ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: *crickets*

[BlackInk]

You summed it up perfectly.
He's a fun as heck character to watch who really needs a bigger player-base.

Sorry to say, but I'm still for nerfing the better echo over buffing the original because F**************** Flaming Upper-cut.
I don't care, that move is stupid broken and no one deserves something that good.

I vote for mainly just to see why opinions of him are dropping.

Nah, Ken is pretty risky as a character, is limited by his turning mechanic, and doesn’t have a strong neutral. His insane punishes are his exchanges for these weaknesses.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I don’t care what’s intended when I see Inking’s up-air, down-air, up-tilt, and it’s poor-designed ink mechanic or Captain Falcon’s terrible changes to this game from smash 4.

Plus, the Dedede mains that use this unintended mechanic are just making this character more interesting, fun, and viable. They are no different from the Ice Climbers when it comes to unintended exploits. So let them have their unique tools.

I guess that's pretty fair. Besides people are once again calling Dedede a low tier so it's not like the mechanic is broken or anything.

 

[FoolishHero]

Nah, Ken is pretty risky as a character, is limited by his turning mechanic, and doesn’t have a strong neutral. His insane punishes are his exchanges for these weaknesses.

It’s immediately apparent that none of you are aware of the strengths of auto turnaround or really the strengths of the Shotos.

Auto turnaround is not a weakness as people whined about before at launch. Having auto turnaround completely invalidates the ability to roll in or cross up against the Shotos. Many top players have complained about auto turnaround as of late actually. In addition, the Shoto’s access to Bair isn’t hindered at all by auto turnaround. Simply put, the Shotos lost nothing and gained so much pressure from auto turnaround.

Ken doesn’t invalidate Ryu. Unlike the other echoes, Ken and Ryu have substantial differences that give them distinct niches. Ryu has a more active neutral game due to the strength and variability of his fireballs. This gives him a better MU against important characters like Snake and Olimar. Ken on the other hand makes up for when Ryu’s fireballs are ineffective with his fantastic punish game.

I can agree with the point that their neutral isn’t fantastic though. This is because their kit has great reactive tools like anti airs. However, because they have good options when reacting to an opponent’s strategy, it isn’t awful either.

Also, have you guys seen Sandstorm’s recent performance? He primarily plays Ryu and sent several top players like Myran and Esam into losers at LTC. Keep in mind that Smash is his darn side game.

PSA EDIT: If you DI Ken and Ryu’s Shoryu’s properly, Ryu’s should kill earlier. The correct way to DI Ken’s Shoryu is down and slightly away while Ryu’s is 90 degrees away. This will give you 20 to 30% more survivability.

 

[BlackInk]

It’s immediately apparent that none of you are aware of the strengths of auto turnaround or really the strengths of the Shotos.

Auto turnaround is not a weakness as people whined about before at launch. Having auto turnaround completely invalidates the ability to roll in or cross up against the Shotos. Many top players have complained about auto turnaround as of late actually. In addition, the Shoto’s access to Bair isn’t hindered at all by auto turnaround. Simply put, the Shotos lost nothing and gained so much pressure from auto turnaround.

Ken doesn’t invalidate Ryu. Unlike the other echoes, Ken and Ryu have substantial differences that give them distinct niches. Ryu has a more active neutral game due to the strength and variability of his fireballs. This gives him a better MU against important characters like Snake and Olimar. Ken on the other hand makes up for when Ryu’s fireballs are ineffective with his fantastic punish game.

I can agree with the point that their neutral isn’t fantastic though. This is because their kit has great reactive tools like anti airs. However, because they have good options when reacting to an opponent’s strategy, it isn’t awful either.

Also, have you guys seen Sandstorm’s recent performance? He primarily plays Ryu and sent several top players like Myran and Esam into losers at LTC. Keep in mind that Smash is his darn side game.

I will say that their stuff is a double-edge sword (in a good way). Their turn around mechanic became more viable and less problematic than before because they finally got their kits fixed in the 3.1 update. However, this does make me wish that they can rework other characters to make their gimmicks actually useful or viable in their kits.

