Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[LimeTH]

In terms of how much love and representation a third party series has gotten, Sonic has been so ridiculously blatantly shafted in comparison to all the others that it's honestly kind of pathetic. You can't even bring up Final Fantasy as a counterpoint anymore because that got a second character and everything that is supposed to come with it, AND Cloud had a lot more love put into his moveset from the start anyway. Across three games, Sonic has a half assed moveset where every attack is a variation on each other, had all the expressiveness and charm sucked out of his character model, two stages that have the exact same theme and are basically interchangeable, a bizarre selection of songs with only one remix, and while it has two assist trophies, the Knuckles one is wildly inaccurate to Knuckles' actual abilities (Knuckles doesn't homing attack).
Like it's insane to see all these third parties either getting a king's ransom or retroactively getting a king's ransom, and then Sonic just kinda gets thrown some scraps now and then.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I will say, the fact that Microsoft did literally nothing to capitalize on Banjo's reception post-Smash DOES kinda say something about how inclusions aren't guaranteed to give something in return. Heck, even the NSO ports feel more like a Nintendo thing than a Microsoft thing given all the Rare releases have been decently hyped up in stuff like Directs. That being said, though, I gotta agree with Gwen on this one: the idea of their being some "ulterior motive" (while definitely true in some cases) seems more of a vocal minority sort of thing. A lot of people wanted Banjo in Smash because... they wanted Banjo in Smash. Sometimes it really is that simple.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

And then you have King K. Rool, whom ended up falling back into retirement again after Ultimate was all set and done.

 

[LimeTH]

And then you have King K. Rool, whom ended up falling back into retirement again after Ultimate was all set and done.

That's not exactly fair to say, there hasn't been a new DK game since Ultimate.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

the Knuckles one is wildly inaccurate to Knuckles' actual abilities (Knuckles doesn't homing attack).

How the hell is this a bad thing? That's awesome.

 

[TheZizz]

You can't fault Nintendo for failing to innovate after the reception that Super Paper Mario got. I think they were really proud of that one.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

(Knuckles doesn't homing attack)

To be fair he does have it sometimes but it's always been in a quirky way, Heroes has him do it when playing in Speed Formation and most of the ally characters in Shadow the Hedgehog have a homing attack, but you need a second player to use them. It's absolutely not something associated with him so this is just me being pendantic as I've been addicted to the blue rat for 20 years. I get the annoyance with Sonic's handling though, one of my biggest issues with him is the lack of recorded voice lines with Roger Craig Smith.

Actually, that might be one of my biggest issues with Smash, the lack of willingness to get new recordings. Not just for Bowser and Donkey Kong like what people usually cite as an issue or NoA being weird about voice actors which screws up the Kid Icarus cast, but also the victory themes, a lot of these have been the same since Brawl and while I'm not the kind of person to demand new jumping animation in Spiderman 2 ps5 or anything as I am all for reusing assets, it does feel very weird how for Sonic, he still has the 06 victory theme and got a frankensteined assortment of RCS clips and a reused Jason Griffith clip because RCS never recorded a clip of Sonic snoring. It's also kinda weird as I don't believe Griffith is in the credits but I feel he should be if they're still using his clips

 

[MBRedboy31]

How the hell is this a bad thing? That's awesome.

Oddly, Knuckles homing attacking became more common after Ultimate; he can Homing Attack in both of his 3D platformer playable appearances since then (Sonic Frontiers: Final Horizon and Sonic Dream Team.)

He can also homing attack in mobile games like Sonic Dash and Sonic Rumble, but I’m skipping those since all of the characters in them are basically just cosmetic.

I am sorta curious about what Sakurai thinks about Sonic as a franchise, though.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

That's not exactly fair to say, there hasn't been a new DK game since Ultimate.

I don’t even think there is a completely original game on Switch since the DKC games were remasters while Mario VS DK was a remake.

