Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[PlasmaDam]

I think a bit of the Ult newcomers and one or two 3DS/Wii U newcomers need reworks, but you could probably get a statisfactory rework with just the "Olimar only has 3 Pikmin now" approach.

I'm curious which ult newcomers do you need reworks I find smash 4 and onwards newcomers to be a bit more interesting kit wise

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm curious which ult newcomers do you need reworks I find smash 4 and onwards newcomers to be a bit more interesting kit wise

Min Min is the big one, that character is unsalvagable and needs a complete rework, but some others that need the kind of major tweaks you'd only get between releases and not in updates I'd say are

• Hero
• Mega Man
• Steve
• Belmonts

I didn't ever play as or against Kazuya but he also seems like a really obvious example from a glance and what I've heard. Little Mac maybe too.

 

[PlasmaDam]

Min Min is the big one, that character is unsalvagable and needs a complete rework, but some others that need the kind of major tweaks you'd only get between releases and not in updates I'd say are

• Hero
• Mega Man
• Steve
• Belmonts

I didn't ever play as or against Kazuya but he also seems like a really obvious example from a glance and what I've heard. Little Mac maybe too.

I think Hero Kit is really fun and interesting I love how he pulls up an actual menu and has a ton of different spells.My main issue is that There aren't any symbols next to them so if your playing somewhere with a different language it becomes a mess.
Megaman kit is nice as well wish His Special moves weren't so megaman 2 focused though.
I think Steve kit is fine but some numbers Def need to be tweaked and they should also make it so that if you destroy his crafting table it takes longer to come back or he can't summon it to him.
And belmonts just need a slight speed increase and up b to be better

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can understand what the developers were going for when they were making Little Mac's moveset, but to make his air game and recovery be abysmally bad will always feel controversial. When you look at Jigglypuff, despite being designed to focus on aerial battles, it's more than capable of making KOs with its ground attacks. But for Little Mac, his aerial attacks struggle to KO anyone until they're flirting with sudden death damage levels.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I can understand what the developers were going for when they were making Little Mac's moveset, but to make his air game and recovery be abysmally bad will always feel controversial. When you look at Jigglypuff, despite being designed to focus on aerial battles, it's more than capable of making KOs with its ground attacks. But for Little Mac, his aerial attacks struggle to KO anyone until they're flirting with sudden death damage levels.

Long been my biggest deterrent from trying out Mac, and even moreso me feeling Sakurai mainly built the take on him in SSB4 solely from his Brawl Assist Trophy-counterpart, right down to being a "gruff boxer. Which reminds me, he's a bit too grump in Smash (why no joyful celebration like in both NES and Wii upon victory?)

At least Hewdraw Remix allowed him bit more interesting leniency in a way you talked about - this time aerials allowing better setups to grounded attacks and then some.


On that end about Punchout, I've long been baffled by how inexplicably generic the presentation of the series has been, even moreso in Ultimate than in SSB4 - which is mainly due none of the other boxers from the series being featured anywhere (not even as an Assist Trophy?), complementing sadly with how Mac's level can be also be turned to a more generic "Smash Bros-verse" boxing ring.

Combined with my above feelings on Mac, it makes the current representation of Punchout feel incredibly lacking and disconnected from the known main draws of the series - arguably the boxers themselves you take on as the little guy and just the oozing personality from EVERYONE involved in the series. Smash not bringing much of this has made me not really be invested on the series there as much as I am outside of it. Kinda of a shame as I remember championing for Mac some bit on the side during SSB4's speculation era.

Also Doc Louis not getting any pep talk sessions on fighters... what a missed opportunity. (It wouldn't have been that hard, especially if it's just one guy talking briefly!)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Long been my biggest deterrent from trying out Mac, and even moreso me feeling Sakurai mainly built the take on him in SSB4 solely from his Brawl Assist Trophy-counterpart, right down to being a "gruff boxer. Which reminds me, he's a bit too grump in Smash (why no joyful celebration like in both NES and Wii upon victory?)

At least Hewdraw Remix allowed him bit more interesting leniency in a way you talked about - this time aerials allowing better setups to grounded attacks and then some.


