Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[UserKev]

This is some prime Pirate Ship slander.

I'm sorry but Zelda content is very boring in the context of Smash. Very barebones. And uninspiring. But this is only my opinion I guess. I just think Zelda deserve better.

 

[SamusIsMommy22]

Addressing the Zelda point, I have to kinda agree. I actually been having this thought but I find it difficult to put into words. Link's moveset is unfun. And Zelda stages haven't been enjoyable since Melee.

Agree with everything but the stages, and I like playing as Link, but Three Links are too much. Three Links, TWO ZELDAS and GANONDORF IS CAPTIAN FALCON BUT WORSE!! WHERE IS THE RESPECT!! AND MIDNA, GHIRIHIM, AND SKULL KID ARE JUST ASSIST TROPHIES!! I HATE THAT!! And don't even get me started on how bitter I am that Breath of the Wild Zelda didn't get in!! But now with TOTK out, at least they have a chance to make Ganondorf a good charecter. Big Daddy Ganondorf from Tears of the Kingdom has SO MUCH POTENTIAL for a moveset. But yeah, despite being the greatest franchise of all time, the Legend of Zelda series sucks in Smash

 

[Diddy Kong]

A reworked Link, Zelda and Ganondorf along with a newcomer who I prefer to be Impa, and I think Zelda is fine. Sheik and another version of Link thrown in because of the fans, and we good. I do think the series warrants an extra fighter after this, but this would do for me.

 

[UserKev]

A reworked Link, Zelda and Ganondorf along with a newcomer who I prefer to be Impa, and I think Zelda is fine. Sheik and another version of Link thrown in because of the fans, and we good. I do think the series warrants an extra fighter after this, but this would do for me.

I don't think there's anything you can do to save Zelda's quality unless under some special treatment. Many of its beloved but "one off" characters fly under the radar. Unless this change for starter, Zelda will likely always be.. meh. And underwhelming.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think there's anything you can do to save Zelda's quality unless under some special treatment. Many of its beloved but "one off" characters fly under the radar. Unless this change for starter, Zelda will likely always be.. meh. And underwhelming.

Sheik is a one off character. She's here. And against the odds stayed on the roster. I could see her getting cut however if they go for drastic reductions.

I could also very well see a Champion like Urbosa make it in. But Midna and Skull Kid am way less confident of.

Honestly am an advocate for Impa for this very reason. She'll stay around, and she's popular. Just check how she was received in Age of Calamity. She's also always the very first ally you get if there are more playable characters.

I also think Ganon is a reasonable choice honestly.

 

[SamusIsMommy22]

I don't think there's anything you can do to save Zelda's quality unless under some special treatment. Many of its beloved but "one off" characters fly under the radar. Unless this change for starter, Zelda will likely always be.. meh. And underwhelming.

The legend of Zelda has so many vibrant, incredibly charecters, all with great moveset potential!! Skull Kid, Midna, Ghirihim, Demise, Urbosa and the other champions, Master Kogha, Marin, Tingle, Groose, Riju, Monk Maz Koshia, Happy Mask Salesman, Fi would be cool, Impa, Rauru, Zant, Vaati, Ravio, Yuga, Purah, Robbie, Agitha, and tons of others. And now that there are lots of new, awesome charecters that were in Age of Calamity, Tears of the Kingdom, and Echoes of Wisdom, they have to put in a new one!! If the pass up the chance to put TOTK Ganondorf in Smash I will be so mad, he has so much potential for a moveset!! BUT PLEASE, PUT IN A NEW CHARECTER!!! AT THE VERY LEAST PUT IN ECHOES ZELDA AND TRI, BUT PLEASE NINTENDO, AS A GARGANTIUN, ZELDA FAN, AND A HUGE SMASH FAN, JUST PLEASE PUT IN A NEW CHARECTER, WE HAVN'T GOT ONE FOR TWO FREAKING GAMES, AND THE ONE IN BRAWL WAS JUST ANOTHER LINK!!

