Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Champion of Hyrule]

Keep in mind, the best selling Mario game of all time was Mario Kart, and the series consistently gets marketed as a system seller, often before platformer Mario games. I’d argue the general public knows Mario for racing just as much as platforming. There’s a lot of reasons Mario Kart is under represented in Smash but it does feel a little odd when it’s so core to what Mario is known for.

 

[UserKev]

I wasn't directly making an comparison. Mario Party has little to NO representation when we're discussing the Mario spinoff, which deserves representation.

 

[FazDude]

I agree that more Mario Party content would be great, but given how Mario Kart is treated as its own franchise in Ult's sound test, I think it could stand to have a bit more too. A friend on a Discord server mentioned making karts themselves items and having you drive them around like the Koopa car in SMM2; That'd be hype.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

Keep in mind, the best selling Mario game of all time was Mario Kart, and the series consistently gets marketed as a system seller, often before platformer Mario games. I’d argue the general public knows Mario for racing just as much as platforming. There’s a lot of reasons Mario Kart is under represented in Smash but it does feel a little odd when it’s so core to what Mario is known for.

Fun idea! I'd love to see a newcomer driving a kart around the stage using items from the item box and the kart transformations from 7 for their moveset. You could even make every costume a different character like they did with Bowser JR and the Koopalings.

Shy Guy, Koopa Troopa, Dry Bones, Para-Koopa, Birdo, Lakitu, Monty Mole, Hammer Bro and Chargin' Chuck could be a few. Like a line of Bowser enemies that probably wouldn't be playable otherwise. Maybe they could add some that haven't been playable in Mario Kart yet like Goomba.

I agree that more Mario Party content would be great, but given how Mario Kart is treated as its own franchise in Ult's sound test, I think it could stand to have a bit more too. A friend on a Discord server mentioned making karts themselves items and having you drive them around like the Koopa car in SMM2; That'd be hype.

Mushroom Mix-Up would be a perfect stage for the series. Either that or a board from one of the games as the spaces have different effects and mini-games like the WarioWare stage could appear.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Fun idea! I'd love to see a newcomer driving a kart around the stage using items from the item box and the kart transformations from 7 for their moveset. You could even make every costume a different character like they did with Bowser JR and the Koopalings.

Shy Guy, Koopa Troopa, Dry Bones, Para-Koopa, Birdo, Lakitu, Monty Mole, Hammer Bro and Chargin' Chuck could be a few. Like a line of Bowser enemies that probably wouldn't be playable otherwise. Maybe they could add some that haven't been playable in Mario Kart yet like Goomba.

I think the ideal way to implement a kart driver would be with Toad. All of those characters you named except maybe Monty or Shy Guy I can imagine a pretty distinct Smash moveset for (relegating Chargin' Chuck to a kart in particular would be a massive missed opportunity), meanwhile Toad has been a lingering elephant-in-the-room for a long time, lacking anything really distinct to work with that isn't just "Mario rework in a trenchcoat", even following his own game. Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach, or the babies all feel like decent candidates too, given they have logistical problems that I think a kart pretty effecitvely solves.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

I think the ideal way to implement a kart driver would be with Toad. All of those characters you named except maybe Monty or Shy Guy I can imagine a pretty distinct Smash moveset for (relegating Chargin' Chuck to a kart in particular would be a massive missed opportunity), meanwhile Toad has been a lingering elephant-in-the-room for a long time, lacking anything really distinct to work with that isn't just "Mario rework in a trenchcoat", even following his own game. Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach, or the babies all feel like decent candidates too, given they have logistical problems that I think a kart pretty effecitvely solves.

You're not wrong. Toad doesn't really have much of his own minus maybe a few elements from Captain Toad. But idk if that's enough to make a full moveset. The way I'd imagine Toad being implemented is to make him a powerup centric character where each attack is based on a different power-up from the series. But yeah that could also be put on to Mario, Luigi or even Peach at this point

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Weak moves should out-prioritize strong moves - moreso for casual balance than competitive, I think stale moves (a bad mechanic regardless) and simple frame length are on average just too subtle to tell new players "weak attacks are useful, use them". Moves built around a vulnerabile charge like Falcon Punch could maybe get super armor on hit or special priority to compensate.

