VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[VA]

do u mean in ur area or what? i suppose there aren't that many active peach players anymore. seems like a dumb point in the lifespan of smash to retire right before evo though.

 

[DoH]

I don't really get the hype around EVO tbh. Like they will begrudgingly let us play our game and then go back to hating us once we leave.

 

[BTmoney]

I think that is a very pessimistic way to look at it. I was not part of the community long enough though to know all the semantics behind how Melee is actually treated outside of our community. It's hype because it is the manifestation of our solidarity and longevity. We earned it.

But anyways I have some questions.
What does fox do to make that match up hard for peach? I am talking specific move selection and spacing. Something I do is if peach is not in the air, the only thing I will ever go for at low percent are drills and run canceled shines. If I think my drill is going to hit shield then I space it as far away from peach as possible (or behind), follow up with a shine to cover myself and dash away to reset neutral. I feel like Fox beats peach in neutral if you know what you are doing so I don't mind giving up some shield pressure opportunities to avoid getting nair'd or grabbed OoS.
I pretty much never bair or nair peach at low percent and if I do I'll fade as hard as possible. I feel like proper drilling and running shines are a solid way to beat peach. She is a lot easier to deal with when she is floating if she opts to get off the ground. That's how I approach the MU and I have substantial and tangible improvement vs peach. It's been the difference between getting 4 stocked by Hanky Panky (who is slept on lol) and getting down to 1 or 2 stocks but eventually getting out played because I'm not that good at this game. I want you guys to share your opinions though.


Also what exactly does Falco due to the make the MU hard for peach?
I feel like Falco solidly loses.
How about Sheik?

 

[AozoraX]

@Tachi
Personal thoughts on it
Fox - Once you're shined and they're very good at wd-ing through it, you can expect to die at around 70-80% with an upsmash. Very brutal. Fox players whose overall movement is quick and spot on will have you for dinner every upsmash. Getting shine spiked sucks every now and then.
Falco - Dair beats almost everything. Only way to avoid it is just to see it coming and get away far enough to punish it asap, otherwise you just eat a full stack of it all. You can float over lazers at a point that makes things very awkard for Falco so the lazers aren't the worst. Good Falco's will know exactly when you pin you down with a dair for sure.
Sheik - Grab game, bair and fair. Getting walled by a bair is the biggest pain and you ABSOLUTELY have to get that bair punishment down.
It's kind of common MU notes that you can find on the 1st page, but I feel as if these ones really suck the most.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Not sure if anyone bothered to read my last question... But here it is again, since I'd really like to know:

In other news, how does the whole thing work when Peach does some kind of a short hop w/ a Bair then lands to the ground immediately? I seem to do it by accident a lot, but since I don't know what I'm doing in all honestly, I'd like to learn what I'm doing. Some players I see do it so fast that they can do 2 Bairs (landing on the ground and doing another one) within 60 frames.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I read it, but I wasn't sure what you were talking about at all...do you mean really fast float cancelled bairs? Is there a video example of this you know of?

 

[VA]

guess i will have to dazzle u b1tches with my flawless peach, then you'll want to carry on playing.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I think what heeroyuy does is he double jumps cancels the bair so peach drops like a rock. Not sure but thats what it sounds like to me

 

[Heero Yuy]

Yeah, that sounds about right, actually. Thanks Ben!

2 months of studying Peach and I still can't figure out the double-jump cancel. Is there like some sort of guide or something on this Peach forum where I can just catch up within a few weeks all of her advanced moves? Otherwise, I hope you guys don't mind abunch of questions over the next few months. >.>

 

[Xyzz]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't mind answering questions as well as I can at all.
For doublejump cancels: It's super easy, just hit the jump button twice and do an aerial :D

 

[K@$h]

is there a training guide for peach? i got some of the AT's down, but i cant find anything that tells me what i should be practicing.

