Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Among Waddle Dees]

what do you mean by outclassed? fan demand or game appearances?

Fan demand.

 

[fogbadge]

Fan demand.

ah. Well toads been outclassed for ages sadly

 

[Laniv]

Speaking as someone who likes Assist Trophies, there is only one that I could say got a raw deal:

Bomberman

 

[fogbadge]

Byleths moveset is terrible. He would have been better off with something based off his signature class rather than the nonsense he got

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I feel Wario's moveset in Smash doesn't go far enough with the gross-out. I've always liked the concept of a fully gross-out-based fighter moveset, it's also why I was a bit disappointed when Ren & Stimpy were confirmed as a slapstick-themed tag team for NASB, because I really liked the idea of a fully gross-out-based Stimpy moveset. (Though I do find them to be really fun now and am glad they were made a duo - plus Oblina kinda fits that bill with her vomit move and gut-regurgitation)

 

[MasterCheef]

Palutena should have gotten a totally different & better F-air.

 

[Quillion]

I feel Wario's moveset in Smash doesn't go far enough with the gross-out. I've always liked the concept of a fully gross-out-based fighter moveset, it's also why I was a bit disappointed when Ren & Stimpy were confirmed as a slapstick-themed tag team for NASB, because I really liked the idea of a fully gross-out-based Stimpy moveset. (Though I do find them to be really fun now and am glad they were made a duo - plus Oblina kinda fits that bill with her vomit move and gut-regurgitation)

TBH, it's actually really weird that all of Smash's promotional and flavor text gives Wario's grossness so much spotlight, yet Wario's only really gross move is Waft. His moveset in both Brawl and Ultimate are fine enough portrayals of how brutal he is alongside a smattering of both Ware and Land elements (still wish he had his cargo throw at least).

 

[Opossum]

TBH, it's actually really weird that all of Smash's promotional and flavor text gives Wario's grossness so much spotlight, yet Wario's only really gross move is Waft. His moveset in both Brawl and Ultimate are fine enough portrayals of how brutal he is alongside a smattering of both Ware and Land elements (still wish he had his cargo throw at least).

You could make a case for Chomp as well, I feel like. The move, and especially the custom special options from Smash 4, has a lot of emphasis put on how gross it is to be chewed on by Wario Specifically, due to his diet, bad breath, and poor hygiene.

 

[Quillion]

You could make a case for Chomp as well, I feel like. The move, and especially the custom special options from Smash 4, has a lot of emphasis put on how gross it is to be chewed on by Wario Specifically, due to his diet, bad breath, and poor hygiene.

Eh, biting attacks can totally exist without any gross connotations.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Let's see...

• Kirby's current final smash is, if I may be brutal, hot garbage. Kirby has so much damn potential for a final smash, and then you go and give him another one of the swordy-slashy ones??? Seems like even Kirby can't escape the "too many swordfighters" stigma. If you ask me, Ultimate would've been a perfect game to give him a Star Allies-themed final smash, but I guess not then
• On a similar Kirby-related note...I would've liked World of Light better if you were allowed to pick your first fighter (at least out of the original 8) rather than be forced to start as Kirby. I get it, Kirby's powerful and beginner-friendly, but he's not gonna be everyone's style. Take me for instance, I got on much better with Yoshi when I first started the game.
• What I call "Delta Stages", where each stage is turned into a flat walk-off plane with no non-angel pits or hazards, would be super cool. But I do see why they haven't happened. Characters like Little Mac and Incineroar would be straight busted on them XD
• Viridi is a disgustingly slept-on character pick. Everyone wants Medusa and/or Hades, but Viridi has some of the most exciting moveset potential in my opinion, being able to summon her Forces of Nature, use weapons like the Viridi Palm or Claws, maybe even summon Phosphora if they're willing to un-assist trophy her? And oh, RESET BOMB FINAL SMASH.
• I'm glad Min Min is in, but if it were up to me, I would've picked Ribbon Girl for the ARMS rep. She's only my favorite video game character- (maybe tied with Viridi...but I'm just a sucker for sweet, peppy blondes)
• As someone who mains a FE character, I agree with the conception that it's less FE that's overrepped and more the FE swordsmen. Characters like Robin, Corrin and Byleth are less egregious examples of the standardized FE Smasher format. How do we remedy this? Hear me out: making Grima from Awakening a playable fighter. This probably won't happen, Grima would be an enormous pain to model for Smash and he's even too-bigger than Ridley was known for, but he'd be the perfect FE wildcard. He's neither anime nor a swordfighter, and has strong and terrifying moveset potential. And FE needs a villain rep anyway.

