ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: *crickets*

L1N3R1D3R

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#1
Hello, Smashboards Ultimate community!

A few years back ZeroSoul ZeroSoul made a thread like this for Smash 4, and I've decided to take the reins for Smash Ultimate.

Basically, for the first couple of days we will be discussing universal balance changes that affect gameplay, as well as the future of the thread.

After that, every day we will discuss a character in the game and the balance changes we would make to them, and then vote which character should be discussed next.
Every day you should fill out the daily poll as well as posting your opinions on this thread.
When you see this thread, you should go back to the current day's official update post by me and follow the instructions there.



I do NOT plan on adding :ulthero: or :ultbanjokazooie: for the first round, but :ulthero: will be in the next round, and :ultbanjokazooie: could be in it if they're released early enough.

Once we've gone through the roster, we will go back to discussing the game in general, and potentially change up the format for the next round.


I will try to update this thread at around 4:30 PM CST/CDT every day.
However, this may vary, so you should respond as soon as you see my update posts to make sure that your opinion is recorded!

One last rule that I've had to add: Please be civil in your disagreements.
Feel free to have healthy debate about balance changes as long as you remain on topic and accepting of other people's opinions.
If things get too heated, please discuss it privately. This thread is not the place to resolve those issues.
If these issues persist in this thread, anyone directly involved will have their votes ignored for a week.
Any other long-term conversations are fine, but please follow the instructions of the update post, even if you only briefly mention the current character.

Universal Changes & Future of Thread
First Character

[3.1.0]

:ultmarth: (see post #19 for why we didn't discuss Mario first)
:ultsnake:
:ultkingdedede: (see posts #20 and #26 for why the rest of these polls are shorter)
:ultryu:
:ultfalcon:
:ultdoc:
:ultpacman:
:ultbayonetta:
:ultgnw:
:ultcloud:
:ultjoker: (see posts #93-96 for why the rest of these polls have different tier designations)
:ultolimar:
:ultduckhunt:
:ultpiranha:
:ultpokemontrainerf::
~ :ultsquirtle:
~ :ultivysaur:
~ :ultcharizard:
:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:
:ultrob:

[4.0.0]

Patch 4.0.0 Transition
:ultridley:
:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:
:ultmewtwo:
4.0.0 and :ulthero: early impressions
:ultpikachu:
:ultroy:
:ultlucas:
:ultchrom:
:ultwario:
:ultmetaknight:
:ultlink:
:ultmario:
:ultlittlemac:
:ultsonic:
:ultjigglypuff:
:ultfalco:
:ultkrool:
:ultswordfighter:
:ultrosalina:
:ultinkling:
:ultluigi:
:ultpichu:
:ultsheik:
:ultgunner:
:ultzss:
:ultike:
:ultdk:
:ultwolf:
:ultfox:
:ultincineroar:
:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:
:ultisabelle:
:ultshulk:
:ultcorrinf:

[5.0.0]

:ultbanjokazooie:
:ultdiddy:

https://youtu.be/4fWyzwo1xg0


With all that out of the way, here's the poll for the first couple of days: https://forms.gle/a9SSGBgoeitpmHio7

And here are my thoughts on universal balance changes to get the ball rolling:
  • Have options on your control scheme to reduce the buffer window and disable automatic short-hop attacks. These "new features" often hurt more than they help.
  • Continue to improve the consistency of multi-hit moves. This is simply jank that can negatively affect the attacker or the victim in many different ways.
  • Make every special move able to B-reverse like normal. No need to do a "turnaround special" or restrict the ability to reverse its direction at all.
  • Make quick-moving recoveries like teleports a bit easier to ledge cancel, and make them ride the stage instead of bouncing off of it (or give an extra use after bouncing off, akin to Ness and Lucas's PK Thunder).
  • Speaking of ledge cancelling, I don't understand why they removed this ability from so many moves. I would revert that change as well as making it easier to perform and adding it to more special moves.
  • Slightly decrease the aerial end lag of directional air dodges so it isn't a guaranteed SD for some characters. In return, remove spot dodge canceling and make neutral air dodges have a bit more landing lag.
  • Make the opponent not die to the bottom blast zone early from the connecting hit of a multihit move. This is the big reason why Chromicide was so powerful, and why Pikachu and Pichu's low Thunder offstage and other tricks are still so strong.
 
