VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Xyzz]

Well, Yoshi isn't Roy... so of course he can win, if you're simply a much better player than your opponent, or that guy doesn't know the matchup. :D
Shield drop > waveland should even be faster than WD oos, because you don't have to deal with jumpsquat, which means the sliding on the platform starts frame 2 <3

 

[Purpletuce]

Actually, due to Yoshi's DJ sending him down at first, and the technique being harder to perform, usually it takes around the same amount of time or slightly longer than the average character's WD OOS. It is also worth noting than in a good amount of situations (punishing people attacking your shield), because of Yoshi's air mobility you're better off just double jumping at them then N-airing as you rise or sharking under the platform with U-air. Sometimes you're just in a position you don't like, but you still want on a platform, which is when you would use waveland oos. . .

ANYWAY, I'm not trying to take over this Peach discussion. . .

 

[Nintendude]

There are Yoshi players?

Look up "Lil Fumi"

 

[Xyzz]

I really like aMSa from Japan as well :D

 

[Babatunde]

Vectorman puttin in work with his streams though.

 

[DoH]

**** luigiiiii

 

[Xyzz]

Luigi's free. Annoying to play against, but free.

Don't make me lose faith in you by saying that you've lost to one

 

[Purpletuce]

So we're listing Yoshi players? Current (competitive) Yoshis that I know of: Lil Fumi, Amsa, V3ctorman, Angel, imimaru, myself. There are also several people around with Yoshi secondaries. . .

People do play him, I think he can be played as well as any other mid tier, he just is much harder to start out playing, and as you learn him there are a good amount of things you need to/should learn which are hard. When I had been playing Yoshi as a main for over a year, and playing Falco as a secondary for a month, I felt like I played both of those characters at about the same technical proficiency.

 

[DoH]

It was my first tournament back in two months of no play!

 

[Xyzz]

No Johns!

Nah, well, that kind of thing can always happen (I mean, Ice managed to have a hard time with a freaking Kirby :D)... I'd still be soooo mad if I were you :D

 

[DoH]

Luigi does really well against peach because he preys on your instincts to trade and do stuff out of shield

 

[ShroudedOne]

Luigi v Peach is dumb (Luigi himself is a super linear character that is boring to fight against and has an unimaginative playstyle). And not as free as you would think, either.

Aozora, I haven't forgotten about you. Sometime this week, I promise.

 

[Xyzz]

I agree that Peach shouldn't fight Luigi like he was a space animal or sth, or she'll have a bad time. However I think he's actually rather bad against her, because he can't really do **** about her playing campy and just hitting him with fairs / turnips till he wants to rage quit (I have actually timed out Luigi on DL ;x :D)

 

[DoH]

If you go into fair height he can wd in and fsmash/utilt you. You can't just fair camp him

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, you kind of just have to play with a lot of turnips to cut his WD, and fair/bair wall him. Still, his "mobility," immunity to trades, and how much his grabs hurt (I think he can kill us from them?) make it an understandably annoying matchup.

And I won't say his shield pressure is good (it's...odd, though), but like DoH said, it's not difficult for him to time responses against our standard oos reactions.

And yeah, his WD kind of inhibits float camping him. I feel like you have to be super reactive and not get obvious with how you're jumping into your float. Though, tbh, I'd recommend just throwing turnips at his face until he gives up.

 

[Xyzz]

If he's close enough to WD in to punish me for setting up float, he's close enough for me to move in that range where he's hard pressed to do much of anything (closer than his wd, further away than his tilts) and see what to do from there. I think their ingrained standard choice for that is usually to WD back and reset the situation, which obviously leads to Peach being able to set up her float.

 

[john!]

luigi necessitates the booty treatment

fair just can't in this matchup

nair is ok but his > yours so watch yourself

 

[Babatunde]

Non wavedashing luigis in PM are pretty easy to deal with.
Ya know, with buffed dair and all.

