ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: *crickets*

L1N3R1D3R

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Good, the thread has had some activity from different people!
I'll say my thoughts on 4.0.0 and Hero now, and later today I'll update the thread for the next real day.

I thought 4.0.0 was overall a good patch. I found it weird that they nerfed Ivysaur so much while keeping other top tiers mostly the same, but at the same time they buffed Charizard, so I won't complain as a Trainer main. The stall and fall change is interesting and definitely something I'll have to keep in mind, though I'm not sure if it was a buff or a nerf. And of course, making multi-hit moves not kill when they fail to connect is a positive. But why did they nerf Little Mac jab 3 with no buffs :(

As for :ulthero:, I'm actually more terrified about his regular specials than his Command Selection spells. Yes, some down-B's are stupid and should be nerfed like Bounce and Magic Burst, but I honestly think Frizz and Zap and their variations as well as Kaswoosh are far scarier and more consistent threats. I think all variations of Frizz and Zap should consistently do less damage, because they're way too strong right now, and that Kaswoosh shouldn't be able to grab ledge as early so it can't lead to ridiculous low percent setups. Additionally, I think the chance of critical hits on smashes and the chance of insta-kill on Whack/Thwack is a little crazy right now, but I think Psyche Up is a little underpowered (its buff is weaker than Oomph's!). To counteract this, I would reduce the chance for criticals and insta-kills unless that move is used right after Psyche Up, in which case it would stay the same or even slightly increase. Additionally with how quickly he can regain his MP just by landing normals, MP cost isn't a huge concern unless you're basically at 0 MP, so I would reduce the rate at which normals refill MP. To compensate for all this, his normals could use some tuning up, especially D-tilt and B-air.


Remember to vote for the next character if you want! Currently there is a vote for :ultpikachu:and a vote for :ultroy:.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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Nerf if not ban the Hero. I'm not going to talk about his stupid RNG because that's a whole different topic (and the reason why I feel he should be banned). His side special and neutral special should both receive serious nerfs to their knockback, damage, and speed. They're incredibly fast moves that can kill super early from almost anywhere. And his aerials are FINE. People say their slow speed is the trade off to having broken specials but in reality they're pretty good as far as aerials go.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

We are now officially in 4.0.0 mode.


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultpikachu:, so it will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Pikachu's poll here: https://forms.gle/k92MsNohycUCMXiy8
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Pikachu and how you would change it.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Mewtwo's results from before the break: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...hLP0oMgVbxiHq7b3QxwQIVkR65af8kQ/viewanalytics

4.0.0/Hero results from the break: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...zCym8r7w90qiVys0y27SabiRfykR3Hw/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultpikachu: has kinda slid under the radar while Pichu got the nerf hammer. I still think it's an incredibly strong top tier character, and in my opinion it's too strong. Here's how I would nerf it:
  • Increase the overall lag of B-air. This move on its own can lead to deep edgeguards starting from anywhere on stage. I'm fine with reducing the landing lag to compensate, because it is kinda high right now.
  • Make the spike hitbox of Thunder not kill the opponent early off the blast zone. A gimmick that Pikachu and Pichu players alike use is to spike people with it while they're near the bottom blast zone, leading to their opponents dying above them before they're saved by Thunder 2. It's a very jank way to take a really early stock, and it should be patched out.
  • While we're on the topic, why does Pikachu kill so early in this game? In the last game its problems were weight and kill power, but in this game the only problem I know of is weight, which is irrelevant when you win neutral and dominate advantage state. If it were up to me, I would revert the buffs to D-smash, F-air, and Thunder 2 so he doesn't have plentiful strong kill options.
  • I might also tone down the active frames of F-smash so it doesn't cover everything.
I would also give Pichu similar nerfs to this, except the nerfs to B-air and F-smash would instead be to their kill power.


Voting for our boy :ultroy: .
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

We're doing this again? I thought the hiatus would attract more people to stay...


Nobody else voted or talked, so my vote for :ultroy: wins, and he will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Roy's poll here: https://forms.gle/jiFdEywjiMEDrpX2A
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Roy and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultchrom: :ultken: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Pikachu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...XgwTnD-W3o7V6aDJ7CRetN_N5fXqVXw/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultroy: is one of the best designed rushdown characters I've seen. Despite wielding a sword, it's clear that he needs to get in to get high damage. I always found it weird that his sweetspot is way more lenient than Marth's, but that's more of a Marth problem. Despite that, I do want to tone down the power of a couple of his moves, and buff a couple other moves.
  • Sweetspot B-air and sweetspot forward Double Edge Dance 4 are a little too strong for how easily you can land them.
  • On the contrary, upward Double Edge Dance 4 and aerial Blazer are kinda weak right now and could use buffs.


