DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
It was more of a "really McCain, you're going to go there when I'm homeless" and also like Ben I'm super scruffy right now. Totes masc bro
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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)
- Thread starter Cia
- Start date
MacD
Banned via Administration
yes, yes there is. there are many types of homo. step up your game please
i got the meaning of his gif. i guess some people just don't pick up on things as easily as others
damn though with that call out
and funny enough, i actually meant that in an endearing way. i hella laughed at it and it totally reminded me of you in a good way. i'm surprised you didn't catch that.
either way, i just figured mafia should beware
Xyzz
Smash Champion
And here I was always believing there would be only one kind of homo (the part of the male population that happens to like other men. A lot.)... :D
MacD
Banned via Administration
and now you are trying to troll me??
that's just embarrassing
that's just embarrassing
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I don't troll. Ever.
I'm just making fun at whatever opening people give me
Though the quality of my humor is of course subjective... nah, wait, it's plain bad most of the times :D
I'm just making fun at whatever opening people give me
Though the quality of my humor is of course subjective... nah, wait, it's plain bad most of the times :D
VA
Smash Hero
i have a serious question (might be dumb).
considering FC fair is +4 frame adv on block, how is that using dsmash everytime isbad not like, nearly guaranteed block string/hit? considering dsmash comes out on frame 5 this gives them 1 frame to act. spot dodge isn't long enough in invincibility to outlast the active frames of dsmash and roll comes out on frame 4 so should (in my calculaiton) get hit.
WHY are people able to roll out of FC Fair > Dsmash? I'm assuming this is for not being frame perfect. bi-tch i play street fighter and frame 1 links aren't that hard, i can be frame perfect. how can i measure my margins for error on perfect FC fair pressure on shield > dsmash?
please correct all of the janky calculations above i'm just intrigued
considering FC fair is +4 frame adv on block, how is that using dsmash everytime is
WHY are people able to roll out of FC Fair > Dsmash? I'm assuming this is for not being frame perfect. bi-tch i play street fighter and frame 1 links aren't that hard, i can be frame perfect. how can i measure my margins for error on perfect FC fair pressure on shield > dsmash?
please correct all of the janky calculations above i'm just intrigued
Xyzz
Smash Champion
There's three things you need to keep in mind:
a) hit their shield the moment you land. I think just about everybody drops a few frames there. Reasons for that would include:
- Fair has tons of start up (I think it's pretty easy to see that it's harder to be frame perfect the longer the time frame after which you need to hit the 2nd button is)
- Peach falls incredibly slow (from her short hop height it takes her 7 frames to reach the ground. While fastfalling).
- We do fairs at just about every float height imaginable, and each of course has its own timing (so we don't get to train just one timing and be done with it ).
b) afterwards you need to hit the next button exactly four frames after landing. Which asks you to be frame perfect again of course.
c) your fair is often staled (starts out with 15%. As soon as it's staled to 13% you're only getting +3 adv anymore).
You basically gave all the data you need to "calculate" your margin of error: Dsmash hits on their first frame out of shield stun. Roll is invincible on frame 4, so you get to give away 2 frames (or often just one, because of staleness), if you lose three frames dsmash has a active hitbox the same moment their roll starts being invincible, which of course doesn't get you anywhere
Doing a new input exactly four frames after hitting the ground is pretty doable, but consistently hitting them right the moment you land is super hard, imho.
edit: Oh, and it should be mentioned that it's of course easy for him to be frame perfect with his shield roll, since he can just c stick buffer it.
a) hit their shield the moment you land. I think just about everybody drops a few frames there. Reasons for that would include:
- Fair has tons of start up (I think it's pretty easy to see that it's harder to be frame perfect the longer the time frame after which you need to hit the 2nd button is)
- Peach falls incredibly slow (from her short hop height it takes her 7 frames to reach the ground. While fastfalling).
- We do fairs at just about every float height imaginable, and each of course has its own timing (so we don't get to train just one timing and be done with it
).b) afterwards you need to hit the next button exactly four frames after landing. Which asks you to be frame perfect again of course.
c) your fair is often staled (starts out with 15%. As soon as it's staled to 13% you're only getting +3 adv anymore).
