USB Gecko is the new Action Replay! (added potential goals)

[JVMetaknight]

What's wrong with a wider field of players brought on by a lower skill curve? I either feel left behind or mildly repulsed by obsession over niggling details.

 

[NES n00b]

What's wrong with a wider field of players brought on by a lower skill curve? I either feel left behind or mildly repulsed by obsession over niggling details.

....well then Brawl was made for you and you don't like competitive games. You don't want to have to learn GOOD FOR YOU!!!! But this doesn't make a deep competitive game by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.> Most people who didn't play Melee competitively didn't think it had a huge learning curve. I certainly didn't before the competitive scene.
I just thought, "Hey, I just have to remember to use my 3rd jump and shield attacks, and I should be fine!"

No matter what smash game we're playing, the casual level is always at about that level.

Now, when we want to be competitive, in a real competitive environment, using Skill should be what matters. The higher the skill curve, the more skill needed. The more skill, the more competitive it gets, and so on.

Brawl lacks that skill curve, and therefore lacks that competitiveness that melee had.
-DD

 

[Taymond]

What's wrong with a wider field of players brought on by a lower skill curve? I either feel left behind or mildly repulsed by obsession over niggling details.

There's nothing wrong with a lower skill curve and appearing to a larger audience, in terms of.. being a video game. It's a smart move on Nintendo's part.

There is, however, a problem in terms of being a competitively viable video game. A competitive game needs to have adequate reward for an investment of time. The more you play, the more obviously better you should be. There should be things to learn, things to practice, in order to improve. The game should be hard, not easy.

 

[Adamated]

I agee with you DD, it doesn't even seem like a fighter anymore to me. It starting to be a shooter >.>
But seriously, I loved melee because I could take on my friends and win most of the time, because I had put so much time into it, but now I can get beaten, on a bad day for me, by someone who just bought the game. I just think that with a shifty learning curve, we are going to have trouble keeping this game alive in the competitve scene.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

a terribly dangerous road to go down

 

[falcon_for_life_and_for_smash]

do you speak greek?

 

[deathborn00]

well this is lame....

instead of adapting to a game that took years to make, people decide to change it illegally.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

Can this AR subsitute get me a Bowser Jr. trophy?

If so, I'm all for it.

 

[Fuego]

To all the haters in this thread. Nobody cares. If you don't want to play this, don't play it. Lots of people got bored of melee and so we looked forward to brawl for years, only to be disappointed. We wanted an update of the franchise we love, not a *******ization of it.

Don't try to tell us we're mistaken in our judgement, we dislike brawl not out of error. We didn't go "whoops, I don't like brawl, I made a mistake I guess." We are bored of it because it is easy, shallow, and campy. If you disagree, and you're not bored of it... good for you, enjoy it.

We want a game that is different enough from melee to be fresh and new without destroying the core mechanics that made melee an effective competitive fighter. Is that so unreasonable?

Will this be melee 2.0? Hopefully it will... that'd be a big improvement. We're not trying to force you to play this version (which doesn't even exist yet, and probably never will) so don't try to force us to play your version (which indeed already exists and is a disappointment.)

The actual likelihood of this project bearing fruit is very low, simply due to its' high difficulty. However I wish the OP the best of luck, and if you guys can get a successful hack I am in full support.

I would also like to make a humble suggestion for the name. The term 'Yanks', was originally a derogatory phrase used for Americans, but eventually the very targets of that derision began to call themselves 'yanks' out of pride. I think you should call it 'Melee 2.0', so we can do the same.

 

[DragonBlade]

well this is lame....

instead of adapting to a game that took years to make, people decide to change it illegally.

I'd just like to add that there's nothing illegal about this. There is no modification of Wii components or use of copyrighted material. There is also significant precedent for use of tools like this (Game Genie, Game Shark, AR, etc).

Find something better to do instead of trying to spread around bull**** because you don't like the idea.

 

[JDCAce]

Oh, my, no. This is a bad idea. What you're talking about, DragonBlade, is creating a new game. In the home, this may be fine (if all parties involved agree to such an altered match), but this should in no way be implemented into tournaments. I for one don't play in tournaments (unless they're free and close to me), but having a "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" tournament with a game that only resembles Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a terrible, terrible error. Sure, there could be clearly posted "MODIFIED Super Smash Bros. Brawl" tournaments implementing these changes, but these should not be in the majority, not by a long shot.

