ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: *crickets*

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the three votes, the randomizer picked :ultike:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Ike's poll here: https://forms.gle/ZyynB21bKw4kbZuv7
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Ike and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultincineroar: :ultisabelle: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Zero Suit Samus's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...xWYbntK_-JCiI_w7lYs31kK6Mx73J8g/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultike: is a pretty balanced character right now, ever since people learned that Leo's results with him were because of Leo, not because of Ike. While his N-air is quite good when it connects, he's pretty predictable in the neutral game, making it not a real problem. And considering his mediocre speed and bad recovery, he really needs these confirms in order to stay relevant. In my mind he's mostly good as is, but he could use a little tuning up:
  • F-air's landing lag wasn't reduced very much in the big picture, and its ending autocancel window was actually shortened, making it harder to land with especially now that it's weaker. I would further reduce the landing lag and revert the ending autocancel window to its status in Smash 4.
  • I don't get why B-air and Counter were nerfed from Smash 4, as they weren't that good. Please revert those nerfs.
  • As part of a universal change I would make preventing connecting hits of moves from killing off the bottom early, his Aether would invariably be unable to kill the opponent off the bottom first as a suicide. To compensate, I would make the landing hit a little stronger so it kills earlier on stage like Chrom's.

Voting for :ultdk:, let's go, let's go, here he comes, banana slamma!
 
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Relative to the rest of the cast, Ike is in a pretty good spot. In an ideal world, every character would be balanced up or down to around his level, I feel. But there are some things that could be done to make him more fun and interesting overall, because he is pretty one-note right now.

  • Increase up tilt’s knockback. It doesn’t necessarily have to be as strong as in Smash 4, but strong enough to KO somewhat reliably.
  • Increase forward smash’s shieldstun. This move is so badly telegraphed that you’ll almost never land it, so at least let it be safe on shield. I don’t really see why Ganondorf’s forward smash gets to be faster, safer, and as strong as Ike’s when they’re basically the same move.
  • Do the same with up smash.
  • Some more speed on down smash would be appreciated since it’s pretty much a dead move right now.
  • Slightly increase the landing lag on neutral air, thus no longer making it the Swiss Army knife of aerials. Since some of Ike’s other moves have been buffed up, his move usage will be more varied and less flowchart-y.
  • Slightly decrease the startup of down air to give it more utility.
  • As a former Ike main, I would love it if Aether sweetspotted the ledge, but that might be asking too much.
I don’t think these changes would affect Ike’s overall standing too heavily, but they would definitely make Ike players happy since they now have more moves to work with.

I vote Wolf.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultike:, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Donkey Kong's poll here: https://forms.gle/RLmHTsyETjGb5Mma9
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Donkey Kong and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultincineroar: :ultisabelle: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Ike's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Z4GdWFf8q34l4hEwS2FbiK-vDeVsduw/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


I remember when we all thought that :ultdk: was the best super-heavyweight before launch and in the first couple of months. We were clearly overlooking his weaknesses while emphasizing his strengths, and his results have nothing to show for himself. On the other hand, Bowser is clearly the best super-heavyweight right now, and he does have the results to show for it, despite mostly coming from one player. Meanwhile Donkey Kong got stuck with a a grab game that is no longer broken, a mediocre neutral game, mediocre frame data, bad recovery, and a bad time trying to land. Here's how I would buff him:
  • Considering how much his combo game out of grab got nerfed and how much grabs in general were nerfed, I think it's silly that his grabs were also nerfed as much as they were. I would reduce the end lag of all variations of grab so that the overall change from Smash 4 is only a few frames like the rest of the cast. I know he has several throws that can kill, but his grab is not even worth going for at lower percents despite U-throw still having combos. Compare this to Bowser, who got a similar nerf to his U-throw but whose grab was even buffed in some cases despite the nerf to pivot grab's range.
  • Remember when we saw his F-air in the original trailers and loved how much faster it was? Well, either we were fooled or they went back on their decision, because it's still just almost as slow as Smash 4 for no real reason. Decrease its startup.
  • Compared to the amazing and versatile burying moves of G&W, Inkling, and ZSS, DK's Headbutt is the clear black sheep of the group. Despite having super armor and being able to break shields, it's just too reactable and punishable to be a threat. Decrease its overall lag, and make it stronger in the air.
  • Despite being more consistent, Spinning Kong is clearly not as useful as it was in Smash 4. It's way too slow on the ground to be useful, and its decreased duration in the air makes it worse at horizontal recovery and racking up damage. Decrease its startup on the ground, and make it last a bit longer (i.e. hit a couple more times before launching them, and also travel a bit farther) in the air.


