VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

KirbyKaze

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Basically, ICs don't have an attack that covers the space above and in front of them very effectively. Floating with aerials is therefore a very strong general strategy against them, with where you can occupy.

Beyond that, just kill Nana with some semblance of efficiency since FC nair > more FC nair > fair her out of her DJ is a death combo and you can fend off her lover easily enough.

If you d-smash an ICs' shield, WD OOS grab can kill you. So don't be reckless with d-smash if they're decent. Dash attack is bad for similar reasons, as is wake-up attack.
 

knightpraetor

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If you d-smash an ICs' shield, WD OOS grab can kill you. So don't be reckless with d-smash if they're decent. Dash attack is bad for similar reasons, as is wake-up attack.
this used to cost me matches.. anyone who is an IC main is going to be reasonable adept at killing you for spamming dsmash, so make sure you can use some of your other moves too. Dsmash spam is kind of autowin against non-IC mains, so it becomes a bad habit if you start relying on it
 

Jayk

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Basically, ICs don't have an attack that covers the space above and in front of them very effectively. Floating with aerials is therefore a very strong general strategy against them, with where you can occupy.

Beyond that, just kill Nana with some semblance of efficiency since FC nair > more FC nair > fair her out of her DJ is a death combo and you can fend off her lover easily enough.

If you d-smash an ICs' shield, WD OOS grab can kill you. So don't be reckless with d-smash if they're decent. Dash attack is bad for similar reasons, as is wake-up attack.
Do you mean floating and doing aerials without actually landing?
 

Jayk

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Ah.
If you don't mind, any tips for dealing with solo Popo? I often have more trouble than I'd like taking down Pop even after Nana is dead (like you said, she is comically easy to kill).
 

KirbyKaze

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Ah.
If you don't mind, any tips for dealing with solo Popo? I often have more trouble than I'd like taking down Pop even after Nana is dead (like you said, she is comically easy to kill).
The difference between SoPo and dual-ICs is mainly that Popo can dash dance for distance and with a tighter space more freely. They also tend to emphasize grabbing less and go for more actual attacks, especially ones like bair and uair.

So some specifics.

ICs tend to like dual SH bair AC into d-smash (and other goodies) as shield pressure. This is because the delay in Nana's bair is convenient on a shield to allow Popo to get an action in. They tend to do a lot of aerial > ground attack stuff like this as the dual ICs; Popo this is less good, so expect them to dash away to fish for grabs and such.

Grabbing SoPo is pretty solid since they like to shield approach. D-smash is worse at piercing the single shield relative to the dual ICs' shield because of some reason (probably hitlag related) so grab a lot. SoPo has a pretty crap recovery so anything that makes him go offstage is strong in general.

Edgeguarding just be aware that you can vertical kill him as he goes overhead with u-smash and uair at some percent to avoid having to do the bair / fair until like 180%. You can dair them out of up+B sweetspot attempts, but if he's going for it then just hog it. SoPo gets no vertical recovery on up+B. Beware of airdodges, but that's all you really need to worry about.

SoPo can't blizzard so attacking him is easier in the sense he can't make a hitbox wall while actioning. But his access to dash dance makes it difficult to play a better movement game. Focus on maintaining good float posture and not being grabbed. Wall him off and prevent him from going around. Control the middle.

Turnips if he camps.
 

AozoraX

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One thing I noticed about IC's (having played them unfrequently) is that they love to do Shield Advances like it's been and love to DSmash as much as Peaches do. The best part is? IC's hold down a lot, but yeah, it's true that overboard dsmash will make you wish you never thought about it.

When Nana is dead though, just get the guy off the edge and watch him use Squall to get back and just keep throwing him back off until it's a kill. When an IC is alone they're sitting ducks to pretty much everything if you had a beyond easy time making sure Nana blew up. But those grabs man.... Those grabs.
 

Jayk

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The difference between SoPo and dual-ICs is mainly that Popo can dash dance for distance and with a tighter space more freely. They also tend to emphasize grabbing less and go for more actual attacks, especially ones like bair and uair.

So some specifics.

ICs tend to like dual SH bair AC into d-smash (and other goodies) as shield pressure. This is because the delay in Nana's bair is convenient on a shield to allow Popo to get an action in. They tend to do a lot of aerial > ground attack stuff like this as the dual ICs; Popo this is less good, so expect them to dash away to fish for grabs and such.

Grabbing SoPo is pretty solid since they like to shield approach. D-smash is worse at piercing the single shield relative to the dual ICs' shield because of some reason (probably hitlag related) so grab a lot. SoPo has a pretty crap recovery so anything that makes him go offstage is strong in general.

Edgeguarding just be aware that you can vertical kill him as he goes overhead with u-smash and uair at some percent to avoid having to do the bair / fair until like 180%. You can dair them out of up+B sweetspot attempts, but if he's going for it then just hog it. SoPo gets no vertical recovery on up+B. Beware of airdodges, but that's all you really need to worry about.

SoPo can't blizzard so attacking him is easier in the sense he can't make a hitbox wall while actioning. But his access to dash dance makes it difficult to play a better movement game. Focus on maintaining good float posture and not being grabbed. Wall him off and prevent him from going around. Control the middle.