I think it’s Nintendo only major franchise that didn’t have a new game outside of the dormant ones such as F-Zero and Star Fox.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don’t even think there is a completely original game on Switch since the DKC games were remasters while Mario VS DK was a remake.

I think it’s Nintendo only major franchise that didn’t have a new game outside of the dormant ones such as F-Zero and Star Fox.

Even F-Zero got a game on Switch.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah people need to stop saying F-Zero's been neglected or hasn't gotten a new game in many years or whatever, F-Zero 99 exists and people need to stop discounting it just because it's not the AAA F-Zero GX sequel of their dreams or whatever the hell.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

If nothing else, Nintendo maintaining an online service for a F-Zero game suggests they view it was a worthwhile title and that's got to count for something.

It's certainly more than DKC or even Star Fox whose entire Switch presence is resting on being guest characters in a Toys to Life Ubisoft game.

 

[fogbadge]

the thing that surprised me about F-Zero 99 is that I didn't realise there had been 98 F-Zero games

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's not exactly fair to say, there hasn't been a new DK game since Ultimate.

Maybe not, but considering that Ultimate was released over a decade after Mario Super Sluggers, it pretty much paints a bleak picture in that Nintendo has very little interests in bringing back King K. Rool.

 

[Louie G.]

Across three games, Sonic had all the expressiveness and charm sucked out of his character model, two stages that have the exact same theme and are basically interchangeable, a bizarre selection of songs with only one remix

I've been screaming this from the rooftops for a bit now, but BLAME SEGA FOR THIS!!!

Context clues make it quite obvious why Smash 4 Sonic ended up the way he did. The brand was not interested in Sonic being Sonic, they sucked the charm and personality out of the character in a similar way to Smash. It is extremely rare, unprecedented for anyone aside from Sonic actually, for Sakurai to go back and make an adjustment like this between games, one that removes much of what makes that character themselves. That to me is a very clear response to notes he got from Sega. It makes infinitely more sense than assuming he just has it out for the guy.

The stages make sense too. Most third parties are given one stage, Sonic got two. One of them was from Lost World - notably, an exclusive deal made between Nintendo and Sega and the most prominent new title at the time. Chances are Sakurai was given a little wink and nudge from one side or the other to give this game representation. And music... well, it's hard to really say exactly what's going on, but let's say it's probably not a coincidence that the one Sonic remix in the game was made by Sega Sound Team and has seen further use in other Sonic titles. It's a weird situation clearly but the implication here is Sega doesn't play ball with remixes unless they can themselves produce and own them.

But that's the thing right, third party character design needs to answer to a higher power. Every single decision made toward Sonic in Smash was given the greenlight, or encouraged by Sega. If they want Sakurai to "fix" Sonic, it's kind of on them to let him know - and frankly, I think those notes will come in now that the brand has better come to terms with its identity and letting Sonic be 'alive' again. And I hope the surge in Sonic crossovers across the board has given Sega more confidence in giving other studios the freedom to say, remix their music and so forth. The future is looking a bit brighter, but we'll see how it goes.

On surface level, it makes sense why everyone just assumes Smash is trying to undermine Sonic for some incomprehensible reason. But I really implore everyone to think critically about it, pay attention to where Sonic was at from Smash 4 -> Ultimate, and recognize that his Smash portrayal is just a reflection of the difficult place that his series had been in for the better part of that decade.

 

[UserKev]

I dislike the idea of the ballot and hope we don't see it again. It's good that we gotten K Rool from it but it's a curse. And I don't like the process of it. Idk. I dislike it for some reason.

 

[LimeTH]

Maybe not, but considering that Ultimate was released over a decade after Mario Super Sluggers, it pretty much paints a bleak picture in that Nintendo has very little interests in bringing back King K. Rool.

From what I've heard around here, K Rool's popularity actually sent some shockwaves across Nintendo's offices, as they didn't realize he was THAT popular. And even then, there were attempts from various parties to bring him back that apparently didn't go through for one reason or another. They don't HATE K Rool, he just wasn't considered a priority until now.

