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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

Silly Kyle

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
2,769
Location
Tucson, AZ
Hey Peaches, check out my set vs WestBallz from Kings of Cali 2 this past weekend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8SiOqy3HeQ

@Ryobeat

I'm not really the best at giving advice but I'll try lol.

Being in Arizona, you probably shield drop like a beast. How exactly do you use them? How do you feel about them with Peach in general?

I’ve recently started using shield drops and I’m not as solid at doing them like Axe, Vectorman, and others in my state. I use them to get off platforms because I find myself getting stuck on them sometimes when I’m in my shield. I think they are important and whenever I watch Armada do them, I realize that I need to start using them more. It will make you stronger as a player and your platform game will be even better.

In your matches vs Axe, what are your top 3 things to remember to fight Pikachu? I need some help :c

1) Float cancel everything and space your aerials
2) Watch out for his SHFFL’d nair approaches.
3) Stay away from the ledge when Pikachu grabs it. He has some invincibility frames when he wavelands back onto the stage and can murder you violently.

I'm sure there are some other things I could probably add. Idk, ask MacD, he's beaten Axe plenty of times.


What is the difference between bair apporaches/fair approaches? There is clearly a difference, but I can't mentally decide how and when to use each by myself.

This is a good question. Generally, when I'm approaching with fair, I'm usually floating higher off the ground compared to when I'm approaching with bairs, which are usually ground floated or closer to the ground than fairs. Fairs can cover more space and the hitbox for that move is pretty janky since it goes above her, in front of her, below and behind her. So you can do get a lot of things going with that move if you space correctly with float and time it properly so that you get the desired hitbox range you need to **** ******* up. Bair is generally a good way to apply pressure to someone's shield and to wall out people from getting in.
 

OliClutch117

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
141
Location
Altimonte Springs Fl
Nice job at Kings of Cali Silly Kyle. How do you deal with the Falcon matchup my friend who I frequently play with has recently been beating me with Falcon.

So how do you deal with Falcon?
 

AozoraX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
95
What exactly is the shield drop? How is it performed?
It's when you're holding shield and anytime after the first few frames you tilt the Control Stick about 40-50% down and you'll drop minus the tumble frames. It's not easy to do consistently but it's quite fun to do.

And Falcons deserve dash attacks and downsmashes. Avoid the Bair wall like the plague and outspace the knee. Good Falcons space the knee and hit with a Fsmash if you try to shield grab (happens a lot to me).
Also I posted some videos a couple of pages back for critique, I was wondering if anyone saw them and would like to help me out? :D <3
 

PandaCobo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
91
Location
Fresno, CA
It's when you're holding shield and anytime after the first few frames you tilt the Control Stick about 40-50% down and you'll drop minus the tumble frames. It's not easy to do consistently but it's quite fun to do.
So how practical is it and what would you use it for?
 

AozoraX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
95
So how practical is it and what would you use it for?
It can be quite UNpractical in a tense situation where it's more or less safe just to get the hell of the platform while you're being pressured. It's very nifty to do on people who come from above; they don't see it coming. I've done it to a Marth spamming tilts on my ass once and it was great but I never could do it again OR out of shieldstun. I have issues with that. But it's pretty slick if someone notices.

Also, the two videos I would need help with from anyone are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js4ZPZqB-d4 vs Falco (Losers Finals)

and

http://youtu.be/dGt8rjYc28k vs Sheik (Winners)

Thanks in advance <3
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I can watch them later today or tomorrow, I guess.

For a long time, I've held that Puff/Peach is quite doable and just needs to be played differently. Helps if you learn to like the matchup.
 

Cia

das kwl
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8,231
Location
Top of the Tier List
Wow.. I just love KirbyKaze's sig.

BTW, I've decided I'm just going to relentlessly camp Jigglypuff. My usual aggro style vs her is just too frustrating. Camping can be fun when your intent is to make the match as miserable as possible lol
 

Cia

das kwl
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
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lol welcome to 6 months ago macd.

speaking of things that are old but am just now noticing, John!'s friend code lol. 0420 XD

which ironically.. is tmr -_-
 

Armada

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
1,366
I know this is the same technique as last time I gave a random advice but I do think using DJC out of shield might be pretty good if people are using DD on a close range.
 

Babatunde

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So you're saying DJC oos removes the lag for any move you may want to do oos basically?
I get it now, thnx :D
You don't need it for wavedash backwards though.
But anyways, Yay! I know a new skill!
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
It doesn't remove the lag, it's just a bit faster than letting go of shield and sitting through the unshielding animation.

