Upcoming 1.0.4 Balance Patch in November!

[Signia]

So it's confirmed that they've patched some of the fun. Anyone check to see if doing an empty pivot still makes you slide while in the idle standing state (the "perfect pivot" tech)?

 

[Shaya]

If this thread cannot remain talking about THIS UP COMING patch, the thread needs to die. Nothing is really being gained with some of these abrasive conversations.

Heads up, warning, etc; thank you

 

[Tristan_win]

It's so hard to restrain myself whenever I see anyone saying Sheik needs to be nerf.

If anything there's a few quality of life improves that she really needs.

Like improve utilt hit box and raise it's priority, also for crying out loud make it a constant combo into the 2nd part. It's been 13 years, come on Nintendo.
The same could be said for fsmash, people shouldn't be able to escape without VI.
Dair is a lost cause I know that.
Give uthrow a purpose, I'll take anything, make it the most damaging throw, make it kill around 200% on Jigglypuff, just give it a reason to be in the game.
Remove free fall from side B, the move has enough lag as it is. If they must increase the lag in the air so be it but just remove free fall.
Give back our ****ing dsmash. I don't care what you have to do, cut the knock back in half, make it somehow do less damage but return it's forward hit box. It's stupid how it hits behind sheik first, something like the 15+ frame. It's range is also piss poor and it doesn't even last long enough to punish side steps and rolls half the time. This move has no purpose to such a extend that I've started crawling backwards into dtilts when people rolled into me for the 20th time.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Shiek needs to be buffed

Yeah see a lot of characters would love it if their bad moves became usable. Sheik has a usable movepool. Don't expect her to get it the buffs.

What I AM hoping for, however, is that Sakurai read the githubs tier list and buffs charizard even though he doesn't really need it.



More seriously, I would expect changes to be pretty minimal. A lot of tip toer nerfs are just fixes to beneficial bugs. Its too early to make a big sweep i think, and i hope he thinks it that way too.

 

[Shaya]

Quality of life things in exchange for removal of power elsewhere is a pretty fair (usually to the player's side at least) way to deal with a character. In League, often they still need to be continually toned down though across the board because an increase in options always results in more power/viability.

Don't need to facetiously misquote him.
But yeah, please @ Tristan_win , no more. We don't know what changes Sheik got (if any) in this patch.

 

[Tristan_win]

Yeah see a lot of characters would love it if their bad moves became usable. Sheik has a usable movepool. Don't expect her to get it the buffs.

What I AM hoping for, however, is that Sakurai read the githubs tier list and buffs charizard even though he doesn't really need it.



More seriously, I would expect changes to be pretty minimal. A lot of tip toer nerfs are just fixes to beneficial bugs. Its too early to make a big sweep i think, and i hope he thinks it that way too.

edit: Okay I'll stop. o///o

 

[SonicZeroX]

Well turns out the rumors of Luma being unable to attack during grab nerfs are false. You can see Pink Rosa's Luma do a bunch of attacks while she's being grabbed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms&t=23

Overall it's probably likely there are very few actual nerfs/buffs. It's probably going to be mostly bugfixes.

 

[RATED]

Since Super Casual Brawl was released.

Lets be friends. Looool you got a warning for that reply? People are soft these days.

It's so hard to restrain myself whenever I see anyone saying Sheik needs to be nerf.

If anything there's a few quality of life improves that she really needs.

Like improve utilt hit box and raise it's priority, also for crying out loud make it a constant combo into the 2nd part. It's been 13 years, come on Nintendo.
The same could be said for fsmash, people shouldn't be able to escape without VI.
Dair is a lost cause I know that.
Give uthrow a purpose, I'll take anything, make it the most damaging throw, make it kill around 200% on Jigglypuff, just give it a reason to be in the game.
Remove free fall from side B, the move has enough lag as it is. If they must increase the lag in the air so be it but just remove free fall.
Give back our ****ing dsmash. I don't care what you have to do, cut the knock back in half, make it somehow do less damage but return it's forward hit box. It's stupid how it hits behind sheik first, something like the 15+ frame. It's range is also piss poor and it doesn't even last long enough to punish side steps and rolls half the time. This move has no purpose to such a extend that I've started crawling backwards into dtilts when people rolled into me for the 20th time.