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#2
I seemed to be very early to the party here, because I did a huge thread about the universal changes I would do for Smash Bros as a whole already. You can go ahead and read through all that if you REALLY want to, but I'll summarize some big ones of mine here that are more realistic, as well as some I didn't talk about.

  • Bring wavedashing back as a single button input (probably the redundant second shield button) separate from dodging, separate from air dodge.
    • As a corollary, bring back wavelanding off platforms
  • Bring back shield platform drop, probably simplified in some way so as to not accidentally cause sidestepping
  • Increase shieldstun as a whole
  • Heavily increase DI and increase hitstun
    • Also remove hitstun cancelling
  • Make tether grabs better in general (I personally would choose to have them have long lasting hitboxes, enough to catch sidesteps without fail)
  • Rework the ledge trump system to favor the person on stage
    • Do not misunderstand, do NOT bring back ledgehogging, just change ledge trump into something advantageous to the advantaged player
  • MAKE ALL MOVES SAFE ON HIT, HOLY CRAP WHY IS THIS STILL A THING!!!!!

That's about all I can think of right now.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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#3
Since we haven't gained much traction yet, I'll bump this up and keep it on general discussion for another couple of days.

Remember to fill out this poll and also post your thoughts in this thread!
https://forms.gle/a9SSGBgoeitpmHio7


Also, two more universal balance patches I would add:
  • Make grabs and command grabs connect if they hit any part of someone's shield. Right now way too many grabs whiff because you can't run through an opponent's shield, and their hurtbox is too far inside the shield to touch the grab box.
  • To compensate, make grabs and command grabs always get stuffed out by other attacks. These two changes would restore the "grab beats shield" and "attack beats grab" aspects of the rock-paper-scissors for interactions that I feel should be more prevalent in the game.
 
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FartyParty

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#4
Heavily increase DI and increase hitstun
I don't know about increasing DI. I've seen plenty of players survive stuff that seemed like guaranteed kills purely through DI so it seems strong enough. But a very big yes to increased hitstun.

MAKE ALL MOVES SAFE ON HIT, HOLY CRAP WHY IS THIS STILL A THING!!!!!
1 million times YES to this, which is inherently linked to the hit stun issue. The issue of a move being unsafe on hit is only possible when the move's end-lag exceeds the hit stun duration, so clearly some moves need either less end-lag or more hit stun, but considering that most moves already have very low end-lag it would be better to extend the hit stun.
 
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#5
I don't know about increasing DI. I've seen plenty of players survive stuff that seemed like guaranteed kills purely through DI so it seems strong enough. But a very big yes to increased hitstun.
The purpose is twofold. The increased DI and hitstun means defensively people have more chance to get out of a combo by going in different directions, but also have more chance to continue getting comboed if they get predicted, thus adding more actual depth to comboing someone since they still have a lot of control over their character. But it also is to allow for more creative combos that are taken by necessity to react to enemy movement while in hitstun.


1 million times YES to this, which is inherently linked to the hit stun issue. The issue of a move being unsafe on hit is only possible when the move's end-lag exceeds the hit stun duration, so clearly some moves need either less end-lag or more hit stun, but considering that most moves already have very low end-lag it would be better to extend the hit stun.
Thanks for agreeing here too. Moves being unsafe on hit always seem to feel like you are punished heavily for doing the right thing with a move, which is hitting the opponent. It's honestly a horrible system I've never seen done in other fighting games.
 

FartyParty

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#6
The purpose is twofold. The increased DI and hitstun means defensively people have more chance to get out of a combo by going in different directions, but also have more chance to continue getting comboed if they get predicted, thus adding more actual depth to comboing someone since they still have a lot of control over their character. But it also is to allow for more creative combos that are taken by necessity to react to enemy movement while in hitstun.
Sounds like what you want to be increased is either SDI or LSI, rather than plain DI.
 
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#7
Sounds like what you want to be increased is either SDI or LSI, rather than plain DI.
Most certainly not with increasing SDI, because that would just make multi hits even less functional than they already are. In fact, I would honestly be all for removing SDI entirely for at least the multihit moves, not counting the last launching hitboxes. As for LSI, I'm guessing that's what vectoring is called now, and I've said I would decrease the potency of LSI as percent went up, but have it overall stronger and more controllable while in hitstun. Thus it's a double whammy of DI controlling angle, and LSI controlling distance traveled from the enemy during knockback.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#9
MAKE ALL MOVES SAFE ON HIT, HOLY CRAP WHY IS THIS STILL A THING!!!!!
For a second there, I thought you said "make all moves safe on shield" and I was like "WHAT!?"