Voting for my Smash 4 main but now just a casual pick, :ultlucas:.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


This time nobody else even liked posts or responded to the poll.
What do I have to do to get people who were active here before to come back?
If this happens again today, I'm going to stop running this thread unless interest for it builds up again.



Anyway, yet again nobody else voted or talked, so my vote for :ultlucas: wins, and he will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Lucas's poll here: https://forms.gle/x7JgfVEbTCEcLG5SA
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Lucas and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultchrom: :ultken: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Roy's result (just me): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...WgXc1wu9i8Mf4beIM_1evO0rUXAhLEg/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultlucas: is technically a good character in this game, but I just can't play him anymore. Rather than being a creative rushdown type like in Smash 4, he turned into a zoning and spacing type character due to nerfs to his combo game but buffs to his projectiles. And honestly, I don't like those changes from a personal level and a competitive level. While I'm still familiar enough with his moveset to play him casually, the removal of his combo game makes all my effort in Smash 4 meaningless. On the contrary, people are complaining about PK Freeze and rightly so. Here's how I would change him:
  • Reduce the end lag of D-throw. It was enough of a nerf to increase its damage and knockback since he already has three other kill throws, two of which got buffed from Smash 4, but they didn't have to completely neuter it. This change would open up a lot of combos, while hopefully not giving him an easy kill confirm because of the new knockback. If an 11% combo throw is too much, you could reduce the damage, and if that gives him his old combos back, you could then increase the knockback to compensate. He just needs something to do when he gets up close.
  • PK Freeze is admittedly a little silly with how early it kills. I would reduce its hit stun so it doesn't kill as early, but still does good damage.


If this thread is still alive tomorrow, my vote goes to the connoisseur of garlic, :ultwario:.
 
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Aw man, I missed Roy.

If I voted, I would definitely have voted Roy as being high tier. Despite that, I think Roy is an example of a well-balanced character. In an ideal world, everyone would be about as good as he is.

As far as changes, I have only two, one buff and one nerf. The buff is a knockback increase on Blazer’s final hit and the nerf is a knockback decrease on DED’s final forward hit.

As for Lucas, I think he’s fine, but I wouldn’t mind if PK Freeze wasn’t the way that it is.

I vote Chrom.
 

BlackInk

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Good, the thread has had some activity from different people!
I'll say my thoughts on 4.0.0 and Hero now, and later today I'll update the thread for the next real day.

I thought 4.0.0 was overall a good patch. I found it weird that they nerfed Ivysaur so much while keeping other top tiers mostly the same
Gee, I wonder if it’s because they don’t have unintended, ridiculously early kills or two other characters to switch from.

Better nerf greninja.
 

BlackInk

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Messages
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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


This time nobody else even liked posts or responded to the poll.
What do I have to do to get people who were active here before to come back?
If this happens again today, I'm going to stop running this thread unless interest for it builds up again.



Anyway, yet again nobody else voted or talked, so my vote for :ultlucas: wins, and he will be discussed today.

Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Lucas's poll here: https://forms.gle/x7JgfVEbTCEcLG5SA
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Lucas and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultchrom: :ultken: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Roy's result (just me): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...WgXc1wu9i8Mf4beIM_1evO0rUXAhLEg/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultlucas: is technically a good character in this game, but I just can't play him anymore. Rather than being a creative rushdown type like in Smash 4, he turned into a zoning and spacing type character due to nerfs to his combo game but buffs to his projectiles. And honestly, I don't like those changes from a personal level and a competitive level. While I'm still familiar enough with his moveset to play him casually, the removal of his combo game makes all my effort in Smash 4 meaningless. On the contrary, people are complaining about PK Freeze and rightly so. Here's how I would change him:
  • Reduce the end lag of D-throw. It was enough of a nerf to increase its damage and knockback since he already has three other kill throws, two of which got buffed from Smash 4, but they didn't have to completely neuter it. This change would open up a lot of combos, while hopefully not giving him an easy kill confirm because of the new knockback. If an 11% combo throw is too much, you could reduce the damage, and if that gives him his old combos back, you could then increase the knockback to compensate. He just needs something to do when he gets up close.
  • PK Freeze is admittedly a little silly with how early it kills. I would reduce its hit stun so it doesn't kill as early, but still does good damage.