You want sheik to be better? Thanks Smashboards.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well turns out the rumors of Luma being unable to attack during grab nerfs are false. You can see Pink Rosa's Luma do a bunch of attacks while she's being grabbed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms&t=23

Overall it's probably likely there are very few actual nerfs/buffs. It's probably going to be mostly bugfixes.

Assuming it's just the time you linked to, I saw Rosalina try to jab but got grabbed (and Luma kept going because that's how the Luma do), bthrow happened, and then basically the moment the throw finished Luma did an attack that looked like neutral air, which would make sense if the Rosalina was mashing A with no directional input. This is consistent with what the nerf supposedly did, which is simply disallowing Luma from receiving inputs from Rosalina while Rosalina is grabbed. In 1.0.3 I would expect that Luma to continue into the rest of the jab combo.

Also note to self never do an 8 player Rosalina match.

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean, regular Pit's guiding arrows are a completely ridiculous move that pretty much let Pit hit anyone he wants whenever he wants. Like yeah guiding arrows are also Dark Pit's best version of the move if you ignore regular Pit's presence in the game, but I can't imagine ever picking them just because it's maximally emphasizing the way in which Dark Pit is inferior.

I will bite on your claims of him as a counterpick though. I can see using him vs Rosalina (take the huge arrow to pierce through Luma, same theory could work against Villager but with Pocket in play would seem to be too risky), but why Mac? Regular Pit can push Mac off-stage more easily with the superior ftilt, and regular Pit's superior guiding arrows would seem to represent a huge threat to Mac once off-stage (use the control to precision steal Mac's double jump -> dead Mac with the lower power being a double bonus since the hit itself gives Mac a little less launch to work with to try to get back). Both arm moves would seem to be mostly suicidal to use against Mac in general so even though Electrodash Arm has the possibility to put Mac off-stage (not really practical since it launches so high up) I don't see it as significant.

I'll be honest, I don't like the guiding arrows on Pit. Way too slow to catch people off guard from my experience, and you have tons of control over default arrows already. Obviously much better on DP, but even on him people get past them too easily from my experience.

The reasoning is the same for both: Electroshock Arm.

Practically OHKOs Luma, although if you're too close to Rosalina you'll get hit for it. Thankfully an aerial Electroshock pops you up into the air with a successful hit and still KOs Luma, but you can still be punished for it if you're too close. I don't have a ton of experience with Rosalina myself, and between that and the patch, I don't really know if/when it's a good idea to take a Fair to the face for KOing Luma or not.

Against Mac shows you the Electroshock's true purpose: Gimping. Electroshock beats out just about every recovery in the game, if not all, and flings the opponent at a steep angle. Obviously after Mac gets sent flying far enough, he'll only have Jolt Haymaker to recover with. Electroshock >>>>> Jolt Haymaker, and you know the rest.

 

[Kinslayer]

That's...pretty bad if that's what he has to rely on for aerial KOs alone. Why can't f-air have more KO potential?


So you want to nerf things that make sense on the char already? EVERY char approaching with a projectile is "xtra safe", there's already good lag on b-air + it doesn't KO early at all, and n-air... nearly every n-air is fast. The hell is that?

As for Pit, his KO options on the ground are all his smash attacks and Upperdash Arm. Those are pretty risky. F-tilt isn't what I'd consider a solid KO option.

Yeah yoshi, has a stronger offensive presence that most projectile based characters and recovers better than most. Most characters with projectile approaches can't bomb you with their projectile from 3/4 screen away like yoshi. So dont even start that one man.lol
You're just being really bias because you play yoshi

Also, im laughing at the guy saying shiek needs buffs. First and foremost no one has each and every throw that has a viable use. For Marth back throw is just there... It does nothing special, we take awhile to recover from it, and yeah. Shiek doesn't need another good throw because the good ones she has result in crazy juggles and tons of pressure. She doesn't the need damage or hitbox buffs because sheik has no issue applying dmage to the opponent by annoying ass needles, air juggles, and f tilt combos (which has super good priority and a nice hitbox as is).