You basically gave all the data you need to "calculate" your margin of error: Dsmash hits on their first frame out of shield stun. Roll is invincible on frame 4, so you get to give away 2 frames (or often just one, because of staleness), if you lose three frames dsmash has a active hitbox the same moment their roll starts being invincible, which of course doesn't get you anywhere
Doing a new input exactly four frames after hitting the ground is pretty doable, but consistently hitting them right the moment you land is super hard, imho.
edit: Oh, and it should be mentioned that it's of course easy for him to be frame perfect with his shield roll, since he can just c stick buffer it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fair's startup actually works to its advantage in some ways because it allows you to start the fair while floating, check to see if the opponent did something and then decide when it's appropriate to fast fall. The fact that you retain that option (when you drop to the ground) allows you to do your fair really close to the ground if you recognize that they're shielding or cannot directly challenge it in that situation. It is doubtful that you will get +4 this way but +1-2 seems reasonable.
If this doesn't make sense, think about all the times you float naired at height 3 or 4 and fell into a shield, only to be shield grabbed or something. Now imagine if you could place your nair somewhere during your fall, rather than the peak of your jump. While still retaining the AC landing, of course.
If this doesn't make sense, think about all the times you float naired at height 3 or 4 and fell into a shield, only to be shield grabbed or something. Now imagine if you could place your nair somewhere during your fall, rather than the peak of your jump. While still retaining the AC landing, of course.
john!
Smash Hero
really?? i thought knockback staling was only a brawl thing. only damage gets staled in melee, right...?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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Damage is a direction component of shieldstun. So the less damage you do, the less shieldstun you do, and thus you don't get as much advantage.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Unrelated: I'm having trouble chaingrabbing fastfallers with away di. Right now I just dash attack. Should I just keep dash attacking? Also, any ideas on how to improve on the cg?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,560
are you using dash grab?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Let's clarify this then:
Melee keeps a list of the last 9 moves that you've recently used to hit somebody (I keep forgetting whether hitting stuff like shy guys also stales moves, because idgaf :D). The damage done by the move is calculated according to the list positions with the first position staling the move by 9% down to 1% at the 9th slot. And there's a cap that ensures a move does at least about 66% of his unstaled damage.
So e.g. you've just respawned and hit your opponent with fair and then jabbed him. If you hit him with another fair now, that one is going to do 15 * (100% - 8%) damage, which would equal to 13.8%. I'm not really sure how melee rounds, who cares anyways.
Far more interesting is: The shield stun (and consequently the frame adv. you get) is calculated using the staled damage of the move, but it doesn't stale the move. So you can fair his shield over and over and it won't change the staleness of the fair.
Also highly interesting: KK has compiled a list of the correlation between the damage a move does and the frame adv. it yields on block here: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/
Practice, obviously :D
Just take a low level cpu and try to chaingrab them. Note that you have all the time in the world (ok, admittedly it's more like 20 frames) to see where they're flying off to and then dash in that direction, because that's about as long as it takes for Peach to finish her throwing animation. I think level1 Fox and Falco do full DI away each time after the first regrab, so you can't really practice how to check for their DI that way (although that's super easy anyways, so it's not too bad), but you can surely practice to input the dash right on your first actionable frame.
You can use dash attack as a weaker substitute but the chaingrab is usually clearly the better choice, since it's one of the few chaingrabs in the game easy enough to be consistently performed
Also: use dash grabs and not JC ones. But as a Yoshi main you don't have the strange idea to jc every grab just because you can anways, eh? :D
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I *think* the cap is at .55? Not 100% sure, though.
Level 3s seem to be the best for me to practice CGs on spacies/Falcon, as they DI away. Alternatively, you can go into Training Mode and set the CPU action to "Evade." They'll constantly run away from you, but when you grab them, this will result in them full DI'ing away from you.
A little visual cue I've been using to improve my CGs is noticing that when Peach upthrows, she swings her hand back behind her on the opposite side of where she was facing when she grabbed. I input the dash right after I see her hand go away.
Dunno if that'd help you get the timing, but I figured I'd post it.
Level 3s seem to be the best for me to practice CGs on spacies/Falcon, as they DI away. Alternatively, you can go into Training Mode and set the CPU action to "Evade." They'll constantly run away from you, but when you grab them, this will result in them full DI'ing away from you.
A little visual cue I've been using to improve my CGs is noticing that when Peach upthrows, she swings her hand back behind her on the opposite side of where she was facing when she grabbed. I input the dash right after I see her hand go away.