I'm sure at some point he WILL make a comeback, it's just been a matter of difficulty getting anything DK related off the ground.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I've been screaming this from the rooftops for a bit now, but BLAME SEGA FOR THIS!!!

Context clues make it quite obvious why Smash 4 Sonic ended up the way he did. The brand was not interested in Sonic being Sonic, they sucked the charm and personality out of the character in a similar way to Smash. It is extremely rare, unprecedented for anyone aside from Sonic actually, for Sakurai to go back and make an adjustment like this between games, one that removes much of what makes that character themselves. That to me is a very clear response to notes he got from Sega. It makes infinitely more sense than assuming he just has it out for the guy.

The stages make sense too. Most third parties are given one stage, Sonic got two. One of them was from Lost World - notably, an exclusive deal made between Nintendo and Sega and the most prominent new title at the time. Chances are Sakurai was given a little wink and nudge from one side or the other to give this game representation. And music... well, it's hard to really say exactly what's going on, but let's say it's probably not a coincidence that the one Sonic remix in the game was made by Sega Sound Team and has seen further use in other Sonic titles. It's a weird situation clearly but the implication here is Sega doesn't play ball with remixes unless they can themselves produce and own them.

But that's the thing right, third party character design needs to answer to a higher power. Every single decision made toward Sonic in Smash was given the greenlight, or encouraged by Sega. If they want Sakurai to "fix" Sonic, it's kind of on them to let him know - and frankly, I think those notes will come in now that the brand has better come to terms with its identity and letting Sonic be 'alive' again. And I hope the surge in Sonic crossovers across the board has given Sega more confidence in giving other studios the freedom to say, remix their music and so forth. The future is looking a bit brighter, but we'll see how it goes.

On surface level, it makes sense why everyone just assumes Smash is trying to undermine Sonic for some incomprehensible reason. But I really implore everyone to think critically about it, pay attention to where Sonic was at from Smash 4 -> Ultimate, and recognize that his Smash portrayal is just a reflection of the difficult place that his series had been in for the better part of that decade.

I do wonder what Sonic in Smash 4 would have looked like if Lost World didn’t give it a nudge. Perhaps we would’ve gotten a different classic stage, or a Colours stage instead.

Sonic being in a better position now makes me think a Frontiers stage is definitely on the cards.

I dislike the idea of the ballot and hope we don't see it again. It's good that we gotten K Rool from it but it's a curse. And I don't like the process of it. Idk. I dislike it for some reason.

I think the ballot served its purpose. Especially as Ultimate came so soon after Smash 4.

But I think a new game needs to show what NEW there is, especially from Nintendo. With the Switch being so successful, and many first-party series hitting their highs with the Switch, it’s disappointing to see some fans still acting like we’re at the bottom of the barrel for first parties.

It would be foolish of Nintendo to not capitalise on the Switch era and its new characters, especially the Switch first-party DLC veterans from Ultimate.

 

[Diddy Kong]

From what I've heard around here, K Rool's popularity actually sent some shockwaves across Nintendo's offices, as they didn't realize he was THAT popular. And even then, there were attempts from various parties to bring him back that apparently didn't go through for one reason or another. They don't HATE K Rool, he just wasn't considered a priority until now.

I'm sure at some point he WILL make a comeback, it's just been a matter of difficulty getting anything DK related off the ground.

This is all true. But there's no real excuse for DK to be dealt this horrible a hand in terms of gaming these past few years since Tropical Freeze and Smash Ultimate. That's just mismanagement of the brand.

Note I said gaming specifically cause outside of games, DK is actually stronger than ever. Its just... a game is what makes the brand the brand. Can't milk this out forever without a new game or 22.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's hard to really judge K Rool's potential in the broader Donkey Kong future because quite frankly it's not like Nintendo's been big on bringing DK characters in non-Smash spin-offs anyway. It literally took until the very last DLC of Mario Kart 8 to get Diddy and Funky back, and poor Dixie didn't even get a nod despite showing up in Tour. The Mario sports titles on Switch never go beyond including Diddy (assuming he shows up at all) while the only the series games released have been the non-Country oriented Mario vs DK Remake and port of Returns with no additions. Throw in a theme park that's clearly based on a pre-Tropical Freeze aesthetic (with Dixie being the only post 2013 addition they really have)?