 

[FoolishHero]

King Dedede's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...RJT3hyn47cmjPSzudIqEnwT2xsEyhWw/viewanalytics


The randomizer picked , so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/ZKUPSWUCXpG3YBuz7

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who may or may not be sure they can without Ryu telling them: (/) (/) [--] (/) (/)

Final reminder to discuss the current character and cast your character vote in this thread! Those questions are no longer in the poll!



is such a strange character. At launch he was better than Ken but still not very good, and now the patches have put him in a similar scenario to Marth where he is good but entirely outclassed by Ken. I won't say I know too much about Ryu, but here's how I would touch him up to make him comparable to Ken competitively:

• I would restore N-air's combo ability from Smash 4. Ken gets this luxury because of its superior range and reduced end lag, so maybe Ryu's could do more damage but have the knockback reduced to make it more potent, as well as also having less end lag.
• While Ryu's Tatsumaki has always been stronger than Ken's, the fact that Ken's is multi-hit and has lower end lag to make cross-ups an followups more threatening has always made it superior. While I would personally prefer nerfing Ken's version to balance the two out, realistically I understand how hard it is to play these characters, so I'll just buff Ryu. I would make his less laggy so that the trade-off is purely strength versus combos.
• For some reason Ken's Shoryuken, whether it was the medium version pre-patch or the strong multi-hit version post-patch, has always been stronger than Ryu's single-hit Shoryuken with a small sweetspot. Just like with Tatsumaki, while I would personally prefer a nerf to Ken, realistically Ryu should get a buff to make the trade-off frequently worth it.

Voting for Puck-Ma-- oh, sorry, we can't let vandals ruin that name. How about ?

Continuing to change the Shotos after the buffs is a questionable endeavor due to their skill cap and period in the game's lifespan. We aren't even a year in people and the Shotos are tough characters. The results are just starting to come in. Ryu's changes already made him competitive with Ken. While many top Shotos do think Ken will probably be better in the long run, Ryu still has a place in their minds. This is unlike say... Lucina and Marth. who share only one (1) [uno] difference that makes finding a niche for the less dominant echo hard.

 

[BlackInk]

Continuing to change the Shotos after the buffs is a questionable endeavor due to their skill cap and period in the game's lifespan. We aren't even a year in people and the Shotos are tough characters. The results are just starting to come in. Ryu's changes already made him competitive with Ken. While many top Shotos do think Ken will probably be better in the long run, Ryu still has a place in their minds. This is unlike say... Lucina and Marth. who share only one (1) [uno] difference that makes finding a niche for the less dominant echo hard.

They are pretty much brand new characters in this game.

 

[Necro'lic]

I don’t care what’s intended when I see Inking’s up-air, down-air, up-tilt, and it’s poor-designed ink mechanic or Captain Falcon’s terrible changes to this game from smash 4.

Plus, the Dedede mains that use this unintended mechanic are just making this character more interesting, fun, and viable. They are no different from the Ice Climbers when it comes to unintended exploits. So let them have their unique tools.

I didn't realize Inkling's Ink mechanic was so hated.

Also, I would get rid of Gordo double hit. Instead bring back Gordo triangle combos, but have them actually be generally useful. Far better to know that your Gordo hit will send them opposite the Gordo than potentially hit them twice only sometimes because it requires strict timing based only on how long the Gordo was out.

 

[BlackInk]

I didn't realize Inkling's Ink mechanic was so hated.

Also, I would get rid of Gordo double hit. Instead bring back Gordo triangle combos, but have them actually be generally useful. Far better to know that your Gordo hit will send them opposite the Gordo than potentially hit them twice only sometimes because it requires strict timing based only on how long the Gordo was out.

The ink-mechanic is not hated but I feel like some of the Ink boosting damage can be easily trade off to give the ink bombs way more kill potential and the neutral-special some hitstun (when opponents reach high enough percentages, it can lead to smashes). I just don’t see the point in the damage or the ink mechanic if Inkling has no ink moves that can get kills besides that dumb, King.K.Rule-tier side-b. Heck, when Inkling has no ink, it doesn’t even feel bad because only their jab is the only decent ink move in neutral.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think the last patch has put Ryu in a fine position. He feels fair, if annoying, to fight and he doesn’t appear to have any crippling weaknesses. Leave him be.

