Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Sir Tundra]

Since were talking about character difficulties here I want to address how fox has basically became a lot easier to play in smash 4 compared to how he did in the past games.

You see in melee fox may have been the best character but he required a lot of technical skill as well as alot of precision. Fox's short hop in melee had a 2-3 frame window meaning you had less then a second to even do a short hop. things like wavedashing, shffl's, waveshining, and drill shining all were very important tools in fox's arsenal and all of those required a short hop. Their's the fact that fox was very easy to combo/ very easy to kill due to his fast falling speed, light weight, and slow air speed making him very vulnerable to 0-deaths meaning one mistake with fox could very well mean death if the opponent know's how to chain grab or tech chase very well.

In brawl fox couldn't really do much due to the physic's/gravity of brawl as well as the fact that the opponent could airdodge out of hitstun after 13 frames meaning fox could barely pull of combos. theirs also the fact that he basically got 0-death'd by character's like,, and . two of these characters were used often in tournament play.

And now you have . You see in smash 4 fox is just very straight forward. He requires no tech skill and not as much precison since he doesn't have to worry about chaingrabs anymore. fox has a very good combo game and can easily get in due to his speed. fox also has more kill setups compared to most of the cast meaning he doesn't have to work as hard for kills. the only thing fox has to worry about in smash 4 is his predictable recovery.

 

[Balgorxz]

Dedede certainly isn't among the bottom 10 characters in the game...He's a mid-tier character with great strengths with very mediocre frame data that holds him back.

I'd agree with you some months ago but most of the characters that were actually worse than DDD got much better thanks to patches, If I start analyzing characters one by one, he might be superior only to these characters :

and that's only a might

 

[Cassio]

Geeze sonic's is awful lol. Top 5 in mobility all around huh?
Doesn't really matter when he runs as fast as pacman's key

Pikachu is the opposite of this. His burst speed is only surpassed by I believe Fox, but his max speeds while good arent top of the game (max air speed is definitely mediocre but he accellerates fast). Sonic by comparison speeds up slow but max's out high.

Also when people were comparing mobility earlier, remember to consider ground speed too acceleration too. I posted this a few pages back but here's initial dash speeds ranked

Initial Dash Speed
Fox -2.4
Little Mac - 2.05
Falco - 1.9
Samus - 1.86
Pikachu - 1.8
Lucario - 1.8
MK - 1.75
1.7-------
C. Falcon
ZSS
Sheik
Diddy Kong
1.6---------
Greninja
Brawler
Donkey Kong
Mario
D Mario
Pacman
Bowser Jr
Gunner
Zelda
----------
Duck Hunt - 1.55
1.5 --------
Sonic
Palutena
Marth
Lucina
T Link
WFT
Pit
D. Pit
Rosalina
G&W
Shulk
Kirby
Ike
Megaman
Peach
Villager
Robin
1.4--------
Olimar
DDD
Jiggs
-----------
Yoshi - 1.33
1.3---------
ROB
Swordfighter,
Wario
Ness
Link
Ganon
---------
Luigi - 1.28
Charizard - 1
Bowser - 1

 

[DanGR]

He [Fox] requires no tech skill.

I was reading your post, but forgot everything you said previously when this came up.

Until I see Fox and every movement mechanic available to him perfected by literally any player, I'll continue respecting this game's high skill ceiling.

 

[bc1910]

Initial dash length is important when considering initial dash speeds. Samus' initial dash speed is really good but her initial dash length is very short, so her mobility still isn't good. PIka's initial dash isn't that short but it's not that long either, so his fast initial dash speed doesn't give him better ground mobility than a lot of characters with faster run speeds and longer initial dash lengths. His burst speed for dashing is good but the length of the initial dash keeps it in check.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He's right though.

There isn't much techskill required to become competent with Fox. Stuff like cross-up nair, bair or tomahawk grab for your approaches don't require a great deal of precision. His combos are intuitive as his moves flow into each other very nicely. There isn't any specific knowledge or timing needed to pull off any of that. Fox is easy to play, there's no other way to put it.

 

[Cassio]

Well theres a difference between being an easy character to pick up and a character thats easy to use as you advance competitively. Most of those I would consider some of the more standard Fox tech, whereas some of his movement and combo extensions can be a bit more advanced. The latter statement is more subject to debate then the former.

Even Fox in melee, while hard to master, isnt really THAT hard to pick up.

All that being said clearly smash 4 doesnt have the difficult tech requirements of its predecessors.