I also agree that one shouldn't be punished for landing a hit. I was annoyed when in Smash 4, if you hit someone on the ground with Ganon's Dair, that person could tech on place and retaliate while you were still recovering from the end lag.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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#10
I'm looking at the poll results right now, and when including my preferences, the consensus appears to be:
  • :ultdarksamus:, :ultdaisy:, :ultdarkpit:, and :ultrichter: will be discussed on the same days as :ultsamus:, :ultpeach:, :ultpit:, and :ultsimon: respectively, whereas :ultlucina:, :ultchrom:, and :ultken: will be discussed separately from :ultmarth:, :ultroy:, and :ultryu:.
  • :ultpokemontrainer:/:ultpokemontrainerf: will be discussed in three consecutive days: :ultsquirtle:, then :ultivysaur:, then :ultcharizard:.
  • :ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter: will be discussed with free movesets. Be sure to mention which moveset you are discussing or discuss all the custom moves when we discuss each character!
There is no consensus about the number of tiers and I'm personally torn between 5 and 7, so that has not been decided yet.


In the meantime, I like where this discussion is going now, so keep at it!
If you haven't yet, please fill out this poll so I can get more data, especially for the number of tiers: https://forms.gle/a9SSGBgoeitpmHio7

Additionally, for the next day I also want you all to vote for which character we should discuss tomorrow!
Please add a vote to your posts, as well as filling out this poll to vote for the first character:
https://forms.gle/k5mcayk4Mth8Tx3N8



With all that said, my addition to the current discussion is that DI ability should decrease the stronger a move is, to make combos more reactionary but killing more consistent. I also support greatly reducing the SDI on the connecting hits of all multi-hit moves with launching hitboxes that aren't rapid jabs to vastly improve their consistency. (I would then fix any bad rapid jabs on a case-to-case basis, but many of them are already very good even with SDI, which is why I wouldn't make it a universal change. I exclude moves without launching hitboxes primarily to prevent buffing PK Fire and Holy Water.)

And for the first character of this round I will be voting :ultmarth:, because I really want to discuss him and his current inferiority to :ultlucina:.
 
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#11
And for the first character of this round I will be voting :ultmarth:, because I really want to discuss him and his current inferiority to :ultlucina:.
Not sure about details on why Marth is the inferior one other than the fact that his sweetspot gimmick has always made his comparison with Lucina all about how powerful those sweetspots are compared to Lucina's better close range prowess. Unlike Smash 4, Lucina's close range clearly wins out this time.

This honestly shows why having echoes that are this fundamentally different is not a good idea. Pit/Dark Pit are a good pair, Samus/Dark Samus are too. But Lucina and Ken are not, because they have too many changes but are balanced as if they are the same character as their originals.

If it were up to me, like always, I would just up and de-echo Lucina completely and give her a new moveset, thus removing this problem while also gaining a technically new character in the roster (mechanically), but in terms of realistic expectation, just don't balance them the same way. Same with Ryu and Ken. It won't work.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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#12
Not sure about details on why Marth is the inferior one other than the fact that his sweetspot gimmick has always made his comparison with Lucina all about how powerful those sweetspots are compared to Lucina's better close range prowess. Unlike Smash 4, Lucina's close range clearly wins out this time.

This honestly shows why having echoes that are this fundamentally different is not a good idea. Pit/Dark Pit are a good pair, Samus/Dark Samus are too. But Lucina and Ken are not, because they have too many changes but are balanced as if they are the same character as their originals.

If it were up to me, like always, I would just up and de-echo Lucina completely and give her a new moveset, thus removing this problem while also gaining a technically new character in the roster (mechanically), but in terms of realistic expectation, just don't balance them the same way. Same with Ryu and Ken. It won't work.
As you said, in the current metagame Marth is inferior to Lucina because spacing is not as important as aggression due to universally low lag. That's why I wanted to discuss Marth, because he's the only character that I feel is irrelevant because of another character's existence, so I want to make changes to him that make him relevant without making Lucina irrelevant.

