarily camp. They play a very optimized offensive zoning game. Patient, but always using movement to cut off options.

 

[Shaya]

So I've started V2/collecting tidbits. You'll be glad to know ESAM's private and public opinions tend to be similar
Unlike last time the top 10 characters are featuring in every list, and the next four (11-14) are appearing in well over 2/3rds of them.

If I'm lucky at this current pace I can release around next week like planned. But the last few stragglers are likely always going to take the most effort, lol :V

Japanese players seem to be very mid-range focused and play a very solid neutral game on average in comparison to players from other regions. I think what's really separating them in results in the West are the "hard" reads/mix ups/dirty tactics we seem to all be very proud on our top tiers are very fleshed out, and the Japanese haven't really come up against it (meanwhile the opposite is true too, Abadango ranking around top 20 in Japan but outdoes his compatriots heavily in the West where Wario/Pac are under played).

 

[DunnoBro]

(meanwhile the opposite is true too, Abadango ranking around top 20 in Japan but outdoes his compatriots heavily in the West where Wario/Pac are under played).

IIRC Amsa followed this trend in Melee and Brood in brawl. (Wasn't even considered best olimar much less a very top player when he took 2nd at apex)

 

[warionumbah2]

Can we talk about ZSS' RCO lag after being hit out of up b and landing?

It's literally 3-4 times as much as normally. Haven't they fixed this thing for many characters already?

Maybe its there to stop ZSS users from spamming that in FFA without any draw backs, oh wait dun dun dun MK has the same bloody thing. There's a high possibility that its intentional, i want this rco lag out of here.

Zucco is still deciding between Mario and Meta Knight.

At this point im not surprised anymore.

 

[Shaya]

They also spearheaded major growth (at least Brawl wise it did). Suddenly everyone realised tech skill was required to play the game with buffering, Olimar shot up further in perception and many successful players cropped up more than before (Rich, Dabuz and Logic were always doing well though IIRC).

 

[Trifroze]

Same with Bouncing Fish. Extremely easy to punish on spot dodge (smash attack) and air dodge (Back air).

Gotta add something to this, bouncing fish is a 28 frame move and flip jump/kick is 40-45 (depends on the height of your opponent). Bouncing fish punishes projectiles and flip kick doesn't, it's that simple. I agree that the latter is a really strong move but ZSS needs it, Sheik can do without.

 

[Shaya]

Oh and the mention above reminded me that I would "for interest's sake" post a full tier list derived from the top 15/bottom 10 votes. I love how asking for half of an answer in data/computing will tend towards a full answer with enough data points. Also obviously we all knew S/A/B & F from the front post.
So with a reminder that this is pre-evo, mixed customs focus and pre-July patch and by nature is going to be messy (with liberties from me fitting together characters voted in both top/bot or not at all).

S:
A:

B: []
C:
D:

E:
F:

Valid: July 18th

I don't think I missed anyone, but as you know, I tend to. D on wards is [mostly] alphabetical.

Just a few notes on what areas you would expect change in naturally (patches/perceptions):
Marth/Ike/Charizard/DK/Robin/WiiFit.
Settling of Ryu/Roy/Lucas.
Palutena and Mii Brawler dipping (contributors are focusing on customs off only).

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Oh and the mention above reminded me that I would "for interest's sake" post a full tier list derived from the top 15/bottom 10 votes. I love how asking for half of an answer in data/computing will tend towards a full answer with enough data points. Also obviously we all knew S/A/B & F from the front post.
So with a reminder that this is pre-evo, mixed customs focus and pre-July patch and by nature is going to be messy (with some necessary liberties taken by me)...

S:
A:

B: []
C:
D:

E:
F:

Valid: July 18th

I don't think I missed anyone, but as you know, I tend to. D on wards is [mostly] alphabetical.

Funny how much things have changed already.