 

[chipndip]

Yeah yoshi, has a stronger offensive presence that most projectile based characters and recovers better than most. Most characters with projectile approaches can't bomb you with their projectile from 3/4 screen away like yoshi. So dont even start that one man.lol
You're just being really bias because you play yoshi

Also, im laughing at the guy saying shiek needs buffs. First and foremost no one has each and every throw that has a viable use. For Marth back throw is just there... It does nothing special, we take awhile to recover from it, and yeah. Shiek doesn't need another good throw because the good ones she has result in crazy juggles and tons of pressure. She doesn't the need damage or hitbox buffs because sheik has no issue applying dmage to the opponent by annoying *** needles, air juggles, and f tilt combos (which has super good priority and a nice hitbox as is).

Here's the thing: Mario/Dr. Mario can cover their recovery path with projectiles just like Yoshi can. Lucario and Samus can shoot out fully charged KO moves while trying to recover too. Why nerf Yoshi's eggs when they already got a damage nerf for a range increase? That'd defeat the purpose of the range increase.

You're just whining like all my friends do because you DON'T play Yoshi. I can understand if you think he's good, but a bogus set of "fair buffs and nerfs" only tells me that you don't really know what you're talking about.

 

[Forever 9]

Lets be friends. Looool you got a warning for that reply? People are soft these days.

I indeed did lmao...

Anyways, I actually want Marth to be buffed to some extent. I don't find them at all threatening. I don't lose to Marth when I'm playing online. #marthslayer

 

[Kuraudo]

I indeed did lmao...

Anyways, I actually want Marth to be buffed to some extent. I don't find them at all threatening. I don't lose to Marth when I'm playing online. #marthslayer

The only real change I want for Marth is his range from Brawl to return. That being said, I know some Marth players that don't mind Marth in this version, but only because they had to master spacing and tipping in Brawl to begin with. It's not like Melee where if you don't hit with the tip, you have hitstun to guide you into combos. In Brawl and evidently, Smash 4, not spacing is painful to your gameplay, but the payoff is still incredibly worth it. Marth's tipper is the most powerful it's ever been.

 

[Yonder]

Lol Sheik, in the top 3 needing buffs? If that's not bias...

 

[DanGR]

@ ParanoidDrone

What is that movement at 1:47, where yellow Rosalina slides back? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms&t=1m45s

Also at 1:56 pink Rosalina gets grabbed and -during- the grab Luma d-tilted. You can tell it's her Luma because she recalled it, fsmashed, and then when thrown Luma followed her offstage.

edit: Also seems to happen to pink Rosalina at 0:27.

 

[Kinslayer]

Here's the thing: Mario/Dr. Mario can cover their recovery path with projectiles just like Yoshi can. Lucario and Samus can shoot out fully charged KO moves while trying to recover too. Why nerf Yoshi's eggs when they already got a damage nerf for a range increase? That'd defeat the purpose of the range increase.

You're just whining like all my friends do because you DON'T play Yoshi. I can understand if you think he's good, but a bogus set of "fair buffs and nerfs" only tells me that you don't really know what you're talking about.

I play yoshi... He is a secondary. So you running your mouth about what I don't know sounds stupid. Like I said you're just being biased and I have the replays to prove it.

That doesn't make samus' recovery good first she has to charge it on the ground, because in air she just fires off the charge she had. Also, she is pushes herself backward making it harder to recover, she must also go trough recovery frames which don't end quickly. Also, dr mario nor mario can cover **** while tryin to recover. he would already be recovered or the hitstun would go away before he tried his recovery. You can power shield and punish all of those things. So, your examples are terrible and your reasoning is irrelevant. Yoshi recovers fast and it alters the trajectory of his jump when used.

Also, it doesn't matter what buff he just got his approach is absurdly safe and you see people in the yoshi forum saying how extremely safe it is.

