VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Samochan]

Vanz, you can't cc Mario's fair, which is prolly the only reason vilness uses it to attack me. As it's a meteor, it got hella lot of hitstun. Everything else goes, but watch out for that fair, getting stuck someplace on ground combos to dsmash, jabs and grab.

Also, watch out for mario's fsmash, it has suprising range and tilted up it catches peach from float. Then wd back fsmash is just what samuses also do when you try to float and fair em. <_<;

 

[bladeofapollo]

Float just above Usmash range and Mario will never kill you. He'll probably combo you up to 100% (not in 1 combo, but you know what I mean), but he won't kill you until about 180% unless you get hit by a smash attack/instant nair.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I played against Pine's maria today, it's not the hardest matchup for peach. Just space it and acknowlage his ability to move, while spacing aerials and punishing. Dsmash lots of course, and bair lots, he really can't do a lot about it.

 

[Cia]

Vanz, you can't cc Mario's fair

REALLY?! If so than my mistake, but I'm pretty sure i've CC'd this before..

thanks Samo

 

[lloDownedu74]

Hey guys, I've never really thought about this (and sorry in advance if its already been discussed), but is it ever better to use a charged dmash than an uncharged one? Besides for maybe timing, I never charge dsmash. I've seen the "It's a trap" video where jiggz pwns peach =D, so Im guessing its not a viable option for punishing rest....?

Any thoughts?

 

[DoH]

with charging, sometimes you can just stand on a platform and charge with people under you; people who just wait and punish will sometimes jump into it...

with jiggs, throw a turnip up over her head so the turnip hits her into the downsmash (or your up smash sweetspot) so she'll be in the air and can't tech it

 

[lloDownedu74]

kk. I've just been thinking that if you're caught charging a dsmash, the opponent could easily hit peach from out of her zone (like with fox's dair, marth's fair, etc). Just a thought

 

[DoH]

that's why you do it when you're above them

 

[Samochan]

REALLY?! If so than my mistake, but I'm pretty sure i've CC'd this before..

thanks Samo

Well dunno, it's kinda no brainer cause his fair IS a meteor, thus has hella lot of hitstun that sends down and locks you in place. It would be the same as trying to cc falcon's/someone else's dair/meteor, you might be only able to do it from like 0% or something and opponent needs to mess up so you're doing a move before them. But yea, basically un-cc'able, like all meteors and spikes are.

Charged dsmash can be used to maul sidesteppers and also timed dsmash can kill falco that walltechs and forward b's immediately. With timing, they tech first hit by then get hit by the second. Fox is invulnerable in that insta walltech forward b though. Other than that, dsmash is best used with the c-stick. =) You don't really wanna be caught charging dsmash.

 

[crismas]

Well dunno, it's kinda no brainer cause his fair IS a meteor, thus has hella lot of hitstun that sends down and locks you in place. It would be the same as trying to cc falcon's/someone else's dair/meteor, you might be only able to do it from like 0% or something and opponent needs to mess up so you're doing a move before them. But yea, basically un-cc'able, like all meteors and spikes are.

Yeah I realized this later. Makes sense.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Charge dsmash to punish rest. I can't do the turnip-sweetspot usmash, and with dsmash they'd need to be ******** to risk trying to CC a dsmash

 

[MacD]

there are actually a lot of different ways to punish a missed rest depending on percent and if there is a platform blocking you from doing a turnip set up

you can z drop a turnip >nair if you want to just get that extra few percent

if they are at 0 or really low, i like nair > dash attack

charge dsmash is one of the dumbest way's to punish rest unless you are doing the turnip set up so it hits twice, or at least it is in my opinion

EDIT: what could be cool is if you know the sweetspot for the golf club, and charge that, though idk if it would have more knockback than nair but i'd assume so

 

[JFox]

I'm gonna take the time to get good at turnip drop combos

id like to try out turnip drop>dair>nair.

btw, macd is right, dsmash is almost never the best punish. one hit is only maybe 15% tops, and nair has better knockback so dsmash sucks as a kill move. overall pretty poor choice. MAYBE decent if u can do turnip drop dsmash like macd said

 

[DoH]

I'm pretty sure a fully charged downsmash has more power than a nair.

 

[MacD]

but if that is true, then you might as well learn the golf club sweat spot because that fully charged should have more knockback than dsmash, and you can't accidently hit with the raquet or pan since the range on the club is longer than the other two

 

[crismas]

Fully charged dsmash is def. stronger than a nair.

I say if you're going for percentage why not ground fc dair into nair, right on top of jiggs, it causes about 20/21%.

Personally speaking I haven't mastered the turnip throw usmash kill so I just usually go for fsmashes.

 

[TresChikon]

Well whatever you guys do, there's always enough time for a taunt.

I believe that is the best form of psychological punishment for a failed rest.