K Rool may not be in a better position since Smash, but there's so little new output from the franchise in many respects that it's difficult to say he's in a worse one either.

 

[Diddy Kong]

As for K.Rool, yeah give it one more game. If he doesn't appear there, ring the alarms. But first let's get a game going already.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Off-topic, but something that annoys me about Donkey Kong fandom, and in fact a lot of platformer fandoms is... why on earth would a normal human being care about "brand management"? The last thing you want as a fan of a fictional character or universe is for it to become a "brand" or "mascot". That's something I see from Rayman fans, Mega Man fans, Banjo fans, even fellow Bubsy and Crash fans, a desire to be the "big mascot" - it'll just lead to lower quality content, look at how Mickey Mouse evolved, and began to be percieved. Nobody wants that.

 

[Dinoman96]

Off-topic, but something that annoys me about Donkey Kong fandom, and in fact a lot of platformer fandoms is... why on earth would a normal human being care about "brand management"? The last thing you want as a fan of a fictional character or universe is for it to become a "brand" or "mascot". That's something I see from Rayman fans, Mega Man fans, Banjo fans, even fellow Bubsy and Crash fans, a desire to be the "big mascot" - it'll just lead to lower quality content, look at how Mickey Mouse evolved, and began to be percieved. Nobody wants that.

To be fair, don't at least some of those actually rally against said "brand management"? Look at how people reacted to modern Paper Mario axing the unique character designs from the earlier games in favour of just conforming to the mainline New Soup/3D World aesthetic.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I do wonder what Sonic in Smash 4 would have looked like if Lost World didn’t give it a nudge. Perhaps we would’ve gotten a different classic stage, or a Colours stage instead

Well, Lost World was because of that partnership Sega and Nintendo had, it made Lost World an exclusive, Sonic Boom an exclusive and of course, Sonic in Smash 4, so he'd still have a Lost World stage. Only difference is that Sonic wouldn't have a rushed moveset grandfathered that was made in a matter of months

Off-topic, but something that annoys me about Donkey Kong fandom, and in fact a lot of platformer fandoms is... why on earth would a normal human being care about "brand management"? The last thing you want as a fan of a fictional character or universe is for it to become a "brand" or "mascot". That's something I see from Rayman fans, Mega Man fans, Banjo fans, even fellow Bubsy and Crash fans, a desire to be the "big mascot" - it'll just lead to lower quality content, look at how Mickey Mouse evolved, and began to be percieved. Nobody wants that.

What the hell are you talking about? Donkey Kong fans have just been vocally critical of Nintendo redesigning the character to make him more cutesy mascot-y potentially to make him fit in with the Mario brand more ever since they zoomed in on the Switch 2 reveal video

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

What the hell are you talking about? Donkey Kong fans have just been vocally critical of Nintendo redesigning the character to make him more cutesy mascot-y potentially to make him fit in with the Mario brand more ever since they zoomed in on the Switch 2 reveal video

I might have conflated two unrelated issues here - when I speak of "brand management", I was moreso referring to how a lot of DK(C) fans say Nintendo is "mismanaging" Donkey Kong because of the hiatus or Returns imagery or OC villains or so on - which we've seen earlier on this page - probably just more a wording issue than anything. Puts me off when consumers use corporate-adjacent terminology, and "I want my fav be a mascot too!" mentality feels aligned with that, even though, as has been pointed out, that might be a little contradictory. I dunno.

 

[Garo]

Regarding Sonic, one of the most common criticisms I see is that he turns into a ball in too many of his moves, and I just don't agree at all.

