Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Cutie Gwen]

I think people fearing Xenoblade turning into the next Fire Emblem are missing the whole problem. The big issue Fire Emblem has is the numerous amount of clone characters beefing up the total number of characters.

Xenoblade with it's two (technically three I guess) unique characters isn't likely to have that problem. A new Xenoblade character likely won't be clone or echo fighter due to how unique the main casts are in body shape and play style.

Isn't the issue that subset of fans have more so that a smaller IP keeps getting new characters every game? Hell, I'd say that the characters being fully unique doesn't help in an era where most vocal Smash fans seem to at least understand that clones don't take much time and effort and would instead call the fully unique character the true slot stealer or whatever. After all, I don't recall Chrom getting any significant backlash, especially in comparison to Corrin or Byleth

 

[Lenidem]

I think people fearing Xenoblade turning into the next Fire Emblem are missing the whole problem. The big issue Fire Emblem has is the numerous amount of clone characters beefing up the total number of characters.

Xenoblade with it's two (technically three I guess) unique characters isn't likely to have that problem. A new Xenoblade character likely won't be clone or echo fighter due to how unique the main casts are in body shape and play style.

I might be on my own, but for me at least, the huge number of Fire Emblem characters is the problem. The fact that there is a lot of clones/semi-clones/Echoes actually helps swallowing the pill: at least, the developers didn't spend as much time on those characters than if they were all unique.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Maybe this is a bit redundant at this point, I've already made it clear that I think most Smash problems are systemic, but yeah, that goes for FE too. If being in Smash was rightfully treated as a fun, silly cameo on an official level, that would alleviate not all, but a lot of backlash to pretty much every series' quantity of content, at least on a first party level. FE's sword-iness also serves as a really good reason why main-protag-first (and objective-reasoning-based-roster-decisions in general) are bad, at least on the level of being extra reps for already-repped series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I might be on my own, but for me at least, the huge number of Fire Emblem characters is the problem. The fact that there is a lot of clones/semi-clones/Echoes actually helps swallowing the pill: at least, the developers didn't spend as much time on those characters than if they were all unique.

I think the two issues go hand in hand.

The number of Fire Emblem characters is ballooned by clones. Because Xenoblade isn't likely to get clones, it likely will never get that many characters.

 

[Lenidem]

I think the two issues go hand in hand.

The number of Fire Emblem characters is ballooned by clones. Because Xenoblade isn't likely to get clones, it likely will never get that many characters.

Besides, as of now, Xenoblade is far from being a problem. No need to worry about what might happen, IMO.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Double poop

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think people fearing Xenoblade turning into the next Fire Emblem are missing the whole problem. The big issue Fire Emblem has is the numerous amount of clone characters beefing up the total number of characters.

Xenoblade with it's two (technically three I guess) unique characters isn't likely to have that problem. A new Xenoblade character likely won't be clone or echo fighter due to how unique the main casts are in body shape and play style.

These type of people should just stop their ******** and complaining. Both are RPG series who have Smash to thank a little for their newfound popularity and fame. And I guess everyone so far uses a sword as their weapon of choice. But outside of the clones none of them are even remotely alike.

It's fair not to like a thing, but just don't be hating for no reason. Especially with Fire Emblem it's gotten bad to the point people dislike Fire Emblem just for existing.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Because Fire Emblem and Xenoblade owe so much of their modern Western success to Smash, they will always exist in the English-speaking cultural conciousness as an extension of Smash, even if subconciously. This is a VERY bad thing for all 3 series, don't get me wrong, and practically nothing short of going back in time and convincing Howard Lincoln to reallocate the Punch-Out Mike Tyson likeness money to Shadow Dragon localisation could completely eradicate that while keeping these series as popular as they continue to be internationally (which is a good thing) - but even if not valid, people hating FE or Xenoblade entirely because of Smash is a completely logical consequence of Smash being used as a marketing tool, because that's how just how people respond to commercials for things they don't want - "That Grubhub ad is so annoying, I don't want to order from Grubhub!" - it's not going to effect the large corporation's bottom line, but it's an inevitable pop cultural idea that will appear whenever a major attempt is made to promote something unfamiliar, like a little fandom-specific microcosm of the Barney/Minions/Pokemon hate of years gone by