 

[Conda]

I play yoshi... He is a secondary. So you running your mouth about what I don't know sounds stupid. Like I said you're just being bias. I have the replays to prove it

Sorry, I've been seeing this everywhere on this board and reddit and just want to make a friendly correction:

It's biased. Not bias. Don't want this to become another "I'm hype!" situation

hyped

/offtopicandsilly

 

[AttackstorM]

If anyone knows the details of what changes they are going to be making to little mac please let me know!.


I strongly disagree with the changing character balance sooo early ! I don't think they should be treating a live production version of the game like it's still being beta tested !. The beta test phase is over, leave the characters alone =/ ....

 

[Thinkaman]

If anyone knows the details of what changes they are going to be making to little mac please let me know!.

I strongly disagree with the changing character balance sooo early ! I don't think they should be treating a live production version of the game like it's still being beta tested !. The beta test phase is over, leave the characters alone =/ ....

It's being treated like a beta because it is a beta.

The real game comes out Thursday night.

 

[Kinslayer]

It's being treated like a beta because it is a beta.

The real game comes out Thursday night.

They wouldn't patch the ds version if that was the case.

3ds will still be a thing because many people don't own a wii u.

 

[chipndip]

I play yoshi... He is a secondary. So you running your mouth about what I don't know sounds stupid. Like I said you're just being biased and I have the replays to prove it.

That doesn't make samus' recovery good first she has to charge it on the ground, because in air she just fires off the charge she had. Also, she is pushes herself backward making it harder to recover, she must also go trough recovery frames which don't end quickly. Also, dr mario nor mario can cover **** while tryin to recover. he would already be recovered or the hitstun would go away before he tried his recovery. You can power shield and punish all of those things. So, your examples are terrible and your reasoning is irrelevant. Yoshi recovers fast and it alters the trajectory of his jump when used.

Also, it doesn't matter what buff he just got his approach is absurdly safe and you see people in the yoshi forum saying how extremely safe it is.

Both Mario and Dr. Mario can, when recovering from above, use projectiles to cover themselves from attackers. Also, Mario can use his F.L.U.D.D. in reverse to push himself way towards the ledge before recovering. With that said, although Dr. Mario's somewhat flawed, true, Mario's got 2 extreme gimping specials and a f-air meteor smash, but we're whining about his own recovery to justify nerfing Yoshi's, who hardly has one outside of a saved double jump and a slight extra hop from throwing eggs?

Also his approach isn't all that safe if you don't play half-********. Dash attack is punishable, all his aerials have enough lag to punish too...hell, everything he has is relatively punishable if you aren't careful. Most of his kit requires a bit of spacing and timing to be truly overwhelming. Otherwise, people will just smack you around through the openings when they see them.

 

[Thinkaman]

They wouldn't patch the ds version if that was the case.

3ds will still be a thing because many people don't own a wii u.

They are patching the Portable Public Preview version because we are out of beta on Thursday.

 

[Kinslayer]

Both Mario and Dr. Mario can, when recovering from above, use projectiles to cover themselves from attackers. Also, Mario can use his F.L.U.D.D. in reverse to push himself way towards the ledge before recovering. With that said, although Dr. Mario's somewhat flawed, true, Mario's got 2 extreme gimping specials and a f-air meteor smash, but we're whining about his own recovery to justify nerfing Yoshi's, who hardly has one outside of a saved double jump and a slight extra hop from throwing eggs?

Also his approach isn't all that safe if you don't play half-********. Dash attack is punishable, all his aerials have enough lag to punish too...hell, everything he has is relatively punishable if you aren't careful. Most of his kit requires a bit of spacing and timing to be truly overwhelming. Otherwise, people will just smack you around through the openings when they see them.

I said increase the recovery so it isn't as safe. everyone's dash attack can be punished so yeah, but yoshi's dash attack recovery isn't long and has a good amount of forward momentum and active frames so he can his rollers, and has a shot at going behind you so you have to guess at times.

Also dash attack isn't his only means of approach. His best approaches are through the air not simply on the ground. You are attempting to make him seem worse than he actually is. Yoshi is freaking amazing in this game. Especially since he basically has a tether grab which goes only also adds to his offense

 

[Tristan_win]

Lol Sheik, in the top 3 needing buffs? If that's not bias...