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

There's a lot of discourse about how "Japanese" Smash is/should be, and it got me thinking, and really... Smash isn't Japanese enough, but that coexists with Smash not being Western enough, if that makes sense? Smash's Japanese-ness is only really in the external reality of the individual games represented, but there isn't much in the way of content directly reflecting Japanese culture - a few items (the party ball, tanooki leaf, and fan), I guess the fact that most of Street Fighter's content is devoted to Ryu, and at a stretch Greninja? but there aren't really any playable characters who are like, yokai or samurai. All the dragon characters have wings even. And even from a meta-textual gaming sense, we've been over the lack of series like Pop'n Music and Power Pros a few times.

I don't think we have enough knowledge of how Smash handles Western IPs to say if it has any real patterns with external cultural representation, but I will say that as a British person, Banjo - a character who, while not popular in the UK, is very much a product of the sort of quaint-but-cheeky Beano/Aardman humour style - was portrayed in a way where his Britishness isn't as apparent as it is in the source material, little details like the fart sound effect for grenade egg and Kazooie swallowing jiggies being omitted sting a tiny bit as a British person who gets that kind of humour, though I'm not sure to what extent that matters as I'm not a Banjo fan and already find his whole inclusion somewhat questionable in motive.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly getting at least regionally popular spirits would be a nice thing to have with some regularity for the next Smash. I'm under no illusions that ZX Spectrum associated game figures are ever going to be playable, but a spirit event with Jet Set Willy, Manic Miner, and Jetpac? You could do a lot worse.

 

[fogbadge]

There's a lot of discourse about how "Japanese" Smash is/should be, and it got me thinking, and really... Smash isn't Japanese enough, but that coexists with Smash not being Western enough, if that makes sense? Smash's Japanese-ness is only really in the external reality of the individual games represented, but there isn't much in the way of content directly reflecting Japanese culture - a few items (the party ball, tanooki leaf, and fan), I guess the fact that most of Street Fighter's content is devoted to Ryu, and at a stretch Greninja? but there aren't really any playable characters who are like, yokai or samurai. All the dragon characters have wings even. And even from a meta-textual gaming sense, we've been over the lack of series like Pop'n Music and Power Pros a few times.

wow that is quite a take. I think this more a case of it doesn't have a lot of what you consider japanese. there's plenty of characters both playable and and in cameos who have distinct japanese flavour too them. many of them are based on tropes that are common with their fiction, especially all the jrpg characters. in fact you're constantly complaining that this series takes it self far too seriously, which is reoccurring problem in anime. based on your examples I'd say you experience with japanese culture is about as limited as an average western and I don't think you really should be judging

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

wow that is quite a take. I think this more a case of it doesn't have a lot of what you consider japanese. there's plenty of characters both playable and and in cameos who have distinct japanese flavour too them. many of them are based on tropes that are common with their fiction, especially all the jrpg characters. in fact you're constantly complaining that this series takes it self far too seriously, which is reoccurring problem in anime. based on your examples I'd say you experience with japanese culture is about as limited as an average western and I don't think you really should be judging

That is a good point actually, there are very obviously subtle nuances I cannot pick up on and might not even be intentional in the same way non-satirical American media doesn't sit down and say "let's be American". Really what I was trying to say is just that I'd like to see overt references to Japanese culture in Smash, but your point does stand.

 

[Laniv]

That is a good point actually, there are very obviously subtle nuances I cannot pick up on and might not even be intentional in the same way non-satirical American media doesn't sit down and say "let's be American". Really what I was trying to say is just that I'd like to see overt references to Japanese culture in Smash, but your point does stand.

So what you're saying is, Takamaru for Smash 6

 

[fogbadge]

That is a good point actually, there are very obviously subtle nuances I cannot pick up on and might not even be intentional in the same way non-satirical American media doesn't sit down and say "let's be American". Really what I was trying to say is just that I'd like to see overt references to Japanese culture in Smash, but your point does stand.

exactly there’s plenty of things we’ll miss out, like what you were about certain very British things missing from B&K.

as for overt references, well there’s some little things like tails, meowth, sephiroth’s sword etc

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

So what you're saying is, Takamaru for Smash 6

Takamaru was on the mind when I posted this lmao. I'm not even a die-hard Takamaru supporter, and have doubts they'd make his swordfighting style as distinct as it can be, but the Murasame Castle stage should've happened a long time ago regardless of if Takamaru is or isn't in, and hell Murasame himself would make a cool Smash pull in his own right.