 

[fogbadge]

Weak moves should out-prioritize strong moves - moreso for casual balance than competitive, I think stale moves (a bad mechanic regardless) and simple frame length are on average just too subtle to tell new players "light attacks are useful, use them". Moves built around a vulnerabile charge like Falcon Punch could maybe get super armor on hit to compensate.

casual balance? wario we play with items on, they equalise everything

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

One of the worst things about Smash, dating back to even Melee, I'd argue is the likely-intentional element of "validation" that comes with a character getting in. Even putting aside the discourse it causes and how it effects roster decisions (and even speculation - I wonder how many Bubsy fans have dropped out of Smash support because they think Bubsy doesn't "deserve" the "slot"), I think people shouldn't seek validation for what they enjoy on a case-by-case basis, they should train themselves to inherently view their and others' tastes as valid and not need to defend their street cred, while balancing that out with a healthy criticism of what they enjoy or don't. This is something I struggle with myself and don't think I've properly evolved into practicing (I still get a bit FOF when I see people diss NASB1, especially in support of NASB2 or SSBU, for example) but it's clearly dumb to think that way. It's all dumb, inconsequential entertainment, made for teens or kids 6 times out of 10, there's no objective seperation between any potential Smash pick (sans the occasional weird Monika-style outlier that goes too far out of good taste) except personal opinion, and we need to be more aware and embracing of that fact, and openly admit to thinking entirely on subjectives, both in positive and negative regards, (and stop making up fake objectives about Geno and Banjo being more iconic than Sephiroth and Waluigi or whatever) as do the devs themselves

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This could be debatable, but I do kind of feel that Brawl is the worst installment to the Smash Bros. series for the following reasons...

• The CPU constantly chases after human players, even when it's more favorable to go after the other CPU players.
• The CPU is superhuman, even on level 1. I can't tell you how annoying it is to get shield grabbed during the middle of an attempted jab combo.
• The stale move mechanics are way too punishing. This is especially the case for the fighters whom have very limited KO move options.
• The roster balance is abysmally bad. Meta Knight is considered too good to the point that he got banned from competitive play, while Ganondorf makes even Melee Bowser look good.
• The Pokemon Trainer's stamina mechanic forces you to have to adapt to three different characters, which may not be favorable to some players. Thank goodness that Ultimate got rid of that mechanic completely.
• Chain grabbing hell. After Brawl, thrown fighters have a period where they can't get grabbed for over a second.
• Intense difficulty Boss Battles is a massive lesson in pain. When you look at Galleom, he can potentially wipe you out, even at 0% damage, which is not the case in Ultimate, where you can survive past 100% damage, even on the higher intensity levels.

Long story short, Brawl was a messy ride.

 

[Perkilator]

I think a lot of out-there additions to Smash over the years have opened me up to seeking out more potential out-ther additions to co-exist along with the more obvious choices for newcomers.

 

[ninjahmos]

I'm sure it's no secret that a lot of us would love to see Shadow get into Smash. In fact, I'd love to see Shadow in Smash just as much as anybody. But…I'd also love to see Tails and Knuckles in Smash as well.

Not sure that counts as an unpopular opinion though…

 

[Oddball]

I'm sure it's no secret that a lot of us would love to see Shadow get into Smash. In fact, I'd love to see Shadow in Smash just as much as anybody. But…I'd also love to see Tails and Knuckles in Smash as well.

Not sure that counts as an unpopular opinion though…

I really think Tails deserves it more than Shadow.