Psh, Oh yeah. I know I'm crazy biased and I don't try to hide it. I mean just look at my avatar, pass games mains and created threads. It's pretty obvious who's side I'm on. Although with that all said I never said anything about sheik being in top 3. I'm sure there's plenty of characters with mechanics not working like they are suppose to or have useless moves which should take priority over her. ^-^ Can't a man vent a little?

I'm also secretly biased with Palutena but don't tell anyone.

 

[Kinslayer]

Psh, Oh yeah. I know I'm crazy bias and I don't try to hide it. I mean just look at my avatar, pass games mains and created threads. It's pretty obvious who's side I'm on. Although with that all said I never said anything about sheik being in top 3. I'm sure there's plenty of characters with mechanics not working like they are suppose or useless moves which should take priority over her. ^-^ Can't a man vent a little?

I'm also secretly bias to Palutena but don't tell anyone.

palutena needs someone to be on her side.lol

 

[Conda]

Psh, Oh yeah. I know I'm crazy bias and I don't try to hide it. [...]
I'm also secretly bias to Palutena but don't tell anyone.

Sorry, I've been seeing this everywhere on this board and reddit and just want to make a friendly correction:

It's biased. Not bias. Don't want this to become another "I'm hype!" situation

hyped

/offtopicandsilly

 

[chaos_Leader]

As a Lucario player (among a number of other characters), I wouldn't mind some tweaking to the ludicrous-aura. I'd welcome it, actually, especially if to compensate for less ludicrous aura scaling, Lacario got a little more range on his melee/aerial attacks, so the hitboxes would actually line up with the flame visuals.

also:

Spoiler

replace "meal" with "game"

 

[Yonder]

Psh, Oh yeah. I know I'm crazy biased and I don't try to hide it. I mean just look at my avatar, pass games mains and created threads. It's pretty obvious who's side I'm on. Although with that all said I never said anything about sheik being in top 3. I'm sure there's plenty of characters with mechanics not working like they are suppose to or have useless moves which should take priority over her. ^-^ Can't a man vent a little?

I'm also secretly biased with Palutena but don't tell anyone.

I know you didn't say Sheik was top 3, but myself and 95% of smashboards does, along with Rosalina and ZSS/Yoshi.

 

[lijero13ss]

Tink is my main....:'(

 

[KuroganeHammer]

People just like to apply feelings and opinions to data and it doesn't work, lol.

 

[PurpleWeeaboo]

Well one thing to remember is that this won't be the only balance update ever.

Not every change will be set in stone, especially in a game like this.

Very hyped though that smash is getting the treatment it deserves.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ParanoidDrone

What is that movement at 1:47, where yellow Rosalina slides back? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms&t=1m45s

Also at 1:56 pink Rosalina gets grabbed and -during- the grab Luma d-tilted. You can tell it's her Luma because she recalled it, fsmashed, and then when thrown Luma followed her offstage.

edit: Also seems to happen to pink Rosalina at 0:27.

The sliding motion at 1:47 is due to the purple Rosalina recalling Luma. This action creates a windbox in front of Rosalina because reasons.

I have no easy explanation for the dtilting Luma. The reported Luma nerf will definitely require investigation once the game releases to confirm/deny beyond doubt because that looks really suspicious given what we currently believe.

(Also, editing in an @ Username thing doesn't send a notification. The more you know.)

They are patching the Portable Public Preview version because we are out of beta on Thursday.

We're out of beta, we're releasing on time?

 

[Shaya]

Cleaned up thread by moving posts to impressions thread.
Hate all of you by baiting me with Marth chat.

DISCUSSION OF THIS PATCH AND DISCUSSION OF WHAT WE CAN DERIVE FROM THIS PATCH.
Not "mah wish list" @ Espy Rose

 

[Nabbitnator]

Air approaches get shield grabbed on a dime, so why air approaches would be his best bet...uh...