 

[chocolatejr9]

So what you're saying is, Takamaru for Smash 6

You spelt "Jibanyan" wrong...

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

You spelt "Jibanyan" wrong...

We all know the real money is in (what may or may not be) Yeah Yeah Beebiss 1.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Quoting this, guess it's just barely relevant enough:

I really wish platform fighter fans were more open to non-IP-crossover games, and that the platform fighter genre was not treated as "the crossover genre" where character attachment is the main driving force behind game choice. What percentage of the Smash roster were you familiar with when you first played it as a kid? It's probably not too far off from the percentage of the Rivals roster taken up by Shovel Knight. If Smash's only appeal is having Mario next to Sephiroth, then why does your crossover of choice have to be a platform fighter, why couldn't it just be a tradfighter or some other sport, why don't the crossovers that already exist - even if they're simply cheap mobile titles or old crossover ads - already statisfy? And if people looked at media as a whole the same way people look at platform fighters, they wouldn't like any characters except whatever random Disney side character they happened to have printed on their baby onesie. In every other gaming genre, licensed characters add a stigma, but platform fighters have the opposite and it's just depressing, even as someone who wishes more ephemeric games like licensed games got more love and considers NASB1 his favourite game of all time.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

While it wasn't really by intention, it feels like platform fighters have become inherently crossover focused, because the nature of the game allows it to be mass market friendly to potential fans of all the involved IP's regardless of the franchises point of origin. Especially in a QoL oriented gaming landscape, Smash like games have become an easy sell because the basics are fairly straightforward, the depth to be found doesn't typically manifest in an intimidating way to newcomers, and because their very design is such that even low skill players can have fun when the game is appropriately adjusted.

Platformer and action-adventure fans can easily be lured to something like SSB, but even RPG and traditional fighting game fans can generally get into without too much trouble and with greater ease than the reverse hypothetical. If Smash had spin-offs that played like traditional role-playing games or something like a mid 90s arcade fighter it would be successful... but it would likely not reach the numbers of an Ultimate because the very nature of those formats would be a barrier to some in a way that a SSBU is not.

Thus, with licensed properties it's in many ways the same thing. Platformers, racing games, gacha card titles, basic shooters, and yes platform fighters are often the easiest sell because the base concepts are the simplest to get across to casual audiences.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I didn’t like the Akira assist trophy using a polygonal look. It just feels out of place to single out Virtua Fighter to give that kind of look because yeah the early VF games are iconic but the series has still had multiple HD entries. There were only two Virtua Fighter games that looked remotely like his assist trophy does. VF 3, 4, and 5 are big parts of its legacy that didn’t look polygonal at all.

I guess it mostly bugs me because there’s not any other polygonal assist trophies besides Andross. (Who’s a different case because Starfox has much more representation than just him.) It feels like they’re singling out Virtua Fighter for being “haha so old and retro!” Do I think they’re intentionally disrespecting it? Not really it just feels inconsistent. There’s not really much of a broader point it’s just something that bugs me and I wish Smash was more consistent about it.

Oh also Gray Fox is an assist too, and he doesn’t have a polygonal look despite the fact he’s only been seen in that design in MGS1. And you know, I like that they made that decision. I would prefer polygonal looks for assist trophies when it’s a more generic thing that happened to be in an early 3D game, like a mad piano or ridge racer car if those were to be assists.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't like how some people seem to think all victory themes should be stage clear themes, especially annoys me in the context of Yoshi.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Smash needs to abandon not just character trailers, but also character reveals as a whole. If you show everyone at once, there are no winners and very few losers - fandom tribalism is, if not erradicated, at least tamed to a weaker form, since the characters an individual doesn't want isn't hogging the attention, and the likelihood of a character at least appealing to someone is high. It's the closest you can get to the "everyone gets what they want" high Sakurai has been chasing since Melee. Additionally, it also gets rid of the "troll Sakurai" mentality - allows creative picks to stand on their own and not just be an anticlimax to ridiculous conspiracy theories or a disembodied "what the ****?" reaction in a void - however, most importantly, it benefits all content that isn't fighters by allowing them to be the meat and potatoes of any announcement and not just "filler", which would be a massive benefit to Assist Trophies in particular, and I'd hope people would be able to see them as an honour as they are intended, and as being chosen after the fighters and not "eh, throw em in the assist pile", through that (not that Nintendo/Namco's own marketing and game design decisions at times haven't done work to fuel that fire...). Let us not forget that the Smash 64 Japanese commercial gives an equal amount of attention to DK's jungle as the fighters.