I was glad to see Lucina, Chrom, and Ken would be discussed separately from Marth, Roy, and Ryu respectively, because they deserve different treatment. Thankfully Nintendo seems to acknowledge it given their patch history for this game!
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#13
I actually don't agree with the perception that Marth is inferior to Lucina. While Lucina provides more consistency, Marth's tippered moves are still very damaging and can get him early kills. People say that spacing is less important in this game, but I don't see how. I know that there is less ending lag across the board and that Ultimate is more aggressive, but in my experience, efficient use of Marth's moves is still very much possible rewarding him tremendously and can make him devastating. I've delved into Marth myself and I don't find the spacing much more difficult than it was in Smash 4, despite the increase in speed.

I fear a good Marth more than a good Lucina. If people say that he is inferior because of Lucina's consistency, at worst it's only by a tad. I currently don't see either character as irrelevant.
 
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Idon

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#14
I actually don't agree with the perception that Marth is inferior to Lucina. While Lucina provides more consistency, Marth's tippered moves are still very damaging and can get him early kills. People say that spacing is less important in this game, but I don't see how. I know that there is less ending lag across the board and that Ultimate is more aggressive, but in my experience, efficient use of Marth's moves is still very much possible rewarding him tremendously and can make him devastating. I've delved into Marth myself and I don't find the spacing much more difficult than it was in Smash 4, despite the increase in speed.

I fear a good Marth more than a good Lucina. If people say that he is inferior because of Lucina's consistency, at worst it's only by a tad. I currently don't see either character as irrelevant.
Have you actually seen ANY competitive tier list or usage rate for Marth? He is one of the least played out of any character in the entire game competitively. If they were "equally viable" then you'd certainly be seeing him used more than not at all. Everything you've just said has been repeated time and time again and nobody thinks it's anything more than useless theorycraft that doesn't actually work in practice.
 
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#15
A little late on the mechanic changes, which is fine since we'd be hear all day if I were to list ALL my preferred changes.

Anyway, the only thing I want see at this point that seems possible is being able to wave-land off platforms. It'd add more to the movement and would just be cool to watch.
(Also togglable short-hop attack plz)

As for Marth.
I actually believe his balance is near prefect and doesn't need any tweaks.

He just needs a playbase since now he knows how it feels to be:4drmario: & :4mii:.

Unpopular opinion: Much rather see Lucy nerfed to Marth's level instead, she gets away with too much as is.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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#16
Remember to vote, guys! My vote for Marth is so that we might discuss him tomorrow, but it seems like you guys are already talking about him. Feel free to vote for other characters and bring them up if you don't want to talk about Marth yet!
 

BlackInk

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#17
I actually don't agree with the perception that Marth is inferior to Lucina. While Lucina provides more consistency, Marth's tippered moves are still very damaging and can get him early kills. People say that spacing is less important in this game, but I don't see how. I know that there is less ending lag across the board and that Ultimate is more aggressive, but in my experience, efficient use of Marth's moves is still very much possible rewarding him tremendously and can make him devastating. I've delved into Marth myself and I don't find the spacing much more difficult than it was in Smash 4, despite the increase in speed.

I fear a good Marth more than a good Lucina. If people say that he is inferior because of Lucina's consistency, at worst it's only by a tad. I currently don't see either character as irrelevant.
Marth just really needs his tipper boxes increased. No questions, as he is just that simple to fix.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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#19
Here's the poll results for universal changes and the future of the thread: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...fY1yzBGcvqsFCvml1A1qpj2CBW06f0A/viewanalytics
Here's the poll results for the first character: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...D4mWTxR2unE2vm2w6vxVbH5JfzNkBfw/viewanalytics


Combining the first poll with my personal opinions, the final decisions for voting and polls this round are:
  • There will be 5 tiers in which to place a character: Top, High, Mid, Low, and Bottom.
  • :ultdarksamus:, :ultdaisy:, :ultdarkpit:, and :ultrichter: will be discussed on the same days as :ultsamus:, :ultpeach:, :ultpit:, and :ultsimon: respectively, whereas :ultlucina:, :ultchrom:, and :ultken: will be discussed separately from :ultmarth:, :ultroy:, and :ultryu:.
  • :ultpokemontrainer:/:ultpokemontrainerf: will be voted for as one unit. If they win, they will then be discussed in three consecutive days: :ultsquirtle:, then :ultivysaur:, then :ultcharizard:.
  • :ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter: will be discussed with free movesets. Be sure to mention which moveset you are discussing or discuss all the custom moves when we discuss each character!