Voting for :ultwolf:, who is better than you despite you being good.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Nobody else voted, replied to the thread, or responded to the poll, so my vote for :ultwolf: wins, and he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Wolf's poll here: https://forms.gle/LFtfqCWUgnnUu1Jx7
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Wolf and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultincineroar: :ultisabelle: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Donkey Kong's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...9L1KkWyKLl-rIvFGCBY_LJzDXvyWVSg/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultwolf: has been on a roller coaster in this game. He wasn't seen to be too good at release, but then immediately rose to top tier for good reason after a couple of months. However, with his biggest representatives seeming to drop the character, his results are much worse than the theory would seem to show. Maybe the meta's evolving to handle him better, but I still think he's at least high tier, and needs rebalancing overall:
  • Despite being altered twice, D-smash is still a little silly. After buffing its BKB but nerfing its KBG in 3.0.0, they did the opposite in 3.1.0, but the amount they buffed its KBG means that it can potentially kill even earlier than it did before. I would revert that change from 3.1.0.
  • While they put all their focus on D-smash, they completely ignored B-air, which is also a ridiculous move. Despite decent startup, it has massive power, and it's able to autocancel in a short-hop fast fall and only four frames after the hitbox has finished, which makes it way too safe for its power. I would revert its KBG buff from Brawl, and make its autocancel start late enough to where it can only autocancel in a short hop with no fast fall.
  • On the other hand, after its hitbox was justifiably reduced, Fire Wolf is no longer a very scary recovery, so there's no reason it should be that bad at recovering. Increase its travel distance, potentially to its status in Brawl.
  • And while the buffs to Reflector in 3.1.0 were okay, it was only a single frame cut off of its startup, which doesn't change much at all. Also, it doesn't reflect until frame 9, which is 3 frames after its hitbox comes out, in comparison to Fox and Mii Gunner whose reflectors come out frame 4, a single frame after their hitboxes come out. Cut off one or two frames of its end lag, and make it reflect projectiles a couple frames earlier.

Voting for :ultfox: only, no items, Final Destination.
 
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Wolf’s main issue isn’t that he’s obscenely broken or anything, he’s just very good at too many things. I don’t think he really needs that many nerfs to balance him out.

  • Either weaken down smash so that it doesn’t wipe you off the face of the earth or decrease its vertical hitbox so that it can’t snag you from below the ledge.
  • Make dash attack slightly more punishable on shield. The fact that this move crosses shields make it a lot more annoying to deal with than it should be.
  • Blaster does not need to be doing 8%-10%, let’s be reasonable.
  • Slightly increase Wolf Flash’s travel distance, but make it slightly weaker in return.
  • Revert Fire Wolf’s startup and travel distance back to how it was in Brawl.
Voting Fox.
 
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I'm late, but I got a few opinions on the pass few characters.

I never felt :4zss: was that great and it seems like the devs felt the same cause they buffed her a little too much IMO.
I swear they gave her too much speed and mobility that canceled out the down-throw nerf everyone made a big stink about and she is one of the few non-sword and projectile users who has insanely good camping to the point where in some MU's once she gets the lead, she doesn't have to approach ever again and it's not fun to play against at all.

-Revert her mobility buffs from Sm4sh expect initial dash, change that from 2.42 to 2.2. (She was already fast enough as is, she doesn't need to be even quicker)

-Flip Kick: FAF 39 to 50, Horizontal control speed 0.7 to 0.5, Kick Attack hitbox 3 (BKB 45 to 30, KBG 102 to 100), Footstool Attack hitbox cancel out once you land, Kick Attack FAF 59 to 50. (This move is honestly too good, it's very spammable, very strong and it's dumb good for camping. It doesn't need to be this annoying.)

-Boost Kick Final Hit: KBG 209 to 200

-Down-Throw: FAF 52 to 46 (I figured I'd throw her a bone considering all the nerfs I gave her.)