On that end about Punchout, I've long been baffled by how inexplicably generic the presentation of the series has been, even moreso in Ultimate than in SSB4 - which is mainly due none of the other boxers from the series being featured anywhere (not even as an Assist Trophy?), complementing sadly with how Mac's level can be also be turned to a more generic "Smash Bros-verse" boxing ring.

Combined with my above feelings on Mac, it makes the current representation of Punchout feel incredibly lacking and disconnected from the known main draws of the series - arguably the boxers themselves you take on as the little guy and just the oozing personality from EVERYONE involved in the series. Smash not bringing much of this has made me not really be invested on the series there as much as I am outside of it. Kinda of a shame as I remember championing for Mac some bit on the side during SSB4's speculation era.

Also Doc Louis not getting any pep talk sessions on fighters... what a missed opportunity. (It wouldn't have been that hard, especially if it's just one guy talking briefly!)

I suppose one reason for the lack of Punch-Out!! representation outside of Spirits in Ultimate has to do with the negative stereotypes that are affiliated with the boxers in question. That alone can likely explain why the Wii version of Punch-Out!! has yet to get a Nintendo Switch port.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I suppose one reason for the lack of Punch-Out!! representation outside of Spirits in Ultimate has to do with the negative stereotypes that are affiliated with the boxers in question. That alone can likely explain why the Wii version of Punch-Out!! has yet to get a Nintendo Switch port.

I'd hate that to be the case as both Nintendo and Retro Studios had ton of fun with stereotypes based on their countries (Japan and Canada respectively) - and even then, went all the way to get native speakers to voice their lines in Wii and make their portrayals more charming and flattering than anything else... but you'd be possibly right.

Though now I can't help having a hunch that with the amount of content brought to Smash over the years since SSB4, there's bound to be something politically incorrect having slipped in anyway.

I guess to me the very idea of boxers in Punchout Wii specifically still eliciting this reaction to be viewed as politically incorrect in spite of all the work done to lessen so feels... worrisome? Especially in the context of the game which pretty removed from reality in both the presentation and the boxing itsel. Even then, I feel like with cases of Street Fighter existing that have come to evolve country-based characters over the years, would show Nintendo how to go about continuing Punchout instead canning the series completely to unforeseaable future due these concerns...

 

[Louie G.]

I suppose one reason for the lack of Punch-Out!! representation outside of Spirits in Ultimate has to do with the negative stereotypes that are affiliated with the boxers in question. That alone can likely explain why the Wii version of Punch-Out!! has yet to get a Nintendo Switch port.

Doubt it, those stereotypes exist in the NES version and to be honest, even more egregiously in Super Punch Out and those games have no problems being brought over in Virtual Console and NSO. Punch-Out Wii was released on Wii U Virtual Console as well. Evidently, porting Wii games over to Switch is a significant enough effort to warrant full-priced releases and the reason Punch-Out hasn't happened is likely the same reason why a dozen other games haven't.

As for additional Punch-Out representation, those characters existing as spirits at all kind of conflicts with the point about negative stereotypes. Several of them were trophies in Smash 4 as well. I can't tell you why there isn't a Punch-Out Assist Trophy, but surely even among the apparently controversial cast of boxers there are enough that do not hinge on stereotypes that would be perfectly fine AT additions. Bald Bull, Super Macho Man, Mr. Sandman, Disco Kid... all of those are pretty light on any pointed stereotyping.

Nintendo is not above playing to stereotypes in the first place. Their mascot is an Italian caricature, Odyssey had characters in big sombreros playing mariachi, the ARMS character we got in Smash is a Chinese girl with ramen noodle arms. And past those goofier examples Zelda has a fairly consistent, eyebrow-raising portrayal of middle eastern culture. None of these are that much better than what Punch-Out is putting down, not enough to intentionally gate off an appearance by Glass Joe, Don Flamenco or Aran Ryan.

Frankly I've almost never seen people complain about Punch-Out's boxers in general, it seems like more of a paranoia based in the progressively evolving (and just to make my stance clear, positive) social and cultural awareness. I'm open to having the conversation with anyone who does have a problem with it, but Punch-Out Wii makes it evident to me that a lot of care was put into portraying these characters as respectfully as possible. I'd go as far to say that up until Splatoon, Punch-Out had the most positive and inclusive portrayals of black characters in Nintendo's catalog, period.