PS - An ad for Defenders of Wildlife? "How many wolves have to die?" Are we really their target demographic? Oh, wait; ads by Google. Google "read" the many instances of Wolf, as in Star Fox's Wolf, and gave us that ad. Heh heh.

 

[MarKO X]

I'm all for removing the tripping. That would be great. My guess is that tripping isn't a physic, but rather a random number generator that occurs everytime one dashes. Example: for the dash, there's probably a set of numbers (1-100), and everytime you dash, a random number between 1 and 100 in generated. If the number is 1, you trip. Get rid of 1, and you'll never trip. DO IT!

THe vast majority of those other modifications (adding hitstun, bring back L-cancelling), that'll just ruin the game in my opinion, and A LOT of characters will be broken because of it. (Marth, Pit, MetaKnight, Fox, Falco, Sonic, Kirby, Pikachu, Ness, Lucas... well, you get the picture). trying to makr a Melee out of Brawl... I wouldn't be surprised if they figured out how to bring WDing back as well.

 

[Maikeru17]

I love how kids come in and get angry at the idea.
Grow up.
It's like playing a special brawl match, just, with better and more competitive options.
If all of the goals under set's one and two are reached, Brawl will actually be worth playing competitively, and once MLG hears about it, and with enough of our representatives pointing towards this being standard, MLG will most likely make it the default set-up.

I for one would spend any extra money (or whatever) to play Brawl with these modifications.
If you dislike the idea, tough luck, kiddies, host your own tournament with a bunch of kids who think mix-ups and multi-hit standard A attacks are combos, lul.

As for the project itself, as much as I'd like to, I wouldn't be able to help in any way, I'm not educated in this area. :[
However, thorough testing is what I'm good at.
If you ever need a tester, definitely hit me up. I'd love to see this project become successful.

-Nox`

 

[MarKO X]

But what I don't get is how people cannot play Brawl "competitively." What makes Brawl so "uncompetitive" that one would make a team that would modify the game so that it can play like a game that it was trying to not be like?

Just win the game. Yeah, you'll trip, big deal. There are no 0 to death combos in the game. Great.

It's gonna sound like a great idea until Pit spams his side special all day, MetaKnight spams A, and Sonic ends up having an spindash > fair infinite...

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the auto-edge grab. It actually helps more then it hurts, and is quite useful. Especially with fat characters. The strategic values it can add are really good, and it makes recovery easier so we can focus more on the actual combat. Oks, "sliding up" Battlefield backwards is always intresting, and we'd be getting rid of intresting things like that. I think we outta leave that as is. At least for Brawl.

And why can't we just get rid of tripping, add some more lag cancelling (automatic [seems easier]), and play Heavy Brawl? Heavy Brawl already has more DI then smash 64 and Melee, but not too much, and very good offensive and defensive balance. O, and then make Sonic and a few other characters' recoveries better, of course. Basically, Heavy Brawl arleady has a lot of that stuff. Maybe a bit more hitstun would help, but generally it has basically everything you need once we add L-cancelling, get rid of tripping, add in actually useful dash dancing, "fix" wavelanding, and RETURN WAVEDASHING! (inconvential multi-directional air dodging FTW!) I wanna wave dash as Toon Link ALREADY! XD *begs* Seriously though, why is everyone so anti-Heavy Brawl=???

And don't forget to test this (heavily; with all characters) as well. Good luck balancing this, because it'll be a pain in the ***!

O, and try to dig up as much stuff, info, and files of "The Forbidden Seven" as you can. Screenshots, moves, and above all, the characters themselves. If we can hack into the game and play them, balanced, unbalanced, finished or unfinished, we'll have a 46 character roster, and that many more options. And best of all, we-the community, can balance them the way we find right. The way we will balanced everything else out into a true fan's game. Whatever you can find that we can use is good. Maybe even dig up some of the music as well (if you can). After all this balancing and modding, we won't be playing Masahiro Sakurai's Super Smash Bros. Brawl. We will be playing the fan's Super Smash Bros. Brawl! How do you like the sound of that, eh?