 

[bladeofapollo]

While I'm here, you all should check out my awesome Stitchface combo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbl0dQ0lj2M
@5:57

 

[JFox]

You could have just as easily held it, did an empty sh, went into float, FC nair'd him when he went into shine, than hit with the stitch face. Im not a fan of throwing away a 30% item for one bair

 

[DoH]

That was a terrible decision Apollo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgr4AJWKBvg

try something like this, @ 2:00

also, people help me out vs doc

 

[JFox]

punishing missed rest

there are actually a lot of different ways to punish a missed rest depending on percent and if there is a platform blocking you from doing a turnip set up

Got some.

If jiggs is at 0% the best combo i could think pull off (true combo in training mode) was a dtilt fc uair nair for 38%. For this one u dont even need to worry about platforms. However, after jiggs gets over 0% this becomes almost impossible =/

Most realistic damage i could tack on-

(JFox combo?)

Stand right next to jiggs. Pull a turnip and hard throw it straight up. Pull another turnip and hold onto it. Then to a dair right above jiggs head. What should happen is during the 4 hits of the dair, the first turnip u throw up will fall and hit jiggs, but she will still be stuck in your dair. Finish the dair to fc nair combo, still with the second turnip in hand. (optional) after the fc Nair hard throw the second turnip as jiggs is flying away. Then try to connect a dash attack after the second turnip hit.

A few things to know- If there is a platform overhead, obviously the first turnip wont hit cuz it will hit the platform, so that means you lose ~7% in the combo. You can still do it, but just know it wont be as good.

Also, everything before the "optional" part will actually combo if done correctly. I did the first half of the combo with a stitch face and it still counted all 6 hits in training mode (56% combo), so the turnip will not knock them out of the dair if done correctly. After the nair though, the rest is just an attempt to tack on more damage if the opponent is not careful. The second turnip doesnt truly combo, and landing it is impossible if they arent at low percent, but it never hurts to have a turnip in hand regardless so always pull that second turnip.

Dair to Nair- ~20%

The first half of that combo- (Dair, turnip, nair) will do ~28% with a smiley turnip (the weakest kind of turnip). It can also be done at any (practical) percent.

Full "combo"- ~44% total.


Edit: some other things- turnip throw upwards, charged dsmash. 3 hits for ~32% (weak turnip). (Note the one above is guaranteed to do only 4% less, and has a chance of doing way more...)

Fast FC nairs- Nair nair nair at low percent doesnt truly combo (i can only get two of them to combo ), but its not easy to get out of. Does ~38%.

Also, sweetspotted golf club as a kill move isnt that good, def not worth the trouble. Probably about the same power as charged dsmash.

Lastly, upsmash on sleeping jiggs is impossible to sweetspot. All you can get is that lousy weak hit.

 

[bladeofapollo]

You could have just as easily held it, did an empty sh, went into float, FC nair'd him when he went into shine, than hit with the stitch face. Im not a fan of throwing away a 30% item for one bair

That was a terrible decision Apollo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgr4AJWKBvg

try something like this, @ 2:00

also, people help me out vs doc

I'm not saying it was the best decision, I'm just excited it worked so well.

 

[Batmansince1939]

hey vanz i have some problems with falco....

once he is off stage he is dead for me but on stage is where i have trouble

how do i get out of throw up bairs?
and when playing a falco they will either nair me out of my fc laser approach or they will just holddown cc my dair and up smash me, and if i come in with a fair he will ussually wd back and forward smash or wd away from the fair and follow up with run away lasers?

how do i get passed all these things?

the only thing i got really against a falco other then off stage of coarse =) is double slap or cg...thats about it and cg in my opinion is very un effective

 

[The Irish Mafia]

One of the things I do to punish rest is frying pan
Better chance of a kill than golf club

@baman: Stay 1.5 body heights above him, and fastfall fc aerials to approach. if he tries to approach with lazer-nair, cc it to dsmash. Control with grabs, if you can ledgeguard him then grabs are your best friend. Turnips won't add up to much in this match, especially if he shines them, which can be a real pisser to peach. use them to assist your approach and to harass, but don't spam them. When approaching, toss the turnip right over his head to keep him from wding back or jumping. Dsmash a lot, falco gets nervous when he's off the stage and will panic if you're just smacking him all over the place. As for your uthrow bair problem, try just changing up your di.

 

[MacD]

Got some.
Also, sweetspotted golf club as a kill move isnt that good, def not worth the trouble. Probably about the same power as charged dsmash.

awww i was hoping for a use of the golf club's sweetspot

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Golf club is a crazy good ledgeguard. it's got range in league with sheik's ftilt, which is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[JFox]

irish mafia, you never know it, but you give such horrible advice. I swear so bad its funny, as if your trolling the peach boards. Lets just take a look at your two most recent posts...

