VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[darkatma]

G$ could be a good marth but not be good against peach. Do you win against him?
I'm talking about marths that know their spacing against peach, that know how to manipulate peach's DI, and that know every best combo out of an fthrow.

maybe i'm just getting playstyle countered pretty hard by the marths I'm playing against.

The foxes i've played include:
tink
kels
sfat
and more recently
phil
zhu
hmw

but there's a tourney tomorrow so I'll let you know if I change my mind after getting whupped by good foxes

 

[Wake]

Are still in MO, Atma? You got Marth!

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

G$ beats me more then i beat him but he is better then me atm so its kinda expected. But i have and do beat his marth just not as much as his marth beats me

 

[darkatma]

I've moved back to norcal, so I get my fair share of good player experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2RQXE8yNrE
in this set, I feel like fox is completely beatable, and that every mistake I make that leads to death is my fault, not fox being overpowered.

@wake, dekushrub and I are the best players in MO. You probably don't know the other players because they're all pretty mediocre.

 

[Wake]

Ah. Who else played in MO? I don't think I usually hear much about the scene there.

Ah. I always thought it was DekuSCRUB. haha wow. I see.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

People need to stop thinking along the lines of 1 stock being less **** than 2 stock or 3 stock... Unless you're actually threatening to win the set, players arent even playing their best


edit- also winning a friendly once in a while doesn't say much either...

 

[ShroudedOne]

Fox should have no problems with a shielding Peach. He gets SO MUCH from grabbing, especially her, it's insane. Once Foxes figure out that they can just grab her, people will wake up.

I think Marth should be a lot harder for us than it is now, but it isn't. As in, I've always thought that Marth should body her, but dash attack/turnips seemed too good.

 

[Wake]

People need to stop thinking along the lines of 1 stock being less **** than 2 stock or 3 stock... Unless you're actually threatening to win the set, players arent even playing their best


edit- also winning a friendly once in a while doesn't say much either...

I was thinking something similar.

 

[darkatma]

Fox should have no problems with a shielding Peach. He gets SO MUCH from grabbing, especially her, it's insane. Once Foxes figure out that they can just grab her, people will wake up.

I think Marth should be a lot harder for us than it is now, but it isn't. As in, I've always thought that Marth should body her, but dash attack/turnips seemed too good.

that's exactly what I mean though, fox has no killing potential off a grab against a good peach, it's amazing lol

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well i am sorry g$ normally goes falco vs me in tourney, i dont see how that takes away from the matches i have had against his marth. I mean on the flip side its not like i have lost to his marth in torueny so does that make his marth victories against me in friendlies me nothing?

Anyway i have played and beaten and lost to plenty of marths and none of them have been unbeatable. The only one who really gave me a beating was niko but even against niko i had moments where i steped it up and played evenly with him. (There were just more moments when i was not playing up to snuff against him)

Also cant fox do a up throw to up air and start the up air early so only the 2nd part of it hits so u cant sdi out of the move. I dont know if this can be done but i feel like it could be done.

Edit: also should be noted one of the two people i train with the most mains marth

 

[Wake]

I'm preeetty sure against a good spacing Fox, uthrow->uair works.

 

[ShroudedOne]

He gets really good positional on her though, which should lead to a kill/edgeguard if he abuses it properly.

Fox can space 2nd hit only uairs, but no one does it.

 

[darkatma]

I'm preeetty sure against a good spacing Fox, uthrow->uair works.

no wonder you think the matchup is hard

 

[Wake]

haha I actually do think it works still if the Fox does it right. If not, I'd like to know what you be doin lol I'm pretty good at SDIing the hit though, and sometimes I nair out when the Fox is slow.

But that isn't even the worst part of it anyways.

 

[darkatma]

haha I actually do think it works still if the Fox does it right.

But that isn't even the worst part of it anyways.

But it doesn't
Fox's uthrow uair will only hit you if you miss the DI on the upthrow, which should never happen because good players shield DI all the time

If you DI the upthrow away or behind, you will have enough time to double jump or double jump float away. All you need is very slight distance to avoid the upair. It's a timing thing, do the dj as soon as you're out of stun.