O, and Balancing this seriously will take a LOOOOONNNNNGGGG TIIIMMMMMEEEEEE!!! I'd be willing to help the testing, though. Overall this can be REALLLYYYY good. We can moderate and fix the tiers, to where they are more fully balanced, and EVEN to the point of possibly not existing, even. With a lot of hard work, a lot of community back up, and so forth, this could be a really good thing. We could get rid of tiers, balance the game, return all forms of offense options, and return the offense and defense balance to smash, as well as recovery balance. (KEEP AUTO EDGE GRABBING!) But as I said, this will take time. In other words, make the "perfect" competitve fighting game in every sense of the word, that was created by Sakurai AND THE FANS!

Edit: O, and there are TONS of broken n00b combos. Falco's wall laser infinite, Falco's up to 50% chain grab, De3's chain grab, Shiek's fTilt combo, Ice Climbers infinite, etc. Don't even get me started on brokeness. The only thing like that we had in Melee was the IC Melee infinite, some moderate chain grabbing (goes up to about 40 or 50 %), and Wobbling.

To be simple, you play the game your way. We'll play smash however the heck we want. This is how we want to play competitively. Unless you play us competitively, this will not effect you in any way, shape, or form. Mkay?

 

[Toadster5]

But what I don't get is how people cannot play Brawl "competitively." What makes Brawl so "uncompetitive" that one would make a team that would modify the game so that it can play like a game that it was trying to not be like?

Just win the game. Yeah, you'll trip, big deal. There are no 0 to death combos in the game. Great.

It's gonna sound like a great idea until Pit spams his side special all day, MetaKnight spams A, and Sonic ends up having an spindash > fair infinite...

It's boring. Playing seriously is a chore in this game.

 

[SiegKnight]

call it Smash Bros 3 plain out. Add flying battery music, hit stun, l cancel, faster game speed, less annoying sweetspotting, powershieldable unblockables, ordered team members ala SSE - no one can choose a main in this game. NO ONE - at least as an option.

Playable game right thurrr.

actually, provided I get into the idea of modding this too via usb gecko or anything, I had a cool idea for a new defensive move where, if you powershielded a move in 2-4 or so frames as opposed to whatever framegap it does offer you (seems to be 10-20) you create a sort of ripple in time and space, and make an electric shock destroying things around you. This is so, in FFAs and 3 v 1s, a tourney player or a pro doesn't get ganked up on. You would be able to do it on anything thats not a physical move. that includes thrown items, stage hazards, etc. The ripple only happens around your shield, meaning it doesn't affect 1 v 1s much. But it does send projectiles back at the opponent ala Melee (at light speed).

weird idea I know. but if I could mod the game, I'm so doing that. I'd also make normal powershield make projectiles bounce back, but varify the accuracy/speed depending on how well you timed it. (a lazy or clumsy powershield would make them bounce off randomly in any direction)

I wonder if you could make plusle and minun playable to. Give them a special to make a thunderbolt between them, make their down b switch which of them is in the lead and give them different specials, have a special to make one wait, etc. A friend of mine (I don't use ims much these days though) made some of them ideas, I thought it'd be epic to have them in.

I also wanted it so you could press R over people like Pikachu, Lucario, Marth, Mario, etc, to get Pichu, Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr Mario respectively as modified movesets/rules. Though Mewtwo is different enough to warrant his own char slot.

Since Melee built itself into Brawl off the same base according to Sakurai and the Fox dude said he's messing with the game based on the same encryption code, it'd be badass.

I'd call it just Smash Bros 3 if I could do all that.

I doubt I could - or anyone could - make new stages, but I'd like all the old melee stages back in, preferably by making it a single layer dvd and thus killing the load time troubles (along with sse cutscenes but who gives a ****, I'd find it more replayable if it had no story actually, haha)

probably could never do any of this though. I still miss melee mute city and fountain of dreams...

edit - Uh also~ It'd be pretty cool if Falcon was less nerfed. L cancel is enough to fix Ganon and Bowser, but of other unusables theres alot; Yoshi for one. More importantly IMO is Falcon and Sonic. Sonic doesn't feel like Sonic. I'd make him faster in the air, spindash would be far more fearsome and vacuum enemies in while charging like in his games, and he'd just be stronger. Sonic needs to feel more faster and crazier than at least Fox. I feel more agile as Fox. Not faster per say, but in Smash speed translates better to agility. Sonic needs more of that. Even more running speed would be crazy, but not unreasonable as he's... Sonic.