 

[Trifroze]

wo

When did Mega Man and Pac-Man drop so much? I remember them being widely considered top 20 for a long time. I'd like to say Samus and WFT are better than what the list shows but on the other hand someone has to be there. Someone has to be with Ganondorf.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The only ones I see as being unfavorable are

Favorable ones are:


And the rest are closer to even. I don't see how pacman isn't relevant to the competitive meta. His matchup spread may not equal a top tier, but let's not underrate it.

See, the issue isn't that Pac-Man is that hard to play - he isn't.
The issue also isn't that it's hard to grasp how his options can work out for him.
It's also not hard to execute stuff with him or make it up on the spot.

You simply overrate this character and your opinions of his matchups are proof of that. Pac-Man does not go even with Fox, Sonic, ZSS or Yoshi and I really, really don't trust you when you say he beats Falcon, Diddy or Ness.

The truth is that you're deluding yourself over your favorite video game character. That's the real issue.

IIRC Amsa followed this trend in Melee and Brood in brawl. (Wasn't even considered best olimar much less a very top player when he took 2nd at apex)

Brood was by all means considered a top level player at that time, even though Nietono had just taken the spot as best japanese Olimar. Most people just hadn't heard of him because most people were very ignorant towards what's happening in Japan ... they still are for the most part.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Time to convert my disgustingly sloppy notes into an actual post~

Decided to do some labbing with Kirby (as if this isn't what I'm always doing) and found some interesting things. Some of these are obvious, but they're literally never utilized by Kirby mains, so anybody who doesn't actually know the character may find it interesting. Some of these things are minor, but optimization is important!

First, let's talk about B-Throw. This is overall the most interesting thing I've found, and actually makes me think a lot higher of Kirby's throws. While I don't have specific frame data for it, the FAF on Kirby's B-Throw is oddly fast. When Kirby starts to rise after hitting the opponent, if you buffer an option, he does it immediately and looks like he's teleporting, even in slower Training Room speeds. Due to buffered actions out of the throw moving Kirby to this set distance, both U-Air and Fast Fall U-Air autocancel out of the throw, each having their own applications.

When Kirby uses B-Throw near a ledge, if he uses U-Air while drifting to the ledge, you can cause Kirby to land and slide off the stage, grabbing the ledge right away. The timing is similar to how you'd cancel the lag on certain recoveries such as Peach's Parasol by sliding off the stage or a platform. This allows Kirby to launch his opponent off the stage and set himself up for an optimal position to edgeguard. Depending on the percentage, he can also double jump backwards out of the throw to put himself in a better position.

If Kirby fast falls U-Air after B-Throw, he'll land before the hitbox comes out. This actually seems to have the opposite effect when compared to standard U-Air. When you buffer U-Air out of B-Throw, Kirby teleports upwards slightly when the move starts (such as how Marth moves forward during U-Tilt). When you hold the control stick down while buffering an U-Air, however, Kirby teleports downwards slightly. While I don't have definitive frame data, Kirby is at the very least landing nine frames after B-Throw if it's autocancel window follows the same rules as other games. From eyeballing it, Kirby's definitely landing faster than nine frames, though. The main difference with this compared to Kirby's "hup cancel" is that the overall execution is easier, along with giving Kirby more momentum before he lands. This allows for B-Throw to be used as a jab lock set-up against faster fallers (Fox, Greninja, Sheik, Falcon, etc.) and gives the throw much more usage as you can now pressure the opponent much better.

Along with that, Kirby's SHAD can use FF U-Air's autocancel much more effectively than "hup cancel" can, due to the same things B-Throw uses it for (momentum and consistency). Kirby is landing incredibly fast after this, it's practically instant (2-3 frames?), which gives it much more use. While Kirby's SHAD isn't incredible like Marth and ZSS as the only move he can use out of it is B-Air, being able to land so fast helps drastically as a mix-up option, especially in conjunction with Kirby's perfect pivot tilts.