I vote Falcon.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

We seem to have had a lot of discussion in the past day about Ryu as well as King Dedede, which is great!


Here's Ryu's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...uZwxUTqlMYa83C0zhg15NB8dg4edRkg/viewanalytics


And for the first time, a character got more than one vote and legitimately won the poll!
That character is , so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/j5rFpkKDo6A9zmyp7

And here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who are not as interested in your moves as Falcon: (/) (/) [--] (/) (/)



is another character who was blessed by update 3.1.0, which pretty much made his entire moveset flow well. At this point I think he only needs a few little tweaks to be in a solid high tier position:

• Fix his initial dash once and for all. He should be very mobile on the ground, but his significantly slower initial dash goes against that and prevents many of his options out of initial dash from being as good as they should be.
• He might get a slight nerf on the scooping hitbox of U-smash, as it's honestly silly right now. (Falco wishes he had some of that!)
• Make the hitbox on Falcon Punch actually match the animation, and perhaps give it a bit of forward momentum in the air.
• Continue to improve the consistency of Raptor Boost connecting after it detects a hurtbox. They made it better, but it still isn't amazing.
• Why. Is. Rockcrocking. Still. A. Thing. Significantly decrease the end lag of a successful hit of Falcon Dive.

Voting for Luke Sky-Wakka, AKA .

 

[BlackInk]

I like almost everything you said but I never see anything insane from his scooping in his u-smash animation. Wolf has a way better one that makes the scoop look pretty pathetic in comparison. But again, these smashes are not even broken and Falcon doesn’t really use them as his up-b has high knock back, is fast, and is also a grab (making it safe on shield). Despite this I really want his and Ganon’s up-b to get a buff to prevent this degenerate garbage: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=69sna1bAk0w How is this still here after all this time?

As for the vote. It’s my formal main, Zelda.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Most of Falcon’s major flaws have been addressed, but why is his dash still so much worse than everyone else’s? They already nerfed his dash grab, so I don’t really see the reason. Normalize his dash and decrease the ending lag on Falcon Dive and you have a solid Captain Falcon.

I vote Doc.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Most of Falcon’s major flaws have been addressed, but why is his dash still so much worse than everyone else’s? They already nerfed his dash grab, so I don’t really see the reason. Normalize his dash and decrease the ending lag on Falcon Dive and you have a solid Captain Falcon.

I vote Doc.

I generally agree with this. I also would like to see Raptor Boost always meteor on aerial hits, but I'm interested in others' thoughts on this. I think it would help a bit with his lamentable recovery, but would that be too good? I understand the nerf in a post-meteor-cancel world, but I really don't think it would be OP.

I'll vote for Doc as well; that's an interesting one.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I generally agree with this. I also would like to see Raptor Boost always meteor on aerial hits, but I'm interested in others' thoughts on this. I think it would help a bit with his lamentable recovery, but would that be too good? I understand the nerf in a post-meteor-cancel world, but I really don't think it would be OP.

I'll vote for Doc as well; that's an interesting one.

I don’t think it’d be OP because Raptor Boost isn’t really that good of a recovery move, but that’s supposed to be Falcon’s trademark weakness: his recovery. His short lifespan offstage is meant to offset his high speed and power.

That said, it would be nice if it were easier to grab the ledge with Raptor Boost. I never recover with the move because more often than not I end up falling to my death or landing onstage when I use it.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Buff Knee again

'nuff said

Oh and remove rockcrocking, and maybe shave off some frames of Down B

Also I vote for Lucina again.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

As is, Falcon probably function good enough, Up-Air Knee is thing again now.
Tho I'm not against buffing his dash, giving his D-Throw more frame advantage and finally removing the stupid rockcrock.
(I guess make Falcon Punch unblockable so it's practical IDK)


I'll vote for since he's ahead in votes.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Have you actually seen ANY competitive tier list or usage rate for Marth? He is one of the least played out of any character in the entire game competitively. If they were "equally viable" then you'd certainly be seeing him used more than not at all. Everything you've just said has been repeated time and time again and nobody thinks it's anything more than useless theorycraft that doesn't actually work in practice.