And people like to paint it as "the racist Nintendo game". It's just really tiring to see people continually misunderstand the series in this way, and it's never even anyone actually offended by it doing so. Just people who like to speculate on how offended people are.

 

[Laniv]

Incidentally, wasn't there a little commotion a couple weeks back about someone interviewing a Punch-Out!! developer and they said there probably wasn't going to be another game because of the stereotypes? And then that rumor was later debunked, and the real reason was that there wasn't a good gameplay hook?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Speaking of Punch Out, you know how quite a few people say "Give Ganondorf a new moveset and give the old one to Black Shadow?" I'd genuinely like that idea for Little Mac and giving the current moveset to Glass Joe, maybe even give him the headgear from Wii, it's funny cause of course he'd be terrible but the idea that he just tries so hard that his hits can actually pack a punch is pretty fun to me and feels like a perfect win win

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Shulk's stances should be considered individual under the EIH numbering. Only because it'd be funny.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

The notion that you should "only play as characters you like" is really dumb. I don't play Marth because I like the character, but I also don't play Marth because he's high-tier in Melee, I play Marth because well... sword functions are fun. That's it. I will pick up a character I like just for liking them every now and then, but I consider that more a novelty.

Plus, I think - like a lot of common Smash takes - it's a bit hypocritical when you look the common consensus of roster speculation. most-wanted character discussion is WAY more based on what is meta/optimised and gatekeepy to "well, I like that character, that's it" mentality than even competitive Melee lmao.

 

[fogbadge]

The notion that you should "only play as characters you like" is really dumb. I don't play Marth because I like the character, but I also don't play Marth because he's high-tier in Melee, I play Marth because well... sword functions are fun. That's it. I will pick up a character I like just for liking them every now and then, but I consider that more a novelty.

Playing a character cause you find them fun is playing as a character you like

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Playing a character cause you find them fun is playing as a character you like

In that case, why is playing a high-tier for the sake of being a high-tier bad if you like playing as high-tiers?

 

[fogbadge]

In that case, why is playing a high-tier for the sake of being a high-tier bad if you like playing as high-tiers?

not course not

 

[UserKev]

I only play characters that feel good to play. I like smooth and floaty. Ness, Bowser, Peach, Toon Link, K. Rool. I know special attachments might play a key role.

I absolute loathe complex and janky characters and consider this function a disease to Smash. I like simple and cozy. Mario isn't fun to play anymore. C Falcon isn't fun to play anymore. Fox isn't fun to play anymore. I want Smash to do a call back to its bumpy approach like in the 99 commercial.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

If a non-video game character were added to Smash, Doraemon is a SERIOUSLY underrated candidate. I would probably consider him the most likely character in such a scenario. Nintendo’s partnership with CoroCoro Comic (the magazine that was basically created just for Doraemon at first) is one of the longest in video game history since they published their manga for about 35 years now. It’s a big part of Nintendo’s history people don’t really know about in America.

I can understand the argument he might not be popular in the west (and I do think the fan demand for Goku makes him pretty likely, especially because Dragon Ball games have a long history with Nintendo) but Doraemon is still massively recognizable and his games get localized now which makes me feel it wouldn’t be an issue.

 

[RodNutTakin]

If a non-video game character were added to Smash, Doraemon is a SERIOUSLY underrated candidate. I would probably consider him the most likely character in such a scenario. Nintendo’s partnership with CoroCoro Comic (the magazine that was basically created just for Doraemon at first) is one of the longest in video game history since they published their manga for about 35 years now. It’s a big part of Nintendo’s history people don’t really know about in America.

I can understand the argument he might not be popular in the west (and I do think the fan demand for Goku makes him pretty likely, especially because Dragon Ball games have a long history with Nintendo) but Doraemon is still massively recognizable and his games get localized now which makes me feel it wouldn’t be an issue.

are you bringing this up because he had a couple of votes on the old Japanese pre-Melee character poll lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

My take;
If it weren't for the limitation on non-video game content, the Godzilla IP would absolutely have something by now, even if just a Mii Costume for Brawler in a Godzilla suit and the iconic theme for "Other" stages.

It'd likely be one of the easiest licenses for Nintendo to negotiate for compared to the global licensing nightmare of manga/anime series and Toho puts Godzilla in goddamn everything these days so they'd probably leap at the opportunity.