I believe Amsah or KK posted a thread about it a while ago, but upthrow-upair is not a legitimate combo on peach, just like it doesn't work on ganon/mario/luigi/samus. The only reason it will work is 1)you suck at DI or 2)you doublejump too late, since dj sends you down for a frame or two before bringing you upwards.

As for using only the 2nd hit to hit peach, it's wayyyy too slow. If the first hit won't hit peach in time, there's no way you could space it so only the 2nd hit hits in time, since the 2nd hit comes out a few frames later.

If you watch someone good (just Armada really), you'll notice they rarely ever get hit by uthrow->uair. Sometimes armada knows he missed the jump timing so he'll airdodge or smash DI it. But in the end, uthrow->uair is unreliable as a kill move against peach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Seems to work for kels...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HYJMEgadCU#t=2m57s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HYJMEgadCU#t=4m5s

 

[darkatma]

Seems to work for kels...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HYJMEgadCU#t=2m57s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HYJMEgadCU#t=4m5s

no double jump, he was already actionable for plenty of frames for the first link
2nd link, vanz didn't DI fully away, only slight DI

the point of DIing away fully is that it takes fox longer to reach you.. so you can move away in time.

 

[Wake]

Even if you DI behind, Fox can't catch you? hmmm. I guess that would explain why I don't get killed like that as often. I'd like some verification on that one though. Either way, that isn't how I usually get killed. It's his ability to run/camp like Unknown was talking about in the tier list thread. I probably die more to usmash or bair haha

It looks like in the set at Genesis 2, Mango got a good amount of kills from Uthrow>uair, but yeah Armada didn't seem to DI right either.

 

[darkatma]

meh after rewatching that set, I'm even more convinced it's not a real combo.
for the kill at 1:22, look how much armada was tumbling before mango got the kill by uairing her feet

The reason why every other peach except armada sucks is because our defensive games and capitalization blow. I don't even know why I'm trying to explain everything I've been studying for so long off armada's game lolll, but if you're curious, try to imitate his movements, see why he does them and how many more options he's covering by playing the way he does compared to normal peaches.

Right now I think only Armada and Vwins are doing it right.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, I won't say that isn't a legitimate point, because it is, but Peach sucks from below. It's no big deal for him to put pressure on us from below, since we're floaty/come down slow/he's fast. But yeah, I guess Fox doesn't have a kill directly from a grab (maybe down throw techchase??)

 

[Wake]

Fox's movement and camping is why I think the MU is not even.

"fox v peach is definitely at least 6-4.

his camping/run away is too powerful vs her." As Unknown put it, but yeah I'd still agree that Armada is doing it the best, obviously haha. He does a few things the best. Maybe your Marth problem really is a style thing. How is he harder than Fox? haha

And I appreciate that you're explaining stuff.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Yet he still has and will always have shine to shine to shine to shine to upsmash. So does he really need a grab to kill when his 1 frame safe move combos to his best kill move on us? Also nothing annoys me more then when i am edge guarding and i make a mistake which against fox can lead to death, like his side b should not combo to a kill move

 

[darkatma]

shine->upsmash becomes a very dangerous move if you know they're going to go for it.
If you jump/groundfloat when he hits you with the shine, then you will land on the ground with no lag and get pushed away. If he wavedashes towards you, it's a free downsmash, just remember to resist the urge to shield once he shines you.

It's still scary and lame, but there are plenty of ways to avoid getting shine->upsmashed.
these include
-groundfloat/jump right before he shines you (mentioned above)
-smash DI the drill so you land farther away, generally if they're doing a running drill towards you, smash DI towards him so you land way past him, away from shine
-float at a medium height, then merely DI away: I see armada doing this a lot, when he attacks, he's also buffering DI away so that he lands far enough away for the shine to miss -> free grab/dsmash/whatever
-space your grabs and dash attack better: they way I often get shined is from fox's spotdodge->shine->upsmash or I dash attack into this shield and it's a free drillshine->upsmash.
for the first scenario, you could run up and shield instead to bait out a spotdodge, then grab, or just dashdance grab. Basically don't overstretch, peach has a very limited amount of space where she has high control, about one dash attack's distance from wherever her starting point is IMO.
for the second scenario, dash attack later so you go past his shield, or smash DI the drill (this is the hardest thing for me personally)

whoops, forgot to mention, the whole reason I brought up that peach's shield is amazing is that if fox tries to shine your shield and wavedash past, it's a free nair out of shield

and I agree that marth is just a style thing, I think once I play enough marths I'll be able to learn the matchup and do well in it.