I don't take many current tier lists seriously because the meta of the game hasn't been fully established yet and a lot of the ones posted by top players in youtube are sprinkled with their own personal biases rather than being a community agreed viewpoint for the most part, and some observations are questionable as well.

My observations on Marth rely merely on my own personal experiences in dealing with competent Marth players off and online, and my own usage of the character. I think that the current perception stems more from the fact that people haven't bothered to work into Marth as much as Lucina because she is the easier alternative to play, that much I believe. However, my opinion isn't final and I want to learn more which is why I posted here.

With that said, since you bothered in replying, try making yourself more useful for once and do go more in depth about my "useless" theorycraft. Or give me at least data to support your claims. Your little display of passive-aggressiveness was adorable, but it will only get you so far in a discussion.

Apologies to everyone else for deviating from the current topic in the thread.

Most of Falcon’s major flaws have been addressed, but why is his dash still so much worse than everyone else’s? They already nerfed his dash grab, so I don’t really see the reason. Normalize his dash and decrease the ending lag on Falcon Dive and you have a solid Captain Falcon.

I vote Doc.

I haven't played C Falcon that much in this game, but what makes his dash worse than others?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I haven't played C Falcon that much in this game, but what makes his dash worse than others?

IIRC it's the startup, or simply because Falcon has very limited movement options in general. Without a projectile or any disjointed attack and seriously slow frame data on some of his moves, he relies on his grab and aerials for a lot of his neutral play which means unless his dash is god tier he can be in disadvantage in almost any state.

But I only use Falcon for funsies and I never use him seriously so take my word with a serious grain of salt.

 

[Necro'lic]

IIRC it's the startup, or simply because Falcon has very limited movement options in general. Without a projectile or any disjointed attack and seriously slow frame data on some of his moves, he relies on his grab and aerials for a lot of his neutral play which means unless his dash is god tier he can be in disadvantage in almost any state.

But I only use Falcon for funsies and I never use him seriously so take my word with a serious grain of salt.

There's no way his startup on dash was the only thing saving him from being bad in the past games. He's the second fastest character in the game. Surely he can't be awful with that amount of speed.

 

[MetaWeegee]

Interesting thread idea. Guess I'll chime in a bit.

I think the weirdness of dashing with Falcon is related to his weird initial dash. In previous games, it was in the top 5 or amongst the highest (and outright the best in Melee, IIRC) and complimented his natrually high dash speed. Now, he's just tied with the Chus for the 29th fastest initial dash (1.95). Not awful, but it sure as hell ain't what it was before, and it kinda shows. Increasing it to like, say, Roy/Chrom's initial dash (2.2) seems like a quick and easy fix.

Aside from that, the only other changes I'd wish to see are un-nerfs to his down throw, slightly increased air speed (about Greninja's air speed value), and maybe slightly less traction so he can get some follow ups off forward throw again.

Oh yeah, and as everyone else has said, rockcrocking was a mistake. Please kill that **** (and this change applies to Ganon too, of course).

Slight thoughts on some previous characters

• He seems to be solid, just there's no real reason to use him. Some buffs to tipper consistency and maybe strength would be pretty helpful.
• Do something about dash attack and Side Special. Please.

I prolly won't respond for a while (if at all), but I nominate

 

[BlackInk]

So it’s doctor mario time I guess. That’s the only one with more than one vote.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Falcon's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...TRtuFw-LwvQgtOwgCnVDdrxggKeKTWQ/viewanalytics

obviously won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/iKf6n1JxNoDmwBDo6

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who didn't fake a PhD to scam you with microtransactions: (/) (/) [--] (/) (/)



looked good at release, but unfortunately his down-B jank isn't as useful as R.O.B.'s analogous side-B jank, and the rest of his moveset doesn't compensate for that. He was also ignored in the patches while many other characters at and above his viability got buffed, pushing him down to low tier. Here's how I would bring him back to relevance:

