Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

If remembering Rival Schools makes you old, then... bro. Come on. You're killing me here. I played SF2 in the arcade. I got so hype when SSF2 was released.

Smash 4 has enough character diversification at the highest levels that it's interesting. I mean, we have way more chances in this game of a Q type messing with the high tiers. It makes it all exciting.

You old ****

 

[Shaya]

I'm surprised you think ADs are too strong. I thought most metagame-relevant characters (and borderlines) had good frame traps available to them. (Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Mario, etc)

Basically the only ones. ZSS isn't even "great" at frame trapping air dodges either; she has the second half of uair frame trapping into the first half (if you're maneuvering in that direction [hint: nairo will always jump facing backwards when he plans to uair]) everything else is way too slow to beat air dodge into general freedom.
Sheik is a character with, in contrast to most, silly long-active aerials.
Mario's aerials have negative end lag.

But as you seem to note, yeah, the best characters have options against the omnipresent air dodge. Or, at the least have consistent enough reward out of punishing their landings when they mess up.
In a game with in general, a lot of landing lag and terrible auto cancels on aerials, the ones that don't suffer this tend to be the top tiers.

Like, in ways of design, the removal of L cancelling and the expansion of auto cancels in Brawl was really really clear to see. It was hard to find an auto cancel on someone's aerial that didn't follow a logic for what is optimal timing and usage (Sakurai's comments of "literally doing every frame myself" was completely transparent in his work).
When you look at smash4 numbers you just see "Sheik's fair being ridiculous to a point of not making sense" and "maybe X frames less than the end lag for an auto cancel [I see 8 often]" on other characters. In other words floating in the air doing nothing 80-90% of the time or you're punished, unless you're using Sheik.

 

[Illuminose]

Sheik being in the bottom half ...........?

Playing a basic Sheik that uses forward air and needles is easy.

Playing a Sheik with actual optimized/depth of combos, using all of her options in different situations, use of all her different techs/movement options, and actually killing at decent percents is hard. You don't go even or win every matchup if you don't know all of the matchups. Getting that kind of realistic matchup spread requires the ability to play the character with a solid defensive needle game and a solid offensive rushdown game, and the ability to transition between those. Good Sheiks make her look seamless and fluid, but it takes a lot of dedication for the character to play like this.

 

[Asdioh]

No character is truly "hard to play" if you've been playing them since release, and have the muscle memory at this point. I've been playing Kirby since 64, so I think he's easy as heck to play. I'm familiar with his mobility, frame data, range, etc. I think ZSS is really awkward to play, but if I'd been playing her since release, I wouldn't. I thought Falcon felt extremely weird at the beginning of smash 4 compared to brawl, but now I'm used to it. There are probably people who think Kirby is exceptionally easy to play, until they have to learn how to use ~55 B moves, and any ATs that might come with them, or how to use a command grab with a slow floaty character, or how drastically his combos and kill setups change depending on rage and his opponent's weight and gravity, or getting used to one of the few UpBs that doesn't ledgesnap and won't grab the ledge if you're facing the wrong way, or a DownB edgeguard that will kill you if you don't press B again, or press it too soon or too late, or mash it, etc. Then, like others have said, the difference between difficult to play and difficult to win with is a thing... but really smash is designed to be easier to play than traditional fighters at a basic level, and it is. And there's nothing wrong with that!

Also, it'd be neat if airdodges followed the same rules as ledgegrab invincibility; you get only one, until you hit the ground or get hit.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is a great character at frame trapping air dodges too and he can get a lot of reward from doing so as well, such as frame trapping an airdodge into an Up-Air Spike and killing with D-Smash if the percent is high enough.

The more people airdodge, the easier they make Greninja's life.

 

[Shaya]

No character is truly "hard to play" if you've been playing them since release.