Despite what the second poll says, we will start this thread discussing:ultmarth:.
Counting the votes that were in this thread, it was a three-way tie between :ultmario:, :ultmarth:, and :ultolimar:.
But since we seem to have already gotten pretty deep into a discussion for :ultmarth:, we'll wrap that up today.
(From now on, I'll also be voting in the poll so the results are more obvious.)


With that in mind, PLEASE:
  • Try to discuss the topic at hand, and avoid discussing characters that other people have voted for until they are the discussion of the day.
  • Respond to the polls! It doesn't take that long, and it's a nice way to consolidate data.
  • Also put your thoughts in this thread so we can discuss/debate them.
  • Vote for a character to discuss the next day!
I know there's more than three people on this thread, but we only got three votes for today's character, and only one of them was through the poll.
And we seemed to get into a deep discussion about Marth simply because of what I said when I voted for him yesterday, when the discussion should have remained about universal changes for one more day.



With that being said, please respond to Marth's poll here: https://forms.gle/znuSYxKLUDPXzrNZ7

And here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow: :ultbayonetta: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultfalcon: :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy: :ultdk: :ultdoc: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkingdedede: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultgnw: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpacman: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf: :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultryu: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsnake: :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:


Here are my thoughts on :ultmarth:: I think he's a character whose presence is entirely overshadowed by :ultlucina:. While he can technically do more than her, he takes an extreme amount of precision in this game, which is not good when the whole game is much faster than Smash 4. He also just has some underwhelming moves in general even with a buff to the tipper. Because of this his representation resembles a bottom tier character, despite him likely being mid tier in theory. With all that in mind, here's how I would change him:
  • Increase the size of the tipper hitbox on all his moves to cover more of the sword. Characters that depend on precise spacing struggle in such a fast game engine, so they should be given a decent chance to space well instead of the minuscule chance he has currently. Also, why is Roy's sweetspot so much bigger than Marth's?
  • Increase the knockback of tipper F-air. They nerfed it so it's only barely stronger than Lucina's, which is not good for the sweetspot of a move whose sourspot is significantly weaker (for good reason). It's his only tipper move besides jab that doesn't really kill well, which should be addressed.
  • Slightly decrease the end lag of D-smash and D-air. They're not useful enough for how much lag they have.
  • Revert the knockback nerf of U-throw. The last two are also changes I would make to Lucina, in exchange for a couple small nerfs to her.

My vote for tomorrow goes to :ultpacman:.
(Again, this does not indicate that we should start discussing Pac-Man right now. We're talking about Marth for today.)
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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#20
Well it seems like you guys were already done talking about Marth by the time I made my post yesterday, so there wasn't any discussion here.
Luckily we got a few poll responses for Marth, which you can find here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Nf8FnJ3KZAvw4ofGKAXBwkFljK44CIw/viewanalytics

Starting tomorrow, I think I'm going to simplify the daily poll by removing two questions:
  1. The question asking for specific changes you would make to the character. Removing this would help with poll anonymity, make the poll quicker to fill out, and keep most of the discussion on this forum.
  2. The question about your vote for the next day. Removing this would encourage more people to see other people's votes and potentially vote with them, so I don't have to resort to the randomizer nearly as much.
If you have any objections to either of these two, let me know today and I'll reconsider.


Since the vote was a four-way tie, I set up a randomizer which picked :ultsnake:, so he will be our discussion topic for today.

Here's the poll for Snake: https://forms.gle/EwF4CsuHg8dJvKKk9

And here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who may or may not be dummy thicc like Snake: :ultbayonetta: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultfalcon: :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy: :ultdk: :ultdoc: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkingdedede: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultgnw: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpacman: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultryu: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

Remember to put your discussion and votes in this thread as well!