 

[Bones0]

Nintendude was floating below the ledge vs. me at my last tourney, and while I was waiting to react to his up-B to roll from the ledge he uaired to fake me out. So I saw the uair, rolled early, and he got back. I just thought it was really cool so more Peaches should do that (unless it's more common than I thought, but no one had ever done that to me before).

 

[john!]

i've done that before and i think i've seen another peach do it too

usually it's not worth it since your umbrella will hit them before they can react, but it's a good option vs. asians

 

[Ryobeat]

Questions:

1. What is your goal when you at high percent after you kill a fox to get maximum damage? There is no crouch canceling of course, float camping will be poked with nair/bair or some form of UpTilt; so what do you guys do? I try to shield/powershield attacks while wavedashing back to try to squeeze in a dsmash(Usually the thing I look for) Are there any other alternatives?

2. To what extent do you crouch cancel Fox's Nair>Shine approaches? Can you CC dsmash before the shine comes out? I never know exactly how long to crouch for/what to do out of it vs Fox. I usually miss my Dsmash or do something stupid.

3. How do you attack a Fox that's in the lead while being safe? My idea is throwing upairs around his escape patterns to platforms. Turnips are also good, but a good Fox will not let you pull many. How can you trap him with turnips. Sometimes I try to throw turnips on the ground level and Nair him over the turnip if he jumps, but I usually get hit. Is that just my predictability? If so, what are some other methods? I would also think baiting but I don't really understand how I would do that vs Fox. Can someone explain that to me?

4. Times when I should Dash Attack? I usually beat the fox I train with, so there are time where he will be dash dancing and I just run farther than usual to dash attack him. I don't think that works. When I play a good fox, he ends up shielding it. I get the assumption that dash attack should not be used as an approach tactic vs Fox; only to punish his mistakes but not necessarily to approach.

5. The difference between FC Fair approaches and Low Bair approaches; If I could guess this myself, I would say that low bairs are not necessarily good approaches as opposed to walls to push him into a corner, but let's say for instance that I am approaching with them. What options am I covering with these two and how are they different. I would think Bair is just a quick move that comes out fast, has alot of priority, and takes away some of the space fox is allotted. FC Fair to me seems more of the trap. It limits his aerial options and tries to place an attack where you think he will be. Can someone add to this idea?

Mainly I ask of you guys to elaborate more on what I have/fact check what is wrong. You don't have to answer all of the questions, whatever information you give me is appreciated! :3

 

[Ryobeat]

i've done that before and i think i've seen another peach do it too

usually it's not worth it since your umbrella will hit them before they can react, but it's a good option vs. asians

Sorry for double post, but to add to that; Besides the fact that parasol has more priority, most Peaches shouldn't be going low to begin with(for the most part), it depends on character/situation. What character were you using? Do you have a video of it?

 

[john!]

i honestly forget, it's just something random i decided to try.

if i were to guess though, it would probably be good vs. marth and falcon

and sometimes you've gotta go low because you have no other option, lol

a related technique of mine is that when you are facing someone who is either standing still or shielding, you should CROUCH and then instantly react to what they do

edit: sorry ryo i thought you were responding to me since you quoted me

 

[Bones0]

I was Falco, so I probably daired him under the stage when he was at a low enough percent to DJ before he died. I don't remember for sure though.

 

[Babatunde]

What IS the best way to get back on stage with peach?
I know FCed fair back on is high risk high reward, and i have an idea that you should not be above the stage with parasol. How reliable is goin for the ledge?

 

[kalamazhu]

Sorry for double post, but to add to that; Besides the fact that parasol has more priority, most Peaches shouldn't be going low to begin with(for the most part), it depends on character/situation. What character were you using? Do you have a video of it?

1. This is smash... there is no 1 strategy to rack up the percents. Peach has an amazing punish game and has many ways to rack up percent easily. bait an approach and fair him. WD back dsmash, dash attack, grab, etc. are some of your options you don't need to rely on CCing even though it is very strong.