 

[Xyzz]

It's pretty hard to make general statements about that. A lot of what you should be practicing depends on what you can do how well and your general playstyle has a lot of influence on how much you'd benefit of different techniques.
I guess in general you should be able to do:
- general ATs like WD / DD / ...
- Float cancel stuff (that is to say doing the actual float cancel and then being able to get all your follow ups without giving away unnecessary frames)
- a good idea of turnip trajectories and the ability to approach with sh > turnip toss > fc aerial.
- the ability to do the chaingrab (or at least follow ups on up throw) on spacies.

 

[ShroudedOne]

http://smashboards.com/threads/newbie-peach-training-guide.41170/

There's that. I'm not sure how new you are, but at the very least, it's a comprehensive list of basic things you should know. In addition to what Xyzz said, that should be a pretty decent start.

 

[Heero Yuy]

HERP THE DERP. Despite knowing plenty of AT's, I still needed the basics. You're an angel, ShroudedOne. :o

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I still cannot get around not trying to l-cancel float cancels.

 

[Xyzz]

Which is totally not a problem. I know of people pressin a twice for falcons nair (because it has two hits) or l canceling lasers

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The main problem light shielding. Usually L-canceled moves last 7 frames. With float canceling, peach just has to sit through that 4 frames of landing lag normally. So, I tend to hold longer than 4 frames it seems after l-canceling, but shorter than 7 frames after having done it. I do not have this problem of light shielding after aerials with any other character except peach.

 

[knightpraetor]

when does nair start getting stronger than fair? does anyone remember what percent?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Wouldn't that be character dependent for percentages? But, I recall something around ~100% being noticeable.

 

[DoH]

Yeah it's over 100%

 

[knightpraetor]

ok, I will use that as a standard then. Thanks. Also, DoH any tips on fighting marth?

I just have trouble when they start playing really campy outside of dash attack range but it's really risky trying to pull a turnip. I get the feeling pulling a turnip prevents this nonsense pretty well. but getting it seems to be difficult.

 

[DoH]

Just rush him down. He can't camp you in the corner.

Ignore game 3 on this one >_>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeGE_-4wCQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cnK6bZOmOI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuF87b5jHoc

 

[Purpletuce]

So, where do I look to learn (up to date) about the Falco vs Peach neutral game and the MU against Marth in general. Alternatively, can someone tell me about these?

 

[BTmoney]

So, where do I look to learn (up to date) about the Falco vs Peach neutral game and the MU against Marth in general. Alternatively, can someone tell me about these?

I think that is an easy Q. We have the two best players do it all the time. All fairly recently (as in the vids aren't 3 years old and the metagame isn't different now)

Armada vs PP Smashers Reunion GF(2 sets, PP wins 1 Armada wins 1)
Armada vs PP Smashers Reunion Winners
Armada vs PP Apex 2013 Winners (Falco)
Armada vs PP Genesis 2
Armada vs PP Pound V


If you're into breaking down gameplay yourself (which I am a huge fan of)
Watch this year's Apex GF once again (with the sound off if that helps you focus) and keep track of every single neutral encounter and not necessarily the punishes/combos that follow. In neutral look at what each player did wrong and what other option(s) they had. Once again Armada vs PP of course. PP played the MU stupid well, I trust you can gain a lot from watching his Marth then branch out to more specific questions.

Armada and M2k's Marth have a few games/sets as well. Also Check out Ice vs Armada. He's a (great) Marth main obviously but he goes Falcon/sheik against Armada sometime. I don't know how much he actually goes Marth vs Peach.

Watch them, then rewatch them. Then one more time. That's how I do things at least.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Here's a recent set (best of 5) of my Peach vs Tai's Marth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CMi2MyD1nQ

My float cancel nairs are getting pretty fast.

 

[Nintendude]

I haven't played since the tournament in Texas and there's no one to really play with here in MD/VA. Without Armada I don't know how to get better and there's not many people in the region to challenge me to force me to get better, not that we play that often

Plus life is starting to get filled up with my different leagues (karaoke, kickball, maybe rugby) and yoga and being a fulltime homosexual. Plus I am too old for this.