Going on to perfect pivots, there's a couple more applications with it that I've found to be useful. A vast majority of Kirby's Copy Abilities slide when he's using a perfect pivot, but some of the most notable ones are Sheik's Needles, Luigi's Fireballs, Olimar's Pikmin Toss, and Rosalina's Luma Shot. Luigi's Fireballs and Olimar's Pikmin Toss (especially this!) are big takeaways here, as it allows Kirby to move around while throwing out these projectiles. Kirby's full hop double fireballs cover the same space that Greninja's short hop double Water Shurikens do, so when used in conjunction with perfect pivoting, Kirby becomes a huge nuisance. Olimar's Pikmin Toss is straight up broken when used with PP, though. Kirby can use this already stupid ability while retreating and advancing to put constant pressure on Olimar and lock him into places that are favorable for Kirby. Rosalina's Luma Shot, while not being as useful as the others, is still noteworthy as Kirby's Luma Shot has priority over everything Rosalina's Luma does (transcendent priority?). This allows Kirby to retreat while throwing out his super-powered Luma to demolish anything Rosalina does with her own.

Now that the topic of Copy Abilities is brought up, let's discuss Inhale! As has been said before, Inhale is now nearing Wario's Chomp in terms of frame data, which has brought this move up from "can only be used on reads" to "can be safely used in many situations". Due to the improvement on start-up, Kirby can combo into Inhale for quite some time. Both his U-Tilt (regular and sourspot) and U-Air (regular and reversed) set up into Inhale. For specifics, against Sheik, U-Tilt combos into Inhale until 65% regular, 80% sourspot. Kirby's U-Air combos into Inhale until 70% regular, 75% reversed. F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt > Inhale is now our go-to combo when we need Copy Abilities. With this buff, Copy Abilities can now truly be included in Kirby's MUs rather than "if you manage to get this ability".

There's also some other new things due to this buff. Inhale's start-up is so fast that Kirby can now run off the stage and B-Reverse the move to grab opponents on-stage. This allows Kirby to drift under the stage with the opponent in his mouth, allowing for straight-up Kirbycides or using Star Shot under stages like Smashville, Town & City, and Battlefield to kill opponents. Both Kirby's F-Tilt and D-Tilt knock opponents off the stage into a tumble animation, which allows Kirby to Inhale them for the options mentioned above, or B-Air stage spike the opponent for early kills.

Along with that, the Inhale buff makes Kirby's ledge play really strong. Both Kirby's Inhale and Jab beat standard get-up, ledge attack and ledge jump, which either knocks the opponent off-stage to reset the situation (Jab/Star Shot) or gives Kirby easy access to his Copy Ability. Kirby's ledge trump B-Air is guaranteed as the move comes out on f6, which is incredibly dangerous to get hit by as it'll kill at relatively low percents or set up for further edgeguarding. Due to this, you'll almost always want to buffer ledge options against him. Sadly, two of the three options available to avoid trumping are beaten out by Jab/Inhale, so your only option left is to ledge roll, which is extremely punishable. Using a standard ledge get-up or attack is risking even more than it already is, as B-Reverse Inhale grabs both of them off the stage, along with F-Tilt/D-Tilt knocking them off for Inhale/B-Air stage spikes.

Moving onto Kirby's edgeguarding, I finally found out how Stone's knockback trajectory is decided! It's actually quite simple, I just never took the time to really find out how it worked. It's a bit odd to explain, however, so bear with me. As a reference, pretend Kirby's Stone is exactly in the middle above an opponents' hurtbox. If you move it a pixel to the right, it'll start launching left. If you move it a pixel to the left, it'll start launching left. This is important information as you can use it to decide whether you'll try to stage spike an opponent with Stone, or outright kill them.