2. not sure about this one but don't try to CC too much only CC weak misspaced hits and jabs at low percentages IMO.

3. Double jumps are key to beating a campy fox. It is rly good at cutting out escape routes. Also don't be afraid to Counter pick Yoshi's if you lose to a campy fox.

4. Dash attk is a very good move for interrupting dash dances. It is too fast to react to shield it so u will force them to guess. It is also good for use in combos.

5. FC Fair is superior to low bair because FC fair is at the right height to avoid your opponents moves and fair has a l of range. low bair only in tight situations it is rly fast.

What IS the best way to get back on stage with peach?
I know FCed fair back on is high risk high reward, and i have an idea that you should not be above the stage with parasol. How reliable is goin for the ledge?

recovering with peach is one of the most overlooked parts of her game...
FC fair is amazing to getting back on the stage. However, It takes very good spacing and timing to do it right (don't be dumb with it...)
sometimes doublejump nair or uair can catch people offguard if they are trying to edgeguard you. Going for the edge is a fairly safe option however peach has an awful time getting from the edge to the stage so keep that in mind. air dodges can be really good but don't overruse them because they can be read pretty hard. if you are hit high u can just double jump and float high enought that they can't edgeguard you and try to work your way to the ground.

I hope I helped a little bit!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Look up "Lil Fumi"

I tried. Couldn't find anything.

Maybe I should take the "chain grab food" filter off of my search parameters?

 

[Purpletuce]

Shiek is just as susceptible to be chaingrabbed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Incidentally I don't really watch other Sheiks.

Except M2K I guess.

 

[darkatma]

There are no other sheiks. There is only Kirbykaze.

 

[Babatunde]

recovering with peach is one of the most overlooked parts of her game...
FC fair is amazing to getting back on the stage. However, It takes very good spacing and timing to do it right (don't be dumb with it...)
sometimes doublejump nair or uair can catch people offguard if they are trying to edgeguard you. Going for the edge is a fairly safe option however peach has an awful time getting from the edge to the stage so keep that in mind. air dodges can be really good but don't overruse them because they can be read pretty hard. if you are hit high u can just double jump and float high enought that they can't edgeguard you and try to work your way to the ground.

I hope I helped a little bit!

It did, I have been dumb with FCed fair XD (falling to my doom).
So basically when im sent flying horizontally all my options are air dodges, FCed fair, floating, and the ledge, but i just have to remember to mix it up alot?
Also working my way back to the ground isn't that hard, but when im coming down vertically is it safe to use air dodge to land back on still?

 

[KirbyKaze]

There are no other sheiks. There is only Kirbykaze.

Flattering. But for the moment I still have to respect M2K as the most skilled (ab)user of her abilities.

Something Armada did vs me in our matches was FJ with his back-jump rather than his stationary jump. This gave him a lot more mobility for moving away from me when I was trying to mount an offensive. FJ back-jump also allowed him to keep his positioning just outside my bairs way better than any Peach I've seen, which kind of nerfed my usual gameplan vs Peach tremendously. It's really good; the fact you can use it to initiate your float after you've eliminated a few of the common jump in options based on her positioning gives it a lot of power. It also seemed to open up a lot of angles for him to bair and set up soft uairs that I didn't know existed, or hadn't seen used effectively enough to be factored into my spacing.

I think I saw him back-jump FJ out of pivot and shield pivot a bunch of times but I'm not sure if he was just styling on me or not. Either way, it seems reasonable. Especially for controlling platforms; I feel her back-jump animations move her more than her stationary and dash jump animations.