Falcon... needs everything reverted to Melee except appearence, haha.

 

[Shibby]

I say good luck ... but this looks pretty doubtful because everyone will need to get one of these things to play that way. And this company would just be banking huge.

(I assume you probably work for them and will receive quite a large payout if this flys)

 

[Sportsfan]

Wow, this sounds pretty crazy...but could make lots of people happy if you get it to work. Pretty cool stuff if you can actually pull off the manipulation of the game.

 

[rabbt]

You can't ADD stuff to games with the Gecko (could you ADD Sonic to melee with AR? NO!) You can change values in the memory space the game is using. What this means is things like tripping can be set to 0, shields can be changed (IE: how fast they shrink), lag times can be altered, and other things. You won't be able to add alternate costumes, characters, stages, "lightning ripples on shields", or anything like that.

 

[MarKO X]

Still sounds like you'll be ruining the game to me. I find it very easy to play this game competitively when it's time to get down to business. I'm entering a few tournaments this month, and my Sonic and Marth skills will be easy to allow me to go "competitive" when you tell me it's tournament time. Of course, just like with Melee, it's absolutely necessary to zap any possible fun out of competition.

Honestly, I hope the project succeeds, since it's been brought up and apparently the majority wants this to be successful, but if it does and becomes some sort of an MLG standard, then I can honestly say that my Brawl career will be finished.

If you really wanna change values, get rid of the lag of online play, and take out item malfunctions...

 

[SiegKnight]

You can't ADD stuff to games with the Gecko (could you ADD Sonic to melee with AR? NO!) You can change values in the memory space the game is using. What this means is things like tripping can be set to 0, shields can be changed (IE: how fast they shrink), lag times can be altered, and other things. You won't be able to add alternate costumes, characters, stages, "lightning ripples on shields", or anything like that.

You make me a sad panda

Edit - though I thought you could add stuff through a data imput since its a usb device.

I GUESS TECHNOLOGY IS NOT THAT FAR HUH GUYS

I WONDER WHATS FOR DINNER

OH BOY

I CAN'T WAIT TO EAT SOME OF TOON LINKS ARROWS

edit 2 - wait**** its link who says that, heh. then again link is kinda useless compared to him...

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Still sounds like you'll be ruining the game to me. I find it very easy to play this game competitively when it's time to get down to business. I'm entering a few tournaments this month, and my Sonic and Marth skills will be easy to allow me to go "competitive" when you tell me it's tournament time. Of course, just like with Melee, it's absolutely necessary to zap any possible fun out of competition.

Honestly, I hope the project succeeds, since it's been brought up and apparently the majority wants this to be successful, but if it does and becomes some sort of an MLG standard, then I can honestly say that my Brawl career will be finished.

If you really wanna change values, get rid of the lag of online play, and take out item malfunctions...

Guys, I think we should cancel this project. I don't want us to lose someone as well known as MarKO. Wait... who?

Lol@using the Gecko to fix Brawl's horrible online play, you have no idea what you're talking about.

JohnKnight and SiegKnight are ******** as all hell.

If you don't like this idea, then just ignore it.

It's not going to "ruin Brawl", seriously. Just hush up already. Every single person that's complained about it thus far isn't even noteworthy, and most haven't even existed on SWF for more than 5 months. Just be quiet and let people enjoy the game how they want to. Simple as that.

 

[Cheesedork]

Ok, neither side in this argument is making any progress.
For those of us who disapprove of this, just sit back and watch it die. There's a very low chance that this will work. They said it themselves.
And if it does, I won't care. I live in Montana, so it's not like it'll corrupt my non-existent tournys.