Golf club blows as an edgeguard for the same reason that frying pan blows as a rest punisher- its random! Obviously if you knew which one you would get it would have application, but you dont. If you try to pan puff, and u get the wrong fsmash, you lose the opportunity to punish better. Also your better off killing off the sides for puff for all but maybe 15%, which is a small window of application. Golf club sucks because you would wanna use it as a sweetspot, and if u get a different fsmash, you will completely miss them, or worse- pan them and they wont even die.

I know I'm being harsh, and maybe even a ****, but plz this is supposed to be a thread where you give people advice. If ya dont know what you're talking about, just read and dont post. No point in confusing people.

 

[thesage]

I wish F-smash wasn't random, cuz then it'd be a good move.


I saw that drk. peach once posted that u-smash is really good. I barely ever use the move. Any tips on using it?

 

[MacD]

haha, i love love love upsmash

i use the weak hit to combo into aerials

the strong hit to kill people falling

it out prioitizes like every aerial in the game

like i said earlier i usmashed out of shield to kill a jiggs

hell, recently i combo'd a link with like 4 upsmashes (in tourney on FD) from like 10-60 because i hit once, stole his jump with the second one, and so he couldn't get out in time, it was hella funny

but i think the most practical use i have for it is when i dsmash someone at zero and the jump over me, like if i hit a marth with it, they always seem to jump over me and if you upsmash right after dsmash finishes, then it combo's, or like falcon's jump like that too, it's a pretty simple 0-40 combo (if dsmash hits twice) and you can try to follow up against falcon

for me, i started using usmash a lot and after spaming it for a little while, figured out where it can work and where it can't, and i've decided that's how a lot of things work

like everyone said ftilt sucks, and i mean on the whole it isn't practical, but you can kill floaties with it and you never know when you might end up in that situation where it's the best (kill) move since you do get the kill, and ftilt combos fast fallers into aeriels

idk how i ended up on that rant, but i'd love to hear other opinions about upsmash too

 

[Batmansince1939]

Yea for upsmash I use it
-a little for low plats like on yoshis
-on spacies as a ledgeguard
-to punish rest

and that all i use it for really and macd is right at least in my opinion....just kinda play around with spam it for a little while at maybe a fest or something till you get the hang of when and where it actually works

as for fsmash and ftilt i only really use them for one thing and that is spacies cg.....but i still don't suggest using them in my opinion ussually when i do them it just is be complete accendent and i end up just see them in the air and grab and start the cg from their laugh

 

[JFox]

I mix upsmash into shield pressure vs Fox/Falcon because those are the two characters that tend to full jump out of shield.

For example, a non-spaced fair to sweetspotted upsmash on someone's shield is strong enough to push them opponent out of grab range, but more importantly, it hits them if they try to jump OOS to avoid dsmash.

Wife uses the upsmash to catch people who try to get OOS with full jump. He's brilliant

 

[MacD]

oh yea, i forgot about using usmash on yoshi's platforms, i kill sheiks that way after they up b

and fair > upsmash sounds beautiful, gotta practice that, though i'll probably forget about it and never use it

 

[The Irish Mafia]

It's not completely random. It doesn't always proceed in a 1-2-3 manner, but it never uses the same one twice in a row, which makes predicting the next one not completely impossible.
I'm sorry if explaining the way I use an attack is bad advice, but I don't see anyone spewing fsmash wisdom all over the peach boards. It's one of my favorite moves, because people don't see it applied much.

usmash can be used to stop spacies from recovering on the stage horizontally. it's also the best punish idea if a jiggs whiffs a rest on a low platform, and good in teams because it's easy to sweetspot with throws.

 

[JFox]

right, it never uses the same one twice, so as long as you remember what you last got, it has a 50% chance of doing the one you want (unless the one u want was the one u last got, in which case it has a 0% chance). Meaning theres a 50% chance of waking up a sleeping jiggs with the wrong move, and a 50% chance of missing an edgeguard.

Personally, i'm not too into leaving things like that to luck considering peach has quite a few options to use. I prefer to use the option that works 100% of the time, so long as I space and time correctly...thats just me though.

Fsmash as a move is decent because peach lacks ground attacks that space in front of her, and the fc fair takes so long to get out. The only problem is spacing the fsmash, because you never know whats actually coming. But fsmash def has value to it, no doubt. I just wouldnt use it for either of the uses you mentioned for the reasons I listed previously.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I never said using fsmash was the best idea in a situation, I simply said that it was an option. I've never actually used pan to punish rest, I usually fthrow or dsmash. Don't think I'm some kid who acts like he's god's gift to melee; I know I'm not great. I'm just trying to spread some of my ideas, especially the ones that work. Fsmash isn't always one of them.