Initial dash length is important when considering initial dash speeds. Samus' initial dash speed is really good but her initial dash length is very short, so her mobility still isn't good. PIka's initial dash isn't that short but it's not that long either, so his fast initial dash speed doesn't give him better ground mobility than a lot of characters with faster run speeds and longer initial dash lengths. His burst speed for dashing is good but the length of the initial dash keeps it in check.

Initial dash's carry into your run though. Thats sort of a problem for a character like samus who's run speed is significantly less then her dash, and doesnt have very good options from dash. But for like say Diddy Kong it doesnt matter that his max speed is less then sonics because he starts faster and will be faster for the first several frames of run too.

Im certain this is why we see sonics feel more comfortable with playing defensive and campy.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think Rosalina is the hardest character to play in the game and Diddy is one of the easiest. Man Diddy is so good it's absurd.

 

[Vipermoon]

What could we do to have Marth in top-high w/o being broken?

To be high tier Marth needs fixed hitboxes on Dolphin Slash, Fair, the Jabs, Ftilt, Utilt, Uair, and a few others. He also needs better autocancels (not Melee/Brawl's; that's overkill). Other than that, improvements to Dancing Blade 1, Dsmash, and Dash Attack and he's high tier.

If you want him to be high-high tier you'll increase the damage of his throws and take off a couple of frames off the end lag of and/or slightly change the knockback of Dthrow and Fthrow.

Don't make his Fair less laggy and only increase damage on Dsmash, DB3 down, and if knockback is adjusted, Utilt.

No separate things can be a major change because you really have to be careful with this character.

 

[Kaladin]

Every character is easy to play. Just plug in the controller, hover over them, press A, and start the match. Yall mean play well, or play competently. No character is easy to play competently. Why? You can have all the knowledge and tech skill in the world, playing sheik, vs my day 1 ganon. If I successfully condition you, you're gonna git rekt. In order to function at anything above a mid level, you must play your opponent, not your character. You won't be Dthrow fair fair-ing if you never get the grab.

 

[bc1910]

Initial dash's carry into your run though. Thats sort of a problem for a character like samus who's run speed is significantly less then her dash, and doesnt have very good options from dash. But for like say Diddy Kong it doesnt matter that his max speed is less then sonics because he starts faster and will be faster for the first several frames of run too.

Im certain this is why we see sonics feel more comfortable with playing defensive and campy.

All true, but the length of the dash is still a factor lol. Multiple factors come together to make sure Samus' dash speed is still bad-ish overall.

I think campy Sonic comes down to a number of reasons. Mostly the fact that despite the unusually slow initial dash, his run speed is still pretty much unreactable so he can just wait for you to overextend and punish, and you can "overextend" against Sonic far more easily than you can against, well, everyone else except maybe Sheik (needles). Even just shielding at the wrong time can lead to Sonic dashing in to grab you and it's hard to react to.

Ultimately campy Sonic is the safest way to play him and also the most effective so that's why we see it. I don't think aggressive Sonic was ever amazing in Sm4sh outside For Glory, it was hard to get used to but his run speed is still the problem, not Spin Dash or any of his other stuff.

 

[Cassio]

Yes his ability to punish from most parts of the stage is certainly important part of that. I guess what I was trying to point out is that Sonic isnt really that comfortable in close quarters. His good ftilt and jab save him from being mauled at close range, but hes not the kind of character that wants to close space and then try to challenge your reaction time, preferring to punish something you do instead. I do think he has more room to grow as an assertive character though just in a different way.

 

[juddy96]

Hey guys. Clearing up what happened at Hyper Sumabato, particularly with Ginko. I watched the entire stream and he played 3 sets on stream. He used ROB vs. Nijoruri (Rosalina), Pacman against Edge (Sheik), and Mewtwo against Ranai (Villager). According to Abadango he had used ROB the entire tournament until match against Edge. Also, Abadango said this was Ginko's first ever offline tournament. That is very impressive. If you have any questions about the tournament, I can most likely answer them

 

[DunnoBro]

Anyway does Duck Hunt even have true combos that don't rely on shenanigans with the can?

He has a few actually, just none of them come anywhere near killing.

Fthrow > Fair/Dash attack
Pigeon > Whatever aerial you want, or usmash around 0%

A lot of duck hunts don't delay between the clay hit and shots which is what makes things combo better. Unfortunately at higher percents with DI you're generally only getting fair, maybe bair/nair on fast fallers. (at low percents on fast fallers it actually true combo into dair... but dair is so weak, do this offstage and you'll probably get punished. Onstage, too weak to ground bounce so again, getting punished)

Dthrow > Fair at higher percents isn't a true combo but they'll never air dodge it if they're smart and the fair isn't getting beaten by nairs.