 

[SiegKnight]

actually I'm not gonna bother responding to that. gen brawl disc suuucksssssssssssssss

 

[defsithe]

lets just play melee and use our imagination to make it "look" prettier and save u guys a year of work. im all for making brawl not suk. good stuff

 

[Taymond]

Oh, my, no. This is a bad idea. What you're talking about, DragonBlade, is creating a new game. In the home, this may be fine (if all parties involved agree to such an altered match), but this should in no way be implemented into tournaments. I for one don't play in tournaments (unless they're free and close to me), but having a "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" tournament with a game that only resembles Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a terrible, terrible error. Sure, there could be clearly posted "MODIFIED Super Smash Bros. Brawl" tournaments implementing these changes, but these should not be in the majority, not by a long shot.

First off: Counterstrike. DotA. Any game with a good map editor. Myth 2 and Mazz. SC and the dozens of UMS maps that ignore the game itself. Don't proclaim "obvious bad idea" if you don't know what you're talking about. There's more than enough successful precedent.

Secondly, no one is suggesting this take over the tournament scene. There is absolutely no way that would happen. Do you freak out that Jack Keiser's ISP is going to take over competitive play? No. Because it's obviously going to be played by a minority. This is no different. Brawl has more than a large enough fanbase to support several tournament standards.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I don't know why people are arguing. If you look at any great game as Taymond has already stated, there's a big modding community to support the tastes and playstyles of certain players. That's all it is. It is not going to ruin anything.

 

[washy]

People at smogon are calling us idiots for having this discussion.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37850&page=90

 

[Toadster5]

People at smogon are calling us idiots for having this discussion.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37850&page=90

lmao those clowns don't know anything

 

[ph00tbag]

The only goals that I see as completely necessary are increasing hitstun and removing tripping. The game is different now, so making it entirely like Melee doesn't have to be a goal.

I'd definitely be happy with most changes, though.

My only major issue is that auto-ledgegrab may be the functionality that allows tethers to function at all, so you should be careful with changing that aspect.

 

[Taymond]

People at smogon are calling us idiots for having this discussion.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37850&page=90

Who cares? They're just all the same people criticizing the thread here, only without the few intelligent, reasonable posters we've got. Don't they have like.. 4 Brawl threads? And we're supposed to be devestated by the severity and accuracy of their opinions?

 

[DragonBlade]

I have some good news. I have received confirmation from a pro that it should be possible to create a wii homebrew application that will apply the mod without the gecko hardware, but the gecko will still be required for development. It will probably take some hardcore programing to get this app working, but if it does work, then it would make the mod accessible for nearly everyone. At that point anyone could download the "file", put it on a SD card, run it on the wii, and play with the mod.

Of course this is still very theoretical, and still have a long way to go before we get solid results if its even possible. Yes, this is a post about some news regarding a reply about the confirmation of the possibility of a feature that we might consider working on. You can laugh if you want. I know I am.

 

[Ndot]

Awesome news Dragonblade. Oh, and on Smogon I am owning them for what they are saying. I'm the Marshall guy on there, they can't say anything, cause all my arguments are right, they don't know what they are saying. lol. But if anyone would like to join me in defending this, come help me, like Taymond or someone.

 

[Boxob]

Seriously, can we call it Melee 2.0? I love that name.

That way all the idiots who are all like 'zomg iz not myle3 to points' can stop.

 

[leafgreen386]

Because thats not changing the machanics all together. Thats just changing the number of items some one has, now if some one changed a value to go super fast, then they can not join. I do agree it is VERY annoying tho =(.

Unfortunately not true. Ever heard of 150cc cheating? Well, technically you could go up to 170cc on wifi without the game crashing. But yes, you can mod your speed. You would most likely be able to mod things the same way online as you could offline. So people would most likely be able to play online with these mods.

Awesome news Dragonblade. Oh, and on Smogon I am owning them for what they are saying. I'm the Marshall guy on there, they can't say anything, cause all my arguments are right, they don't know what they are saying. lol. But if anyone would like to join me in defending this, come help me, like Taymond or someone.

I'm a regular at smogon, and was going to argue over there anyway. I'll gladly join you.