Yeah I'm don't like :ultzss: design very much.

While it's cool to see him viable in this game, they took the :4bowser:/:4dk: route on him and I'm not a fan of it.
The rest of moveset is just kind of okay compared to Nair, let's fix that.

-F-Smash: FAF 83 to 69 (Similar to :ultganondorf:'s)

-Up-Smash: FAF 70 to 61 (Similar to :ultganondorf:'s)

-Down-Smash: FAF 70 to 60

-N-Air: Landing Lag 8 to 12, both hitboxes KGB 105 to 145. (It doesn't kill confirm, but it kills at late percents now)

-F-Air: damage 11.5% to 13%, BKB/KBG (55 to 30, 65 to 88), Auto Cancel 42 to 35 (Similar to it's Sm4sh counterpart)

-B-Air: Revert hitbox nerf

-Up-Throw: KBG 72 to 140 (It now kills at super high percents)

-Aether Landing hit: KBG 115 to 140 (It now kills at super high percents)

-Counter: Revert FAF nerf


It just goes to show what a few nerfs to an up-b can do to you.
IMO he's so close to be a high tier but is just off in a few areas.

-Up-Smash: Now has a linking hits frame 12-13 on the hands when rising which deals 3%, Up-Smash now has priority, it does reduced damage (19% to 16%). This makes both hits deal the same amount as the sweetspot/raw Up Smash in vanilla.

-Revert the grab FAF nerfs.

-Cargo D-Throw: Angle 361 to 52 degrees. (This move destroys characters with bad-recoveries and it's kind of dumb)

-Up-B: Grounded ver FAF 105 to 93, Aerial ver duration 54 to 94, reverted damage on multi-hits from Sm4sh, it grants intangibility on frames 3-6 on start-up like in Sm4sh.

-Down-B: Grounded ver KBG: 23 to 58 (It now kills at super high percents)


I agree with the posts above, :ultwolf: isn't over-powered just over-tuned.
He just needs a few slaps on the wrist.

-D-Smash: Change the front swipe of hitbox 3 (the stupid powerful one) to match the other hitboxes.

-B-Air: Change hitbox 3 (the stupid powerful one) to match hitbox 2 (the not weak hit).

-Blaster: Laser early hitbox damage swapped with the late hitbox damage. (The close range hit does more damage, the late projectile does less)

-F-Throw: Throw Damage 4% to 7%
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


:ultfox: received the most votes, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Fox's poll here: https://forms.gle/P3Ga4C6EggzXnJ746
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Fox and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultincineroar: :ultisabelle: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Wolf's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...VUAGe4msiefMBUVKUxSJ8d09a-ub-tA/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultfox: is pretty much propelled by Light at this stage, so opinions of Fox have gone up and down as Light has succeeded and failed. While still amazing, Fox's advantage state isn't oppressive in this game because other characters can contest with his combination of frame data and damage. Overall I think the character is still on the verge of top tier, and could use some rebalancing:
  • For some reason they made his F-smash and U-smash overpowered in this game while leaving D-smash only decent. I would revert the knockback buff for F-smash and the range buff for U-smash, but make D-smash a little stronger to compensate.
  • Why did they nerf B-throw directly and D-throw indirectly? I would make those two moves less laggy so they're useful again.
  • Despite fixing many other multi-hit moves, Fox's F-air is still easy to fall out of. This move would be targeted in my universal multi-hit consistency buff.

Voting for :ultincineroar:, who is probably somebody's fetish.
 
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I don’t play Fox so I have no idea tbh

I vote Incineroar as well
Totally not bcz he’s my main in Ultimate
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