I've warmed up to shill picks a bit over time (I think they have the benefit of atoning for Smash's attention-hogging nature to an extent), but you have to accept that if Smash is going to provide what is essentially vigilante marketing, those series will be solidified in cultural osmosis as "Smash series" and people will judge them based off of Smash-related contexts, just like how Smash using advertising as a major part of the fandom experience will lead to consumers judging Smash the same way an advertising award would judge a quirky Wendy's tweet and not as a game. It's not valid whatsoever, but it's - don't make me tap the sign - a systemic issue.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You know what's funny? Pokemon does the same exact thing and nobody bats an eye and gives a ****.

When it's Fire Emblem, or potentially Xenoblade, THAT'S when it becomes a problem.

Curious thing.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

You know what's funny? Pokemon does the same exact thing and nobody bats an eye and gives a ****.

When it's Fire Emblem, or potentially Xenoblade, THAT'S when it becomes a problem.

Curious thing.

This is an unfair comparison because Pokemon is a mega-franchise, and Smash did none of the lifting to get it where it is today - Xeno and FE aren't particularly popular outside of essentially a sub-bubble of the Nintendo bubble, and Smash typically has a strict heirarchy system, where the biggest get bigger and smallest are lucky to get anything, both towards in-game character role and out-universe game popularity - it's obvious that that is where the root of the complaints come from. I'd argue the rule is the problem and not the exception though.

Additionally, people were complaining about the quantity of Pokemon in Smash back in 64. The series had the same kiddie stigma Fortnite has today.

 

[Lenidem]

You know what's funny? Pokemon does the same exact thing and nobody bats an eye and gives a ****.

When it's Fire Emblem, or potentially Xenoblade, THAT'S when it becomes a problem.

Curious thing.

Oh, I totally hate that with Pokémon. Way too many unique playable Pokémon characters (while the concept of the PokéBall item is one of the coolest).

 

[BritishGuy54]

You know what's funny? Pokemon does the same exact thing and nobody bats an eye and gives a ****.

When it's Fire Emblem, or potentially Xenoblade, THAT'S when it becomes a problem.

Curious thing.

I’d add Super Mario to that list too. You know it’s bad when people are complaining about Mr. Video Game himself for having too much.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I’d add Super Mario to that list too. You know it’s bad when people are complaining about Mr. Video Game himself for having too much.

The only times I've ever seen someone complain about the quantity of Mario rep is to prove a point about "hypocrisy" in relation to FE rep, not because they actually believe it's overrepped.

 

[Diddy Kong]

This is an unfair comparison because Pokemon is a mega-franchise, and Smash did none of the lifting to get it where it is today - Xeno and FE aren't particularly popular outside of essentially a sub-bubble of the Nintendo bubble, and Smash typically has a strict heirarchy system, where the biggest get bigger and smallest are lucky to get anything, both towards in-game character role and out-universe game popularity - it's obvious that that is where the root of the complaints come from. I'd argue the rule is the problem and not the exception though.

Additionally, people were complaining about the quantity of Pokemon in Smash back in 64. The series had the same kiddie stigma Fortnite has today.
View attachment 398779View attachment 398780

Pokemon is a mega franchise now. It wasn't back when Smash 64 was released. It was a promotional choice and you even provided me with examples how people where annoyed by it back then.

Smash 64 was even delayed in Europe because Pokemon didn't launch here yet. It was intentional.

Yeah Fire Emblem and Xenoblade do poorly compared to Pokemon. But everything outside of Mario does poorly compared to it. It enjoyed a little promotion with Smash back in the day, didn't have Smash to thank for it's success like Fire Emblem.

Maybe that's the difference in how things are perceived. Fire Emblem had a massive boost of success thanks to Smash , but let's not ignore the big hits that where Awakening and Three Houses specifically. Its not fair to say it didn't do well. It sales consistently went up. Especially with Three Houses.