 

[fogbadge]

I really think Tails deserves it more than Shadow.

he does

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Since Tails is being bought up:

Tails would work just fine as a Sonic semi-clone, at least in terms of characterisation ("Sonic but floaty" may be a bit more questionable function-wise). Most of Tails' unique abilities are either entirely defensive or one-offs from games like Sonic Battle and Sonic only uses his quills in one move, and hell, I'd argue most Tails supporters are classic-era fans anyway who would just percieve Tails' powers as "Sonic but he can fly and has a plane". I think Tails' personality as the "plucky rookie" of sorts would best be communicated through non attack animations anyway - his walking and jump animations in Tails' Adventure come to mind as having a bit of a "plucky young hero" vibe (though he'd obviously have to have the iconic flying-run) - also from that game, you can give him Game & Watch bomb as a replacement for spring. (maybe to force foes into the air?)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think they should go for Knuckles as a second Sonic character. I think he has merit of inclusion above Shadow and Tails by being more of a brawler type, thus more fit for a typical fighting inclusion. I dunno. He fits both the rivalry part and secondary Sonic character part that Shadow and Tails have.

 

[AlRex]

I like Eggman the most for a second Sonic character, for a lot of his own various merits, and the wealth of material and ways they could tackle him, but also because he’s the least Sonic-like of the possible choices.

 

[Louie G.]

I've warmed on him a bit more, but I just don't really love Shadow being the second choice. Tails, Knuckles and Eggman work for me. It feels more Smash-like to favor series legacy and frankly those three have more consistent roles in the series as well. Whereas Shadow doesn't always appear, but when he does he demands attention. He's tremendously popular. I get it.

But yeah, I dunno. He strikes me as a bit of a weird outlier in how Smash tends to handle its series progression, which isn't inherently a bad thing but just doesn't feel quite right to me. While most series will favor their sidekick (Tails) or antagonist (Eggman), both of which are very popular characters in their own right who offer their own unique material to work with, Shadow may very well transcend them and just coast by on his immense popularity and current hotness. But I personally think people overestimate him a tad, over the others who offer something equally meaningful - perhaps moreso, seeing how Shadow is the most functionally similar to Sonic himself. But I do personally see value in Sonic getting a Luigi / Falco type derivative (so long as he's rebalanced and adjusted a little bit because... eugh, he's kind of a mess right now).

There's no wrong answers here, but yeah. I dunno. If it were up to me Shadow would be fourth or fifth in line.

 

[BritishGuy54]

My priority for Sonic characters seems to be:

Shadow > Eggman > Tails > Knuckles >>> Everyone else

In all honesty, a lot of Sonic characters haven’t exactly had enough time in the sun recently, mostly due to everything past ‘06 prioritising Sonic, another Sonic, or gimmicky characters.

The problem with prioritising legacy is that as time moves on… everything would have legacy. Sonic Adventure 2 is coming up to 25 years old now, and I think it’ll be Shadow who makes it in, as a unique-ish fighter.

 

[SharkLord]

I've come to realize that despite appearing frequently, Tails and Knuckles have started falling to the wayside over time. Tails was largely reduced to mission control ever since Unleashed, and oftentimes Knuckles didn't even appear in that timespan. They were both playable in the Boom games, Mania, and Final Horizons, but both times they were only pushed as part of an ensemble cast; It was never "Hey look, Tails/Knuckles specifically has a campaign now." Furthermore, it was still clearly Sonic as the main character, with Mania only having Tails and Knuckles as side campaigns, and Boom and Frontiers swapping between characters but ultimately focusing on Sonic the most. Even when they've been given more important roles, they've only ever been pitched as secondary figures to Sonic.

I suppose Tails was also playable in Sonic 4 Episode 2, but that was also just as Sonic's sidekick. Also it's Sonic 4 Episode 2 I don't know how many people remember that game

Similarily, Eggman's consistently taken center stage as a villain up until Frontiers, but he's never been granted a playable appearance in the mainline titles. Granted, that would require a radical change to the gameplay, but it's still worth considering that he lacks playable status.

In that same time, Shadow appeared less overall, but was still playable twice - In Sonic Forces, and then in Shadow Generations. Technically that's three playable roles less than Tails and Knuckles, but three of those were for Boom; For mainline games, that's about the same amount. Furthermore, both times Shadow was hyped up as having his own solo campaign, with Forces having a short DLC campaign and Gens being an entire game dedicated to Shadow. He's actually framed as another main character compared to Sonic, not just part of the gang.