Dunno if that'd help you get the timing, but I figured I'd post it.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
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are most nairs peaches do then not more than +1 or +2 on shield? i always felt like I was forced to do things to cover grab when nairing a lot, but it's probably just because i'm not ground floating the nair..assuming we fall from the air we probably are losing too many frames. if nair stays out for a bit so you get a weak nair on their shield, i assume that means you don't get as much stun either right? so basically just try to use lower nairs and make sure they hit strong if you want to maximize your nair pressure right? Kind of annoying though.
also i wanted to add a question: any advice on how to finish the chaingrab with something better than a nair? lately i'm getting upthrow to 105ish they di behind I nair moving backwards if it's slight DI or run nair otherwise. But i'm wondering if there are any cute things I can do. Is it possible to run JC upsmash as a finisher? or is that only if they don't DI? I have no idea if they can jump out of that though.
also i wanted to add a question: any advice on how to finish the chaingrab with something better than a nair? lately i'm getting upthrow to 105ish they di behind I nair moving backwards if it's slight DI or run nair otherwise. But i'm wondering if there are any cute things I can do. Is it possible to run JC upsmash as a finisher? or is that only if they don't DI? I have no idea if they can jump out of that though.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I think you shouldn't really fall into people's shield with nair. Try your best to set up fairs and if you really think you need the faster start up of the nair, you should try to back away while doing it, and see if you can land somewhere away from them.
I'm usually just finishing with nairs as well, up smash might be interesting but I haven't really tried it. What I do at times is using janky f throws if they keep using full horizontal DI away or towards in the chaingrab and I have them somewhat near the edge, because well... horrid DI kills people really early on those. And if they do DI decent I still have an edgeguard at least.
I'm usually just finishing with nairs as well, up smash might be interesting but I haven't really tried it. What I do at times is using janky f throws if they keep using full horizontal DI away or towards in the chaingrab and I have them somewhat near the edge, because well... horrid DI kills people really early on those. And if they do DI decent I still have an edgeguard at least.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Doing nair on shield with Peach will rarely glean much advantage unless it's FC or l-canceled and hits their shield near the base. Her slow descent even with a FF makes the AC almost negligible.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Ok, thanks guys. I didn't know whether to dash or to run -> JC, I tried both and didn't have too much consistency with either. As a Yoshi main I can just choose if I want to JC or not, but the default in my mind is not to, I think. Really interesting idea with evade in training mode though.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Hmmmmmmmm, how much do you think DJC is involved in peaches current metagame?
Nintendude
Smash Hero
DJC is really good for quickly changing your aerial movement to find an opening with bair. Also, double jump land OoS to punish Fox's up-smash from like 0-10% is pretty good (thanks to Armada for that idea). There's probably some other good situations for that but the most obvious one is shielded up-smash.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Insta float nair oos is best oos :D
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
So I came back from a tournament recently and played alot vs a Pikachu(A matchup I struggle with), and I tried to take as many mental notes as I could, can someone correct some of these things/which are correct?
I first started thinking how I should keep the neutral game. My first guess was floating at a mid range, and see what I got out of that. I got naired out of it easily and comboed, so I had 2 ideas in mind, which were to either float higher or stay grounded. I realized that floating in general isn't good because pikachu can poke above Peach easily with Up-air, so I decided to stay grounded. My grounded game was alright, I try to CC his nair approach into dsmash, but it only worked maybe 45% of the time. Then I started to realized that if I shield , pikachu can't really do much to me, but I messed up the timing in alot of things. I would shield Pikachu's Nair and try to FC Nair it, but he would immediately UpAir afterwards. Can I really not jump out?(May someone fact check this). So I'm thinking WD oos backwards and CC some of the approaches is the best way to go. As for my approaches, Im not gonna use FC Fair anymore, it doesn't help me as much as I though it would. Dair is useless. Up Air, im not really sure I wanna put myself above Pikachu just to call out his jump, it feels too unsafe. Last option was bair, which I found to be AMAZING. Retreating bairs stop approaches, if you space a bair well enough, you can get a grab or just gain a better stage position. It also beats out Pikachu's approaches 80% of the time, other 20% it trades, but I still get the benefit because Pikachu's moves are weak. Dtilt im still unsure on where I want to use that. Dash attack is also amazing. I was really scared to use it at first because I was afraid of an upsmash punish, but more often that not, it hits. And the punish I take isn't that bad. Dash attack could probably beat his nair or trade, didn't try that yet.