• They seem to be treating Dr. Mario like a heavyweight version of Mario, so can he actually be a heavyweight? I'd make him decently heavier than Mario, which would also make his terrible recovery not as big of a problem. (Plus, after working to get a PhD, I'm sure he's packed on some weight...)
• Can he please move just a bit faster? He doesn't have the hitboxes to make up for that slow of mobility like Ganon does.
• There's no reason Dr. Mario needed the same range nerf for U-tilt that Mario got between the games. It was only ridiculous for Mario because it led into ladder combos, which Dr. Mario lacks. I would revert that nerf.
• The extra damage on Super Sheet compared to Cape doesn't make as much of a difference as Cape's ability to stall. I would make Super Sheet stall as well, perhaps not as effectively as Cape to make up for the extra damage.
• His terrible recovery is also a fault of his Super Jump Punch, which is significantly worse than it was in Smash 4. I would make both hitboxes somewhat stronger, make it travel somewhat farther, and make B-reverses and turnarounds with this move easier like they were in Smash 4.

Voting for the actual smartest character, .

 

[Arthur97]

Obligatory why do you use Female Robin's icon when she isn't the default Robin?

 

[BlackInk]

Obligatory why do you use Female Robin's icon when she isn't the default Robin?

She’s the most used Robin.

Vote for Zelda.

 

[Arthur97]

She’s the most used Robin.

And yet, still not the default.

 

[BlackInk]

And yet, still not the default.

No one really cares about defaults.

 

[Arthur97]

No one really cares about defaults.

Well, your previous claim is also virtually impossible to prove. All you have to go off of is the handful of competitive players you can see (I can think of one, and he plays both of them with a seeming leaning toward Male Robin despite Female Robin being given top billing) and people at places like this which don't play either and just put her because waifu power. Even if you had access to online data, that still excludes offline play. In the event of such an impossible to prove claim, it's best to stick with defaults.

Also, if they don't care, why aren't we using Alph's icon? Or how about a Koopaling?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Alright, can we talk about Dr. Mario now? I don't want this thread to devolve into petty arguments that mean nothing.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

L1N3R1D3R
Ask and you shall receive.


Well this isn't the last game, so I can safely say that is a solid Mid Tier.

Honestly, he's actually getting decent placings and new helpful tech discovered this early on.
The meta development for him is pretty darn good.

-His frame data is still god-like, even being a little faster then 's in some areas. (F-Tilt & B-air are stupid spamable)
-The increase 1v1 multiplier actually give him so pretty nice damage of his somewhat limited combos and strings.
-A large opening of kill confirms have opened up thanks to the new Dair, Pill and Tornado.
-Speaking of which, Tornado is nearly busted, with increased damage, KO power as early as 60% of stage, connects properly now thanks to the new angles and even some grounded light-armor as a bonus.
-Up-Smash & B-Throw kills early...
Like at 100% on average.
-Tons of other crap that I'm too lazy to highlight.

This character can feel unstoppable at times and is much better then his Sm4sh counterpart.
Although he sucks against zoners, he's pretty good against characters who have to get in his range, so he's a viable counterpick option.


I'd still take any buffs his way.

-Weight: 98 to 102 (Same as )
-Walk Speed: 0.917 to 1.1 (Slightly higher then )
-Initial Dash: 1.537 to 1.8 (Same as )
-Run Speed: 1.39 to 1.52 (Same as )
-Total Air Acceleration: 0.061 to 0.08 (Same as )
-Air Speed: 0.923 to 1.05 (Same as )

-Make the sour-hits of F-Smash and F-Air sweet-hits.

-Give F-Throw and Up-B (Both hits) more knockback.

-Give Tornado full super-armor for slightly less knockback.

-Also his Up-Smash, Up-B (Both hits) and all his aerials are unsafe on hit at low percents...
Could you fix those please?


Yeah that's about it...

Otherwise, I'm grateful he got buffed at all.




is my vote.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

: Solid mid tier. Good against other close range characters but loses to swords and zoners.

Buffs:

• Increase up B recovery distance
• Make d-air come out a little faster
• Adjust up air angles so it's easier to combo with

Nerfs:

• Make down B final hit weaker and that's all I can think of.

 

[MetaWeegee]

Hey, I have time to respond today. Neato.