As I've said many a time though... capitalism's gonna capitalism, and I doubt Sakurai's "make everyone happy" mentality is all too sincere.

I'd definitely could do without character trailers or reveals as a whole here for being able to nip the entire fandom/speculation-based toxicity and overzealousness to the bud very early and allow all the elements stand better on their own - or at least, give better time for everyone to get over the characters that won't be joining the roster in mere month's time over about... 3 years almost. There's a reason I fell off from supporting Dixie Kong as I got tired of the speculation era dragging on so long + clearly noticing the priority given to 3rd Parties or certain recent promotion-based Nintendo-IPs.

It gets very exhausting and possibly enbittering of severe manner to supporter bases, having to ride or die to seeing their most wanted until either theirs get deconfirmed (Geno and more popular Assists like Isaac), or if the speculation era comes fully to an end after the DLC's finally finished - which we've gone to experience 3 years previously before wrapping up. That's a ton of dedication and buildup that to so, so many - is only going to end up having their long-enduring carpets pulled out of them, falling to deep depths of heavy disappointment and possibly even have to endure widespread mockery on top incase the fanbase itself has been notorious for being "vocal"... or just very passionate. (Geno, once more).

On the flipside there'll be support bases getting their character confirmed and thus come out a winner, but but that's only a select few support bases out so many. Sometimes there'll also be the "WTF"-choices to these bases, possibly pissing off the ones from outside of Nintendo's circle (whatever all went down with Byleth).


In anycase, I think the entire series has become more pigeonholed on it's character reveals having become the single-most important experience that most come for the series these days, especially in the reveal reaction culture.

Now don't get me wrong, I've heard good bit of people being more than satisfied by just getting one most wanted character - but I feel to majority, the character reveals and the fandom culture, wars and art ensuing from them seems to have become more interesting form of engagement than the game itself. I guess because all the weird pairings or crossover clashes of their dreams have finally risen beyond "Deviantart-tier cringe" to "Fully Endorsed and Gloriously Funded By Masahiro Sakurai" + getting to point and laugh at whoever didn't make it depending on how passion the fanbase was. (Like I'm sure there'd been widespread mockery and memetic loserfication of Sora not making it, if it was someone else as the last fighter.)

It only ends highlighting more how Ultimate feels more shallower than previous entries game mode/presentation-wise with it's heavier focus on roster size and character reveals, whilst filling in blanks with packed-in content from last games like stages - in exchange for not pushing the series much forward in game mechanics UNLESS it's in form of the gimmicks or even additional moves to DLC Characters that keep gaining new ways of fighting in comparison to regular movesets of the base roster.

(Also I lowkey want the Powershield back + fusion attack priority problem fixed...)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think to a degree the character reveal trailer emphasis goes hand in hand with the Nintendo Direct marketing strategy; both geared up on the latter era of the Wii U, both have become tied with online reaction phenomenon, and both are part of a broader utilization of franchise fanaticism which gaming in general has zeroed in on. It makes for a very complex relationship between companies and customers in general, specifically a question as to when do reasonable complaints end and fan entitlement begins. For all the finger wagging about people having unreasonable expectations during Directs and/or Smash presentations when they're disappointed, it can't be forgotten that the contemporary dynamic is one that Nintendo has taken advantage of for their own benefit.