I have some good news. I have received confirmation from a pro that it should be possible to create a wii homebrew application that will apply the mod without the gecko hardware, but the gecko will still be required for development. It will probably take some hardcore programing to get this app working, but if it does work, then it would make the mod accessible for nearly everyone. At that point anyone could download the "file", put it on a SD card, run it on the wii, and play with the mod.

That's good to hear.

The gravity increase will make escaping from a combo and recovering slightly more difficult. It is likely the new gravity will be somewhere between heavy Brawl's and normal Brawl's gravity. People say this is not a good idea because characters with multiple jumps will become less effective. However, I think the increased hit lag can balance this out. The shorter jumps these characters have should balence out the ability to chain multiple aerials together because of the new hit lag if these values are set appropriately.

I don't particularly like the idea of changing the gravity, actually. That's one part of the physics I really think needs to be left alone. Aerials need to be able to auto-cancel (the chances of us being able to reinstate a form of l-canceling are VERY low), and we need to NOT wreck a ton of characters' recoveries. There's also the fact that changing the gravity basically completely changes the game. It would make it harder for someone to switch between regular brawl and "melee 2.0." I'm all for trying it out, but I think some characters will need to have other values edited (ie. force exerted on the character when they jump) to make it work. Characters with short short hops already would need that increased, as well, since their sh's wouldn't even allow them to perform aerials anymore with increased gravity. And.... not every attack in the game should necessarily have its hitlag increased by THAT much. When a character would clearly be able to do consistent 0-deaths with very little effort involved, and few real drawbacks, then maybe that character should have less hitstun on their moves (I think metaknight will be a prime example of this).

The basis of dash dancing is there in Brawl, but it does not let you gain distance, fixing this part could store the functionality as seen in Melee and the Brawl demo.

This might actually be easier than we think, depending on how they coded it. There might even be a universal value in the game saying the first "x" number of frames of the dash animation you can dash the other way in. If so, we'd just need to change that number to the number of either the longest (time-wise) character's opening dash animation, or the shortest (time-wise). If the game crashes whenever a character tries to dash, that'd probably be a bad thing, which is why you might have to go the latter route. Of course, they might all last the same number of frames, which would make things even easier. I don't know.

Since characters cannot grab the edge out of most attacks, there must be some attribute they gain while attacking that prevents this. This attribute needs to be applied during recovery moves. The "edge size" probably an other value or values in the memory.

Er... you realize that given certain conditions, some recoveries in melee grabbed the ledge before the attack finished, right? Fox's upB canceled if you came from above, and his sideB also canceled when sweetspotted properly. While I'll agree that attacks shouldn't cancel as easily as they do, some attacks were meant to cancel.

Also, seconding calling the project "melee 2.0."

 

[SonicLucario]

This is interesting to me.I don't want to jump to conclusions but I honestly would like this to work.However I won't lose any sleep over it.Here's to hoping

 

[Brandon72196]

Unfortunately not true. Ever heard of 150cc cheating? Well, technically you could go up to 170cc on wifi without the game crashing. But yes, you can mod your speed. You would most likely be able to mod things the same way online as you could offline. So people would most likely be able to play online with these mods.

sorry i ment to say that you changed the ENTIRE GAME to go faster, sorry.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

This post from smogon;

This will only be "more competitive" if you consider 0-60% unbreakable combos to be a competitive enhancer rather than a boost to several already powerful characters. Their version will not require "more skill," simply a different skillset. It is impossible to quantify the amount of skill required to play a certain game in absolute terms. For some people's playstyles, this new version of "Brawl" will require more skill to get used to, and others less. After all, we certainly need to enhance Metaknight's ability to score hit after hit after hit, further increase Pit's ability to score hits with A combo and forward B, and in general leave any combatant who isn't prone to massive combo potential (Ike, Ganondorf) in the dust.

Smashboards just doesn't like change, and they can't stand that Marth is not a demi-god anymore. They want back their 0-60% combos, they never want to be fouled up from their graceful combos by an errant trip. They think it is a pinnacle of high skill to use Up-Tilt-Up-Tilt-Up-Tilt-Up-Tilt-Up-Smash. Huzzah for them. No-one is stopping them from warping Brawl into Melee 2.0 as an ego-stroke. Just don't call it Brawl, and don't pretend it's the same game.

It rings so true...