I didn't feel comfortable using her in tournament for like 3+ months of me learning her. I still find Zero Suit awkward to play. On a very frequent basis I sit down and mash out fast aerial timings while managing movement because it's toooooooooooooooo easy for you to be just 1 or 2 frames off and suddenly be a useless whiffing string of fluff in the air, it's like constant maintenance/oiling the engine.
Meanwhile I sat down with Sheik for a week and won tournaments with her. It could just be the difference in fundamental base skills, but oh well.

Greninja is a great character at frame trapping air dodges too and he can get a lot of reward from doing so as well, such as frame trapping an airdodge into an Up-Air Spike and killing with D-Smash if the percent is high enough.

The more people airdodge, the easier they make Greninja's life.

There is a difference between frame trapping an air dodge and baiting an airdodge.
Unless Greninja's up air has that little lag.

 

[Nu~]

Bait airdodges Pac's with side B.
Catch the scrubs that try to air dodge before the line is fully drawn

 

[FullMoon]

There is a difference between frame trapping an air dodge and baiting an airdodge.
Unless Greninja's up air has that little lag.

Ah, my mistake then. I'm still not all that good with this stuff.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja can sorta-kinda frame trap airdodges with Uair spike by fast falling the move, since it has low landing lag or none at all if autocancelled. You can trap into Utilt, Usmash is usually too slow. But if you have the time to set up the true Uair frame trap then for the most part you could have just true comboed someone so I usually just go for that. Like, you can set up that trap after Nair, but why would I go for Uair spike (trap starter; may or may not hit depending on if they airdodge) > Utilt > Uair when I could just take the free 19% Usmash true combo?

You can repeatedly frame trap with Utilt to Uair spike at some percents I guess. That's probably the most useful true airdodge frame trap Greninja has.

 

[Djent]

Potentially of interest to some of you (*cough* @ Nu~ *cough* @DunnoBro)

Hyper Sumabato has and in top 8 without Abadango or Brood. Also of note is revolving-door #4 (at least), putting to bed the myth that "Japan just doesn't have good Rosas."

 

[MachoCheeze]

Bait airdodges Pac's with side B.
Catch the scrubs that try to air dodge before the line is fully drawn

I like throwing apples up to catch air dodges personally. Especially if it's near the top blast zone it's an easy way to catch a KO

 

[Nu~]

Potentially of interest to some of you (*cough* @ Nu~ *cough* @DunnoBro)

Hyper Sumabato has and in top 8 without Abadango or Brood. Also of note is revolving-door #4 (at least), putting to bed the myth that "Japan just doesn't have good Rosas."

YES!!
A Pac-Man other than Abadango. We need fresher flavors of Pac.

Please tell me he used his Pac-Man against the rosa and sonic mains that he beat.

I like throwing apples up to catch air dodges personally. Especially if it's near the top blast zone it's an easy way to catch a KO

More seriously, I like to bait airdodges with Fair and melon. The IASA frames on fair lets you nail the opponent with a key once they are vulnerable again. By throwing the melon up at people, we can catch air dodges since it stays in that spot for so long.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

No, I don't think so. The "homogenized" comment kinda nails it imo - you know how to play Pikachu? Then you also have a 90% of Fox' basics down as well. If you know what do as Diddy it's not very hard to pick up Sheik or Captain Falcon from there.

But then you really don't. Fox's lack of QA kinda throws him into a completely different character. What you're talking about is the fact that all of the top tiers are brawlers and they all have a similar goal and sweetspot; which is close and personal. If Marth and villager at least were top tier along with the rest, we would see a change somewhere (Idk honestly, I just know something would a different).

 

[Wtfwasthat]

"Brain dead" is the opposite side of "honest": you're a worse person for playing this character.

Also, 90% of smash 4 players don't even edgeguard yet, of course they're going to stick with guaranteed strings. Give it time.

This is why I think luigi will eventually drop to like top 15 in the tier list. People dont take advantages of a characters clear weakness yet.

 

[teddystalin]

YES!!
A Pac-Man other than Abadango. We need fresher flavors of Pac.