 

[Lenidem]

• As someone who mains a FE character, I agree with the conception that it's less FE that's overrepped and more the FE swordsmen.

Nah, it's Fire Emblem.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't really like references in movesets, I much prefer original concepts based on a character's personality. I also tend to prefer characters with little to no canonical powers.

 

[fogbadge]

(maybe tied with Viridi...but I'm just a sucker for sweet, peppy blondes)

you think viridi is sweet?

 

[Pink Yoshi]

you think viridi is sweet?

No lmao, I was referring to Ribbon Girl there. Don't worry, I'm not crazy (well, mostly XD)

 

[fogbadge]

I'm not crazy

really? i am

 

[Laniv]

I think both Toad and Captain Toad could and should be playable, as separate fighters.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Pontac and Graff (the guys who wrote for Sonic Colours) would unironically be my ideal pick to write a Smash story mode - they have experience with campy kids' comedy, lowering the stakes, and exaggerated slapstick, three things I'd ideally want from Smash (though obviously not slapstick of the Happy Tree Friend variety)... if it had to have cutscenes at all of course. I'd much rather take vs. CPU ad nauseum.

 

[Quillion]

I think both Toad and Captain Toad could and should be playable, as separate fighters.

That's an interesting view considering retainer Toad and Captain Toad are indeed separate characters.

But what would retainer Toad even do? If he were to be a "spin-off character", that could step on the toes of the spin-off king Waluigi. Sure, retainer Toad does have the benefit of being a main series character, but it's quite telling that Daisy, herself the spin-off princess, is a Peach echo by virtue of her being a stand-in for Peach in Daisy's one main series game.

 

[fogbadge]

That's an interesting view considering retainer Toad and Captain Toad are indeed separate characters.

But what would retainer Toad even do? If he were to be a "spin-off character", that could step on the toes of the spin-off king Waluigi. Sure, retainer Toad does have the benefit of being a main series character, but it's quite telling that Daisy, herself the spin-off princess, is a Peach echo by virtue of her being a stand-in for Peach in Daisy's one main series game.

well first of all toad has been playable in a multitude of main series games and has access to a number of moves and power ups untapped by the mario characters on the roster. secondly waluigi isnt the spin off king, he's been left out a lot

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

That's an interesting view considering retainer Toad and Captain Toad are indeed separate characters.

But what would retainer Toad even do? If he were to be a "spin-off character", that could step on the toes of the spin-off king Waluigi. Sure, retainer Toad does have the benefit of being a main series character, but it's quite telling that Daisy, herself the spin-off princess, is a Peach echo by virtue of her being a stand-in for Peach in Daisy's one main series game.

From what I see, Waluigi fans don't want a "spin off composite" moveset, they want a moveset that plays more into the "stylish but clumsy wannabe villain" aspect with primarily original concepts.

 

[Laniv]

That's an interesting view considering retainer Toad and Captain Toad are indeed separate characters.

But what would retainer Toad even do? If he were to be a "spin-off character", that could step on the toes of the spin-off king Waluigi. Sure, retainer Toad does have the benefit of being a main series character, but it's quite telling that Daisy, herself the spin-off princess, is a Peach echo by virtue of her being a stand-in for Peach in Daisy's one main series game.

Well, like fogbadge said and what I did a couple years back, Toad could be themed around Mario power ups, with a lean towards the many mushrooms used in the series.

 

[Quillion]

well first of all toad has been playable in a multitude of main series games and has access to a number of moves and power ups untapped by the mario characters on the roster. secondly waluigi isnt the spin off king, he's been left out a lot

I know retainer Toad was playable in SMB2 and 3DW (and with a design change to blue spots in the latter) but what else?

Also, I call Waluigi the spin-off king not because he's in all the spin-offs, but because he was born in the spin-offs and remains exclusive to those games.

From what I see, Waluigi fans don't want a "spin off composite" moveset, they want a moveset that plays more into the "stylish but clumsy wannabe villain" aspect with primarily original concepts.