 

[Wake]

Smash DIing the drill is something I'm trying to do more. Yeah the DA into his shield is usually how I end up getting drill shined also. I STILL want some verification on the uair business, but thanks for the write up anyways.

Yeah Peach's shield is really dangerous. Getting shine-grabbed is what gets me the most probably.

 

[ShroudedOne]

What? How are you calling the shine, and then jumping before you get hit? They're not going to run up and shine, they're going to use other moves to combo into it (drill is pretty simply SDI'd, I think, which you mention). Late nair > shine at percents where you can't CC the nair. And I believe a late dair is near impossible for her to SDI all the way out of, as opposed to an early one (Confirm or deny these for me, please?)

Everything else you mention is really good. Especially the buffering DI bit, I didn't know about that. His movement/speed are certainly the big issues in the MU (and he still kills/edgeguards us really, really well). I'm going to save this, cause I've been thinking about how to not get ***** by Fox, and I watch Armada, and I haven't been able to figure out what it is he does, besides just outspace/capitalize on everything.

 

[darkatma]

Good foxes actually do run up and shine fairly often. I guess calling the shine isn't really feasible, but floating at ground height is.

As for late nair to shine, you actually DON'T want to CC it. You want to be in the air still when he shines you, because then you'll get shined into the ground and have no stun like I mentioned earlier.

Armada does a lot of nifty spacing tricks. Wish I saw you at a tourney, it'd be so much easier to explain some of the stuff he does.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So more like, floating near the ground when you think they might want to approach you, or just keeping that height during the match. Interesting.

So if they nair at me, I should jump? Along with the shield/wd back stuff?

Yeah, these sorts of things are easier to demonstrate and explain in person. :\

Rewatching some Armada vs Fox matches, and WOW there are so many little things.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

wont u just get up smashed if u float at ground level?

 

[darkatma]

wont u just get up smashed if u float at ground level?

Of course, if you're super obvious, you're bound to get upsmashed. I just mean, switch it up.

Also, I noticed one thing armada will do if he knows fox is about to go for an upsmash is to stand his ground and jab=>dsmash, since jab has almost as much range as dsmash but comes out a few frames earlier. I've seen him interrupt upsmash before, and kill with it

 

[Wake]

Yeah I've seen the jab trick too.

 

[Rosedemon]

I do the jab trick all the time even against shieks and other dash attackers.

However watch out for people catching on and jabbing back, because if you're already inputting your downsmash you'll end up get hit.

 

[Wake]

I've been using Storm in UMvC3, and I keep thinking of your avatar.

 

[darkatma]

well, just went to a really fun tourney..

my verdict:
fox is doable
marth is not lololol
alan is the best on janky stages

jk I just suck vs marth and need to learn the matchup.

I do the jab trick all the time even against shieks and other dash attackers.

However watch out for people catching on and jabbing back, because if you're already inputting your downsmash you'll end up get hit.

haha the solution here is to jab and then cc dsmash, since you'll cc their jab and just **** them. Can't do that with upsmash, but you can with peach's dsmash
peach *****

 

[Rosedemon]

My janky stage expertise is unparalleled.

Me and Mushroom Kingdom 2 go way back

 

[ShroudedOne]

I can't even handle FoD, not to talk of jank stages, lol. I'm going to end up being the most straight and narrow Peach player ever, taking people to Yoshi's or FD every game.

It also feels like it's time for me to go read the OP again...

 

[Jethrotex]

I don't like Yoshi's too much, I need time to think, not Dreamland time to think, but Battlefield time to think.

If my opponent is too aggressive, I like any of the bottom three stages, I feel way too claustrophobic on the top two what with them trying to smother me.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So this whole jump when u r going to be shined thing kinda falls apart when u realize shine is a 1 frame move and u cant react and jump in time to avoid it and the only way this jump idea works is if they telegraph it and dont do some other attack first

 

[DoH]

I can powershieild approaching shines, no johns

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Doh with future sight, reacting in negative frames

 

[Wake]

Shield comes out in 1 frame too right?