After 80% though he doesn't really have any combos or good set-ups and will just be desperate to kill.

 

[bc1910]

Yes his ability to punish from most parts of the stage is certainly important part of that. I guess what I was trying to point out is that Sonic isnt really that comfortable in close quarters. His good ftilt and jab save him from being mauled at close range, but hes not the kind of character that wants to close space and then try to challenge your reaction time, preferring to punish something you do instead. I do think he has more room to grow as an assertive character though just in a different way.

Totally agree. Ftilt and grab are both good, jab is okay, but he doesn't really have a vast array of strong close range options. A certian Sonic main said this to me week 1 of the game and I laughed it off as him trying to defend his newly top tier character, but he was totally right. Sonic does not want to stay in your face. I think grabbing is by far his best option, jab isn't that safe (especially for a jab) and doesn't lead to much reward (no useful jab reset stuff as far as I'm aware). AFAIK he doesn't get much off Ftilt either even though the move itself is good. Even with grabbing, DI can mess up his throw follow ups.

I also think Sonic has room to grow as an assertive character but it won't be as an in-your-face rushdown type, it'll be closer to the hit and run style we saw at the start of the game's life. Whereas right now his style is just... run.

 

[DunnoBro]

I disagree sonic's jab/ftilt isn't too great reward. His speed and options lets him tech chase or cover landings, even edgeguard. For a basic jab/tilt, I think he's this character that makes the most of it.

I personally like the new sonic. Before he was camp for damage with spindash, kill with backthrow. Now he's a lot more mixup and edgeguard based. I just wish he got a little more reward for mixing up.

I really hope they change homing attack to act more like the custom surprise attack. That thing was super underrated since it still homed in after an air dodge/invincibility, meaning during ledge snaps it could challenge the 1-frame grab and in general just be a consistent air dodge punish that could kill via based knockback if close to the blastzones (or stage spike)

As it is homing attack is way too linear with way too few setups. It seems like the PERFECT "I thought you'd air dodge so I used this" move but it just doesn't work for that purpose.

 

[Djent]

on Bum's stream

Also Nebulous got 182 entrants holy crap

 

[Kaladin]

on Bum's stream

Also Nebulous got 182 entrants holy crap

Off topic, but when is Nebulous? Google doesn't seem to know.

 

[san.]

on Bum's stream

Also Nebulous got 182 entrants holy crap

Not impressed, but glad more people are using him.

 

[Djent]

Yeah Blue Terror looked strong game 1 but then Zee pretty much adapted to his grenade patterns.

Off topic, but when is Nebulous? Google doesn't seem to know.

Umm, it's on right now...lol.

If you meant "where" it's at a venue in SE Manhattan.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's U-air is a fun move. The Tipman will always make people slide, allowing it to be used in combos like this. This is guaranteed by the way, you can't tech platform falls.

Quick question: Do any other characters have stuff like this? I'm curious, cause just from what I've tested it can extend combos to ridiculous degrees. I've been getting guaranteed 66% combos off a grab at 0% with only a single opportunity to tech.

 

[Planty]

So I just have a quick question about OoS options.

Let's take little mac's jab. It's a frame 1 move. Shield drop is 7 frames. Does that mean that if Little mac decides to do a drop shield to jab, would it take 7 frames or 8 frames for the jab to connect?

 

[FullMoon]

Ganon's U-air is a fun move. The Tipman will always make people slide, allowing it to be used in combos like this. This is guaranteed by the way, you can't tech platform falls.

Quick question: Do any other characters have stuff like this? I'm curious, cause just from what I've tested it can extend combos to ridiculous degrees. I've been getting guaranteed 66% combos off a grab at 0% with only a single opportunity to tech.

This was a long time ago so stuff might have changed since then but still.

 

[Djent]

Pretty sure has some nice platform fall setups, though fortunately the worst of them are gone now.

 

[bc1910]

I can't pretend to be a Sonic expert, I don't know exactly how rewarding his mixups are. I just know he doesn't want to be staying in on you.