The wavedash back after the djc would mostly be a "oh snap, now that I did the dj land oos, I see that I can't hit them, so I better give them some stage and regroup"-thing for me.
 

Babatunde

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I see bout the djc wavedash situation.
When i said lag, i was referring to the unshielding animation.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
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Messages
5,493
Also, the two videos I would need help with from anyone are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js4ZPZqB-d4 vs Falco (Losers Finals)

and

http://youtu.be/dGt8rjYc28k vs Sheik (Winners)

Thanks in advance <3

So first thing I notice after watching for a bit, is that you're really uncomfortable with your tech skill. At 0:06, for example, you land after hitting him with a float > dair and just freeze up in shield. Not something you ever want to happen, especially against Falco (at least it looks like you froze up, dunno if you had a plan, but if you did you didn't execute). Practice moving fluidly out of all of your moves when you're grinding tech skill. Practicing things like FC aerial > dash away/jump/wavedash really help to get your fluid movement down after doing a move.

At 0:09, you saw Falco, after shooting a few lasers, come in with a nair. You then move forward and try to fair, only to get stuffed by his nair. Fair is a very good move in that it knocks down really early, has a lot of range, power, and initiates good pressure, but you don't want to move forward with it in that position (mainly because the startup it has leaves you vulnerable for a while before it comes out). You're essentially running into his move. If you had started the fair while moving back, you would not only have made his nair whiff, but your fair would have caught him in his lag, and you would've had a very favorable situation.

0:21 Here, you have him pressured in his shield, he rolls. Then you float a very low height and get shot out of your double jump (I assume you double jumped to correct the low float? But you'd already floated, it would've been better to land, shield/powershield the laser and float out of shield to regain your position). Basically, don't float that low vs Falco unless you've got him in his shield, because it doesn't offer a good defense vs his lasers.

I'm noticing that you're rolling out of his pressure a lot. This is ok vs Falco, since he's kind of slow, so if he commits onto your shield with pressure and doesn't fade away, you can just roll behind him (like you do at :41). However, this isn't good to use liberally, because if the Falco picks up on this, he can just laser before you get the chance to float (if you don't shield the laser), or hit you with an aerial (like he does right after you roll). Another thing to keep in mind is that you're losing a lot of opportunities to convert something off of his shield pressure (shield grab, nair/downsmash/upB OoS). Rolling is just a way to try to reset the situation, but this isn't always effective depending on where you are, and isn't always optimal, either. So, basically, just mix up what you're doing out of shield, and make sure it's appropriate depending on the pressure he's doing (ask if you want specifics on this).

0:44 That was a bad position to try to fair him. In general, when you're offstage, concern yourself first and foremost with getting back on, not with hitting your opponent. If they try an unsafe edgeguard or throw out a move you can punish, then hit them, but Falco was waiting for it and was in the right spot to punish you.

:50 You could've done a lot more than just run away. On called approaches, Peach can run away > CC > downsmash, or shield > shield grab (judging from his momentum, the grab would've hit him, since her reverse grab hitbox is fairly large), or wavedash away > punish his landing lag. Just to name a few.

:58 From a dash attack at that percent, nair. Uair sends him too far away for anything else. As Peach, you want him offstage much more than you want him above you.

1:02 Good idea, but you weren't spaced well enough away from the getup attack.

1:07 Again, don't try to hit him while recovering. At 1:10 you were too hasty in trying to get back to the stage and got daired. Recovering as Peach requires patience, especially against Falco. Don't be too hasty.

1:16 You've fallen into the Peach trap. You've just taken a stock, so I can pull a turnip now, right? And now you see him coming at you with invincibility, so you shield. Very bad idea. Shielding with a turnip limits your out of shield options horribly. Against invincibility, just do your best to stay away from him, by using high floats, or getting to platforms. You WANT to move when someone is invincible, not shield. Especially not with a turnip. I would personally advise against pulling turnips the moment you take a stock.

1:20 After that dash attack, I don't think you should have rolled. You gave up too much stage there and didn't really initiate pressure. Considering that a dtilt might've killed you, perhaps setting up a float and searching for something would've been better.

1:28 You want to establish pressure, but you're way too low, and so you're getting shot. Maintain that height where he can't SHL you safely, and has to full jump/double jump to hit you (which is very unsafe for him). He has other things he can do (like attempt to bait you with dashdancing), but you can deal with them once you take his laser out of the way.

1:35 You rolled here, and I don't think you should have. You're just keeping yourself in the corner. I feel as though shielding for a bit to see whether he would challenge it or not would've been better, and then you can just wavedash back/FJ out, but it's hard to say. And then you get kicked for trying to defend yourself with dair against his bair.