So honestly when people started to complain it already held way less weight.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Pokemon is a mega franchise now. It wasn't back when Smash 64 was released. It was a promotional choice and you even provided me with examples how people where annoyed by it back then.

Smash 64 was even delayed in Europe because Pokemon didn't launch here yet. It was intentional.

Yeah Fire Emblem and Xenoblade do poorly compared to Pokemon. But everything outside of Mario does poorly compared to it. It enjoyed a little promotion with Smash back in the day, didn't have Smash to thank for it's success like Fire Emblem.

Maybe that's the difference in how things are perceived. Fire Emblem had a massive boost of success thanks to Smash , but let's not ignore the big hits that where Awakening and Three Houses specifically. Its not fair to say it didn't do well. It sales consistently went up. Especially with Three Houses.

So honestly when people started to complain it already held way less weight.

I think you're ignoring that Pokemon is a multimedia franchise, not just a gaming franchise. Combine the anime and cartoons, the movies, the trading card games, the toys, everything, and it towers over Mario a ton. Pokemon Go is considered the most financially successful Pokemon game of all time and that isn't even something that can be measured by sales.

See, I do agree with you to an extent that there isn't much difference between Mario and Pokemon getting a ****-ton of content than with FE and hypothetically Xenoblade - hell, I could maybe argue there's merit to the notion that putting Pikachu in Smash served a promotional purpose to Pokemon, at least in localisation (even if, again, small fries compared to mass merchandising; a Billboard 200 album; and being sandwiched between Batman and Animaniacs on the WB) - however, I think FE's treatment is a contradiction to the rest of Smash's roster-building mentality, where iconic factor of both series and individual characters is weighed very heavily when considering what to give new content - fans aren't inherently at fault for taking issue with that contradiction, especially when FE's modern Western existence is irreversibly and unfortunately (necessary-evil as it is) tied to Smash - either take down the exception or take down the rule, if the likes of Star Fox, Pikmin, Wario, EarthBound and Kid Icarus had 8 characters each, external contexts be damned, would anyone complain about FE rep?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think Banjo has a bad forward smash. People assumed I was just being a hater last time I said this like 4 years ago because 'the funny animation' but you only see it when paused and the sound effect of Kazooie sounds weak to me. What I'd personally do is have that bear slam the hell out of her on the ground violently with Kazooie making a loud scream instead of a weak 'bleh' sound or have the recovery animation be idk, Banjo realizing how hard he slammed her and looking concerned or Kazooie looking very out of it when she gets put back in the backpack. It wouldn't be 100% accurate to the 64 but I feel Rare would have done that if the 64 had idk, ps2 tier specs

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think you're ignoring that Pokemon is a multimedia franchise, not just a gaming franchise. Combine the anime and cartoons, the movies, the trading card games, the toys, everything, and it towers over Mario a ton. Pokemon Go is considered the most financially successful Pokemon game of all time and that isn't even something that can be measured by sales.

See, I do agree with you to an extent that there isn't much difference between Mario and Pokemon getting a ****-ton of content than with FE and hypothetically Xenoblade - hell, I could maybe argue there's merit to the notion that putting Pikachu in Smash served a promotional purpose to Pokemon, at least in localisation (even if, again, small fries compared to mass merchandising; a Billboard 200 album; and being sandwiched between Batman and Animaniacs on the WB) - however, I think FE's treatment is a contradiction to the rest of Smash's roster-building mentality, where iconic factor of both series and individual characters is weighed very heavily when considering what to give new content - fans aren't inherently at fault for taking issue with that contradiction, especially when FE's modern Western existence is irreversibly and unfortunately (necessary-evil as it is) tied to Smash - either take down the exception or take down the rule, if the likes of Star Fox, Pikmin, Wario, EarthBound and Kid Icarus had 8 characters each, external contexts be damned, would anyone complain about FE rep?

I still don't get the complaints.

Marth was already a hugely popular requested pick for Melee. A fan favorite. And Fire Emblem clearly had a lot of popularity on the SNES with 3 games being released. Marth was even considered for 64.