If this thread is still alive tomorrow, my vote goes to the connoisseur of garlic, :ultwario:.
Pk freeze is pretty slow and hard to land. It’ll be dumb if it doesn’t have that early kill reward when Roy and caption falcon’s knee are a thing. (Although the former needs a up-b buff because it can’t grab the ledge for some stupid reason.)
 
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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


This time nobody else even liked posts or responded to the poll.
What do I have to do to get people who were active here before to come back?
If this happens again today, I'm going to stop running this thread unless interest for it builds up again.
If this thread is still alive tomorrow, my vote goes to the connoisseur of garlic, :ultwario:.
Have you considered advertising this thread?
Like maybe say on the original Sm4sh one or competitive character thread?
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Have you considered advertising this thread?
Like maybe say on the original Sm4sh one or competitive character thread?
The first thread has been dead for almost two years and is part of the Smash 4 one. That's the one I based this thread off, but I don't think anyone's checking that thread anymore. The other thread, on the other hand, might have potential, though I'm worried about breaking the rules of that thread.

Also, if anyone has posted here but not responded to the poll for Lucas, please do so here! https://forms.gle/x7JgfVEbTCEcLG5SA
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
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I never felt that Ridley was as bad as some say he is, but I suppose that it wouldn’t hurt to buff him. If this does happen, though, I think his neutral air and Space Pirate Rush should be toned down for the sake of fairness.

I vote Belmont.
Nah, those are fine. Space Pirate Rush leaves Ridley open if he misses.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Thank you all for the activity in the past day!


Somone brought to my attention the possibility of advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
However, I'm concerned that doing so might break the rules of that thread, as it seems to be much stricter than this thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking any rules, please message me privately and let me know.



Anyway, the randomizer chose :ultchrom:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Chrom's poll here: https://forms.gle/qvHRUhuTWcuVhHnC8
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Chrom and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion. Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultken: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Lucas's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...OplaQcIFKXCvsSvNrNOsouSxP7wTBtg/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultchrom: has seen quite good results from the likes of Rivers (formerly Shoyo James) and Mr. R, making him a clear threat in the meta. And with Roy's great moveset and no sourspots, it's easy to see why that is. Despite a weaker recovery and a lack of extreme kill power, he's still got great frame data with solid damage, making his pressure and advantage state one of the best in the game. I do feel like he could use some tweaks around the edges, though:
  • I think his B-air is a little bit too good right now. I would tone down the knockback of that move.
  • On the contrary, the upward final hit of Double Edge Dance is a little weak, which is also the case for Marth, Lucina, and Roy. For all these characters I would buff the knockback of this so that it has some use over the forward final hit.

Voting for :ultwario:, the thiccest character in Smash.
 
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BlackInk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
169
TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Thank you all for the activity in the past day!


Somone brought to my attention the possibility of advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
However, I'm concerned that doing so might break the rules of that thread, as it seems to be much stricter than this thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking any rules, please message me privately and let me know.



Anyway, the randomizer chose :ultchrom:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Chrom's poll here: https://forms.gle/qvHRUhuTWcuVhHnC8
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Chrom and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion. Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultken: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Lucas's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...OplaQcIFKXCvsSvNrNOsouSxP7wTBtg/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultchrom: has seen quite good results from the likes of Rivers (formerly Shoyo James) and Mr. R, making him a clear threat in the meta. And with Roy's great moveset and no sourspots, it's easy to see why that is. Despite a weaker recovery and a lack of extreme kill power, he's still got great frame data with solid damage, making his pressure and advantage state one of the best in the game. I do feel like he could use some tweaks around the edges, though:
  • I think his B-air is a little bit too good right now. I would tone down the knockback of that move.
  • On the contrary, the upward final hit of Double Edge Dance is a little weak, which is also the case for Marth, Lucina, and Roy. For all these characters I would buff the knockback of this so that it has some use over the forward final hit.

Voting for :ultwario:, the thiccest character in Smash.
Doesn’t Chrom have a turnaround backair?
 