1. Disregarding get-up attacks, he turns into a ball in exactly six moves. 6 out of 21, which I think is entirely acceptable.
2. How many of those moves would you even want to change? I think just one: his side special.
3. I haven't really kept up with the series since Lost World, but I'd consider turning into a ball his 2nd most defining gameplay feature outside of fast movement. I mean, it's a real hedgehog thing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I might have conflated two unrelated issues here - when I speak of "brand management", I was moreso referring to how a lot of DK(C) fans say Nintendo is "mismanaging" Donkey Kong because of the hiatus or Returns imagery or OC villains or so on - which we've seen earlier on this page - probably just more a wording issue than anything. Puts me off when consumers use corporate-adjacent terminology, and "I want my fav be a mascot too!" mentality feels aligned with that, even though, as has been pointed out, that might be a little contradictory. I dunno.

It's the lack of games. That's the mismanagement. And the fact DK cannot get a own dedicated studio, and the one studio it had is mismanaged itself, otherwise Prime 4 would've been a released game for 5 years or so now.

 

[MartianSnake]

I've been screaming this from the rooftops for a bit now, but BLAME SEGA FOR THIS!!!

Context clues make it quite obvious why Smash 4 Sonic ended up the way he did. The brand was not interested in Sonic being Sonic, they sucked the charm and personality out of the character in a similar way to Smash. It is extremely rare, unprecedented for anyone aside from Sonic actually, for Sakurai to go back and make an adjustment like this between games, one that removes much of what makes that character themselves. That to me is a very clear response to notes he got from Sega. It makes infinitely more sense than assuming he just has it out for the guy.

The stages make sense too. Most third parties are given one stage, Sonic got two. One of them was from Lost World - notably, an exclusive deal made between Nintendo and Sega and the most prominent new title at the time. Chances are Sakurai was given a little wink and nudge from one side or the other to give this game representation. And music... well, it's hard to really say exactly what's going on, but let's say it's probably not a coincidence that the one Sonic remix in the game was made by Sega Sound Team and has seen further use in other Sonic titles. It's a weird situation clearly but the implication here is Sega doesn't play ball with remixes unless they can themselves produce and own them.

But that's the thing right, third party character design needs to answer to a higher power. Every single decision made toward Sonic in Smash was given the greenlight, or encouraged by Sega. If they want Sakurai to "fix" Sonic, it's kind of on them to let him know - and frankly, I think those notes will come in now that the brand has better come to terms with its identity and letting Sonic be 'alive' again. And I hope the surge in Sonic crossovers across the board has given Sega more confidence in giving other studios the freedom to say, remix their music and so forth. The future is looking a bit brighter, but we'll see how it goes.

On surface level, it makes sense why everyone just assumes Smash is trying to undermine Sonic for some incomprehensible reason. But I really implore everyone to think critically about it, pay attention to where Sonic was at from Smash 4 -> Ultimate, and recognize that his Smash portrayal is just a reflection of the difficult place that his series had been in for the better part of that decade.

FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT! People need to realize this for all the third-parties, but I think people struggle with sonic being "over-protected" because sega nowadays likes to portray the brand itself as "cool with anything, open for anything, do whatever you want" which is not the case, especially back during the development periods of all the smashes sonic has been in

It's the lack of games. That's the mismanagement. And the fact DK cannot get a own dedicated studio, and the one studio it had is mismanaged itself, otherwise Prime 4 would've been a released game for 5 years or so now.

To be fair the devs for prime 4 weren't Retro Studios 5 years ago

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If Smash is to continue embracing large rosters, I want to see blatant, brazen clone filler embraced as well. That feels to me like the only thing you can do on a large roster you can't really do with a smaller roster and "always next time" mentality (at least in terms of individual characters and not just matchups) - 10 distinct Yoshi colour clones is a way more interesting hook to me than "OMG X vs. Y finally!" when it comes to large rosters.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The thing about various fans and a preference for brand management is that I think in many people's minds, its simply bowing to the reality of modern game development. Back in the 3rd through 6th generations you could get a steady stream of titles from your favorite franchises because making it was generally not too expensive to create and there was generally less competition in the marketplace (with even the PC market in many ways still largely its own thing). Nowadays, in an era of HD development, risk averse companies, and a broader entertainment sector loaded with options? Having your favorite series be a brand that a company is strongly invested in is often the most practical way to actually get games from it.