Next, let's go on to Kirby's B-Air, there's some good properties here. Anybody that isn't incredibly short (Pikachu, Kirby, Greninja, etc.) will get hit by Kirby's full hop B-Air (for example, it hits Ness and Mega Man), which is incredibly safe. While certainly not as effective, this is reminiscent of Kirby's SH Brawl B-Air. This is especially useful for getting B-Air kills, along with setting up for edgeguarding. Due to the speed on Kirby's B-Air, it's a very potent edgeguarding move, and helps tremendously when D-Air isn't a viable option, such as against Pac-Man. Sourspot B-Air frame traps into B-Air's strong hit, which can net kills at incredibly low percents (especially when Rage is involved!) or put the opponent in a terrible position off-stage. It should also be noted that Kirby's SH B-Air autocancels and snaps to the ledge if you use it on-stage, so it's a viable option to get the opponent off.

Last thing. Due to being multi-hit, Kirby can choose to use his F-Air instead of B-Air when stage spiking, as it allows him to move into the stage before the final hit spikes the opponent. This can be used to prevent the opponent from teching due to the "no tech" thing that was found a while ago. A bit unrelated, but Kirby's F-Air, B-Air and U-Air all autocancel when using ledge aerials.

Now, let's move onto combos!

First and foremost, the most important thing. I was wrong. Regardless of DI, F-Throw > FF U-Air is guaranteed on all characters (including Sheik!). The only characters that avoid this is Greninja and Fox, both of which start getting combo'd at around 5%~ with DI down.

Now, onto the important things with this new-found knowledge. F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt is going to be Kirby's BnB combo at low percents. The reason for this is because PP U-Tilt combos into a ton of moves, most notably U-Tilt, Grab, and Inhale. This allows Kirby to get an insane amount of damage off low percent grabs. For example, here are three combos against Sheik, one of which was discussed in a previous post...

Spoiler

F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt > Sourspot U-Tilt x5 > U-Air > Sourspot U-Tilt > D-Air...

Now, the opponent is at 61%, while you have a few options.

If they shield, you get a free grab which allows for Pummel/U-Throw damage, ending the combo with a large 71%+ depending on pummels.

If they're always holding shield, you can true combo into U-Tilt, D-Tilt or Jab. If you use the entire Jab combo, you're leaving with around 73%. If you use D-Tilt and they trip, you can F-Smash, Grab, or PP U-Tilt and select an option (ie: U-Air, B-Air, Airdodge Bait, etc...).

If you use U-Tilt, you have a plethora of options available. If you're looking for consistent damage, combo into B-Air or U-Air. However, you can set up a 50/50. Unless they airdodge directly out of hitstun, you can D-Air them to reset the situation and get even more damage. However, if they airdodge, they'll land on the ground and suffer landing lag. Now, you can D-Air to reset the situation, punish the landing with Hammer Flip for a potential kill, or use Stone to get raw damage.

If they stop holding shield and try to escape in other ways, you can Sourspot U-Tilt > D-Air to reset the situation, too!

---

F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt > F-Throw > F-Air (missed tech) > D-Tilt x3 > Anything racks up major damage, too. At the very least, it's 73% guaranteed by punishing with Hammer Flip. Other options exist, too. Sourspot U-Tilt > D-Air gives Kirby even more options to choose from. Kirby can U-Air/Reverse U-Air > Reverse U-Air > B-Air for raw damage, although this is dependent on DI. Luckily, the two variants of U-Air send at opposite directions, so you can mess up the opponents' DI.

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F-Throw > F-Air > Fully Charged Needles is a true combo that does 23~28% depending on how Sheik DIs due to the damage decrease the longer needles travel. This allows Kirby to F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt > F-Throw > F-Air > Fully Charged Needles for 42~47% damage. This is especially useful when Kirby has rage as it allows him to get a huge lead against a new stock.

Also, this is actually noteworthy. F-Throw > Final Cutter combos until around 65%~ depending on the character with DI Away, and does 18%, giving Kirby a decent throw combo later on. This makes me like default Kirby a whole lot more, to be honest. There's also the general Copy Ability throw combos, such as Mach Tornado, Shield Breaker, Needles, Charge Shot, Giant Punch, Aura Sphere, Hadouken, etc. which is definitely helpful.