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I remember when Chrom looked like the second coming of Cloud at launch. There was a point where I believed he could have been the best in the game. Obviously, that isn’t the case now, but it’s pretty much undeniable that Chrom is still an extremely privileged character because someone decided that giving a character Roy’s moveset without the one thing that balances it wouldn’t lead to any problems.

The Chrom main in me would like it very much if Aether could sweetspot ledges to make his recovery not dog****, but the reasonable part of me that doesn’t want to see the world burn knows that this probably isn’t a good idea. If this did happen, however, I would decrease the knockback or range of forward tilt because that move is just absurd. It’s got the speed of a tilt, the strength of a weak smash attack, and it’s on a sword character with the speed of Chrom. That’s just a little too much.

Somehow, I haven’t voted for Mario yet, so I’ll do that.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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I might be late updating the thread today, as I have a show to attend.

In the meantime, please remember to vote for characters in this thread, and respond to the poll about Chrom here!
https://forms.gle/qvHRUhuTWcuVhHnC8

(How many times do I have to remind people to do it when they see my update post?)

Doesn’t Chrom have a turnaround backair?
I mean yeah, everyone does. What's your point?

He meant a B-air that turns him around. That's true, but jab into B-air still works and kills quite early. Plus, his F-air is also great, so that doesn't harm him much.
 
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ZeroSoul

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Man, I just realized how long it's been since the first thread, time flies. Anyway, I feel Chrom's somewhere around the upper-half of high tier, he's got incredible strengths but he's also held back by that iffy disadvantage state. If his recovery wasn't so exploitable (it's not as bad as some claim but it's not exactly great either) I think he could have been top tier. Overall I think he's good as is, I wouldn't change him at all. Pretty much all of his significantly lopsided matchups should be fixed by buffing other characters imo.

I'll vote for :ultwario:.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.



Anyway, :ultwario: got the most votes, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Wario's poll here: https://forms.gle/uPmBSsRwgMatGaLFA
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Wario and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion. Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultken: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


Chrom's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...DzlwylKZt7EsqP3NcyVR-iAblWUmHzQ/viewanalytics


=========================================================


:ultwario: is probably the most viable example of a character who is amazing in advantage but lackluster in disadvantage. When he hits you with one of his combo starters, which are more numerous and advantageous in this game, you're in for a lot of damage and potentially early death. However, if you hit him, his bad escape options and gimpable recovery, which was made worse in this game because of the delay for Bike being usable again, become very notable. That's how Glutonny manage to get to winners finals at EVO, but then got stopped dead in his tracks by Tweek and MKLeo. It's clear that his strengths are more prevalent, though, as there were two other Warios in top 16 of the same tournament, so he's likely still high or top tier. I think he's fine, but if I had to change him, here's what I would do:
  • Reduce end lag of jab 1, and increase knockback of jab 2. Compared to his other grounded options, this one is really bad and doesn't have any use.
  • Similarly, now that Chomp is more powerful and heals himself, there's little reason to use his nerfed F-throw anymore. I would increase its damage partially so that it has more utility.
  • I also don't get why his quarter Waft is pretty much useless, especially in comparison to half and full Waft. I would reduce its end lag.
  • In exchange for those buffs, I would somewhat reduce the knockback of half Waft and full Waft so they're not quite as ridiculous.

Voting for :ultmetaknight:, the circular swordsman.
 

MetaWeegee

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Messages
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None of your ****ing buisness
:ultwario: is fine to me, but if I needed to give him some changes, I'd just do one; I'd nerf the knockback of aerial Waft a bit so it isn't quite as stupid a kill option, but I'd leave the grounded version untouched so that it remains a powerful punishing tool. I vote :ultlink:.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultmetaknight:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Meta Knight's poll here: https://forms.gle/jy8zNxQ75Tbike4N9
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Meta Knight and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion. Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultken: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Wario's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...kud7mBjQLoH-TZucdMxCTE0WRqWquUw/viewanalytics


Yet again, someone who voted for a character didn't share their thoughts at all about them, and nobody else filled out the poll.
If you're voting for a character, be ready to discuss them the next day in case they win the vote!
And please respond to the poll if you're posting in this thread! It doesn't take much time, and it's completely anonymous.