:ultincineroar: received the most votes, so he will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Incineroar's poll here: https://forms.gle/Hi3ZZhQ1G298zdMg8
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Incineroar and how you would change it.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultisabelle: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: ((:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:)) :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Fox's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...I23ZVyKp8Xcmz6Y6qdzZcrff_dmQJbA/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultincineroar: is a pretty alright character. Most of its results are coming from Magister, though brandon and Mew2king are also notable. Its biggest problems come from having bad movement, which hurt its neutral and recovery the most. Here's what I would buff:
  • Its movement shouldn't be THAT bad. I would slightly buff all its movement speed, especially on the ground where it is the definitive slowest character (it has the slowest walk speed and run speed, and its initial dash speed is bottom 10).
  • Its jab is a little pitiful right now. I would make it stronger or less laggy to make it either a decent kill move or a decent combo starter.
  • F-air and B-air have surprisingly unforgiving autocancels, making them hard to use in neutral. You can't even autocancel F-air in a full hop, and you'd be hard pressed to autocancel B-air in a full hop. Significantly increase the autocancel windows of both of these moves, especially F-air.
  • D-air is quite mediocre in comparison to his other normals. I would increase its spike hitbox or make its sourspot hitbox stronger.
  • Alolan Whip has horrible consistency issues if anything interacts with either Incineroar or his victim, and Cross Chop no longer connects as well after it gained height with no compensation of knockback on the first hit. Fix both of these moves.
  • Revenge is good at buffing damage, but surprisingly it doesn't buff knockback as much as you'd think. Make the knockback scale equivalently to the damage to make this counter a larger threat, especially considering how easy it is to get rid of.

Voting for :ultisabelle:, who deserves a break from her job.
 
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Revenge is good at buffing damage, but surprisingly it doesn't buff knockback as much as you'd think. Make the knockback scale equivalently to the damage to make this counter a larger threat, especially considering how easy it is to get rid of.
Dear God, no. Have you seen the absolute havoc Revenge can wreak when it’s stacked? If you make it any larger of a threat, it’d delete characters from the game.
 
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What a blast this character is, although it's a shame he's uncommon because my god this character is rare to come across.
He's got the power, but rarely any speed.

-Walk Speed: 0.62 to 0.9
-Initial Dash: 1.76 to 1.85
-Run Speed: 1.18 to 1.4
-Air Speed: 0.88 to 0.93

-F-Air: Auto-Cancel 46 to 26 frames, Landing Lag 14 to 9 frames.
-B-Air: Auto-Cancel 36 to 26 frames.
-D-air: Has a bigger spike and sourspot hitbox, Landing Lag 16 to 13 frames.

-All normal Grabs have slightly more range.
-F-Throw: Knockback Growth 52 to 60.
 
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Oh boy... here we go...
Incineroar is so much fun. Like, I can’t begin to tell you how much enjoyment I have gotten from seeing the hope seep from my opponent’s bodies as Incineroar forces them to run the ropes. Boy, oh boy.
Anyways, Incineroar is a difficult character, since he’s just so strong, yet so slow. But the speed comes in good heart—if he were fast, he would be an absolute menace that just ruins the game. So it makes sense. Buffing his speed TOO much would just result in a bats**t insane character, so we’ll keep it kind of brief.
If they were to buff his speed by a good amount however, I wouldn’t mind some nerfs to, perhaps Revenge or his F-Smash (THE THING KILLS AT 50 SOMETIMES!)

I vote :ultsamus:, who is heavier than Ridley for some unknown reason.
 

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Dear God, no. Have you seen the absolute havoc Revenge can wreak when it’s stacked? If you make it any larger of a threat, it’d delete characters from the game.
You have to consider that in order to have massive buffs, you first have to counter a really strong attack or multiple weaker attacks and then have the next move you land be a strong move. This is hard when counters are predictable, and you can lose all of it after taking a certain amount of percent or being grabbed once. It's not like Arsene where you can hold the counter even through multi-hits, and then your whole moveset is buffed for quite some time. Sure, it could be very devastating, but it's much rarer and riskier than you might think, and it's kinda weird seeing a move that does 80% not always kill even at low percents. If you're still scared I wouldn't mind a small nerf to both scalings after they're synchronized, but my point is that they should scale together, which they currently don't.
 
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You have to consider that in order to have massive buffs, you first have to counter a really strong attack or multiple weaker attacks and then have the next move you land be a strong move. This is hard when counters are predictable, and you can lose all of it after taking a certain amount of percent or being grabbed once. It's not like Arsene where you can hold the counter even through multi-hits, and then your whole moveset is buffed for quite some time. Sure, it could be very devastating, but it's much rarer and riskier than you might think, and it's kinda weird seeing a move that does 80% not always kill even at low percents. If you're still scared I wouldn't mind a small nerf to both scalings after they're synchronized, but my point is that they should scale together, which they currently don't.
It’s a high risk to go with the high reward.