Beyond the effects on something like Smash specifically, the current model is also one that renders the eventual magnified antipathy towards a Nintendo when things don't live up to perceived expectations an inevitability. You've monetized hype; did you really think it would come with no downside?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It makes for a very complex relationship between companies and customers in general, specifically a question as to when do reasonable complaints end and fan entitlement begins. For all the finger wagging about people having unreasonable expectations during Directs and/or Smash presentations when they're disappointed, it can't be forgotten that the contemporary dynamic is one that Nintendo has taken advantage of for their own benefit.

the current model is also one that renders the eventual magnified antipathy towards a Nintendo when things don't live up to perceived expectations an inevitability. You've monetized hype; did you really think it would come with no downside?

Thank you so much for saying this. I've been trying to tell so many people that the "entitlement" around Smash is Nintendo/Sakurai's problem to deal with for ages, because they're the ones who sent the message - sometimes verbally - of "this is your game, it will give you what you want, and you will celebrate". Not that fans are inherently innocent, but - as is typical with corp vs. consumer power dynamics - they're the much lesser evil both as a mass and in the case of a near-100% majority of individual fans, and very much the monster to Nintendo's Dr. Frankenstein.

That being said, contextualising the Smash reveal machine around the general Nintendo Direct machine does give me just a slimmer of hope that this whole "culmination-of-everything hype culture" thing could soom become as distant and laughable a memory as "Genesis Does What Nintendon't".

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't really like the idea of Shovel Knight in Smash - or even the character's existing limited presence in the game - because Shovel Knight is a very popular character who is cheap and easy for indie games to license out, and Smash would greatly overshadow all of those other cameos. It's one thing for Shovel Knight to pop up in Fall Guys, there isn't a die-hard Fall Guys skin culture that pops off over the branded Sexy Colonel Sanders skin or whatever, but unfortunately Smash is another beast, and overshadows Nintendo's OWN game library.

In general, I used to like the idea of indie games in Smash, but now I think it's just an inherently bad idea. Either you get a big dog and you overshadow the little guys that indie cameo licensing is intended to foster, or you force a little guy to deal with big dog attention suddenly. Undertale is maybe an exception since Toby Fox is pretty shy of cameos, it would read as a little insincere to me (as does the Sans mii costume) considering past comments, but that's not a real issue, and I don't think any modern day Smash inclusion - even 1P - is truly sincere on any party's part.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I don't like how some people seem to think all victory themes should be stage clear themes, especially annoys me in the context of Yoshi.

Okay, but I don't think a remix of the Yoshi's Island stage clear theme would be necessarily bad.

https://soundcloud.com/user-162383856%2Fyoshis-island-goal-results

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Okay, but I don't think a remix of the Yoshi's Island stage clear theme would be necessarily bad.

https://soundcloud.com/user-162383856%2Fyoshis-island-goal-results

OK, this take's pretty good. Still though, IMO Story Music Box > Story theme > Goal as Yoshi's victory theme

 

[FazDude]

Okay, but I don't think a remix of the Yoshi's Island stage clear theme would be necessarily bad.

https://soundcloud.com/user-162383856%2Fyoshis-island-goal-results

Smash Fanfares never misses.

I think it could be cool if every fighter had a unique results theme alongside their main victory motif. You could easily keep the Yoshi's Story theme for the main jingle and then the YI results music for the... well, results.

 

[Louie G.]

The Yoshi's Island stage clear theme isn't that remarkable as a short few second long jingle, but the triumphant carnival tune that plays afterwards is the star. I'm game for them to switch Yoshi's theme over to that song if they start standardizing looping tracks after the victory theme.

Related note, I just about cried tears of joy when I heard this in Mario Kart 8. They totally nailed it.

But I generally agree that level clear themes in and of themselves aren't always the right answer. My favorite take on a Bowser victory theme was Bowser's Message from 64 which is just perfect. Similarly love the idea of Peach's theme being the little ditty that plays when you read her letter... although honestly Peach has like two or three other picks I like just as much. Always been partial to SMB1 Credits.

 

[fogbadge]

Smash Fanfares never misses.