Roy got in as a promotional pick, and a straight up clone. Their popularity resulted in the first localisation of the series, in fact it was planned for Roy's game to debut in the West but it got skipped in favor of the next installment.

Yes Pokemon got mass promotion and no indeed, it extended far beyond games. You named Pokemon Go but Fire Emblem Heroes did better than even Super Mario Run. It does great as a mobile game. Fire Emblem also had a anime show back in the day. Only had 2 episodes or so, but yeah, technically also a "multimedia" franchise. Even if significantly smaller than Pokemon (then again, what isn't?).

I really see no problem with it in the end. Cause its a simple cause and effect.

1: Fire Emblem did great in Japan, Fire Emblem got into Melee therefore by popular request. Characters are considered for removal in Western releases but kept in the end, and eventually warmly embraced by the fans.

2: Fire Emblem reaches Western audiences. It is nicely received. This naturally led to more Fire Emblem requests. Ike got into Brawl as a result.

3: Fire Emblem sales drop and Awakening revived the franchise and gave it a much needed boost. Awakening characters become highly discussed for this next Smash. We end up with 2 newcomers in Smash 4 and 2 through DLC. People become upset despite the characters involved have good reason to be included.

4: Three Houses releases, Smash Ultimste comes out. We only got Chrom as Echo Fighter whilst the rest returns and Byleth is a DLC character because of the great success of Three Houses. Everyone loses their mind.

Really counting out Echoes and Roy as a semi clone, there are just 5 unique Fire Emblem characters. Two full echoes who are quite the popular requests even, and for pure Echoes quite unique from their counterparts due to how their blades work.

Fire Emblem has a rotating cast too and very rarely are characters seen in future games unless by remake or sequels. So the fact we got quite a few newcomers after the massive success since Melee isn't even all that weird to me honestly.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I still don't get the complaints.

Marth was already a hugely popular requested pick for Melee. A fan favorite. And Fire Emblem clearly had a lot of popularity on the SNES with 3 games being released. Marth was even considered for 64.

Roy got in as a promotional pick, and a straight up clone. Their popularity resulted in the first localisation of the series, in fact it was planned for Roy's game to debut in the West but it got skipped in favor of the next installment.

Yes Pokemon got mass promotion and no indeed, it extended far beyond games. You named Pokemon Go but Fire Emblem Heroes did better than even Super Mario Run. It does great as a mobile game. Fire Emblem also had a anime show back in the day. Only had 2 episodes or so, but yeah, technically also a "multimedia" franchise. Even if significantly smaller than Pokemon (then again, what isn't?).

I really see no problem with it in the end. Cause its a simple cause and effect.

1: Fire Emblem did great in Japan, Fire Emblem got into Melee therefore by popular request. Characters are considered for removal in Western releases but kept in the end, and eventually warmly embraced by the fans.

2: Fire Emblem reaches Western audiences. It is nicely received. This naturally led to more Fire Emblem requests. Ike got into Brawl as a result.

3: Fire Emblem sales drop and Awakening revived the franchise and gave it a much needed boost. Awakening characters become highly discussed for this next Smash. We end up with 2 newcomers in Smash 4 and 2 through DLC. People become upset despite the characters involved have good reason to be included.

4: Three Houses releases, Smash Ultimste comes out. We only got Chrom as Echo Fighter whilst the rest returns and Byleth is a DLC character because of the great success of Three Houses. Everyone loses their mind.

Really counting out Echoes and Roy as a semi clone, there are just 5 unique Fire Emblem characters. Two full echoes who are quite the popular requests even, and for pure Echoes quite unique from their counterparts due to how their blades work.

Fire Emblem has a rotating cast too and very rarely are characters seen in future games unless by remake or sequels. So the fact we got quite a few newcomers after the massive success since Melee isn't even all that weird to me honestly.