Consider the fact that it’s even possible to do 80% in one move. You really want it to be possible for Incineroar to deal you that much damage and then probably one-shot you on top of that?
 

L1N3R1D3R

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It’s a high risk to go with the high reward.

Consider the fact that it’s even possible to do 80% in one move. You really want it to be possible for Incineroar to deal you that much damage and then probably one-shot you on top of that?
You're really being more afraid than you should. Again, Revenge only affects its next move landed, so in order to do what you're afraid of he would have to fish for strong kill options, which is easy to adapt to. Really the only mixup would be Alolan Whip or B-throw, and if he hits any other move in the meantime all that Revenge would essentially be wasted on a much weaker move. He can hit shield with other moves without losing the buff, sure, but the effect wears off over time and with more and more whiffed moves, and the opponent can choose to eat one of these moves instead of shielding it to remove the buff. And again, you have to charge it through a counter, and the counter isn't especially good like Rebel's Guard because it has a set duration. It just sucks that Incineroar has to go through all that risk to land a really strong move with Revenge, only for it to not kill sometimes and then it has to find another way to kill.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Between the two votes, the randomizer picked :ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:, so they will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Samus & Dark Samus's poll here: https://forms.gle/hdQPgtmmR8LrPsuo9
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Samus & Dark Samus and how you would change them.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultisabelle: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Incineroar's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...FzJujZxQYM2AUoUE_WGW0tY6iEdbHYA/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus: are in a pretty good position right now. We thought at first that they were gutted because they lost dash attack as a combo starter, but it's a pretty good kill move now, so I'm fine with that. YB and quiK represented them well earlier in the year at 2GG: Prime Saga, and recently Joker has been doing quite well with them, getting top 12 at Low Tier City 7 and now again at 2GG: SwitchFest 2019. I still would like to give them two buffs, though:
  • Why does Nintendo go out of their way to mention how bad their jab is at connecting, instead of just making it connect properly?
  • Their move that was actually gutted between games, unlike dash attack, is U-air. Despite connecting better at the feet, it connects worse at the legs, it has significantly more landing lag, and it effectively has more end lag (the last hit comes out earlier with no change in FAF). Revert all these nerfs.


Voting for :ultisabelle:, the character who overcame He Who Must Not Be Named at a local.
 
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Samus...
Pretty decent character, imo. Charge Shot pretty much is the character.
However, a change I would make would be revert the change to her ZAir. Why...?

I vote :ultisabelle:, the character who should have a job fishing instead of being a mayor.
 
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For the love of all that is holy, give Samus a jab. I don’t even know why this is a problem.
You're really being more afraid than you should. Again, Revenge only affects its next move landed, so in order to do what you're afraid of he would have to fish for strong kill options, which is easy to adapt to. Really the only mixup would be Alolan Whip or B-throw, and if he hits any other move in the meantime all that Revenge would essentially be wasted on a much weaker move. He can hit shield with other moves without losing the buff, sure, but the effect wears off over time and with more and more whiffed moves, and the opponent can choose to eat one of these moves instead of shielding it to remove the buff. And again, you have to charge it through a counter, and the counter isn't especially good like Rebel's Guard because it has a set duration. It just sucks that Incineroar has to go through all that risk to land a really strong move with Revenge, only for it to not kill sometimes and then it has to find another way to kill.
You’re not being afraid enough.

It’s not like Incineroar is short of ways to erase stocks. I just fail to see the need to make a move capable of casually ending people at like, 60% stronger. The only way making Revenge stronger would be a good idea is if it would take less damage to get rid of it in turn.
 
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Oh boy, if this game's online was better, I might actually enjoy fighting against :ultsamus:.
I can't think of many ways to buff her without being even more irritating online.
Any who:

-Jab 1: Hitstun 4 to 6, transition into second hit frame 15 to 7 (It finally connects)

-D-Tilt: FAF 45 to 40 frames.

-D-Smash Hit 1 and 2: Knockback Growth 58 to 70

-Up-Air: Landing Lag 18 to 8.

-Dash Grab: FAF 67 to 64 frames


As for :ultdarksamus:, just make her a :ultdoc: like clone.