Not much to say about the second stock you take from him. But then when he respawns, you get hit for throwing the turnip you pulled after killing him, instead of trying to bait his invuln/staying out of the way until it wears off. And it converts into a stock.

2:29 That was a bad angle to approach with bair from, considering he had a lot of stage to work with. And you got shot for it, froze up, and then got comboed. You can't allow yourself to freeze up after getting shot by Falco, it just gives him pressure for free. You could've airdodged away after getting shot, or tried to put up shield when you got down, but honestly that situation occurred because you tried to approach him when he had the majority of the stage, with a low reach move and got lasered in a terrible spot. It would've been better to end your float on the platform, then get off of the platform and try to float from there (jump off the platform and float at a height above his lasers, for example).

2:36 You should've waited for the tech after the dash attack, before you downsmashed. The tech granted him enough invincibility to dodge the entire downsmash and shine you.

2:46 Rather than DJ backwards, you could have simply ended your float and naired him again, to secure the gimp.

2:50 Wait for the laser before approaching him, is usually the rule vs Falco when you're floating above his lasers. If you can make it so he isn't sure of when you're going to land with your aerial, or can bait a laser from him through your movement, then you gain a big advantage.

3:03 When he jumped onstage, you should have dipped straight for the ledge.

So, all in all, you seem to have some idea of the matchup, but struggle in key areas. You've got to float above his lasers. Getting shot out of float does nothing but give him an advantage. To add to that, you can't approach him however you wish in this matchup, just because you're floating over lasers. Wait for him to shoot, wait for him to make himself vulnerable (if he FJs badly, shields, shoots a bad laser). Vary your out of shield options into things that will hurt him (shield grab, aerial OOS, etc) rather than just trying to get away from the pressure. When recovering vs Falco, be VERY careful. He actually has a lot of tools for edgeguarding her (his FJ poops on our high recoveries since dair/bair are extremely dangerous options that he actually CAN reach us with if we go high), lasers kind of cover the middle ground, and dair/downsmash are available for low recoveries (so learn how to ledgetech these). Be patient, try to see what he's going for and avoid him. If you have float, you can afford to stay out a little, try to bait actions from him that you can hit (but don't swing if he doesn't bite). Use your double jump with a lot of judgement. Use it too close to the stage and you'll get hit out of it and won't gain anything height from it. Of course everyone can be hit out of their DJ, but it's easier for Peach to be hit out of hers since it's visibly slow. In general, don't try to recovery high vs Falco if you can help it. And don't try to challenge his aerials (in general, but especially when recovering), since his generally beat yours.

I would recommend working on your combo DI, also. If you can consistently SDI his dair, he won't be able to shine you, and you can get a lot of downsmashes off of whiffed shines (they'll be holding down, too :D) DI his combos down and away, generally. If you can react to utilts, DI those towards him. Also work on your combos vs him. If you can learn how to get Falco from 0-80 or even death consistently, the matchup gets a lot easier for you. For the time being, I'd suggest watching Armada and trying to imitate what he does, watching the percents at which things work/don't work, and things like that.

I'm not really good vs Sheik, so I'll leave that alone (unless you really want me to, I suppose, but that's not really my area). Hopefully this helps. I think I wrote a lot more than I intended, so if none of it does any good, I'll be sad.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
1,366
What can you go into after DJC oos? That's what i don't get.
I could see dash attack working. DJC is very fast and gives you a great chance to interupt their DD. WD back is alright but then you would most likey WD a bit back and lose some space (and it's slower too)
 

Babatunde

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I could see dash attack working. DJC is very fast and gives you a great chance to interupt their DD. WD back is alright but then you would most likey WD a bit back and lose some space (and it's slower too)
I like how you are still here helping other peach players even though you are retired.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
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Mar 28, 2010
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=)

Posting ideas I had but never really put into my game because of me knowing I would retire etc. But yeah someone need to preform super well with Peach so =)
 

Babatunde

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What are the best ways to get back on the stage with peach besides floating then going for the ledge?
Like when are the best times to float then air dodge back onto the stage?
 

K@$h

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
28
Location
WA
@Babatunde
What are the best ways to get back on the stage with peach besides floating then going for the ledge?
Like when are the best times to float then air dodge back onto the stage?
Im not a great peach but i generally try to avoid the ledge, unless i absolutely have too use b/c i have developed a lot on ledge game. i like recovering high and making them waste their jumps trying to chase me, so they cant punish me as well when i land. imo the air dodge back on stage in just intuition, just dont make it readable (learned that the hard way).
 