Then there is edgeguarding/get edgeguarded. Edgeguarding pikachu, for me, gets me frustrated when it shouldn't. I think the way to do it is just throw turnips on his recovery. If he doesn't make it to the ledge(On stage), I just FC Fair him back out and do it again. Once he gets the ledge, he doesnt have a bunch of options to get back on stage. I just FC Fair him back out, or if he shields it doesn't matter because his shield is bad. I just Fair>Grab or Fair>Dsmash or other mixups, but those are my primary tools. The thing that frustrates me is that you have to respect Pikachu's ledge Up Air, because sometimes I get greedy and get spiked at 0%. I guess I need more patience in the matchup in general. When it comes to Pikachu edgeguarding me, I'm honestly clueless. I feel like I get spiked going high, and ftilted going low. That I need help with.
These are just the notes I have off the top of my head, please feel free to correct them and add to them, thanks!
I first started thinking how I should keep the neutral game. My first guess was floating at a mid range, and see what I got out of that. I got naired out of it easily and comboed, so I had 2 ideas in mind, which were to either float higher or stay grounded. I realized that floating in general isn't good because pikachu can poke above Peach easily with Up-air, so I decided to stay grounded. My grounded game was alright, I try to CC his nair approach into dsmash, but it only worked maybe 45% of the time. Then I started to realized that if I shield , pikachu can't really do much to me, but I messed up the timing in alot of things. I would shield Pikachu's Nair and try to FC Nair it, but he would immediately UpAir afterwards. Can I really not jump out?(May someone fact check this). So I'm thinking WD oos backwards and CC some of the approaches is the best way to go. As for my approaches, Im not gonna use FC Fair anymore, it doesn't help me as much as I though it would. Dair is useless. Up Air, im not really sure I wanna put myself above Pikachu just to call out his jump, it feels too unsafe. Last option was bair, which I found to be AMAZING. Retreating bairs stop approaches, if you space a bair well enough, you can get a grab or just gain a better stage position. It also beats out Pikachu's approaches 80% of the time, other 20% it trades, but I still get the benefit because Pikachu's moves are weak. Dtilt im still unsure on where I want to use that. Dash attack is also amazing. I was really scared to use it at first because I was afraid of an upsmash punish, but more often that not, it hits. And the punish I take isn't that bad. Dash attack could probably beat his nair or trade, didn't try that yet.
Then there is edgeguarding/get edgeguarded. Edgeguarding pikachu, for me, gets me frustrated when it shouldn't. I think the way to do it is just throw turnips on his recovery. If he doesn't make it to the ledge(On stage), I just FC Fair him back out and do it again. Once he gets the ledge, he doesnt have a bunch of options to get back on stage. I just FC Fair him back out, or if he shields it doesn't matter because his shield is bad. I just Fair>Grab or Fair>Dsmash or other mixups, but those are my primary tools. The thing that frustrates me is that you have to respect Pikachu's ledge Up Air, because sometimes I get greedy and get spiked at 0%. I guess I need more patience in the matchup in general. When it comes to Pikachu edgeguarding me, I'm honestly clueless. I feel like I get spiked going high, and ftilted going low. That I need help with.
These are just the notes I have off the top of my head, please feel free to correct them and add to them, thanks!
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
But i do see what you mean, it would be faster at times to go for a DJC bair instead of just floating into one.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Generally I also like groundfloated nair oos a lot, too.
But on low percent spacies a dsmash is like the best thing ever to get. Does decent percent and sets up for a techchase? Hell yeah!
@Ryobeat: I think fair is perfectly fine against Pikachu, you just (like always) have to set it up correctly
But getting him to approach you and fail to wd back / cc stuff (he can't really do much against cc in general, because his approach options aren't too good against it) works great as well.
Just how the hell do you deal with fox, if doing fair stuff is hard against Pikachu? That guy also has a super good nair / move speed and he even has his ******** up smash to mix stuff up :D
Pikachu nair > uair stuff on shield has to be respected (his uair hits frame three and has a 3 frame jump), and his full strength nair is +/- 0 in terms of frame advantage on shield.
In terms of edge guards: Try to stick a hitbox in his up b path (his hurt box gets super huuuge while doing them), and do it till the stupid thing dies / or makes it back to the stage (which is far more likely... the shock rat has a great recovery
).
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
Generally I also like groundfloated nair oos a lot, too.
But on low percent spacies a dsmash is like the best thing ever to get. Does decent percent and sets up for a techchase? Hell yeah!