It seems kinda mixed from what I can see. Some want him to embrace being Mr. Spin-off, some want something that is tailored to Smash.

I guess it all depends whether you think 64/Melee moveset design or Smash 4-on moveset design is better.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Personally I prefer having Captain Toad as default and his generic counterpart as an alt. They could absolutely have different movesets, but I'm not sure if they should.

 

[fogbadge]

I know retainer Toad was playable in SMB2 and 3DW (and with a design change to blue spots in the latter) but what else?

Also, I call Waluigi the spin-off king not because he's in all the spin-offs, but because he was born in the spin-offs and remains exclusive to those games.

well lets see there's super mario maker 2, nearly every spin off ever, wario's woods, that satella view game, arguably some of nsmb, fortune street, itdaki street, game and watch gallery 3, a mario themed version of excite bike, in very specific places in mario and sonic

 

[Quillion]

well lets see there's super mario maker 2, nearly every spin off ever, wario's woods, that satella view game, arguably some of nsmb, fortune street, itdaki street, game and watch gallery 3, a mario themed version of excite bike, in very specific places in mario and sonic

Is Mario Maker 2's Toad Peach's retainer or the NSMB Blue Toad?

Also...

well first of all toad has been playable in a multitude of main series games

Yes, I know Mario Maker is main series.

 

[fogbadge]

Is Mario Maker 2's Toad Peach's retainer or the NSMB Blue Toad?

same character

 

[Quillion]

same character

I know 3DW's Toad is Peach's retainer with a spot color change, but I thought the NSMB Toads are separate of him.

 

[fogbadge]

I know 3DW's Toad is Peach's retainer with a spot color change, but I thought the NSMB Toads are separate of him.

well in actual fact it’s never been stated one way or the for those ones

 

[Laniv]

Some people have really bad tunnel vision when it comes to potential Mario characters for smash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nah, it's Fire Emblem.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

I doubt it. If we got a reboot with the same amount of characters from Fire Emblem, but we got Dimitri, Claude and Edelgard I doubt people would complain as much.

 

[AlRex]

-Given that they no longer own Lara Croft, if Square-Enix were to get another character, it should be the Space Invaders.

-I do not want the game to be "Everyone Is Here!" forever, and in fact, do not find that to be sustainable if we are to have quality/interesting entries into the series in the future. I don't just want Super Smash Madden.

-I'm more fascinated by fan games and mods than the actual official games at this point. More power to the people, I guess.

-Smash should take itself very not seriously, though I'm unsure how to manifest that while still maintaining it as a fun, playable game. Definitely market it very goofily, and also make very goofy decisions, perhaps.

-These are uhhh the cuts I'd make for sure, minus Echoes. Dunno how popular or unpopular in totality these are: Falco or Wolf, Jigglypuff, Sheik [although I enjoy playing as her], both the extra Links, Ganondorf [in favor of pig Ganon with the trident], Roy, Zamus, maybe Pokemon Trainer [including Charizard], Lucas [although his game is good], Corrin, Ryu (and Ken) [just not a fan of Ryu, not terribly interesting to me, and Ken probably would have to go along with him], Bayonetta maybe [fun but I dunno], Incineroar, the Piranha Plant [sorry, Plant], Joker [I'd like Jack Frost, perhaps], Byleth, Min-Min...that is about 20 characters. Dear lord. I may even change my mind on some of these tomorrow.

I will probably think of more later, also very disorganized, yes.

 

[Quillion]

Some people have really bad tunnel vision when it comes to potential Mario characters for smash.

I feel that applies to every franchise in Smash tbh. Everyone wants to focus on the main character when secondaries can be much more interesting.

And it's not entirely the fans' fault too, Smash after Melee focused far too much on main characters, a trend that was only somewhat moved away from in Ultimate's FP2.

 

[Lenidem]

I doubt it. If we got a reboot with the same amount of characters from Fire Emblem, but we got Dimitri, Claude and Edelgard I doubt people would complain as much.

You probably know the fanbase better than I do. I can only speak for myself, but I strongly believe that Fire Emblem has way too many fighters compared to basically every other series, and it has nothing to do with the characters themselves.

I feel that applies to every franchise in Smash tbh. Everyone wants to focus on the main character when secondaries can be much more interesting.