Fire Emblem having an anime doesn't make it a multimedia franchise, just a game that has an OVA - nobody would say Mario is a multimedia franchise just because there's a movie, or say SpongeBob is a gaming franchise above a cartoon. Pokemon's presence as a game is neither secondary nor primary to its existence as an anime. Outside of the Nintendo bubble, the gap between FE and Pokemon is that of New Zealand and Spain, and that is really the perspective from which FE complaints come from - not from the perspective of niche forum-dwelling Nintendo fandom, but from a mainstream "normie" view, the view where Funky Kong is a Mario Kart Wii character and not a Donkey Kong Country character.

Back to my argument and not the "FE is overrepped" perspective I'm simply trying to contextualise, you're putting a lot of stock in how much fans wanted these characters and how much rational reason there is for them to be added, when my argument is that Smash appealing to fan demand and rational logic, instead of just doing whatever would be fun, IS the rotten tumor that got us where we are. Smash fans are not entitled because they're bad apples, Smash fans are entitled because Nintendo entitles them; Smash fans don't gasp for clues and rules because they're trying to gatekeep, Smash fans gasp for clues and rules because Sakurai uses any kind of logic in the first place. FE breaking the rule - that big franchises get big numbers and small franchies get small - is not bad, what is bad is that the rule exists, and the way to destigmatise the outliers is to get rid of the rule. By appealing to fan demand so heavily (or even at all), Smash is inherently getting involved in fandom politics, which would include the complaints about FE as well as the support, yet they're not really listening to either, continuing to add FE characters but also not the non-sword-users and legacy characters people tend to ask for - which is a perfect example (among many many many, you could probably name one for each series in the game) of why fan demand is a poison, because "fans" are not a single, cohesive entity with the same goal or desire, and making fans happy with what they want only works if you make an active effort to avoid what they don't want, which will often be what other fans want (see the Sonic 4 countdown, that's appealing to fan demand right there.). Ultimate had no place putting in Byleth because it was meant to be a "fan love letter" - however, Byleth didn't fail Ultimate's intent, Ultimate's intent failed Byleth.

 

[Louie G.]

Fire Emblem and Xenoblade aren’t really in the same conversation here anyway, I think we have to wait and see how Xenoblade 3 is handled next game before we make that judgement.

Otherwise Shulk and Pyra / Mythra were hardly driven by that perceived promotional aspect. When Shulk was added, Xenoblade was barely off the ground and it was equivalent to adding more of a cult classic. Pyra and Mythra are from the series’ breakout hit title and were genuinely popular requests (give or take Rex).

Noah and Mio are fairly popular, their game was a humble success, but are driven more heavily by the “new game” sentiment than their predecessors who got in for more isolated reasons. I know we all feel that at least one of these two is pretty likely, but I think making rash judgement about the role of a series like Xenoblade right now, post-Ultimate, based on two characters is jumping the gun.

 

[Dinoman96]

Assuming if Sakurai really did begin planning the next Smash Bros. in mid 2021, I honestly even wonder if he was aware of Xenoblade 3 being a thing, or if Noah and Mio are just gonna get the same treatment ARMS and XB2 did in Ultimate.

Thinking about it through, I suppose the silver lining here is that development for Sak's next game truly begin in April 2022, shortly after XB3 was announced at the February Direct that year.

 

[UserKev]

Y'know when we discuss third party, people are usually quick to list Sonic as the sure shoe in but I'm honestly indifferent now. While I love the Sonic franchise and don't necessarily want him.. cut, I'm just tired of him at the same time. Nintendo and SEGA becoming near synonymous is something I'm actually starting to fear. No. Sonic isn't a lock. No. We shouldn't expect more reps the next game. Maybe if the Sonic franchise had already gotten a new addition I wouldn't be so of an indifference like I am now. I'm just over it. And really don't see Sonic as this special priority. He's third party and a limbo case. And Sonic in next game isn't refreshing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nintendo and SEGA becoming near synonymous is something I'm actually starting to fear

I have no clue what this is supposed to mean cause it's not like every Sega title hits the Switch, hell, most of my games on ps5 are Sega games unavailable on Switch

 

[Louie G.]

Nintendo and SEGA becoming near synonymous is something I'm actually starting to fear. No. Sonic isn't a lock.