Anyway, my thoughts on :ultsnake:. I feel like he was already borderline top tier at release, and yet the minor nerfs to Nikita and U-smash haven't really made up for the buffs to jab, U-tilt (why?), and B-air, as well as the arguable buff to Grenades. Considering how much the other top tiers have been nerfed, he's in an even better condition than he was at launch, and arguably the best character in the game. Here's how I would nerf him:
  • The intangibility on dash attack seems a bit excessive given how quick, strong, and long-ranged it already is. I would remove the intangibility.
  • I still don't understand why they buffed U-tilt in a previous patch. I would make the sweetspot smaller and the sourspot weaker to make it a more tolerable frame 6 kill move, similar in risk to Mega Man's U-tilt.
  • The small nerf to Nikita really wasn't enough, as it's still way too agile and strong for a projectile that has minimal risk. Nerfing its agility or its power would immediately make it a more tolerable projectile.
  • I would also consider making the C4 a bit larger so it can't hide as easily, considering how strong it is in this game.

Voting for the bane of colorful ghosts, :ultpacman:.
(Final reminder to discuss Snake today, not Pac-Man!)
 
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#21
IMO Snake is a top tier. He matches well against characters that have to get up close to approach but suffers against characters that can zone him and get around his abysmal jump height. He has strong close range strategy and decent projectiles, plus good frame data.

Buffs snake could use IMO:
  • Make the movement of his up special less....Janky. I'm tired of getting stuck under the stage because of the way he moves in the initial startup.
  • Shave off some frames of f-air.
Nerfs snake could be dealt IMO:
  • Make u-tilt more punishable in the form of more endlag and/or less strength (seriously that move is better than half the upsmashes in this game).
  • Make it so C4 doesn't hit below platforms and make it more visible so it can be better seen and played around.
 

BlackInk

Smash Apprentice
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#22
I feel like snake is fine. He already has lots of obtains but he can be abused for his slower speed or by having his gimmicks work against him. Up-tilt is actually not annoying to deal with because of his already mentioned weaknesses in speed. Up-special is designed to give snake a great but vulnerable way to come back to the stage. Making that great recovery ‘less janky’, is actually a ridiculous design choice to make him even harder to edge-guard.
 
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#24
Last minute thoughts on Snake...

If you had to put a bomb on my chest on who was the best character, I'd pick Snake.
He control the game to his own liking and I feel he still has tons of room to grow.

To quote a previous post of mine:

:ultsnake: players are going to hate me after this.
But I do believe that nerfing him would be more healthier for the game's meta and fun factor.

-Up Smash FAF 55 > 60
(Heck even after chucking on five extra frames, this move would still be amazing)

-Down-Throw doesn't add more hitstun at higher percents, thus the move is purely for tech chasing and the kill confirm with Up-Tilt at 160+ is no longer true.
(Honestly, Snake is not lacking in kill options at all including throws so losing this would not hurt him. If anything this could allow Snake players to get more fun and creative with throw kill set-ups into other moves sort of like Duck Hunt. Down-Throw Up-Tilt is just too simple, boring and really doesn't need to be there.)

-Grenades take 45 frames longer to explode.
(It's more of a trade off if anything since this means Grenades could be out longer and cause more pressure, but this would just decrease those moments when you accidentally grab a grenade while attacking, then try throwing it away only for it to blow up in your face mid-throwing animation.)

-Grenades will only prematurely explode if they take 10% or more.
(Case and point, Grenades have 10 HP now. This is the only nerf I could think of that really doesn't benefit Snake at all since most of his moves do 10% or more. Anyway weaker attacks will now just stop them in there place sort of like :ulttoonlink: bombs now.)

-Nikita has way less Knockback Growth.
(Worse at killing and able to tech it more often. Snake's edge-guarding/ledge-trapping is good enough without it.)

-Nikita won't recover it's hitbox after you hit it then shield cancel it.
(Do I even have explain this one...)

-C4 has a smaller detonation hitbox, it can no longer hit most characters standing under the BF side platforms while the C4 is on the platform.
(The move is already insanely strong, fast and surprisingly hard to find. The giant hitbox it has now is just overkill considering how much space and options it can cover.)

-C4 can be destroyed similarly to Isabelle's Down-B.
(Why this wasn't a thing to begin with is beyond me.)
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
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#26
Snake's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Ippm7mIVX9ep9LvEH2YRguKBeIOrS1g/viewanalytics

As I mentioned I would do yesterday, I've made the polls much easier to fill out by excluding two questions whose answers should already be discussed in the thread: the specific changes you would make, and your vote.
Now you can more easily and quickly fill out the poll for general opinions, and then put your specific changes and your votes here.