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


I remember when people were worrying about :ultmetaknight: being broken again before the game came out. And then they realized that none of his ridiculous stuff worked anymore and he does way less damage than the rest of the cast, and he was immediately sent to the lower side of the tier list. He can still do some cheese, but it's extremely specific and only serves to mitigate his extreme lack of power otherwise. Here's how I would buff him:
  • Slightly increase damage of all normals. For how much effort he has to put into reading where his opponent chooses to DI, he just doesn't get enough reward out of it, especially with his 5% base damage U-air. Even after taking the 1v1 multiplier into mind, his only non-smash attack normal that does over 10% is the sweetspot of N-air, which is sad.
  • Reduce the end lag and landing lag of Mach Tornado. I'm cool with its new purpose, but it remains a really unsafe move if it whiffs, and considering how much they buffed Drill Rush it's sad that this move got left behind.
  • Make sure that Dimensional Cape's Attack actually swings in the direction of his opponent in a 1v1. They tried to do this, but it isn't consistent.

Voting for the Hero of Bouncing Off Bokoblins, :ultlink:.
 
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Why am I not getting notifications for this thread?


Anyhoo, MK is average as average can get IMO.
Rarely see him in tournament, so can't say what I'd change about him at the moment.

I vote for :ultkrool:
 

Dragean

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 7, 2019
Messages
3
I don’t know enough about Meta Knight to offer any educated changes. That being said, given his low reach I think he should deal a little more damage all around.

I vote for my main guy :ultlink:
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Just a warning, for the next few days this thread will be updated an hour later than normal. Sorry for the inconvenience!

Why am I not getting notifications for this thread?
Are you "watching" the thread? If you are and it's just not working, you can just remind yourself to check this daily, because I will update it daily barring unusual circumstances.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


:ultlink: received the most votes, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Link's poll here: https://forms.gle/nzCkVgNJtEZCBk6Y9
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Link and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultken: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Meta Knight's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...XfRFObJ9o8jwcSLZXO5d-HbJWiC6c8g/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultlink: is a very technical character in this game now that he has Remote Bombs. And right after release he seemed extremely good with top reps of Salem and MKLeo's secondary. He's kinda slid off ever since, but I still think he's at worst in upper mid tier, and likely high tier. There is one silly aspect about him that I would nerf, but also a couple of things I would buff to compensate:
  • (Nerf) The backwards scooping hitboxes of aerial Spin Attack are a little crazy, and should be made smaller.
  • (Buff) However, U-tilt can whiff up close, and his F-throw and B-throw got damage nerfs for no real reason. All of those moves should be fixed.

Voting for McDonald's' less successful ad campaign, :ultlittlemac:.
 
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In a surprising twist considering his long history of being ****, I actually think Link is in a perfectly reasonable spot in Ultimate. I wouldn’t change him.

I vote Mario.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultmario:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Mario's poll here: https://forms.gle/TNYnSezgafvc6LB88
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Mario and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultken: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultluigi: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Link's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...cDpXgvv24SLwR9peCcy8VFT8fxj8pOQ/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultmario: looked pretty mediocre at the start of this game's lifespan, but has progressively gotten more play as people realized that he really only lost his U-tilt combos at 0% and his early rage kills with Super Jump Punch. Dark Wizzy, ANTi, and others are showing that Mario still has a solid place in the meta game, and he's probably high tier. At this stage I wouldn't change anything about him, he seems pretty fine as is.


Voting for :ultlittlemac:, a low tier character who got nerfed in the last patch because Nintendo.
 

MacSmitty

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I say just buff the range of the u-tilt to the way it was before. I'm cool with the loss of the combos, but the range nerf was unnecessary. Both Pac-Man's and Mario's Up-Tilts don't work the way you'd expect them to, and it's weird.
 
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I don’t think anyone will argue that Mario is anything less than solid, but the hitbox nerf to his up tilt needs to be reverted. It makes no sense whatsoever how you can be inside someone’s character model and still have up tilt whiff.