Peach's ledgejump is one of her better options, just remember to hold back so you don't appear right in front of your foe and make sure they are respecting your attacks from the edge (umbrella, ledge attack, etc) so you have room to do it and don't just get faired or such. Ledgestalling isn't a bad idea either, since you have a lot of timings to work with on your Up+B and can land onstage with it within a big window. Against characters in general, you have a good shield and not many can auto-combo you from throw so landing onstage in a manner that allows you to block their whatever is ideal if you can't hit them or juke them. Remember: the longer you drag out the recovery while not taking critical damage, the better; you win partially by grinding peoples' patience (and it's better than being hit by Fox's u-smash anyway). Against Sheik (who ruins this by having the godlike 2-step throw KO) just hope their reactions are imperfect because her great grab makes this complicated; if possible, try to make her chase you offstage and Up+B her or something (her air mobility is poor so if you can get her to overextend, it might be your best bet). Don't know other characters well enough to really say, though I find recovering vs Falcon and Marth tends to work better if you land just barely onstage because of how they seem to like to keep distance for dash dancing and to space out your ledge attack (when you're below 100).

Thought I'd contribute some thoughts on this character.

 

[ShroudedOne]

"Something Armada did vs me in our matches was FJ with his back-jump rather than his stationary jump."

It did seem like he was able to evade a lot of your attacks this way, and it sets him up in a really good way to FC fair you (or just float in general). And yeah, her back jump makes her more mobile than you'd expect her to be.

I used to think ledgejump sucked. But then I realized we don't have much on the ledge, and I started to appreciate it more.

The important thing to remember when recovering with this character, IMO, is that you have time. Don't rush coming back. Against someone like Marth or Falco, it'll feel pretty hopeless most of the time, because you just keep getting hit. But, like KK said, avoid crits and you'll be fine.

Also going to cosign what Kzhu said on taking campy Foxes to Yoshi's Story. Just DI his uthrow full behind and DJ/airdodge out, and don't fall into upsmashes. And you shouldn't die (though FoD is the better option here, if you don't like the stage [like me] or it was banned, YS can be considered here).

 

[kalamazhu]

It did, I have been dumb with FCed fair XD (falling to my doom).
So basically when im sent flying horizontally all my options are air dodges, FCed fair, floating, and the ledge, but i just have to remember to mix it up alot?
Also working my way back to the ground isn't that hard, but when im coming down vertically is it safe to use air dodge to land back on still?

If I have a choice I would go for the the FC fair. remember to be patient. For example if a falco is edgeguarding you with sh bairs just wait till he does a bair and then go in with a FC fair whereas an immediate FC fair would get hit by the bair. It pays to be patient.

air dodge is never a safe option, but it is a gamble. If they see it coming then they punish if they don't it's hard to punish. Just don't become too predictable when trying to get to safety.

@shrouded
yep idk i like yoshi's better than FoD for some reason (i'm not really sure why). I just feel very comfortable with the layout of yoshis

 

[ShroudedOne]

Cause it's dumb.

 

[Xyzz]

I hate FoD with any character that's not Peach. But with her, it's a great stage (:
Especially since it's so annoying to deal with for the other guy :D

 

[Nintendude]

In recovery situations I've been having success with staying out of range of Bair, whiffing a Fair while still floating, and then float canceling a 2nd Fair right after the first one. The first Fair seems to get you enough space to get back on stage.

 

[kalamazhu]

In recovery situations I've been having success with staying out of range of Bair, whiffing a Fair while still floating, and then float canceling a 2nd Fair right after the first one. The first Fair seems to get you enough space to get back on stage.

lol u play peach?
and interesting.. noted and will try

idk FoD messes me up more than you'd expect... Low platforms make it rly hard to set up for a FC fair cus you have to land on the platform instead of the ground

 

[ShroudedOne]

I actually think that vs spacies Yoshi's empowers her combo game with uairs (and in general) a lot better than FoD. It's just that FoD enables more downsmash debauchery, the ceiling is high and the blastzones are tight (so it empowers our edgeguarding while leaving us with room to live), and we can control the entire stage with a float (YS shares this). But yeah, I think the platforms can mess up Peaches who don't have a style that utilizes them, I think.

 

[Nintendude]

lol u play peach?

Yes, in doubles and for some singles matchups like Samus.