This way we can promote more discussion between us, and we can be more likely to consolidate a vote so I don't have to use the randomizer as much.


With that being said, I had to use the randomizer again, and this time it chose :ultkingdedede:, so he will be our discussion topic for today.

Here's the poll for King Dedede: https://forms.gle/3tehve4RiyHZ45Hs8

And here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who will never have as good of a taunt as Dedede's crouch: :ultbayonetta: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultfalcon: :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf::ultdiddy: :ultdk: :ultdoc: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultgnw: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpacman: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultryu: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:


Remember to discuss the current character and cast your character vote in this thread! It's no longer in the poll!




I don't understand why Nintendo can never let :ultkingdedede: remain good. While he was a decent threat in Brawl, in the last two Smash games he has been released around mid tier and subsequently nerfed, presumably because of online and casual play. He's not as bad as he was in Smash 4, but he's still not very good. Here's how I would patch him up:
  • Jab should have less startup for hit 1 and end lag for hit 2. I would also prefer if hit 2 didn't lock but rather set up for combos.
  • U-tilt could use a bit more range. It is pitiful in comparison to Donkey Kong and Bowser's U-tilts.
  • I don't know why they would add another sourspot to the inner part of F-smash, considering how slow and generally unused it is. I would replace it with an extension of the sweetspot.
  • F-throw should probably be a little stronger. Being a heavyweight with no kill throws is a real pain in this game.
  • Further reduce the landing lag of F-air, U-air, D-air, and the early part of the flipping animation of Dedede Jump. His high landing lag is a big reason why he struggles to land as much as he does, and this change could potentially lead to new combos that he really needs.
  • I don't get why Gordo can't consistently stick to walls. They improved the likelihood it would stick, but why it can't it just be 100% of the time? When the Gordo does stick to the ledge, it leads to scary edgeguarding and ledge trapping situations, which Dedede desperately needs.
  • To slightly compensate, I could see Gordo Throw being altered so that the Gordo itself can't hit multiple times in a short time frame, by disabling its hitbox for a bit after a successful hit.

Voting for the leader of Wakka-nda, :ultpacman:.
 
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#27
DDD is pretty decent.
A buff or two would do him some good.


-Jab 1 startup 10 > 6.
-F-Tilt more KBG on the last hit so it can kill.
-F-Smash sweetspot during the inner drop at the start of F-Smash.
-Up-Air final hit angle 70/80 > 90.
-F & B-Throw more KGB so they can kill.
-Inhale windbox unblockable so people can't just shield then roll away.
-Gordo Stick works 100%.

I vote for :ultryu:
 
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#28
I don’t have many thoughts on Dedede (I actually don’t think he’s that bad), but I would like to talk about the first two characters that I missed.

I agree with the consensus that there’s pretty much never a reason to pick Marth over Lucina, and I think the best way to fix that is to make landing tippers less ridiculous. If not that, then increase the reward for landing them as they are because they’re not good enough to be desirable over Lucina’s consistent attacks. Also, do something about his Dancing Blade. It’s almost funny how dysfunctional the move is when it was one of the best in Smash 4.

Snake can do too much with too little effort, I think. He doesn’t need frame 1 Grenades, an up tilt that hits like smash attack with the speed of a jab, and a damn near unbeatable edgeguarding tool. I would decrease the knockback of up tilt’s sweetspot to make it as strong the sourspot is now, and then make the sourspot weaker as well. Nikita also gets a knockback decrease.

I vote Roy.
 
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#30
King Dedede: Probably a low tier, mid tier - if we're feeling generous. Disadvantaged in almost every matchup except against slower and less ranged fighters like King K. Rool or Piranha Plant.
Buffs he could use:
  • D-tilt: Frame 6 > 4
  • F-tilt: Frame 12 > 9
  • U-tilt: 7 > 6 frames
  • U smash: frame 17 > 12 startup, frame 67 (now 62) > 63 (now 58) endlag
  • F-air: Frame 41 > 31 endlag
  • Inhale: Frame 17 > 15
  • Give his jab a gentleman
  • Allow angling of f-tilt
  • Increase shield stun on dash attack
  • Increase sweetspot size on f-smash and d-air
  • Increase gordo reflecition to either 5% or make them un-reflectable
  • Increase airspeed
  • Give him a killthrow (he is the only heavy without one)
  • Make inhale unblockable so it can't be shielded
Nerfs he could be dealt:
  • Remove the inhale release buffer glitch that gives him a kill confirm
  • Edit gordos so they don't double hit
  • Remove the semi-spike from f-tilt
 