I vote Jigglypuff.
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultlittlemac:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Little Mac's poll here: https://forms.gle/jNmcqdWP3YxSyPUk7
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Little Mac and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultken: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultluigi: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Mario's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...nqZEERMjxRlXZra1rmty0XMPN_ix2ow/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultlittlemac: is a pitiful character in this game. While he got some buffs from Smash 4 and from earlier patches of Ultimate, the nerfs he got from Smash 4 on top of how mediocre he already was in that game ultimately won out and push him to the bottom of the tier list. And just to spite him, patch 4.0.0 removed his less laggy manual-input jab 3, which was easily the most meaningful buff he got in Ultimate, with no compensation. Plus, unlike some other low tiers, he doesn't even have much representation to speak of. He desperately needs fixing:
  • Increase air acceleration. His air game shouldn't be so bad that he can't even avoid things in the air.
  • Reduce end lag of jab 3 (both versions) to the level it was in patch 3.1.0. He needs good combo starters to stand a chance. Speaking of which:
  • Revert the nerfs to U-tilt and D-tilt from Smash 4. There's no reason he needed nerfs to these moves, as they weren't spammy or anything.
  • Every aerial should either have less landing lag or a larger autocancel window. Them being slow and weak is fine for his design, but the fact that he can't even transition from air to ground very well really hurts him.
  • Decrease startup of Straight Lunge. Despite the super armor, it's still a really bad move because it's so easy to react to it.
  • Increase the amount of time he can't lose KO Punch after getting it, or put it on a timer. His "meter buff" is the easiest to counterplay currently.
  • Increase the power of aerial KO Punch. I understand why it's not as powerful as the grounded version, but it shouldn't be that much weaker!
  • Let him use Jolt Haymaker again if he is hit after using it in the air. A simple buff to his recovery that only makes sense.
  • Decrease the startup of Slip Counter's hitbox. Considering how much he moves during the counter, it can easily whiff.

Voting for :ultzss:, the waifu of the pajama warrior Marss.
 
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I’m almost certain the reason why Mac is the way he is is because the balance team knew that they pretty much backed themselves into a corner with this terribly designed character. Considering that Mac boasts an uncontested ground game, all it would really take is a little lack of foresight on one buff to break him. I think the best course of action would be to redesign him to where his ground game isn’t as oppressive but his everything else isn’t as bad. Not a normalization to the point where he no longer has an identity, but just so he can have a shot at being a decently balanced character.
 
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In the minority with this one, Mac has a great idea and it pushes the limits of what a Smash character can do at any level.

Execution wise, yeah they screw the pooch on this one. It's clear they weren't keen on making the character fly after all the nerfs, no matter what he got in return. Quick normals, armored smash attacks and K.O Punch clearly weren't enough to make up for pitiful aerials, a bottom 5 recovery and the worst grab game in Ultimate. (I guess they forgot that decent grabs and throws are required for good ground coverage)

Not even Dash Canceled Grounded Attacks could save him

B = buff
N= nerf

Here's my idea of a Mac redesign and bringing him back up:

B = All nerfs from Sm4sh and 4.0.0 were reverted (Jab combo, Up-Tilt, D-Tilt, both ver's of Side-B, etc...) while keeping all their buffs.

B = Air Dodge goes the same distance as everyone else's.

B = Full Hop and Double Jump go a tad higher.

N = All Smash Attacks now have percent armor (Up to 12%), but have more active frames.

B = All throws and pummel do more damage.

B = B-Throw has more KGB, now killing around the same time as Banjo's B-Throw.

B = Neutral-B percent armor now takes up to 12% from 6%.

N = Grounded K.O Punch is no longer unblockable and has less KGB, killing about 20% later.

B = Both ver's of K.O Punch have much less endlag, a ton of Shield Damage and Aerial ver has more KGB giving it some decent kill power.

B = K.O Meter now slowly builds up over time like WAFT & Arsene. (Rate: 1 Minute and 30 seconds = Full Charge) This is my attempt to try and deal with platform camping.

B = All Aerials are Short-Hop Auto-Cancelable and have no more then 10 frames of landing lag.
 
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NerFox

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Messages
37
Wouldn’t Little Mac be a bit ridiculous at lower level play with all those buffs though? I feel like he’s just a difficult character to balance in general.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Wouldn’t Little Mac be a bit ridiculous at lower level play with all those buffs though? I feel like he’s just a difficult character to balance in general.
At least for my changes, I don't touch his smash attacks at all, which are the most overwhelming things he has at lower levels. My fixes help him be better when mastered, but low level play probably wouldn't notice these changes because they're made to weaker moves. If they don't really notice changes between Smash games (which most casual players don't), I doubt they would notice these changes.