I dunno. the ultimate version of the zelda victory is kinda of underwhelming

 

[FazDude]

I dunno. the ultimate version of the zelda victory is kinda of underwhelming

I was referring to the Soundcloud acc Gorgonzales linked to.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

With this discussion of Zelda representation I also see online many people talking about how many other characters are misrepresented. It makes me think that Smash as a series needs more than just one director. The difficult part of making a "celebration of games" with only one director is that you're only getting one persons perspective of what gaming is. Sakurai is a good director but with him being the only guy in charge you're only getting one POV of these characters and their respective series. You can definitely tell that he loves Fire Emblem for more than Zelda. And his view of most guest characters is usually just based on their first few games. You can also tell that he some times doesn't seem to understand certain characters so he tries to create his own version of them but despite their characters being more refined over the years he still insists on sticking with his incarnations.

Though some of this could also be a problem of Smash's roster getting so massive. Ultimate is a double-edged sword as while we got everyone back there clearly wasn't enough time to give many of them significant reworks or the appropriate changes needed to make them feel more like themselves.

If I may here are some examples of characters that I feel are misrepresented

• Donkey Kong - Made up Side and Up Special despite new abilities to pull from. Realistic voice rather than his standard one
• Bowser - Same as DK. Despite being a showboater and a power hungry king in his games he's treated as a random Monster.
• Sonic - Majority of moves are just BALL and I think that's because Sakurai may have made a moveset better suited for a Classic Sonic rather than a modern one
• Sora - Only uses moves from KH1 with only some minor references to 2.
• Pac-Man - Has more Namco arcade references than actual Pac-Man moves. Probably because of the reason he was cut from Brawl. Sakurai still sees him as the yellow circle with a bite taken out of it.
• Ganondorf - Still heavily based on Captain Falcon. Has more than enough incarnations to pull from
• Wario - Reduced to spastic funny fart man. Minus his shoulder charge he gets little to nothing from the Wario Land or World games
• Luigi - Treated as abstract weird guy with mainly made up moves
• Pikachu/Pichu - Species can't use Skull Bash any more
• Dark Samus - Has her own list of powers but is just an Echo of Samus. Has less differences between her and Samus than Mario and Dr. Mario
• Daisy - Is a tomboy but hides behind a Toad and has overly bubbly attacks that don't suit her.
• Mario - Overly serious and angry for some reason despite a jolly athletic guy. Though his new taunts help a bit.
• Pit/Dark Pit - Still feels like he's relying on his Brawl version despite so much added in Uprising
• The majority of fighters that have a down special counter. Either it doesn't make sense or it takes away from potentially more unique options (Also I just hate special counters lol)

I could probably name more but those were the ones that bug me the most. And I'm probably going to say that most controversial thing on here but I feel like Nick All-Star and Multiversus represent their characters better than Smash at this point. Even Shaggy being based on the Ultra-Instinct meme. Because at least that came from somewhere rather than just being made up.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Ultimate is a double-edged sword as while we got everyone back there clearly wasn't enough time to give many of them significant reworks or the appropriate changes needed to make them feel more like themselves.

Actually reanimating a lot of old vets was one of the main reasons EIH would've been a drain on newcomers, it just isn't immediately obvious because of stuff like Ganondorf still being mostly Falcondorf.

And yes, Sonic would've been mainly made with Classic Sonic in mind if you consider that Sonic the Fighters was the main inspiration for the moveset.

 

[SharkLord]

You can definitely tell that he loves Fire Emblem for more than Zelda.

Eh... That's debatable. Yeah, there's eight fighters, but most of them have some sort of context beyond "Sakurai likes FE a lot." Roy and Lucina were quick clones, with Roy being brought back because of fan outcry. Chrom was also a quick clone, and was highlighted as someone who did well on the Ballot. Corrin and Byleth were singled out to push games that would be relevant when the DLC was running, and FE lucked out both times with the release schedules - And for what it's worth, Sakurai admitted he was hesitant on adding Corrin as the sixth FE fighter until he decided he could spin something cool out of them.

Once you get beyond the fighters, Zelda outclasses FE in all respects. Zelda has nine stages, FE has four. Zelda has four ATs, FE has three. Zelda has eight items, Fe only has one. All things considered, FE actually doesn't have as much representation as the fighter count would suggest

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

The idea that Sakurai’s bias is to blame for any decision a fan doesn’t like feels outdated to me.