Please tell me he used his Pac-Man against the rosa and sonic mains that he beat.

He only went R.O.B. against the Rosas and Mewtwo against Ranai. If he went Pac, it was never on-stream.

Edit: I am a liar.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah what would happen to the metagame in another universe if Marth was top tier (we'll say #1 in the game)?

What characters would be affected the most and how would the game be generally different?

It wouldn't be healthy because a top tier Marth would be the counter to Luigi, Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Ness, Yoshi, Rosalina, Fox, Mario, Falcon... I can go on and on. I can't imagine any character in any tier is good enough in this game to counter Marth either. A lot of the things in Brawl that Marth hated are completed gone.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Granted that there are probably a few intricacies that have yet to be discovered, the game's skill floor isn't particularly high.

The skill floor will DEFINITLY get higher as the skill level of the top players increase and the more they research and lab out characters.

 

[Djent]

He only went R.O.B. against the Rosas and Mewtwo against Ranai. If he went Pac, it was never on-stream.

What about Edge in WF? Or his win over Komorikiri?

 

[teddystalin]

What about Edge in WF? Or his win over Komorikiri?

Whoops, I stand corrected there. I was pretty much asleep at that point. Still, Abadango mentioned in the chat that Ginko was going R.O.B. most of the time now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also of note is revolving-door #4 (at least), putting to bed the myth that "Japan just doesn't have good Rosas."

When did that rumor start spreading anyways?

Kirihara has placed well for months and nobody cared >_<

 

[Djent]

Whoops, I stand corrected there. I was pretty much asleep at that point. Still, Abadango mentioned in the chat that Ginko was going R.O.B. most of the time now.

I'm asking you lol, I didn't catch the stream. I'm going off of a generous translation by @juddy96.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yeah what would happen to the metagame in another universe if Marth was top tier (we'll say #1 in the game)?

What characters would be affected the most and how would the game be generally different?

It wouldn't be healthy because a top tier Marth would be the counter to Luigi, Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Ness, Yoshi, Rosalina, Fox... I can go on and on. I can't imagine any character in any tier is good enough in this game to counter Marth either. A lot of the things in Brawl that Marth hated are completed gone.

I think you're over exaggerating. Marth I know shouldn't be able to completely wall out characters without a counter to it. Maybe he could have amazing anti air options and juggling (idk the character, please forgive me for ignorance) and a even quicker jab and tilts. Marth in melee works out completely fine since other top tiers can get in, but a good Marth keeps them out.
A top tier gunner is something I would die for however.

 

[teddystalin]

I'm asking you lol, I didn't catch the stream. I'm going off of a generous translation by @juddy96.

His set against Komorikiri was off-stream, so idk. He went pac in winners finals though and did pretty well against Edge's sheik, considering the matchup.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah what would happen to the metagame in another universe if Marth was top tier (we'll say #1 in the game)?

What characters would be affected the most and how would the game be generally different?

It wouldn't be healthy because a top tier Marth would be the counter to Luigi, Sheik, Diddy, Pikachu, Ness, Yoshi, Rosalina, Fox... I can go on and on. I can't imagine any character in any tier is good enough in this game to counter Marth either. A lot of the things in Brawl that Marth hated are completed gone.

You have a point... Pit's a good glimpse into that world considering the similarities. Right now he has only a handful of -1s and nothing worse then that.

Of course, top tier Marth would kinda obsolete Pit, so that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Nu~]

His set against Komorikiri was off-stream, so idk. He went pac in winners finals though and did pretty well against Edge's sheik, considering the matchup.

Maybe because the matchup isn't as hard as people say it is...

Anywho, that sucks that he's focusing more on ROB. And why would he go Mewtwo against ranai? He's tall, floaty meat for villager to wall out. Confusion isn't nearly enough

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Personally, I find Greninja and Shulk are both very difficult characters to play as since they have slow ground moves and aerials. This makes it difficult for me to play the neutral with these characters since most of the moves I use with these characters are very reactable and punishable despite not having much endlag. Characters with a high short hop ZSS are also pretty difficult for me to play as since I often just whiff their short hop aerials.