@Ryobeat: I think fair is perfectly fine against Pikachu, you just (like always) have to set it up correctly
Just how the hell do you deal with fox, if doing fair stuff is hard against Pikachu? That guy also has a super good nair / move speed and he even has his ******** up smash to mix stuff up :D
In terms of edge guards: Try to stick a hitbox in his up b path (his hurt box gets super huuuge while doing them), and do it till the stupid thing dies / or makes it back to the stage (which is far more likely... the shock rat has a great recovery
Cause with Fox, the only thing he has to poke with is full hop moves, which I could punish/careless about. He also has upsmash like you said, but I can float higher than that. But with Pikachu, i feel like no matter how high I float, I will get poked with an Up Air because it's disjointed. I also feel like staying grounded beats floating vs Pikachu anyways, I use FC Fair only when Pikachu is stuck in a corner. Maybe it's that I shouldn't approach with FC Fair? I much rather a bair approach or grounded attempt. Or just use FC Fair when I got him in the habit of shielding. Also, with what you said about edgeguards, how is Dair at the ledge? Will I get hit out of that?
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
So I figured out what I was doing wrong, I was grabbing too late, and underestimated Peach's grab range. I was grabbing right in front of where they fell. . . spending too much time running and grabbing soon enough. The CG is now easier. . .
Also, somebody mentioned a flashy OoS option for after getting hit by Fox's Usmash. What is a solid, normal go-to. WD OoS -> Grab? (I think float N-air would be nice, but I don't know if that works/is practical)
Finally, what button input do you use for grounded float OoS? My way is awkward. . .
Also, somebody mentioned a flashy OoS option for after getting hit by Fox's Usmash. What is a solid, normal go-to. WD OoS -> Grab? (I think float N-air would be nice, but I don't know if that works/is practical)
Finally, what button input do you use for grounded float OoS? My way is awkward. . .
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
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- 2,321
aren't there extra frames of startup if you float instead of just shing out of shield? I keep wondering this..as a lot of people seem to use float nair out of shield more than i do
float nair is practical against fox's upsmash cause it has too much lag
JJTheJetPlane
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 30
I believe you are correct mr. praetor of knight.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Extra frames? That never seemed to be a problem, esp. in this match:
http://youtu.be/0jSdlYkNw-4
http://youtu.be/0jSdlYkNw-4
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
So... Float oos inputs?
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Well, basically you float on ground and nair. The thing is though you have to be patient with it. Wait until you are absolutely certain the control stick is back into neutral before you hit A or you will end up doing a grounded dair. It takes practice to get the muscle memory down to the point where you can do it quickly and consistantly.
MacD
Banned via Administration
silly kyle for next best peach NA besides me and vanz
........... maybe doh too but idk
........... maybe doh too but idk
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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Did your bracket match with him get recorded, MacD?
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Hows DoH doin in PM? I haven't seen ONE match with him goin peach. Just Char and Zelda.
Silly Kyle
Smash Champion
I am pretty sure the set wasn't recorded, but I will say that we probably had the most enjoyable Peach dittos I have ever played before. His downsmashes are so janky tho LOL
MacD
Banned via Administration
and yet, by the end of all the ditto's we played, you learned to dsmash a little bit better
people who hate peach dittos just don't get how to play them
people who hate peach dittos just don't get how to play them
Silly Kyle
Smash Champion
And now I know a cool way to fall through platforms without having to shield drop :3
Ryobeat
Smash Ace
Silly Kyle, a few questions. But first off, props for being good at KoC2. BUT NOW DEM QUESTIONS
1. Being in Arizona, you probably shield drop like a beast. How exactly do you use them? How do you feel about them with Peach in general?
2. In your matches vs Axe, what are your top 3 things to remember to fight Pikachu? I need some help
3. What is the difference between bair apporaches/fair approaches? There is clearly a difference, but I can't mentally decide how and when to use each by myself.
1. Being in Arizona, you probably shield drop like a beast. How exactly do you use them? How do you feel about them with Peach in general?
2. In your matches vs Axe, what are your top 3 things to remember to fight Pikachu? I need some help
3. What is the difference between bair apporaches/fair approaches? There is clearly a difference, but I can't mentally decide how and when to use each by myself.
Babatunde
Smash Journeyman
Congrats to you two MacD and Silly Kyle on repping Peach so well!
OliClutch117
Smash Apprentice
Was the mirror match recorded. I would very much like to watch it.