Going into Reverse U-Air, there's some more things found out about this! Reverse U-Air can combo into four notable moves. Reverse U-Air, B-Air, Sourspot B-Air and U-Tilt. For now, we'll focus on the former three. Being able to combo into B-Air is a kill set-up near the ledge, along with an easy way to get opponent into an edgeguarding situation. It generally deals good damage, too (22%). Being able to combo into Sourspot B-Air allows Kirby to frame trap into another B-Air, which can kill incredibly early near the ledge, does very high damage (30%) and puts the opponent in an unfavorable position. Being able to combo into Reverse U-Air, while it may seem a bit useless due to B-Air existing, is really good. Reverse U-Air > Reverse U-Air can combo into both B-Air and Sourspot B-Air, which gives Kirby the same applications listed above. This is DI dependent, as you can DI away, but if you do that and Kirby B-Air's you, you're dying much earlier. It should also be noted that U-Tilt/Sourspot U-Tilt combo into Reverse U-Air, which opens up the same options listed above, but is more character-dependant.

Kirby's Jab clashes with quite a large amount of projectiles in the game, such as Mario/Luigi's Fireballs, Paralyzer, Thunderjolt, Lloid Rocket, Water Shuriken (excluding fully charged), Hadouken and PK Fire (takes 2% then falls out before Ness can act). There's many, many more, but those are some of the more notable ones. Kirby can deal with almost all projectiles in the game through Jab/Crouch, which is good. This is especially helpful as walling out Kirby is much harder for characters than it would be if those two options didn't exist (unless your name is Mega Man, cri).

A bit anti-climactic and random way to end the post, but Star Shot has some interesting properties. The distance the opponent is launched is actually dependent on the percent difference compared to Kirby, using Nosferatu's rules in reverse, as the lower Kirby's % is compared to the opponent, the farther they'll be sent. For example, 0% Kirby against 999% opponent OHKOs, sending the opponent across the entirety of Final Destination and into the blast zone. Oddly enough, 999% Kirby against a 0% opponent ends up sending the opponent through Kirby's body, behind him. The main reason I'm bringing this up is because if Kirby uses Star Shot against a double jump or limited-use move (ie: Ryu's Helicopter Roleplay) it removes it from their arsenal until they get it back through regular means. While I haven't used this much in actual matches, this does have the potential to be good, especially against characters like Yoshi, Ness and Lucas.

ok thanks for reading it's 5AM and I'm tired byeeee~

no pretty pictures, .gifs or formatting makes me sad.

edit: fixed some dumb 5AM spelling mistakes

 

[Ghostbone]

And to think I have trouble writing 2000 word essays.

 

[PUK]

And to think I have trouble writing 2000 word essays.

Ask @Ffamran a lesson

On the kirby topic, yesterday i was able to see a monado kirby. Clearly high tier.
I think kirby's buff have been underestimated, fthrow give kirby a better tomahawk, inhale too. Kirby shines in double with the possibility to eat fresh stocks and to copy one of the ability on the ground.
I like the new kirby, wondering howto place him

 

[Nu~]

You simply overrate this character and your opinions of his matchups are proof of that. Pac-Man does not go even with Fox, Sonic, ZSS or Yoshi and I really, really don't trust you when you say he beats Falcon, Diddy or Ness.

See, the issue isn't that Pac-Man is that hard to play - he isn't.
The issue also isn't that it's hard to grasp how his options can work out for him.
It's also not hard to execute stuff with him or make it up on the spot

The truth is that you're deluding yourself over your favorite video game character. That's the real issue.

Then explain the "philosophy of pacman" to me then. The character is widely misunderstood, and you are only showing to me that you don't know the full concept of the character's design.

I may overrate my main at times, but I won't listen to anyone that won't explain why he loses.

 

[Routa]

I just love when people only talk about 'Murica's and Japan's competitive scene.