Also, his grab sucks. It can't punish OoS, it's slow, you can't combo off of it in any direction at all, and it doesn't grab while returning to him like Zamus's. To make up for the bad grab n' throws, he has a good dash attack. Makes sense to me. Besides, there are others with good stuff in different categories anyway, like KO move tilts, high damage/reliable combos, camping, pressure, reflects and counters, and so on. Yoshi just happens to have a great dash attack and good air movement coupled with relatively high weight.

If he was nerfed somehow, I wouldn't be horrendously surprised, tbh. However, given my experience up until now, one would need to be very careful as to what was nerfed and how. It'd be simpler to just not buff him further.


Palutena needs a n-air that actually makes sense and faster tilts, if anything. That'd fix her up faster than Light Weight + Super Speed.

Off-topic(s): Ya know what? I've been looking for someone to settle it in Smash with. You think you'd lag with someone in Texas?

i'd would love palutena's dthrow to have more hitstun or lower knock back so d-throw n-air becomes a true combo. F-tilt to be slightly faster. dtilt is fine but up tilt needs to be a little more consistant. Dsmash's recovery needs to be reduced or its start up reduced. Side smash to be a little faster with the same recovery.

 

[Espy Rose]

Cleaned up thread by moving posts to impressions thread.
Hate all of you by baiting me with Marth chat.

DISCUSSION OF THIS PATCH AND DISCUSSION OF WHAT WE CAN DERIVE FROM THIS PATCH.
Not "mah wish list" @ Espy Rose

Well that's just rude.

 

[Iron Kraken]

So what is the list of currently known balance changes for the new patch?

-Yoshi: No glitch
-Wario: No wectoring
-Mega Man: No rush canceling
-Link/Toon Link: No item canceling
-Peach: No item canceling and Fair now stales
-Greninja: Cannot autocancel side-B, more lag on up-smash
-Charizard: Flare Blitz no longer goes through projectiles
-RosaLuma: Luma respawn timer increased from 8.75 to 12.55 seconds (and Luma possibly lost the ability to attack while Rosalina is grabbed... although this seems in doubt now?)

Any other nerfs I'm missing? ...Any actual buffs found so far?

 

[The One Who Wrote This]

I hope that there will be some buffs to Ganondorf. I feel that he's a BIT on the slow side and that his recovery is not that great. Maybe improve his mobility just a tad?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

-Peach: No item canceling and Fair now stales

Is that just fair specifically or all her aerials in general, of which fair is the most important because it's a kill move?

(I'm assuming that "from float" is an assumed addition to that sentence BTW.)

 

[BBC7]

So what is the list of currently known balance changes for the new patch?

-Yoshi: No glitch
-Wario: No wectoring
-Mega Man: No rush canceling
-Link/Toon Link: No item canceling
-Peach: No item canceling and Fair now stales
-Greninja: Cannot autocancel side-B, more lag on up-smash
-Charizard: Flare Blitz no longer goes through projectiles
-RosaLuma: Luma respawn timer increased from 8.75 to 12.55 seconds (and Luma possibly lost the ability to attack while Rosalina is grabbed... although this seems in doubt now?)

Any other nerfs I'm missing? ...Any actual buffs found so far?

This isn't confirmed true at all, one person guessed that it was removed from the game and everyone took his word for it. Based off observations that Mega Man players found, Rush Cancelling isn't a bug or at least isn't exclusive to Mega Man's Up B. It seems as if every special move has pre-tumble hitstun cancelling which allows Mega Man to sometimes Rush Cancel out of a throw. Mega Man's Up B is just a notable example for actually being somewhat useful because it has invincibility, is only 1 frame and puts Mega Man in a position where you can't really continue your combo as well as you could've against other characters. A good example of what I mean when I say Rush Cancelling isn't exclusive to Mega Man is Pikachu's Down B. It doesn't do anything position-wise, but it still throws down a bolt of thunder. Not to mention that somebody who actually owns the game(YouTuber JoeYoshi) said that Rush Cancelling is still possible, although that's another case of taking someone's word. Some will still say that Rush Cancelling is a bug, but I believe that it is likely not. Unless special moves being able to cancel pre-tumble hitstun was unintended in general, which I don't feel it was.