I joined my company's kickball team. Maybe we're in the same league? Sorry if I'm not enough of a challenge for you =/

 

[knightpraetor]

has anyone had luck getting under fox's full hop nairs with upair? i know jiggs likes to do that, but i'm not sure how feasible it is.

 

[Nintendude]

That's actually one of Armada's subtle tricks that people haven't picked up on for some reason. There's several situations where he'll do this. One is just a defensive short-hop Uair, anticipating a full hop aerial, which is generally really safe. Another example is that sometimes after a FC'd Fair he'll just jump forward Uair, which catches Foxes who try to jump out of shield to escape that situation. I think I remember him wrecking one of Silent Wolf's stocks at Apex doing this tactic.

Uairing Fox out of his jumps is really good and I don't get why Armada is the only Peach that does it even though every Peach has surely studied his videos. I've been experimenting with it and it really isn't hard to get the reads necessary to implement it since it exploits common Fox patterns.

 

[knightpraetor]

I can't seem to get the timing down. peaches don't do it cause it's harder than timing nair trades. Anyway, I knew that he used it to catch foxes once he had them pinned in shield, but I hadn't really seen him use it much vs full hop nair in the sets i watched. It should be possible though. if jiggs can do it i don't see why peach can't

 

[KirbyKaze]

has anyone had luck getting under fox's full hop nairs with upair? i know jiggs likes to do that, but i'm not sure how feasible it is.

The timing window is strict but it's doable. Nice thing about prediction / conditioning-based FJ uair intercepts (and rising SH ones to a lesser degree) is that they don't really commit you in the sense that the move ends early so if you don't hit them then you can still float out of the action. In case of FJ uair, you can still float after in a pretty common height for float > fair zoning. Peach's high aerial mobility also empowers this on stages like Battlefield and YS when she's centerstage because she can cover a platform action by jumping forward but still retain enough mobility to move back just after the hitbox expires.

True reaction with low ground float uair through a falling uair is strict and variable. I feel Fox could vary his fade and fast fall in a lot of ways to ruin Peach's timing. Easier to just crouch it or nair it accordingly, since both of those can lead to lol-****.

 

[knightpraetor]

lots of things to think about. Also, you are talking about reacting if you were on the ground and they went for a full hop nair, but i find they typically only go for full hop nair once you set your float height. i want to react and move forward while falling under the arc and hit the upair. Anyway I am going to get this down one way or another. Though it's starting to look like one of those things that i need to first learn while training against just full hop nair from a friend before i try it out on redd. Too much stuff going on, so I can't focus on punishing the full hop nairs

 

[Nintendude]

I also find that most Foxes won't attempt a straight up full jump approach in most situations. The best use imo of the short-hop uair intercept is to catch Fox trying to jump off a platform at you.

btw I'm trying to switch to Peach for the Fox matchup. I'm getting tired of getting gimped at 10% and not having guaranteed punishes / edgeguards =/

 

[DoH]

I joined my company's kickball team. Maybe we're in the same league? Sorry if I'm not enough of a challenge for you =/

lol well you play quite possibly my two best matchups

and i'm in the gay kickball league. it's the best!

 

[VA]

Peach is good, I got the closest I've ever been to winning a UK national last weekend. I beat fuzzy and prof but ran out of steam when confronted with set 2 of GFs being best of 7...

 

[VA]

why has no one congratulated me

 

[DoH]

Europe sucks

 

[Xyzz]

why has no one congratulated me

Too mad that even with Armada gone I'm still not the best Peach in Europe

 

[VA]

Europe sucks

 

[john!]

are you declaring a gif war against doh?

 

[VA]

im better than doh at peach and gifs.

also doh, why don't you try to name one player from europe that you beat? fuzzyness? HMMMMM.

if macd were here i might have to sit down and shut up but i ain't taking this **** from dohbody.