Like when a character isn’t in Marvel vs Capcom the response is usually “ok there was probably rights issues or they couldn’t work”. With Smash it’s always blamed on Sakurai directly. Even when he directly states he doesn’t make all the character choices.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I think the bigger thing with Zelda is that ,compared to Fire Emblem, which is a franchise that's constantly getting new protagonists with at least every other game while also finding ways to bring back older protagonists in the spotlight or at least still allowing them to return or be relevant in later games in the series, Zelda...only really has a handful of recurring major characters.

Compared to most other franchises in Smash like Mario, DK, Metroid, Kirby, and even a few third party series which have several major and recurring characters that have appeared in a vast numbers of game's, most potential Zelda newcomers who aren't a version of one of the Triforce wielders or who aren't named "Skull Kid", "Impa" or "vaati" have only appeared in one or two mainline games in the series, and even two out of the aforementioned three more recurring characters haven't appeared in any games in the series recently outside of spin-offs or remakes and releases. I'm not saying none of them have potential or shouldn't be added because they're one shots or not "important enough, but how often they actually show up in the series might be a factor in why Sakurai has either overlooked or excluded so many new characters from the Legend of Zelda who could make great additions to the roster.

I said this in the speculation thread yesterday, and many to her people have pointed it out many more times way before that, but the way Fire Emblem characters join or get cut from the roster is more similar to how Pokemon characters join the roster. You've got one or two mascots of the series who are insanely popular and almost always relevant, but then you've got a vast number of new characters to pick from with each new game in the series, and consequently, have to decide on which characters from each one to cut to make room for them and other characters, barring an exception like Ultimate.

 

[UserKev]

I honestly dread Zelda speculation now for this reason. Another factor I addressed is that Zelda fans don't stick behind a character that would have otherwise gotten them in. We would have potentially gotten Midna by now when you think about it. Now Sakurai has no reason to consider what Zelda fans think they want. The next best thing for Zelda fans is to remain supporting them like flies on a highly rated menu item 'Not in a literal sense. But they need to stick with supporting said character like a swarm NO MATTER HOW DIRE things may look. Maybe this can give them the Ness treatment/Ness Effect if done right.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

• Pac-Man - Has more Namco arcade references than actual Pac-Man moves. Probably because of the reason he was cut from Brawl. Sakurai still sees him as the yellow circle with a bite taken out of it.

There's a lot here I could debunk, but this is something that's bugged me for a long time as a Pac-Man fan, and I've already talked about a lot on this thread: Pac-Man is a nostalgia character. That is all he is, and, as a result of the unique circumstances of the 80s gaming industry evolving so fast, there was barely a span of time where he wasn't, even World was a nostalgia game. The following magazine scans come from 1990, 1991, 1994, and 1996 - before Pac-Man hit the big 20 year nostalgia-zone - and all use terms like "classic", "relive the phenomenon", "old friend", "is back", or "blast from the past".

I'll drag this back up as well, since it goes more in-depth.

IMO "Pac-Man uses too much from other games" is only really a valid criticism under the expectation that a Mappy or Galaga character could be playable themselves, which I very much doubt, as cool as it'd be - Pac-Man's whole identity is "the old gaming guy", and on the side "Namco's mascot", he isn't losing any individuality from referencing other games because that individuality was lost mere years after his debut, he was "The Gaming Guy" in the 80s, and he's "The Old Gaming Guy" now (that's something I've noticed in general, a lot of Pac-Man fans seem to be a bit resentful towards Pac-Man being used as a nostalgia character, despite the fact that well... he is, and was long before World) - it makes perfect sense for him to represent old Namco games because those are his two mainstream identities, a vintage character and the face of Namco.

Mappy and Galaga are the only games that "lose out" on individuality in Pac's moveset, if any kind of Smash reference is a "loss", but Galaga is point blank unambigiously part of the Pac-Man universe circa World (in fact most of the Pac-Man cast is just recycled characters from non-Pac-Man games, Pooka is part of Pac-Man's family for instance, the same could be said for one of Pac's closest parallels, Mickey Mouse, who would often interact with the early Disney movie cast like Dumbo and Jiminy Cricket in the 50s/60s), and while Mappy's in-universe connection to Pac-Man is a bit looser and mostly through games that could be described as crossovers, the games are joined at the hip, being connected not only by their time period but also their ragtime and 40s chase cartoon influences within both aesthetics and gameplay - it comes off less to me like "giving Mario a Master Sword because he's Nintendo's mascot" and more "giving Mario the Poltergust in PSASBR because Luigi has a snowball's chance in hell". If playable Mappy, Goro, or Galaga spaceship in Smash becomes a possibility some day for whatever reason, we'll talk, but for now, this is the best it gets for Namco's misc. stuff, and shifting to a World based design would mean less games are shining bright, games that are more iconic than World, in a place where they otherwise can't.