Also, if you've visited this thread today but haven't responded to the poll for Little Mac, please do so here! https://forms.gle/jNmcqdWP3YxSyPUk7
 
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MetaWeegee

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Sep 22, 2018
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None of your ****ing buisness
:ultmario:: I wouldn't do much for him. Just make his strength not below average (increase Nair damage to 12% clean from 8% and late damage to 8%. Why is this move so f**king weak? Other moves made stronger are down smash (2% more on both sides) and jab (pre Smash 4 damage values). And undo up tilt nerf while you're at it. It's range sucks **** now.

:ultlink:: I am disgusted that they looked at him and decided "Yeh, let's make his fastest ground move frame 8." Like, just make his jab frame 5 or something.

And the man of the hour, :ultlittlemac:. He needs help, simple as that. One thing I'm surprised nobody points out is how bad his grab game is. Like, he's supposed to be amazing on the ground, but no one considers giving him top tier grabs to truly make his ground game top tier. Like, make both his forward AND back throws kill moves, make up throw a great combo starter/kill move at high percents, and down throw a solid combo starter, and bam, great grab game.

Also, buff ground game further. Completely undo every change to up tilt and down tilt (except down tilt's new range, keep that). And give him back his jab combos. (I am pissed they removed this. Words cannot describe the incomptency behind this change) Make down smash cause tumble at low percents (but alter knockback values so it only kills a little earlier). Give Straight Lunge higher armor resistance (10%) so it can tank ledge attacks again (and make the armor scale with the 1V1 multiplier while we're at it) and reduce the endlag of the uncharged version so it can set up low percent followups (like down tilt). Make Jolt Haymaker activate a bit faster and hug closer to the ground. Maybe some other stuff I don't feel like thinking of right this moment.

And wham, viable Mac without changing his air game.

Has :ultjoker: been talked about already? If not, I'll go with, IDK, :ultsonic:
 
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And the man of the hour, :ultlittlemac:. He needs help, simple as that. One thing I'm surprised nobody points out is how bad his grab game is.
I did point it out.

Execution wise, yeah they screw the pooch on this one. It's clear they weren't keen on making the character fly after all the nerfs, no matter what he got in return. Quick normals, armored smash attacks and K.O Punch clearly weren't enough to make up for pitiful aerials, a bottom 5 recovery and the worst grab game in Ultimate. (I guess they forgot that decent grabs and throws are required for good ground coverage)
 
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Honestly, I just skimmed over the other posts. I am le stupid, XD
Boxers have their fingers covered. Grabbing isn't going to be that great. And besides, a lot of characters have awful grabs. Ness is a great example.

I just think Little Mac needs an overhaul on his moveset. I think the concept of K.O. Punch should be reserved for Final Smash instead. It's just a miniature Final Smash, just like Cloud's Limit Charge. It seems Sakurai & Co. are trying to push the envelope to see what players think and if they'll ever say, "Enough!" I suppose that's happened with Hero, though. Anyway, giving Little Mac ridiculous super armor to compensate for his poor aerial game isn't even what I'd consider good execution for balancing. Quite frankly, if Little Mac doesn't have a moveset overhaul, I'd just say relegate him to his former status: assist trophy.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Despite a lot of discussion here and a lot of responses to the poll, we still only got two votes for today's character.
Please remember to put a vote at the end of your posts! See point 3 below.


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultsonic:, so he will be discussed today.
( MetaWeegee MetaWeegee Yes, Joker was already discussed. Below point 3 you can see the assortment of remaining characters yet to be discussed.)


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Sonic's poll here: https://forms.gle/7qYpevFbnatuGR476
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Sonic and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultken: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultluigi: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: :ultpichu: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Little Mac's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Ho8FnyG-q9N9eKxYjzNCh_JYqk7le3w/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


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:ultsonic: was not only a serious threat but also not fun to watch or play against, so it would make sense that he'd get toned down. Despite him falling to mid-low tier, however, I'd rather not buff him too much because I don't want another Smash 4 Sonic. Here's what I would improve about him:
  • Despite U-tilt coming out a bit faster and linking better, they didn't change its end lag at all, completely removing its combo potential. It wasn't made any stronger to be a kill move, so his improved D-tilt is strictly better. Make this move either combo or kill better.
  • I don't know why they thought to make U-air connect worse, when its real problem in Smash 4 was its knockback. I would make it connect better.
  • Spin Dash should connect more reliably. They completely neutered this move in Ultimate, and I would prefer if it had some use.

Voting for :ultjigglypuff:, truly the thiccest girl in Smash. (I mean, can you get any thiccer than a circle?)
 
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