 

[Jabejazz]

The skill floor will DEFINITLY get higher as the skill level of the top players increase and the more they research and lab out characters.

Skill ceiling will increase. Not floor. The basics don't get any more complicated as characters get fleshed out on a high level.

 

[Vipermoon]

And I think you guys are under-exaggerating.

Melee and Brawl has plenty of broken characters. That was what stopped Marth. Smash 4 has absolutely no broken characters (that's why I'd never put someone in S tier).

A top tier Marth that:

• Has the autocancel and landing lag of a god (basically how it used to be)
• Which will make his juggling absolutely crazy
• His damage per hit will be higher
• Hard to punish for almost anything
• A Fair that makes Sheik's look like crap
• A scary grab game to go with his grab range and non-tether grab
• Things will combo into Dair and better combos into Fsmash

Will be absolutely devastating. It's not the swordfighters that were the problem. It's the sword fighters with absolutely impeccable character design like Marth and Meta Knight that they were afraid of.

 

[Ffamran]

On another note, why does a single Needle from Sheik lift you off the ground? Also, are there any notable players who play a campy Sheik? I'm not talking about defensive, cautious, smart, whatever Sheik players, but campy. By campy, I mean a Sheik who uses nothing, but Needles, slaps you with Fair if you get too close and may finish it off with a Bouncing Fish or something, does do Sheik things, but generally runs away and Needles you to the right percent.

 

[FullMoon]

And I think you guys are under-exaggerating.

Melee and Brawl has plenty of broken characters. That was what stopped Marth. Smash 4 has absolutely no broken characters (that's why I'd never put someone in S tier).

A top tier Marth that:

• Has the autocancel and landing lag of a god (basically how it used to be)
• Which will make his juggling absolutely crazy
• His damage per hit will be higher
• Hard to punish for almost anything
• A Fair that makes Sheik's look like crap
• A scary grab game to go with his grab range and non-tether grab
• Things will combo into Dair and better combos into Fsmash

Will be absolutely devastating. It's not the swordfighters that were the problem. It's the sword fighters with absolutely impeccable character design like Marth and Meta Knight that they were afraid of.

I don't really follow your point. Are you talking about what if Melee/Brawl Marth was ported straight into Sm4sh? Because any character can become broken if you want to do it, not just swordsmen.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

And I think you guys are under-exaggerating.

Melee and Brawl has plenty of broken characters. That was what stopped Marth. Smash 4 has absolutely no broken characters (that's why I'd never put someone in S tier).

A top tier Marth that:

• Has the autocancel and landing lag of a god (basically how it used to be)
• Which will make his juggling absolutely crazy
• His damage per hit will be higher
• Hard to punish for almost anything
• A Fair that makes Sheik's look like crap
• A scary grab game to go with his grab range and non-tether grab
• Things will combo into Dair and better combos into Fsmash

Will be absolutely devastating. It's not the swordfighters that were the problem. It's the sword fighters with absolutely impeccable character design like Marth and Meta Knight that they were afraid of.

We're not talking about restoring Marth to his former glory. I'm not specifically at least.
EDIT:

Skill ceiling will increase. Not floor. The basics don't get any more complicated as characters get fleshed out on a high level.

depends on your definition of skill floor. Mine is when you just got into competitive play, so the requirements of actually doing something notable gets higher as players get better.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

On another note, why does a single Needle from Sheik lift you off the ground? Also, are there any notable players who play a campy Sheik? I'm not talking about defensive, cautious, smart, whatever Sheik players, but campy. By campy, I mean a Sheik who uses nothing, but Needles, slaps you with Fair if you get too close and may finish it off with a Bouncing Fish or something, does do Sheik things, but generally runs away and Needles you to the right percent.