A character with Sonic's mobility specs is almost always gonna be safer playing heavy bait + punish rather than going in, because even with good mixups, Sonic is putting himself at more risk when going in than he is when sitting back waiting for something to punish. Sonic's offense would have to get dangerously good for offensive play to be optimal with him, something we see in Sheik. Sheik could sit back and camp everyone with needles but she doesn't have to because her offense is THAT good and lets her remain safe. Sheik's offense isn't broken, and her campy playstyle is less optimal than Sonic's (the reward isn't as high) but I don't think it's a bad comparison.

In a perfect world I'd see offensive Sonic buffed and campy Sonic nerfed but I have no idea how to nerf campy Sonic outside of nerfing his run speed which obviously goes against not only his combat persona but his entire character history. And the run speed is where most of the campy Sonic problem lies. I guess you could stop Spin Dash from being able to cancel into shield... might help a bit, but wouldn't fix the whole issue, and I've no doubt would be met with total uproar.

 

[Blobface]

I was mainly referring to having a move that'll slide them off the platform regardless of %, because it's really not practical otherwise. The main reason Ganondorf can benefit from this is because he can set you on a platform at almost any % in such a way that your only option is to tech, and if you miss it/he reads your tech he can slide you off no matter what % you're at and combo you into oblivion. For instance: D-throw --> Dash Attack* --> (they miss the tech) --> FH Tipman (slides off) --> Tipman (jab lock) --> U-smash --> U-air does 66%. The Dash Attack knocks them onto one of Battlefields low platforms, and the first tipman slides them off.

So basically, does anyone else have a move that'll always cause sliding?

Edit: Just to put this into perspective, if there was a Ganondorf with perfect execution, he could land a 100% damage combo that could not be escaped with an airdodge, attack, or jump.

D-throw --> Dash Attack --> FH Tipman --> Tipman --> D-air --> FH Tipman --> D-air --> FH DJ Tipman --> B-air.

Obviously that's impractical and exaggerated (3 tech opportunities, not to mention DI and input requirements), but it does show how well this kind of thing can extend combos.

 

[Djent]

JKT 2-1 over False (of all people)

"Impossible MU, can only win off of inexperience," etc. etc.

EDIT: NOPE I lied, must have been someone else because this match just happened now, and ... sorry.

 

[randomguy1235]

I'd agree with you some months ago but most of the characters that were actually worse than DDD got much better thanks to patches, If I start analyzing characters one by one, he might be superior only to these characters :

and that's only a might

He's certainly better than at least half the cast. I'm sure you haven't played with him extensively to make such claims.

 

[CommanderRin]

He's certainly better than at least half the cast. I'm sure you haven't played with him extensively to make such claims.

I wouldn't say half the cast, but I agree that he doesn't necessarily seem flawed or terrible. I think a majority of the lower tier characters feel this way tbh

 

[Trifroze]

It ain't a trap though. Like, what's actually advanced about playing ZSS other than having the reaction times to get upB OoS down?

Having picked up this character recently and practicing her stuff daily I can say that compared to other characters I've played extensively (Falcon, Ganondorf, Robin, MK) she's more difficult to play than any of them. Spacing her aerials properly requires precision you don't need with most characters because nair and bair have a 2 frame hitbox and need to be used within just a few frames before landing to hit the shorter portion of characters, and they have fairly narrow hitboxes. Same with zair, except I believe the 6% sweetspot is only on its last frame and is even harder to connect on short characters, and if you want to hit confirm zair into grab you can't waste any frames trying to react whether you connected or not.

ZSS is also all about optimizing your punishes (since you can reliably remove stocks at 30-50%), hit confirming nair and down smash into flip kick meteor that only meteors at the very tip of the move and using it in general is pretty difficult. Its saving grace in terms of consistently landing the meteor is that it has a 6 frame active hitbox. Regardless, the only players I see being capable to fully utilize this are Nairo and Choco. In Umebura 18 recently Choco must've gotten 50% of his kills with down b which was pretty amazing. So many people are praising ZSS for her up b but down b is even more powerful for getting early kills unless you're playing on Halberd, Delfino, Town & City or in some cases Dreamland.

If you misspace your aerials or fail hit confirming things into maximum punishes you have failed to play ZSS properly, and a lot of the time that's what will be happening unless you have a lot of experience and awareness with the character. I'm really feeling it.

 

[Vipermoon]

So I just have a quick question about OoS options.

Let's take little mac's jab. It's a frame 1 move. Shield drop is 7 frames. Does that mean that if Little mac decides to do a drop shield to jab, would it take 7 frames or 8 frames for the jab to connect?

8 frames. 7 for the drop then on the next frame jab comes out.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I can't pretend to be a Sonic expert, I don't know exactly how rewarding his mixups are. I just know he doesn't want to be staying in on you.