Look, Jfox, I really don't want to come off as a scrub, because I'm not, and I don't want to think that you're a *******, because I know you aren't. In fact, I've heard you're a pretty cool guy, and I'm willing to believe it. I know that I don't always do the perfect move in every situation, that's a skill that I still need to pick up with experience. Until I do, I'm probably gonna make posts about my playstyle, not all of which you may agree with.


Anyway, I have a MM I'd like some advice on.
Match 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84I14-x2NQQ
Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31i0w2OXigw
Match 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0G5sKKFwgE
I know I dsmash too much, I've cut back since this but still need to work on it. I've also improved my fc fair spacing, float height work, and use of other aerials. Any and all advice is appreciated.
1500th post.

 

[bladeofapollo]

Fsmash is good against Ledge-hopping Sheiks. It's also pretty good for hitting people above you on Yoshi's Story. Most of the time you'd be better off Nair'ing though.

 

[Cia]

Anyway, I have a MM I'd like some advice on.
Match 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84I14-x2NQQ
Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31i0w2OXigw
Match 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0G5sKKFwgE
I know I dsmash too much, I've cut back since this but still need to work on it. I've also improved my fc fair spacing, float height work, and use of other aerials. Any and all advice is appreciated.
1500th post.

Your Peach seems pretty solid. I didn't see any major faults. Just a few mistakes here and there and some general things you should work on improving.

In the first match, I noticed that you were on the top platform at some point and you Fsmashed while Fox was standing on the ground. While I believe that may have been a mistake try not to do any smashes on a get up. Most people suspect Dsmash and wait so they can punish. if you wake up on a platform, just fly away.

In the second match, Fox pretty much ***** with Uairs. So work on SDI. I usually do up and away, but Jfox and KirbyKaze recommend SDI'ing behind Fox. That might be better.

I also saw Fox kill you at 95% with Fsmash. It may have been a mistake and even after factoring YS' close blast zone, I still think you could have survived that. So you may need to work on improving your DI.

2:19 - Bair > Tech Chase Dash Attack > Pull Turnip. I was with you up until that point (that's exactly what I would have done.) but I would have thrown the turnip up because many foxes like to jump back to the stage right away. after that, every option is covered with Peach's Nair. airdodge? Nair. Catches Turnip? Nair. Got hit? Nair combo. Fox Nairs? Trade Nairs. Peach *****.

Third Match:

beginning Uthrow > nothing? even if it's to early to chain grab, go for the Dsmash or Dash attack. It's infinitely more profitable and possibly lead to more grabs :D A spacie that's worried about being CG'd or Dsmash will usually tech roll away from Peach, so don't worry about covering the instant tech option.

3:00 - that was a really late reaction and you could've had the game at this moment. actually this moment was the birth of a series of errors.. lol. Maybe you were nervous?

Overall, just float camp a little more. Lasers won't touch you at the right height and some of Peach's most devastating combo's start with a Fair. (which i don't remember seeing any of) Even a blocked Fair = Grab. so more of those plz.

Nice Matches.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I credit my placing at MM17 to brawl, actually. I learned how to camp and not go offensive. As I said before, these vids are a little old, and my playstyle has improved by leaps and bounds. I started float camping FC fair, which helped more than anything, and focused less on tech skill and more on spacing. I also cut back on the dsmash.

Don't even try to ask me to stop dsmashing on platforms. People may catch on, but they always go for it. I'll have a combo vid trailer soon, which will be all gay dsmashes on platforms.


As for the 3rd match, I was nervous. I don't know how I stand skill-wise with the other player, we had a set at MM17 in which I completely forgot how to chaingrab, but clutched the first match at +100 percent, against even my expectations. I have never been happier playing smash than when I won that first match. My fox then got 2 stocked on pokefloats, but I realized that even my fox was keeping him on his toes, which gave me some confidence. I finished the set with Mute, which he forgot to ban, and won.

HOWEVER:
We had done equal in all our other pools matches. We both ***** the scrubs, and lost to Gmoney and Darc. Gmoney, though, went Young Link vs him on pokefloats, which I consider throwing a match. Anyway, he was up one game on me, so I had to 2-0 him if I wanted to make it out of pools. Since I 2-1'd him, it went to a third set.
I won the neutral, which I believe was FoD, one of my favorite stages, mostly because everyone else hates it. I won, but he took me to FD, and I lost for some reason. I finished the set by ****** him on DL64.
I then got ***** by kevinM in the bracket, once again, because I forgot how to CG, and then got 2-1'd by Skler. Note to self: link gets ***** on Brinstar.

That's pretty much my whole tournament right there. Thanks for the advice, Vans

:D

 

[ConnorTheKid]

IrishMafia, Jfox is right, please shhhhhh

 

[JFox]

connor the kid!

nice avatar bud. i watched ur peach in teams (w/ macd) and u looked pretty BA dude