Nintendo and Sega are nowhere near synonymous right now, but Sonic is a lock. Unless they’re just wiping the slate clean on third parties altogether there is a net zero percent chance that Sonic is removed. If anything, Mario and Sonic have been the yin to the other’s yang for the better part of thirty-something years…

So I’m not sure why it’s only recently become a problem, after the Mario & Sonic Olympics series has come and gone, and after Sonic dabbled (and largely failed) with Nintendo exclusive titles. Sega is probably in a healthier independent state today than they were when they released SA2B twenty years ago, let alone Lost World ten years ago.

New Sonic characters are a different story. No guest character is guaranteed anything beyond their singular ambassador and I agree that Sonic is often put on this somewhat entitled pedestal of needing that new character more than any other. I think given Sonic’s current brand success and the re-emergence of that supporting cast now is as good a time as any to add one, but I’m personally not pressed either way. More than anything they just need to fix his design… not in the “remove all the ball moves” way, just in the “create a fun and balanced character” way. God knows we don’t need two of him as it stands.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ultimate's intent might have indeed failed Byleth. I was always quite dissatisfied with their move set.

I just don't think the Fire Emblem situation is gonna change much. Especially since Engage and Heroes keep the current cast we have "relevant". And the aim of these games is exactly to do so....Work with a cast we know, recycle a little.

I don't think Fire Emblem will have a newcomer next time however. Unless they go with Alear.

 

[Laniv]

I've been guilty of this in the past, but I think it's weird when people say the echoes we have are free and easy to come back and then say Dr. Mario is getting the axe

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've been guilty of this in the past, but I think it's weird when people say the echoes we have are free and easy to come back and then say Dr. Mario is getting the axe

At most it's cause he does have more work required in total by itself(he has more overall differences from Mario), but even then, he's still pretty damn easy compared to the other clones. They also took shortcuts to make him stand out from Mario(they share some animations and obviously use the same voice and bodyframe, but they play quite differently).

So it makes a bit of sense when they don't put him in the same category of work, and otherwise cause some dislike "the same person, but a different character". It's not even because he's a clone that's almost like an Echo, either. It's unfortunate too, cause he's actually a very fun take on how Mario plays, changing it up quite a bit.

----------------

To mildly reply to one of the other debates; yes, having an OVA makes you a multimedia franchise. It's not even a technicality. Multi means multiple. Is it more than one media? Then yes, it counts. It doesn't mean anything beyond the definition, though, but I do agree that Fire Emblem having 5 unique newcomers is justified. It makes sense within the context of their additions along with Smash. Having a semi-clone and two Echoes is fine. They all have proven to be quite popular as options, anyway. The most divisive ones happen to be... the non-clones/non-echoes.

 

[Louie G.]

I've been guilty of this in the past, but I think it's weird when people say the echoes we have are free and easy to come back and then say Dr. Mario is getting the axe

Agreed, which is why echoes are not free. People are far too lenient with them as if they just spawn in the moment their source character does. I’m glad that the echo label has finally assured the community that clones are no big deal, but now they’re just taken for granted. Even someone as simple as Dark Pit needs to be adjusted for a different Side B and new Final Smash.

I mean, the fact that Dr. Mario was ever cut to begin with implies he’s more than a simple rush job too. If he can be cut for time constraints then there is clearly time he’s constraining.

There are only two echo fighters who I think are 100% safe no matter what - Lucina and Daisy. The former provides a popular alternative playstyle for little effort, the latter has only become more significant since her Smash debut. Richter is probably safe as long as Simon is, everyone else… not necessarily doomed or anything, but I wouldn’t be as confident as some people are about it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In terms of Echo Fighters, not all of them can be used the same way. In fact, Dark Samus, Daisy, and Richter come the closest to being "true" Echo Fighters, while the others have some differences that prevent you from using them the same way.