A character with Sonic's mobility specs is almost always gonna be safer playing heavy bait + punish rather than going in, because even with good mixups, Sonic is putting himself at more risk when going in than he is when sitting back waiting for something to punish. Sonic's offense would have to get dangerously good for offensive play to be optimal with him, something we see in Sheik. Sheik could sit back and camp everyone with needles but she doesn't have to because her offense is THAT good and lets her remain safe. Sheik's offense isn't broken, and her campy playstyle is less optimal than Sonic's (the reward isn't as high) but I don't think it's a bad comparison.

In a perfect world I'd see offensive Sonic buffed and campy Sonic nerfed but I have no idea how to nerf campy Sonic outside of nerfing his run speed which obviously goes against not only his combat persona but his entire character history. And the run speed is where most of the campy Sonic problem lies. I guess you could stop Spin Dash from being able to cancel into shield... might help a bit, but wouldn't fix the whole issue, and I've no doubt would be met with total uproar.

Completly agree with this, except for the fact that Sonic has good mix-ups on his attacks. Fair it's like Pikachu's Fair. Multi-hitting head move that can chase you all the way to almost the corner of the stage, good for edeguarding and kills. Back Air is so damn good for Stage spikes or just getting rid of people. Nair it's good for a hit confirm into Spring into Uair. The same with Uair. You just need a hit confirm, then do this combo again and you have 2 results: Safe landing on the stage or killing your opponent. But there's also DI and you can get Bair or Fair again depending on it. Up Tilt it's a good baiting attackbecause you can do: Nair into U-til. And since the move comes quick you can bait an air dodge and get the same. Or even get the true combo from Nair to U-til into Up Air or Fair.

Sonic has a lot of mix-ups on his attacks and can be used deffensively or offensively. It's really interesting and makes him more complex. I really hate campy Sonic though. You guys may say that he's good and everything. But I just don't see it. As I said before, I haven't been in any real tournament or anything. Only online tourneys from a group of Facebook. But I just can't see how Campy Sonic can be so good if you're going to get predictable with Spin Dash + Shield and running. Yes, you can play him this way. But then everyone will know how the match-up goes and how to win. Making this playstyle boring and beatable. My words will echo through the future... Nah just kidding lol. But seriously, I don't think campy Sonic will last for long. Maybe a Sonic changing his playstyles to fit the situation they are. But campy Sonic will not last long. The same with campy Rosalina. She is good but then everyone understands how she works in her playstyle, she won't be any trouble. Sorry for the wall of text though.

 

[Kaladin]

Can we talk about how default WiiFit just kinda bodied False's Sheik?

Edit: accidentally posted this before they finished the set lol. Still, WiiFit can do things.

 

[Ghostbone]

When will people believe me that Wii Fit's better than Falcon >.>

I really hate campy Sonic though. You guys may say that he's good and everything. But I just don't see it. As I said before, I haven't been in any real tournament or anything.

Go watch staticmanny.
I don't think you really understand anything about high level gameplay tbh.

 

[Kaladin]

^^I could see that, especially after the buffs. Just theory, though.

 

[Jabejazz]

He's certainly better than at least half the cast. I'm sure you haven't played with him extensively to make such claims.

Right back at ya homie.

 

[hypersonicJD]

When will people believe me that Wii Fit's better than Falcon >.>


Go watch staticmanny.
I don't think you really understand anything about high level gameplay tbh.

As I said, I haven't been in a real tournament or a high level competitive scene. And even when I watch Seagull he seemed really aggresive the last time he played in a tourney. He was one of the campiest Sonic's in the game. I will match more Manny to understand how Campy Sonic works though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I don't think you really understand anything about high level gameplay tbh.

Was that really necessary?

 

[Nu~]

When will people believe me that Wii Fit's better than Falcon >.>
.

This is interesting...explain!!

 

[Pazx]

WFT is "good" (read: horribly underrated) but I still think she's in the bottom half of the cast whilst Falcon is definitely top half so I don't really see it.

Was that really necessary?

Given that we're here to discuss high level ("competitive") gameplay I'd say it's relevant. It may be rude and standoffish (and thus not suitable for this forum) but it's painfully obvious that a few people who contribute little to this thread (in terms of quality, not quantity) are very inexperienced. @ hypersonicJD isn't the biggest offender by any means, but a lot of people can learn from this. Reading > posting unless you can contribute something meaningful.