AozoraX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
95

So first thing I notice after watching for a bit, is that you're really uncomfortable with your tech skill. At 0:06, for example, you land after hitting him with a float > dair and just freeze up in shield. Not something you ever want to happen, especially against Falco (at least it looks like you froze up, dunno if you had a plan, but if you did you didn't execute). Practice moving fluidly out of all of your moves when you're grinding tech skill. Practicing things like FC aerial > dash away/jump/wavedash really help to get your fluid movement down after doing a move.

At 0:09, you saw Falco, after shooting a few lasers, come in with a nair. You then move forward and try to fair, only to get stuffed by his nair. Fair is a very good move in that it knocks down really early, has a lot of range, power, and initiates good pressure, but you don't want to move forward with it in that position (mainly because the startup it has leaves you vulnerable for a while before it comes out). You're essentially running into his move. If you had started the fair while moving back, you would not only have made his nair whiff, but your fair would have caught him in his lag, and you would've had a very favorable situation.

0:21 Here, you have him pressured in his shield, he rolls. Then you float a very low height and get shot out of your double jump (I assume you double jumped to correct the low float? But you'd already floated, it would've been better to land, shield/powershield the laser and float out of shield to regain your position). Basically, don't float that low vs Falco unless you've got him in his shield, because it doesn't offer a good defense vs his lasers.

I'm noticing that you're rolling out of his pressure a lot. This is ok vs Falco, since he's kind of slow, so if he commits onto your shield with pressure and doesn't fade away, you can just roll behind him (like you do at :41). However, this isn't good to use liberally, because if the Falco picks up on this, he can just laser before you get the chance to float (if you don't shield the laser), or hit you with an aerial (like he does right after you roll). Another thing to keep in mind is that you're losing a lot of opportunities to convert something off of his shield pressure (shield grab, nair/downsmash/upB OoS). Rolling is just a way to try to reset the situation, but this isn't always effective depending on where you are, and isn't always optimal, either. So, basically, just mix up what you're doing out of shield, and make sure it's appropriate depending on the pressure he's doing (ask if you want specifics on this).

0:44 That was a bad position to try to fair him. In general, when you're offstage, concern yourself first and foremost with getting back on, not with hitting your opponent. If they try an unsafe edgeguard or throw out a move you can punish, then hit them, but Falco was waiting for it and was in the right spot to punish you.

:50 You could've done a lot more than just run away. On called approaches, Peach can run away > CC > downsmash, or shield > shield grab (judging from his momentum, the grab would've hit him, since her reverse grab hitbox is fairly large), or wavedash away > punish his landing lag. Just to name a few.

:58 From a dash attack at that percent, nair. Uair sends him too far away for anything else. As Peach, you want him offstage much more than you want him above you.

1:02 Good idea, but you weren't spaced well enough away from the getup attack.

1:07 Again, don't try to hit him while recovering. At 1:10 you were too hasty in trying to get back to the stage and got daired. Recovering as Peach requires patience, especially against Falco. Don't be too hasty.

1:16 You've fallen into the Peach trap. You've just taken a stock, so I can pull a turnip now, right? And now you see him coming at you with invincibility, so you shield. Very bad idea. Shielding with a turnip limits your out of shield options horribly. Against invincibility, just do your best to stay away from him, by using high floats, or getting to platforms. You WANT to move when someone is invincible, not shield. Especially not with a turnip. I would personally advise against pulling turnips the moment you take a stock.

1:20 After that dash attack, I don't think you should have rolled. You gave up too much stage there and didn't really initiate pressure. Considering that a dtilt might've killed you, perhaps setting up a float and searching for something would've been better.

1:28 You want to establish pressure, but you're way too low, and so you're getting shot. Maintain that height where he can't SHL you safely, and has to full jump/double jump to hit you (which is very unsafe for him). He has other things he can do (like attempt to bait you with dashdancing), but you can deal with them once you take his laser out of the way.

1:35 You rolled here, and I don't think you should have. You're just keeping yourself in the corner. I feel as though shielding for a bit to see whether he would challenge it or not would've been better, and then you can just wavedash back/FJ out, but it's hard to say. And then you get kicked for trying to defend yourself with dair against his bair.

Not much to say about the second stock you take from him. But then when he respawns, you get hit for throwing the turnip you pulled after killing him, instead of trying to bait his invuln/staying out of the way until it wears off. And it converts into a stock.