Turnips if he camps.
Thank you :)
Very helpful
 

Armada

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Since you seem to really feel comfortable in the matchup (and cause you're like, the god of Peach) could you give some advice on how to beat ICs?
This Falco main I play against all the time has recently picked up ICs and somehow they are countering me really hard :confused:.

At first I wanted to chalk it down to matchup inexperience, but after playing him ~3-6 hours a week for a month I haven't made much progress...
FC fairs is around 95% of the MU.
Float and then land with good spaced fairs.

If you hit them go for another one (chase them across the stage). Nana is super stupid and always jump in the same kind of timeing off stage so gimp her is also free.

If you don't hit with the fair (because they shield) DON'T go for d-smashes or something like that. Just go up in the air and float again. ICs is getting pushed away from the fair so you have nothing to worry about. ICs can't grab you if you are in the air so avoid ground moves when they are at the same spot (of course fast fc nairs is really good if you already have them separated).

FC fair (That hits)> FC fair
FC fair (dosen't hit) > Float again and prepare for a new fair

That might sound very simple but the MU works that way. I do have at least enough experience in the MU since my crewmate is a ICs main and we played kinda much a few years ago and I have played vs Wobbles in friendlis/a MM/ tournament so Im convinced this strategy is super good.
 

Armada

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Meant more like they can't grab you if you are high enough. The height you gain from a full jump is approximately where you wanna float vs ICs and up there it is impossible to grab her.

So guess I typed it that way to put more attention to NOT stay grounded vs that char.
 

AozoraX

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Any tips and tricks vs Dorfs? Getting bair walled with no room REALLY sucks. And oftentimes I try to run to grab a turnip and I get nailed by a fair to the back of the head. I know the matchup but I guess I don't know it enough.
 

Babatunde

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Meant more like they can't grab you if you are high enough. The height you gain from a full jump is approximately where you wanna float vs ICs and up there it is impossible to grab her.

So guess I typed it that way to put more attention to NOT stay grounded vs that char.
Out of curiosity, how many controllers have you gone through in your smash career?
 

Armada

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Advices vs Ganon: Not entierly sure. For me it feels like that character is just so bad so everything works against him :p
But yeah of course it is very important to know the spacing on how far Ganons jump + fair is. That is one of the very few things you have to worry about in the MU I feel.

Also learn the spacing so you always pull turnips when it's safe (so he can't punish you for pulling them).

Run away then quick jump back into him with a short jump turnip into fc nairs is super good ( time it after he lands with a fair or just in you standard normall game). Once you are close to ganon don't stop approach him since he has so bad options overall.


Babatunde: My first controller was one I had for a very long time. I had it from the christmas of 04 to a few months after Genesis.
After that my controllers started to broke WAY faster. So I maybe used another 7 or 8 controllers after my first one (RIP my favorite controller =( )

But yeah I would guess around 8-9 in total. Kinda funny that my first one hold for around 5 years. My second and third for approximately for 1 year each. Then around 5 controllers in the last 1,5 years :p
 

Armada

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Will not be able to afford them =D On a serious note though. The controllers from the early gamecube days and controllers from the later part is DIFFERENT. I once said this because I felt the controllers was not as good anymore. Most people saw it as a joke or something but AJP later confirmed it was small changes inside of them. It's just the controll stick that is/was my problem. 1-3 controllers I did change from even if they were not broken. That's because how the controll stick did feel while playing with it. Every stick feels different and I want my controlsticks to be in a certain way (hard to explain) and if they are not I play way worse. So even if the controllers technically worked they didn't for me so had to switch :p
 

Ryobeat

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I have two questions I would like answers for, if someone may. Please be detailed!

1. What do you do vs a Fox that isn't jumping? This fox doesn't shield TOO much, but he does. When I float with a fair, he usually waits for it, and I can't call his jumps because he doesn't do it often. I want to punish him just as hard though, but I don't know what to look for. Any words of advice?

2. Also, vs Doctor Mario; what do you prefer(is better, dependent on style)? The Floating aerial game or the grounded game? I would make a comment, but I've never played doc, but I'm really interested in knowing.
 
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I think:

1. This is way too vague. You're saying he is waiting for you to F-air? If he isn't shielding or jumping, I guess I'll assume you're missing? Stop missing. You're probably missing because he is baiting you somehow and you're taking it.

2. I guess you're talking about in the neutral game? I like to stay close to the ground, but most of the time I am floating, usually with B-air, which beats most of his moves, including his pills.
 

Babatunde

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Quick Question, How do you play the Peach ditto I have been having some trouble feeling it out.
1st off, be careful when dsmashing cause when the other tries to dsmash you, whoever gets it out first will deal big damage to the other Peach who is trying to get it out at the same time. When you expect it, counter it with a quick FCed fair. Lastly, best way to edgeguard a Peach as Peach is to float to her while/if she is floatng off screen and nair her. Or float under her and uair her if she is coming back with parasol

Im sure this isn't all there is to it though, just speaking from current experience.
 