Of the world-class Sheik players Rain is the one who comes closest imo.

Note though that no top level Sheik player actually plays that way. I don't think it really works. You can play campy and run away-ish with her very well but not exclusively.

 

[Vipermoon]

We're not talking about restoring Marth to his former glory. I'm not specifically at least.
EDIT: depends on your definition of skill floor. Mine is when you just got into competitive play, so the requirements of actually doing something notable gets higher as players get better.

Not a restore. He'd still be smash 4ified with the lower damage and other differences/nerfs. A full restore would make him god tier

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Not a restore. He'd still be smash 4ified with the lower damage and other differences/nerfs. A full restore would make him god tier

What could we do to have Marth in top-high w/o being broken?

 

[Illuminose]

Of the world-class Sheik players Rain is the one who comes closest imo.

Note though that no top level Sheik player actually plays that way. I don't think it really works. You can play campy and run away-ish with her very well but not exclusively.

This is true. You have to be able to exert more pressure than needles and fair because a fair string isn't that much damage. If you do 4 fairs you get ~20% (16-25% to be more precise depending on which htibox you get). Needles are ok damage but not really enough. You need to get grabs and different pressure than a pure defensive game so that you can convert to more damage. At low percent, needles are really ineffective on hit and you can get anywhere from 30-50% off a grab or forward tilt depending on the character. Campy needle Sheiks also have trouble killing. Defensive needles and fair aren't enough. You need a balance of offensive and defensive play to work with this character.

 

[Cassio]

It's a lot worse in smash 4 than in Brawl or Melee

In brawl, MK plays very differently to snake plays very differently to Ice climbers plays very differently to Diddy, to Olimar, to Falco, etc.

In smash 4 the top tiers just feel like slight variations on the same theme. And the rest of the cast are mostly just weaker versions of them...

lol, sorry but this comment is full of it. Grabs in every smash game are stupidly OP, aside from Luigi now Smash 4 has the lightest grab game abuse. The only way you could contend this is if you include non-viable characters in melee/brawl who didnt have good grab games.

Edit with more:
Smash 4 has way less homogonization then melee and brawl when you observe the whole cast. The problem is that the best characters tend to have the same traits, which honestly happens in every game. Calling Diddy, Snake, Olimar and Falco different is looking at Brawl with some thick rose tinted glasses, all those characters just threw **** at you until they hit you, then grabbed you, then owned you. Characters like Marth and MK were barely much different just replace throwing stuff in your face with fairing in your face. Melee had its own nonsense too (dash dance the game).

Obviously its not that simple but neither is smash 4

More Edit:
Also yeah roll and airdodge are slightly too good, but Brawls spot dodge and Melee's movement mechanics (dash dancing mostly) definitely put hard caps on what characters were capable of being good way more then rolls and air dodges in this game.

 

[hypersonicJD]

lol, sorry but this comment is full of it. Grabs in every smash game are stupidly OP, aside from Luigi now Smash 4 has the lightest grab game abuse. The only way you could contend this is if you include non-viable characters in melee/brawl who didnt have good grab games.

Totally agree with this. Melee with Popo and Nana was so damn OP and it was a stock. Also Chain Grabs were really OP in Melee.

 

[Cassio]

Also pikachus entire aerial kit frame traps airdodges. My favorite one is Fair, forces them to airdodge to avoid all of its hits and still has virtually no endlag to allow punish with his other 3-4 frame aerials.

 

[CourageHound]

I dunno, I'm not as bothered by grabs in this game as much as some. While the reward gained from them are extremely easily earned, I'm at least thankful not too many too many high/top tier characters get a direct kill from the grab(kill throw) or a guaranteed kill confirm from the grab.

 

[randomguy1235]

Dedede certainly isn't among the bottom 10 characters in the game...He's a mid-tier character with great strengths with very mediocre frame data that holds him back.