Really, Doc needs next to nothing to be a fully viable alternative to Mario. All they have to do is give his Up B a horizontal and vertical distance boost a la Incineroar, and he's good. A weight buff (From 98 to 104, Same as and ) and an unnerf on up tilt would also be nice.

I nominate, er, idk,

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Hey, I have time to respond today. Neato.

Really, Doc needs next to nothing to be a fully viable alternative to Mario. All they have to do is give his Up B a horizontal and vertical distance boost a la Incineroar, and he's good. A weight buff (From 98 to 104, Same as and ) and an unnerf on up tilt would also be nice.

I nominate, er, idk,

Some better mobility would help too so zoners aren't a nightmare to fight.

 

[MetaWeegee]

Some better mobility would help too so zoners aren't a nightmare to fight.

.....I knew I was forgetting something. Hell, isn't Doc even slower relative to the cast than in Smash 4?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Dr. Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...J6g54Uyo1cXYrOlo6FcHCRCE1l6CTKA/viewanalytics

won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/qEYEf7YWebSx3jQ1A

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who may or may not have 200 IQ: (/) (/) [--] (/) (/)



got most of the core buffs he needed between games, including buffing smash attacks, shortening Bonus Fruit charge time, fixing the Power Pellet bouncing glitch, and of course making his grab actually usable. These changes allowed his potential to be truly achieved through strong results by Sinji, Tea, and others. At this point I think he's pretty much high tier, but there is one move I would buff and some others that could use fine tuning.

• He has some mediocre grounded options, but by far the strangest is U-tilt. For some reason they really changed this move between the games, and I have to say I like the old version more. Despite the new version's significantly lower lag, its range got reduced so much that the move was nerfed overall. I would give it at least a little range in front of him so that the opponent doesn't literally have to be right above him for the move to hit.
• Other moves that could use tiny buffs to round out his moveset are jab, dash attack, F-tilt, D-tilt, F-throw, D-throw, and N-air.

Voting for another really old character, .

 

[MrGameguycolor]

.....I knew I was forgetting something. Hell, isn't Doc even slower relative to the cast than in Smash 4?

Yes, by a good chunk.
He (Along with & ) didn't get a proper mobility boost when everyone else did.
So everyone is pretty dang quick.

Just for example, this is 's stats:

-Walk Speed: 1.281
-Run Speed: 1.76
-Air Speed: 1.01

Compared to 's:

-Walk Speed: 0.917
-Run Speed: 1.39
-Air Speed: 0.923


And 's is considered average...

 

[BlackInk]

Dr. Mario's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...J6g54Uyo1cXYrOlo6FcHCRCE1l6CTKA/viewanalytics

won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/qEYEf7YWebSx3jQ1A

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who may or may not have 200 IQ: (/) (/) [--] (/) (/)



got most of the core buffs he needed between games, including buffing smash attacks, shortening Bonus Fruit charge time, fixing the Power Pellet bouncing glitch, and of course making his grab actually usable. These changes allowed his potential to be truly achieved through strong results by Sinji, Tea, and others. At this point I think he's pretty much high tier, but there is one move I would buff and some others that could use fine tuning.

• He has some mediocre grounded options, but by far the strangest is U-tilt. For some reason they really changed this move between the games, and I have to say I like the old version more. Despite the new version's significantly lower lag, its range got reduced so much that the move was nerfed overall. I would give it at least a little range in front of him so that the opponent doesn't literally have to be right above him for the move to hit.
• Other moves that could use tiny buffs to round out his moveset are jab, dash attack, F-tilt, D-tilt, F-throw, D-throw, and N-air.

Voting for another really old character, .

Hmm, I honestly don’t know about slightly buffing him. His kit is pretty bizarre for the most part and he has some outright broken projectals (neutral b). Plus, I never hear anyone complain about his hit boxes or the moves you describe. Another problem here is that you never describe what the ‘tiny buffs’ are supposed to be, so I don’t know the purpose of these tiny buffs.

I’m voting for bayonetta.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Hmm, I honestly don’t know about slightly buffing him. His kit is pretty bizarre for the most part and he has some outright broken projectals (neutral b). Plus, I never hear anyone complain about his hit boxes or the moves you describe. Another problem here is that you never describe what the ‘tiny buffs’ are supposed to be, so I don’t know the purpose of these tiny buffs.