It would be nice if IP releases were regular projects generally driven by creative teams wanting to try something new and meaningful for them and those above them seeing the value in such an enterprise to the point of funding it. Unfortunately, that's not the marketplace many of our favorites are in and strong corporate interest (as business first adjacent as the idea is) is simply the safest option. Soulless product is not something anyone wants but when you start going 10, 12, 15 years without another entry in your preferred series, that kind of descriptor begins to feel like it comes from a place of privilege with franchises that are lucky enough to even get new games. Especially in the era of the Switch where it feels like practically every IP is getting highlighted, those that are not getting such treatment feel all the more left out and anything that changes that context begins to become more appealing.

Yeah, back and forth about Nintendo's broader handling of DK and the issues with what the theme park is choosing to emphasize with its aesthetics may not be the height of discussion, but realistically what else have they given such fans to talk about?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

In the context of Smash, any generational bias - be it 2020s, 2010s, 2000s, 90s, 80s - is bad from a whole-roster or even whole-newcomer-selection perspective, and I'd argue that to be true even from the "whatever the devs think is fun" perspective I vouch for - but under Smash "iconic value matters" logic, most individual series are served well enough by a single period/sub-series, and in fact, I do think some series aren't biased enough - Classic Sonic and Gen 1 Pokemon come to mind as eras that should be comprising a way heftier lot of their series representation under conventional Smash logic. Perhaps arcade-era DK but there isn't much to work with there.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

To be fair the devs for prime 4 weren't Retro Studios 5 years ago

Apparently it was supposed to be Namco but that could just have been a rumor.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Lakitu would be my ideal pick for a second Mario enemy in Smash if one had to happen. Maybe Goomba would be above it, but Lakitu should definitely be before a Koopa IMO

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

On a new subject, it does feel rather sad that Smash Run never returned for Ultimate. It was a missed opportunity to utilize the Switch's local wireless features even further, but I guess it would not have worked out as intended without multiple copies of the game.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Lakitu would be my ideal pick for a second Mario enemy in Smash if one had to happen. Maybe Goomba would be above it, but Lakitu should definitely be before a Koopa IMO

Lakitu would be a perfect Bowser Jr. clone. Replace all the mechanical stuff with hammerspace shenanigans and I think it'd be quite neat.

I think Koopa Troopa is a weird thing where the moveset COULD be really cool, but I don't have as much confidence they'd pull it off. I think you'd have to make Bah Bah a big part of the moveset somehow, but that doesn't really feel like a Smash move (figuratively and literally). Some kind of shell removal mechanic is neat on paper, but I have a feeling it would be some kind of comeback mechanic or weird RNG thing.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A generic Koopa Troopa being playable would seem pretty interesting, especially if one of its moves involved using its shell as a weapon. Of course, without a shell, Koopa Troopa would take more damage than normal, and can even be damaged by its own shell (especially if used as an item by the opponent).

 

[Ze Diglett]

I do think some series aren't biased enough - Classic Sonic and Gen 1 Pokemon come to mind as eras that should be comprising a way heftier lot of their series representation under conventional Smash logic

I'd call over half the playable Pokemon being from the original 151 - plus more Poke Balls and Spirits than any other generation by a considerable margin - pretty generous to Gen 1, all things considered. If anything, the other generations are starving by comparison.

 

[TheZizz]

Chris Pratt as Mario was perfect casting, he nailed it.

 

[Perkilator]

As unlikely as it probably is, I think Crash Bandicoot and Ryu Hayabusa both seem like characters who would make sense to be in the base roster of the next Smash game.

 

[UserKev]

We don't need a Smash Bros. Movie. Do people really want this?