And it's not entirely the fans' fault too, Smash after Melee focused far too much on main characters, a trend that was only somewhat moved away from in Ultimate's FP2.

I can't agree with that. I think it's totally normal to focus on the main characters. Secondaries come, well, second.

 

[fogbadge]

I feel that applies to every franchise in Smash tbh. Everyone wants to focus on the main character when secondaries can be much more interesting.

most people focus on a secondary character for xenoblade x

 

[Quillion]

I can't agree with that. I think it's totally normal to focus on the main characters. Secondaries come, well, second.

It's certainly totally normal, but it also gives us tunnel vision as Laniv put it. It's especially egregious since Nintendo's ongoing franchises as of late are making rather dull characters recurring such as Bandana Waddle Dee and Beedle, with Captain Toad almost in there with them.

most people focus on a secondary character for xenoblade x

I thought consensus was that Elma is THE main character of XCX. Your avatar, Cross, is a secondary. A POV character like Nick in The Great Gatsby.

 

[fogbadge]

It's certainly totally normal, but it also gives us tunnel vision as Laniv put it. It's especially egregious since Nintendo's ongoing franchises as of late are making rather dull characters recurring such as Bandana Waddle Dee and Beedle, with Captain Toad almost in there with them.



I thought consensus was that Elma is THE main character of XCX. Your avatar, Cross, is a secondary. A POV character like Nick in The Great Gatsby.

the general consensus isn’t always right

Mind you cross is a bit underdeveloped even by jrpg protagonist standards so that’s probably a good point

 

[Diddy Kong]

You probably know the fanbase better than I do. I can only speak for myself, but I strongly believe that Fire Emblem has way too many fighters compared to basically every other series, and it has nothing to do with the characters themselves.

It has many, but it's kind of forgivable to me cause of the amount of Echoes, and Roy being a semi clone. I wouldn't even know whom to cut outside of Corrin honestly. All I do know is, Three Houses did a great amount better than all other Fire Emblem games, and it's the first console Fire Emblem since Ike's saga on GameCube and Wii (both games sold poorly but Ike is considered as one of the most popular characters regardless, the games are now offered for insane prices online).

If we want a more diverse roster for Fire Emblem, I'd say, cut all but Marth, Ike and Lucina, rework Byleth so they use their sword alone and magic (so the loss of Robin isn't felt as much), and add Dimitri, Edelgard and Claude. Dimitri's weapon is the lance Byleth uses, Edelgard's weapon is the axe Byleth uses, Claude's weapon is the bow Byleth uses. That's 6 unique characters, and a Echo. Seems very reasonable.

 

[Quillion]

It has many, but it's kind of forgivable to me cause of the amount of Echoes, and Roy being a semi clone. I wouldn't even know whom to cut outside of Corrin honestly. All I do know is, Three Houses did a great amount better than all other Fire Emblem games, and it's the first console Fire Emblem since Ike's saga on GameCube and Wii (both games sold poorly but Ike is considered as one of the most popular characters regardless, the games are now offered for insane prices online).

If we want a more diverse roster for Fire Emblem, I'd say, cut all but Marth, Ike and Lucina, rework Byleth so they use their sword alone and magic (so the loss of Robin isn't felt as much), and add Dimitri, Edelgard and Claude. Dimitri's weapon is the lance Byleth uses, Edelgard's weapon is the axe Byleth uses, Claude's weapon is the bow Byleth uses. That's 6 unique characters, and a Echo. Seems very reasonable.

Feels like that'll run into the too much 3H characters problem tho.

the general consensus isn’t always right

Mind you cross is a bit underdeveloped even by jrpg protagonist standards so that’s probably a good point

It's not for no reason. XCX's story revolves around Elma while Cross is a POV character for the most part. It's not a new tactic to video games either: FF12 runs on a similar setup.

 

[Lenidem]

It has many, but it's kind of forgivable to me cause of the amount of Echoes, and Roy being a semi clone.

We actually agree on that. The fact that most of those characters are Echoes or semi-clones means that less work has been put into to them, so it's more "forgivable". If they were unique, it would actually be worse for me. (cough Pokémon cough)

 

[fogbadge]

It's not for no reason. XCX's story revolves around Elma while Cross is a POV character for the most part. It's not a new tactic to video games either: FF12 runs on a similar setup.

i know i have played the game

also dont mention ff12, i may puke