But they need to stick with supporting said character like a swarm NO MATTER HOW DIRE things may look.

This really exemplifies why listening to fan demand is so bad. Putting aside the anti-individual vibes (I don't think of myself as a Zelda fan, JUST a Tingle fan, what do I do?), we shouldn't have to be making battle strategies over a ****ing video game character cameo.

 

[Lenidem]

I honestly dread Zelda speculation now for this reason. Another factor I addressed is that Zelda fans don't stick behind a character that would have otherwise gotten them in. We would have potentially gotten Midna by now when you think about it. Now Sakurai has no reason to consider what Zelda fans think they want. The next best thing for Zelda fans is to remain supporting them like flies on a highly rated menu item 'Not in a literal sense. But they need to stick with supporting said character like a swarm NO MATTER HOW DIRE things may look. Maybe this can give them the Ness treatment/Ness Effect if done right.

The purpose is not to get any Zelda character, but a character that you like, which usually means from a series that you like. I really don't like Twilight Princess and I think Midna is a very shallow character, so I have no reason to "rally behind her", even though I love Zelda in general.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This was just gonna be about Wario, but I think I should say it as a whole, but with an emphasis on Wario: Smash fans have a strange habit of prioritising faithfulness that only truly functions diegetically as a reward, over uniqueness that can be appreciated in a vacuum.

You know what Pac-Man's moveset would be based on World?

You know what Wario's moveset would be based on Land?

Those moves work in the source material because they're tried and tested platforming abilities, functionally sound cliches supplemented by creative use cases, but when you've got double-digit playable characters with fully unique powers, in a game where every stage and opponent is designed so they can be fought by anyone and don't have unique techniques to exploit based on your powers, they are completely unremarkable and dull, both visually and functionally.

Wario's personality in Land is essentially just a Bluto/Peg-Leg Pete archetype, a big burly cartoon bully, which already exists in Smash multiple times over. As Wario is, he's the only character who falls into a Homer/Patrick/Heffer slob archetype, and still manages to maintain his signature meanness - how faithful he is to either Wario series is irrelevant, and I'd argue saying this is a "regression" moreso signifies that someone lacks a sense of humor than really cares about Wario. Luigi's "weirdness" is the only thing that makes him not green Mario, his non-existant character arc is just a result of games like Wonder, 3D World, e.t.c where his personally cannot be shown effectively using him as green Mario. Diddy Kong's "arc" also never existed, but even if it did, "little child chimpanzee" is a more endearing concept in a vacuum than "another brave video game hero and also he's a monkey for some reason" One-sentence or even one-word elevator pitches are important, and one of Sakurai's few merits as a fighting game designer is that he knows (knew?) this.

 

[fogbadge]

I honestly dread Zelda speculation now for this reason. Another factor I addressed is that Zelda fans don't stick behind a character that would have otherwise gotten them in. We would have potentially gotten Midna by now when you think about it. Now Sakurai has no reason to consider what Zelda fans think they want. The next best thing for Zelda fans is to remain supporting them like flies on a highly rated menu item 'Not in a literal sense. But they need to stick with supporting said character like a swarm NO MATTER HOW DIRE things may look. Maybe this can give them the Ness treatment/Ness Effect if done right.

I got to agree with the others rallying support one character for the sake of one character is not the way to do things. support who you like don’t force your support onto someone you don’t want to support

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

The purpose is not to get any Zelda character, but a character that you like, which usually means from a series that you like. I really don't like Twilight Princess and I think Midna is a very shallow character, so I have no reason to "rally behind her", even though I love Zelda in general.

I really wish people would do this for Kirby, as well.