I’m voting for bayonetta.

I wouldn't say neutral B is broken. It's an essential part of his kit, but every projectile has lots of potential counterplay, and throwing the projectiles in the first place is still laggy.

I want U-tilt to be buffed because if you've tried playing Pac-Man and using that move, you'll realize just how hard it is to hit anybody with it, which makes its low lag irrelevant.

The other moves are at least usable, but they're not on par with the rest of his moveset which is good. I didn't go into detail about them before because I thought more people would acknowledge how mediocre those moves are and agree with the general concept, but I'll describe the changes here. Jab and F-tilt should do a bit more damage, D-tilt should be a bit less laggy, dash attack should connect better (it's worse than Smash 4), and N-air shouldn't have gotten its knockback reduced from Smash 4 because he already has enough combo aerials and he really needs another kill tool.

His results still aren't astounding, so I think your apparent fear of buffing is a little misguided. But I play Pac-Man a lot, so who knows, I may just know more about the smallest flaws that might not matter as much in the bigger picture.

 

[BlackInk]

I wouldn't say neutral B is broken. It's an essential part of his kit, but every projectile has lots of potential counterplay, and throwing the projectiles in the first place is still laggy.

I want U-tilt to be buffed because if you've tried playing Pac-Man and using that move, you'll realize just how hard it is to hit anybody with it, which makes its low lag irrelevant.

The other moves are at least usable, but they're not on par with the rest of his moveset which is good. I didn't go into detail about them before because I thought more people would acknowledge how mediocre those moves are and agree with the general concept, but I'll describe the changes here. Jab and F-tilt should do a bit more damage, D-tilt should be a bit less laggy, dash attack should connect better (it's worse than Smash 4), and N-air shouldn't have gotten its knockback reduced from Smash 4 because he already has enough combo aerials and he really needs another kill tool.

His results still aren't astounding, so I think your apparent fear of buffing is a little misguided. But I play Pac-Man a lot, so who knows, I may just know more about the smallest flaws that might not matter as much in the bigger picture.

I think of him as a another ice climber or Falcon. Is underwelming at the beginning but becomes downright scary later, despite lacking buffs. I do understand giving him minor buffs but we do need to understand what buffs we are giving him or the purpose of them.

I have a question though, does the up-tilt match the animation of the hit box? It’s just that animation and hit box inconsistencies is a common problem in this game. I feel like they overlooked way too many characters moves in this game and weirdly enough, even some top-tiers need these fixes.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think of him as a another ice climber or Falcon. Is underwelming at the beginning but becomes downright scary later, despite lacking buffs. I do understand giving him minor buffs but we do need to understand what buffs we are giving him or the purpose of them.

I have a question though, does the up-tilt match the animation of the hit box? It’s just that animation and hit box inconsistencies is a common problem in this game. I feel like they overlooked way too many characters moves in this game and weirdly enough, even some top-tiers need these fixes.

I can see where you're coming from, but I would propose that a decent U-tilt would round out his moveset by giving him a juggle option from the ground without needing to land his jab. The buff wouldn't be huge, but it would let him hit opponents directly in front of him rather than them needing to be right above him, which is really hard to achieve without a read. The buffs to the other moves would give them a purpose so that they aren't overshadowed by his projectile game. Right now the only reason I end up using those moves is either a desperate attempt to extend a combo or a mis-input of a smash attack.

The animation of U-tilt does have him punching straight upwards, but I would argue that's irrelevant if the move is bad. The hitbox would not and should not be egregious, it just shouldn't whiff on all grounded opponents and hydrant. And I agree that we need to fix the hitboxes of a lot of other moves, too.

 

[Astroking112]

Didn't Up-Tilt have a small hitbox in front of him in Smash 4? As someone who mostly plays Pac-Man, I can confirm that the move is basically useless right now. Having that small hitbox would be really nice, though, especially since it would provide more ways to launch the hydrant.

Other than that, there's not really any changes that I want to see for him. He's in a good place right now, and he's able to do a lot of really cool stuff.