SpiderMad

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Will not be able to afford them =D On a serious note though. The controllers from the early gamecube days and controllers from the later part is DIFFERENT. I once said this because I felt the controllers was not as good anymore. Most people saw it as a joke or something but AJP later confirmed it was small changes inside of them. It's just the controll stick that is/was my problem. 1-3 controllers I did change from even if they were not broken. That's because how the controll stick did feel while playing with it. Every stick feels different and I want my controlsticks to be in a certain way (hard to explain) and if they are not I play way worse. So even if the controllers technically worked they didn't for me so had to switch :p
What was wrong with your original controller that made you switch after so many years? AJP confirmed the control sticks are more durable because they have a 2nd inner prod or something: but I agree whatever it is the new White and Platinum controllers have insensitive sticks that I don't like(although supposedly last longer because of the 2nd thing) among other things I don't like, like the rubber textures and size differences/button spacing.
 
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I'm not too familiar with the Peach ditto, but I know that FC F-air doesn't come out faster than D-smash, so I hope he means to float over the Peach and punish her lag, and that if you try to D-smash and get D-smashed, you can react and DI so you only get hit once. When edgeguarding peach I would probably try to get her to commit to float, and threaten her with B-air and turnip spacing.
 

Armada

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What was wrong with your original controller that made you switch after so many years? AJP confirmed the control sticks are more durable because they have a 2nd inner prod or something: but I agree whatever it is the new White and Platinum controllers have insensitive sticks that I don't like(although supposedly last longer because of the 2nd thing) among other things I don't like, like the rubber textures and size differences/button spacing.
The controll stick stopped working after 5 years. I could not even dash with the controller anymore =/
I really wanted to play with the controller for a longer while so I tried but eventually I gave up realized that this controller had nothing more to give.
 

OliClutch117

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1st off, be careful when dsmashing cause when the other tries to dsmash you, whoever gets it out first will deal big damage to the other Peach who is trying to get it out at the same time. When you expect it, counter it with a quick FCed fair. Lastly, best way to edgeguard a Peach as Peach is to float to her while/if she is floatng off screen and nair her. Or float under her and uair her if she is coming back with parasol

Im sure this isn't all there is to it though, just speaking from current experience.
Thanks for this the main problem was that he could always get out a dsmash faster than I could and I couldn't figure a way around it. Is there any specific way to play you're turnips in this matchup?
 

OliClutch117

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I tend to brutlalize the sticks I'm shocked it still works after all the abuse I put it through. It took me forever to get used to the feel of the newer stick and I'm still not the biggest fan, but it's holding on for me so I'm just going to use it till it dies.
 

ShroudedOne

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I switched out my sticks only twice in my entire life, and that was because I'm unable to play without the rubber on them. This stick I've had for perhaps over a year now, and I still haven't had to replace it (whereas I replaced my first two in the first year of me playing this game). I guess it's because I don't play twice a week like I used to.

I've only ever changed out controllers once. Somehow, I'm good to my controllers (or they're super duper durable). Considering my luck with everything else, I think it's the latter.
 

Xyzz

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Well, you can certainly be nice to durable controllers and it helps. Friend of mine is still using the same controller since 10 years (although the years before they got me into melee were pretty tame in terms of excessive controller usage ;) ) and it's still in top shape...

Me on the other hand... ~2.5 years of melee, three controllers, two completely busted stick boxes...
I'm back to using my first one, which I bought used on ebay. I had stopped using it, because the stick was in a kinda shaky state ... but I managed to get it back into working shape again (stick box cleaning with q-tips and replaced the rubber because the top of the stick could be freely rotated :D). I couldn't play f zero or sth with it, because it has the hugest deadzone ever, but since my tilt inputs are just below the range where it'd register as a smash anyways it doesn't really bother me for now (:
 

Babatunde

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I bought a new controller from game trader and within two weeks of me using it the rubber came off completely. It was like a new one and it didn't have the GameCube controller logo on top of it, Though it had the exact same design as a normal one. Then after like five days of using it, the control stick just broke completely! So should I just buy used ones online from now on? If so then what other reliable website should I trust besides eBay?


@OilClutch117 I think you should just spam them in the air so you actually can commit her to float. That way, If you are on a platform stage like BF and she resorts to going for platform, you can FH nair her, or if you got a turnip, FH, throw turnip at her, then nair. Safe way to avoid a dsmash from her through platform if you are not FHing through it and kinda flashy too :D
 

AozoraX

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Nintendo logo or bust, man. Or you could go Mad Catz and pretend you care?

Anyway, thanks Armada. We just had a tournament here in Calgary (Otafest: Assault) and I did pretty hot for Melee. Nailed top 5 but lost to Sheik. Because y'know, dat Sheik fallback...

M2K came into our Facebook thread and wanted that cash LOL
 

Babatunde

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Lol, well reason why i did say used is because another thing with this "New controller" is that it wasnt worn out. It had like a barrier feeling as i moved the Control stick for the first time and it really put a hamper on my playing. Is that some new control stick feel or does this go back to the whole "No nintendo logo" fiasco?
 
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