L1N3R1D3R

Smash Lord
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#31
King Dedede's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...RJT3hyn47cmjPSzudIqEnwT2xsEyhWw/viewanalytics


The randomizer picked :ultryu:, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/ZKUPSWUCXpG3YBuz7

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who may or may not be sure they can without Ryu telling them: :ultbayonetta: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultfalcon: :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultdoc: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultgnw: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpacman: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

Final reminder to discuss the current character and cast your character vote in this thread! Those questions are no longer in the poll!



:ultryu: is such a strange character. At launch he was better than Ken but still not very good, and now the patches have put him in a similar scenario to Marth where he is good but entirely outclassed by Ken. I won't say I know too much about Ryu, but here's how I would touch him up to make him comparable to Ken competitively:
  • I would restore N-air's combo ability from Smash 4. Ken gets this luxury because of its superior range and reduced end lag, so maybe Ryu's could do more damage but have the knockback reduced to make it more potent, as well as also having less end lag.
  • While Ryu's Tatsumaki has always been stronger than Ken's, the fact that Ken's is multi-hit and has lower end lag to make cross-ups an followups more threatening has always made it superior. While I would personally prefer nerfing Ken's version to balance the two out, realistically I understand how hard it is to play these characters, so I'll just buff Ryu. I would make his less laggy so that the trade-off is purely strength versus combos.
  • For some reason Ken's Shoryuken, whether it was the medium version pre-patch or the strong multi-hit version post-patch, has always been stronger than Ryu's single-hit Shoryuken with a small sweetspot. Just like with Tatsumaki, while I would personally prefer a nerf to Ken, realistically Ryu should get a buff to make the trade-off frequently worth it.

Voting for Puck-Ma-- oh, sorry, we can't let vandals ruin that name. How about :ultpacman:?
 

BlackInk

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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#32
I say Ryu is in a weird position for this game’s meta. His strengths in camping are less obvious than Ken’s oppressive close-combat game and he and ken are echo fighters in the same way Wolf and Fox are technically echo fighters, which is not really. It’s highly likely that he is a high-tier or even a top-tier. We just don’t even have enough data or time at this point to understand him. So I don’t even know if he feels like a weirdly incomplete but confident character, like Inkling and its poorly designed ink gimmick, or is a great character that’s just unpopular, like Pikachu and its ridiculous kit.

I vote for caption falcon.
 
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#38
That doesn’t even look bad or unfair. I say we leave it alone.
It really isn't unfair at all but it's clearly unintended. I'd like them to leave it alone but from and objective standpoint if it isn't intended then it should be removed.

Moving on to Ryu, I think thanks to his buffs he's moved to a mid/high tier but I can't think of any individual buffs or nerfs that he needs....maybe other than fixing his new kill confirms (but that mainly applies to Ken).

I vote Lucina
 
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BlackInk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
169
#39
It really isn't unfair at all but it's clearly unintended. I'd like them to leave it alone but from and objective standpoint if it isn't intended then it should be removed.

Moving on to Ryu, I think thanks to his buffs he's moved to a mid/high tier but I can't think of any individual buffs or nerfs that he needs....maybe other than fixing his new kill confirms (but that mainly applies to Ken).

I vote Lucina
I don’t care what’s intended when I see Inking’s up-air, down-air, up-tilt, and it’s poor-designed ink mechanic or Captain Falcon’s terrible changes to this game from smash 4.

Plus, the Dedede mains that use this unintended mechanic are just making this character more interesting, fun, and viable. They are no different from the Ice Climbers when it comes to unintended exploits. So let them have their unique tools.
 
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#40
:ultryu: is such a strange character. At launch he was better than Ken but still not very good, and now the patches have put him in a similar scenario to Marth where he is good but entirely outclassed by Ken.
You summed it up perfectly.
He's a fun as heck character to watch who really needs a bigger player-base.

Sorry to say, but I'm still for nerfing the better echo over buffing the original because F**************** Flaming Upper-cut.
I don't care, that move is stupid broken and no one deserves something that good.

I vote for :ultdk: mainly just to see why opinions of him are dropping.
 
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