2:29 That was a bad angle to approach with bair from, considering he had a lot of stage to work with. And you got shot for it, froze up, and then got comboed. You can't allow yourself to freeze up after getting shot by Falco, it just gives him pressure for free. You could've airdodged away after getting shot, or tried to put up shield when you got down, but honestly that situation occurred because you tried to approach him when he had the majority of the stage, with a low reach move and got lasered in a terrible spot. It would've been better to end your float on the platform, then get off of the platform and try to float from there (jump off the platform and float at a height above his lasers, for example).

2:36 You should've waited for the tech after the dash attack, before you downsmashed. The tech granted him enough invincibility to dodge the entire downsmash and shine you.

2:46 Rather than DJ backwards, you could have simply ended your float and naired him again, to secure the gimp.

2:50 Wait for the laser before approaching him, is usually the rule vs Falco when you're floating above his lasers. If you can make it so he isn't sure of when you're going to land with your aerial, or can bait a laser from him through your movement, then you gain a big advantage.

3:03 When he jumped onstage, you should have dipped straight for the ledge.

So, all in all, you seem to have some idea of the matchup, but struggle in key areas. You've got to float above his lasers. Getting shot out of float does nothing but give him an advantage. To add to that, you can't approach him however you wish in this matchup, just because you're floating over lasers. Wait for him to shoot, wait for him to make himself vulnerable (if he FJs badly, shields, shoots a bad laser). Vary your out of shield options into things that will hurt him (shield grab, aerial OOS, etc) rather than just trying to get away from the pressure. When recovering vs Falco, be VERY careful. He actually has a lot of tools for edgeguarding her (his FJ poops on our high recoveries since dair/bair are extremely dangerous options that he actually CAN reach us with if we go high), lasers kind of cover the middle ground, and dair/downsmash are available for low recoveries (so learn how to ledgetech these). Be patient, try to see what he's going for and avoid him. If you have float, you can afford to stay out a little, try to bait actions from him that you can hit (but don't swing if he doesn't bite). Use your double jump with a lot of judgement. Use it too close to the stage and you'll get hit out of it and won't gain anything height from it. Of course everyone can be hit out of their DJ, but it's easier for Peach to be hit out of hers since it's visibly slow. In general, don't try to recovery high vs Falco if you can help it. And don't try to challenge his aerials (in general, but especially when recovering), since his generally beat yours.

I would recommend working on your combo DI, also. If you can consistently SDI his dair, he won't be able to shine you, and you can get a lot of downsmashes off of whiffed shines (they'll be holding down, too :D) DI his combos down and away, generally. If you can react to utilts, DI those towards him. Also work on your combos vs him. If you can learn how to get Falco from 0-80 or even death consistently, the matchup gets a lot easier for you. For the time being, I'd suggest watching Armada and trying to imitate what he does, watching the percents at which things work/don't work, and things like that.

I'm not really good vs Sheik, so I'll leave that alone (unless you really want me to, I suppose, but that's not really my area). Hopefully this helps. I think I wrote a lot more than I intended, so if none of it does any good, I'll be sad.

This is great. I'm watching the match as I review these. I would like any possible Sheik advice if you can, it'll help us both in that case I guess. And about the specifics about changing things OoS sounds awesome. I always have issues getting out of it and rolling seems to work since he likes to commit to his pressure a lot but he'd eventually strike me out of it. Though I assume the Sheik matchup is going to roughly look the same since they were back to back matches. SUPER appreciate this though S1, the local community keeps saying I'm a stellar Peach but I hardly believe it when I get trucked like this. Sadface. Guess I'll keep studying Armada matches.
 

Babatunde

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I don't think it's that risky because of the FC.
You could shield but that would create a bad habit.
Also theres the chance of you falling to your doom.
 

Jayk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
124
Fox is a jerk.
What are the best stages against him? It seems like every stage that has some positive aspects has negative ones, too.
Like, on Dreamland I live longer but he runs around and laser camps me.
On Yoshi's, I die really quick but at least I can catch him.
On Final Destination, I can change grab and stuff but I also get shined all over and get lasered a lot.
FoD in theory seems good, but I get rocked every time I pick it.
For now, Battlefield is my best shot, which is nice because people often strike there.
 

OliClutch117

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 10, 2013
Messages
141
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Altimonte Springs Fl
Against fox I always strike Yoshi's and then I prefer to play either FoD, PS1 or battlefield is always a good option when as stated it isn't strikes. What problems are you having with FoD?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
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Spiral Mountain
Of course every stage has something Fox can abuse. He's freaking Fox.

I like FoD, BF, and FD vs Fox when I use Peach. But I don't particularly mind any of the others either. In truth, I don't think stage really alters the match that much aside from FD because of the chain grab and the lack of platforms for him during recovery or to edgecancel her dash attack off of.
 
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