I vote for :ultisabelle:.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


:ultisabelle: received the most votes, so she will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Isabelle's poll here: https://forms.gle/k9s9y7332AZ4B2g9A
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Isabelle and how you would change her.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ultshulk: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Samus & Dark Samus's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfoCCWe9zhM1rktTxcJaoimPr8oNB_xGfSz204KsyaLStjr1g/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


Even after she finally got real buffs in 4.0.0, :ultisabelle: is still lacking in many places, and thus doesn't see much representation outside of kept. Here's what I would buff about her:
  • Oddly enough, my first change would be a slight nerf. I'm worried that if the rest of her kit is good, then her jab wobble on the edge of the stage might be a real problem. Therefore I would make jab push the opponent off the ledge so it doesn't do that. If that's impossible, I would make it push her back more so she can't adjust in time for another jab in the same place and would eventually be too far away.
  • Anyway, her other tilts are still lackluster. F-tilt and D-tilt should be stronger, and U-tilt should be less laggy.
  • U-smash's knockback buff would be good if it actually had range. Increase the size of this move.
  • Like Villager, her grab is just too laggy for its reward, especially with how bad grabs are in this game. Decrease its lag.
  • N-air is quite hard to land against anyone who's faster than her because of its bad range. Increase its range.
  • Fishing Rod is pretty good, but the fact that shielding the initial throw completely neuters it hinders its versatility. I would make it stop on shield rather than bouncing off it, so the opponent would still be able to be grabbed from the same position should she choose to reel it in.
  • Also, Fishing Rod's D-throw has no use in the air. Ideally I'd like it to be turned into a soft spiking move, but realistically I would decrease its lag and its knockback so she can true combo out of it if she has a double jump.


Voting for :ultshulk:, who finally got big results last weekend at SwitchFest.
 
Last edited:

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST

Sorry this is so late, the moving took so long that I forgot to update this until now.


Anyway, despite all the votes for Isabelle, nobody talked about her or voted, so my vote for :ultshulk: wins.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Shulk's poll here: https://forms.gle/FwCJc9564nTvzLrm7
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Shulk and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Isabelle's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfUbUu3fZTWW_Ua0KFN0Y1deYcMb5iOx165-xHbuKYhMVyNKg/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultshulk: finally got the results to prove his potential this past weekend! Five different Shulk players got top 64 at SwitchFest, most notably Kome getting 3rd. From what I saw, there's one ridiculous aspect he has that I would tone down, but also a few other things I would buff to compensate:
  • Changing Monado Arts while in hit stun is honestly a little bit silly. The whole point of Monado Arts is switching when you feel like you'll be able to take advantage of it, not switching to shield art while you're already getting hit (especially if you were in jump art or smash art before).
  • On the contrary, D-tilt and D-smash didn't really get much attention between games when they really needed it. They would both benefit from a decrease in lag, which would make D-tilt better at starting combos and D-smash not as unsafe for its relatively low power.
  • His throws got neutered in this game. F-throw and B-throw should not have gotten damage nerfs, and D-throw should either also get its old damage back or have less end lag for better combos.
  • Additionally, it seems like Vision is much harder to land in this game, which isn't helped by its reduced knockback. Whatever causes this, fix it.


Voting for :ultcorrinf:, and not because of her feet.
 
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I’m lazy, so I don’t feel like typing rn.
Also, I missed Isabelle’s day :(

I vote :ultcorrinf:, since she has A WEIRD THUMB IN HER FSMASH!
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


:ultcorrinf: received the most votes, so they will be discussed today.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Corrin's poll here: https://forms.gle/P3GBEfv9rZRUtYA59
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Corrin and how you would change them.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!

We're discussing Banjo & Kazooie tomorrow, don't vote today. See next post.


This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Shulk's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfj5H6o0cIzlajllUDWltYdMk9CiCH_UBt8cXo80qi7Zy8mow/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultcorrinf: suffers the same problem as Marth where Lucina pretty much invalidates the need to play either of them. Some of the nerfs she got between games were unnecessary, and she didn't get a big issue addressed to compensate, which I would fix:
  • While their speed was buffed, it still isn't enough to rival the high speed of the other characters in the game. Buff it more.
  • Why on earth did they nerf F-smash's range? Isn't its whole gimmick supposed to be its big range?
  • They should have just made F-air have a lower FAF rather than give it more startup with the same FAF. It's not very useful anymore.
  • D-air wasn't given any less landing lag for some reason. It's very punishable upon landing, and it doesn't even kill or combo, so why is it still laggy?