With the movies, Tails and Knuckles showed up before Shadow, and Robotnik was there since the beginning, so they can say that at least. However, Shadow still got more fanfare overall, what with the Fearless Year of Shadow and everything. Hell, Sega themselves admitted the only reason SxSG exists is because Shadow was showing up in the movies, and they wanted to make a tie-in to that - And that says a lot to me.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

With Tails and Knuckles the tricky element is that 3D Sonic has still not quite figured out a consistent playstyle for either and the ever-changing role for both seems to reflect that. Frontiers' efforts with both via the DLC was a decent start, but who knows whether or not either gameplay effort will be utilized again. By contrast Shadow playing close enough to Sonic with some small differences means they can easily apply already tested gameplay mechanics to him and build on them, as they did with SxS Generations.

Honestly its Classic Sonic that really highlights Tails/Knuckles these days (and now Amy). Big spotlight in Mania, advertising them being playable in Sonic 1 (& CD) for Origins, and presented as entirely expected characters for Superstars. Sonic but a with a jump power variation is just much easier to do in 2D and the Classic subline has become entirely based around the big four (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy) and likely will continue going forward.

It makes for an interesting contrast to Shadow as Classic is the one area in the Sonic franchise Shadow will not venture into.

 

[SharkLord]

I've come to realize that despite appearing frequently, Tails and Knuckles have started falling to the wayside over time. Tails was largely reduced to mission control ever since Unleashed, and oftentimes Knuckles didn't even appear in that timespan. They were both playable in the Boom games, Mania, and Final Horizons, but both times they were only pushed as part of an ensemble cast; It was never "Hey look, Tails/Knuckles specifically has a campaign now." Furthermore, it was still clearly Sonic as the main character, with Mania only having Tails and Knuckles as side campaigns, and Boom and Frontiers swapping between characters but ultimately focusing on Sonic the most. Even when they've been given more important roles, they've only ever been pitched as secondary figures to Sonic.

I suppose Tails was also playable in Sonic 4 Episode 2, but that was also just as Sonic's sidekick. Also it's Sonic 4 Episode 2 I don't know how many people remember that game

Similarily, Eggman's consistently taken center stage as a villain up until Frontiers, but he's never been granted a playable appearance in the mainline titles. Granted, that would require a radical change to the gameplay, but it's still worth considering that he lacks playable status.

In that same time, Shadow appeared less overall, but was still playable twice - In Sonic Forces, and then in Shadow Generations. Technically that's three playable roles less than Tails and Knuckles, but three of those were for Boom; For mainline games, that's about the same amount. Furthermore, both times Shadow was hyped up as having his own solo campaign, with Forces having a short DLC campaign and Gens being an entire game dedicated to Shadow. He's actually framed as another main character compared to Sonic, not just part of the gang.

With the movies, Tails and Knuckles showed up before Shadow, and Robotnik was there since the beginning, so they can say that at least. However, Shadow still got more fanfare overall, what with the Fearless Year of Shadow and everything. Hell, Sega themselves admitted the only reason SxSG exists is because Shadow was showing up in the movies, and they wanted to make a tie-in to that - And that says a lot to me.

Amendment: Tails and Knuckles were both playable in Superstars. It was the same as their other appearances - Part of an ensemble cast, not given distinct main character status - But they were still there and still playable.

For what it's worth, the success of Frontiers and the movies means Sonic's in a new era, for all intents and purposes. But that era's just starting, so the general trends of the series going forward have yet to be defined. Plus, given usual Smash release cycles, there probably won't be much time to take that into account for Smash 6, at least not for launch.