• Lucina: Her attacks have no sourspots, as their damage output is basically in-between Marth's sourspot and sweetspot hits.
• Chrom: Same as with Lucina (no sourspots), his Soaring Slash is more comparable to Ike's Aether, and he has his own Final Smash.
• Dark Pit: Arrows can't change direction as quickly, and Electroshock Arm deals horizontal knockback. He also has his own Final Smash.
• Ken: Has his own set of attacks that set him apart from Ryu. In fact, he's more comparable to a semi-clone than an actual Echo Fighter.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't completely buy that Ultimate's roster wasn't decided in part or even entirely by statistics, algorithms and mathematics.

 

[Baysha]

(he has more overall differences from Mario)

I mean yeah, he isn't wearing any.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

Platform fighters deserve the world
Smash fans deserve less

Also, yo mama

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Platform fighters deserve the world
Smash fans deserve less

I would argue to the contrary: Smash fans deserve higher quality games and more ethical marketing. As an early-Smash and non-Smash platfighter fan, nu-Smash fans are getting a raw deal too, they just don't realise it because nu-Smash does such a good job of key-dangling.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

I would argue to the contrary: Smash fans deserve higher quality games and more ethical marketing. As an early-Smash and non-Smash platfighter fan, nu-Smash fans are getting a raw deal too, they just don't realise it because nu-Smash does such a good job of key-dangling.

I would argue. Shut up bro

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I would argue. Shut up bro

I really can't tell if you disagree but don't see a reason to elaborate, or you just think my wording makes me look like a nerd.

EDIT:
I've been meaning to say this for a while, and alluded to it a few times, but always got a bit of cold feet over it, but may as well just let it out: edgy headline-chasing Smash trailers make me uncomfortable beyond a simple distaste for the tonal choice. I don't care how lovingly true it is to the source material, I really didn't need to see the rotting carcass of Marth get thrown off a cliff, let alone think about that when I'm cartoonishly beating up a literal child or quadrupedal dog. I think it's one of the biggest reasons I'm dreading the return of Smash, and while it isn't the main one, it's a very strong reason why I want trailers to go away once and for all.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

Heyy guys. I'd like to apologize for my behavior last night. I got really drunk and went online when I shouldn't have. That's an excuse to act like the way I did, I know.

 

[UserKev]

I believe Daisy is a lock. Daisy and Dark Samus are definitive door openers. Actually I'm confident I can say Sakurai was looking at Daisy and came up with the term 'Echo' he was bound to run with. I believe Daisy is the original Echo and is too memorable to be discredited.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I believe Daisy is a lock. Daisy and Dark Samus are definitive door openers. Actually I'm confident I can say Sakurai was looking at Daisy and came up with the term 'Echo' he was bound to run with. I believe Daisy is the original Echo and is too memorable to be discredited.

Although I hope that they try to slightly differentiate the two characters more (Peach and Daisy) since she is the only echo who is identical in terms of moveset. Dark Samus doesn’t have unique moves either but the animation changes causes some moves to be slightly better or worse then Samus

My opinion is that most of the echoes are going to return but the only ones at risk are the ones where their original characters are also at a risk.

 

[UserKev]

Although I hope that they try to slightly differentiate the two characters more (Peach and Daisy) since she is the only echo who is identical in terms of moveset. Dark Samus doesn’t have unique moves either but the animation changes causes some moves to be slightly better or worse then Samus

My opinion is that most of the echoes are going to return but the only ones at risk are the ones where their original characters are also at a risk.

Honestly, Daisy is fine. This is another unpopular opinion I want to add now that we're discussing the topic. Echo Daisy is still very fun. Dark Samus is self obvious. But Daisy would be monotonous with her own original moveset. I wouldn't mind maybe Boxing gloves but yeah. She's fine as an echo. Daisy does not need to be differentiated from Peach. I will die on this hill.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

"Echo Daisy" is only fun because you happen to like Peach.

There is absolutely nothing substantial that differentiates the two in Ultimate to the point Daisy may as well not be her own character and should just be an alt of Peach.

Give her at least something different if you're going to make her an Echo, because if you somehow don't even cross the low bar Dark Pit set (and he had even less move property differences from Pit in Ultimate), then you're worthless of an addition. No arguments.

 

[fogbadge]

I have this sudden feeling it’s all about to kick off