I mention this because I believe Superstars was in development before Frontiers released which would explain its cheapness so it probably still fit into some "modern era" trends. This means the only things we have from the new "Frontiers era" are Frontiers and Shadow Generations, plus arguably the movies, so it's a bit tricky to tell which characters are more prominent just based on that alone.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You know I don't know if echo or semi-clone would be ideal description, but I think I'd be fine with another character that played similar to Hero. There's probably enough variation from the long list of Dragon Quest abilities to make them distinct and you could easily put other previous DQ protagonists as the four skins of the fighter. Between them and Hero you'd really have a pair of fighters that really would be paying tribute to so much of the series' history.

 

[Will]

I don’t like footstool jumps.

It’s not hard to execute once you practice doing it for a few minutes. It gimps, sometimes humiliates, characters with weaker recoveries when used as an edgeguard. If they use it while you’re above ground, it can enable some nasty reset combos if you miss the tech or they read how you tech. God forbid if somebody remembers you can do it up to six times while airborne.

I’m just not a fan and wish one day it just happens to go away with no explanation.

 

[LimeTH]

but he's never been granted a playable appearance in the mainline titles.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Smash is missing out on characters from the DS. We only have Lucario, and while Lucario is one of the biggest icons on the roster, it's sad he's all alone.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think Smash is missing out on characters from the DS. We only have Lucario, and while Lucario is one of the biggest icons on the roster, it's sad he's all alone.

Aside from Ashley and Sylux there really aren't a lot of realistic options.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Aside from Ashley and Sylux there really aren't a lot of realistic options.

The DS isn't the Wii U. There are a lot of options, although I will agree that Ashley is probably the only one with a decent shot.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think Smash is missing out on characters from the DS. We only have Lucario, and while Lucario is one of the biggest icons on the roster, it's sad he's all alone.

I don't think "console representation" is anything Smash has ever thought about except in the moment (Smash 3DS' stage list is the obvious example) or as an unintended consequence of listening to fan demand (Banjo), but I've always felt this way about the Game Boy and - to a lesser extent - Advance. (I don't think the Game Boy Color has anything to work with whatsoever though, unless they bring back the TOP SECRET label)

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I think Smash is missing out on characters from the DS. We only have Lucario, and while Lucario is one of the biggest icons on the roster, it's sad he's all alone.

I feel it’s because lot of the first party titles on DS weren’t as big on introducing new characters and the new franchises from that system are causal focused such as Nintendogs and Brain Age.

Sylux or Ashley are probably the most likely from that system. The former is probably DLC if Smash 6 is already planned while the latter could potentially still be an assist trophy.

Ace Attorney actually started on the GBA despite being more associated with the DS.

I don't think the Game Boy Color has anything to work with whatsoever though, unless they bring back the TOP SECRET label

I guess Pichu counts since Gen 2 was on GBC.

 

[RileyXY1]

I guess Pichu counts since Gen 2 was on GBC.

Although the original Gold and Silver could be played on the OG Game Boy, while Crystal could not.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I dunno, calling Gen 1/2 Pokemon "Game Boy reps" feels more to me like calling Wario or Kirby a Game Boy rep, or calling Mario and Donkey Kong arcade reps... it's technically true, but those characters have outlived those platforms in a pretty significant way and nobody really associates them with that platform. Pokemon in particular's prominence are ultimately player-driven, you can choose not to use a gen 1 starter on the GB, and you can choose to use a gen 1 starter on the DS, especially in a post-online trading world. I'd say that's also true of Ashley, to me a DS rep would more be in the lane of Dr. Kawashima, Electroplanktons, Dr. Lobe, Ted & Archie, Elite Beat Agents, e.t.c. - stuff that, when you think of, you think "Yeah, that was a DS thing". Starfy and Rhythm Heaven come to mind too despite not starting on the DS. I dunno, it's weird and abstract, based more on emotional response than anything logical, but so is the idea and standards of faithful and comprehensive representation in Smash as a whole.

 

[SharkLord]

View attachment 398417

Crap, that's right. I meant that in the context of the "modern" era - Unleashed up to now - He hasn't been playable, but you're right. He has been playable in a mainline game, just not a recent one.

...Huh, I guess SA2 is turning 25 next year

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

...Huh, I guess SA2 is turning 25 next year

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