Voting for :ultdiddy:, who's flipping bananas! (I'm sorry) See next post.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Wow, 5.0.0 came much sooner than I anticipated.

Today is still Corrin's day.
However, rather than voting for other characters today, we'll discuss early impressions of Banjo & Kazooie tomorrow.
Since not much changed in the patch balance-wise, we'll transition straight into 5.0.0 right after that.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Today we'll be discussing early impressions of :ultbanjokazooie:.

Tomorrow we'll transition right into patch 5.0.0, since not much changed balance-wise.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Banjo & Kazooie's poll here: https://forms.gle/LJf8SB911Fh3rP9P7
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Banjo & Kazooie and how you would change them.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Corrin's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...iDVvYu0AvoMB177XSO5X7Xwac8QClFQ/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultbanjokazooie: seems like a really fun, but still mid-low tier character. Unlike Plant, he feels like a functional character, though he does have some crazy moves to balance out some of the more dysfunctional ones. Here's what I would change at this point:
  • U-tilt is like a less laggy but otherwise worse version of Snake's. If it had a sourspot to cover their front side, they would be good.
  • D-tilt has too much startup to do 7% fresh, especially considering F-tilt has similar range. It could either do more damage, have less lag, or launch upward and it would be better.
  • For being a "get off me" throw that doesn't kill, F-throw doesn't send opponents that far. Increase its knockback a little.
  • U-throw feels like it should have followups, but it's just too laggy to do that. Reduce its end lag, but increase its KBG so it doesn't combo at high percents.
  • Their N-air is by far the slowest of its kind, and it shouldn't be. Reduce its startup.
  • I don't know what it is exactly, but F-air's autocancel feels oddly precise to land. I would make it more generous.
  • B-air and U-air are decent, but would be better if they dealt more damage. You can compensate B-air's knockback, but not U-air's.
  • D-air is horrible, and would benefit from a larger and stronger sweetspot and less landing lag.
  • Breegull Blaster is just too laggy to warrant use as a good zoning tool. Reduce its overall lag.
  • Wonderwing can be a little silly, but it can also be risky. I would decrease its knockback so it can't kill at 50 on stage, but also decrease its end lag.
  • Finally, and totally unrelated to gameplay, can they please zoom in on their render in the character select screen, and especially in the splash screen before the fight? It honestly looks ugly right now, and it's probably the least polished part about the last patch.

Voting for :ultdiddy:, one of their cheerleaders in the release trailer.
 
Last edited:

L1N3R1D3R

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TODAY'S OFFICIAL UPDATE POST


Nobody else voted or talked, so my vote for :ultdiddy:wins.


Here's what you should do when you see this post:
  1. Respond to Diddy Kong's poll here: https://forms.gle/xUxskvbvqwtSTV7z9
  2. Reply to this thread with your specific thoughts about Diddy Kong and how you would change him.
  3. At the end of your reply, vote for one of the eligible characters remaining below by saying "Voting for ___". The one with the most votes will be discussed tomorrow, and will be removed from the list of eligible characters until every character has had a day of discussion.
:ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf::ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultken: :ultkirby: :ultlucario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultbrawler: :ultness: :ultpalutena: ((:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:)) :ultrobinf: :ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda:


N.B.: Feel free to vote for the same character as somebody else so I don't have to use the randomizer as much!
And if you vote for a character, make sure to visit this thread the next day in case they win so you can share your opinions about them!



This is an example of a thread run just like this one but for Smash 4, so you understand what's happening.


=========================================================


Banjo & Kazooie's results from yesterday: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...3WPj7PH5rmiDaBQDu1QlDroAy0lIILw/viewanalytics


Also remember that I'm still considering advertising this thread in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.
If anyone here has an idea of how to advertise there without breaking the rules of that thread, please message me privately and let me know.


=========================================================


:ultdiddy: is honestly a pretty underrated character. While he's mid tier at best, I'd wager he's upper mid tier after the buffs since he now has plenty of tools at his disposal. Of course, Inkling does everything he does and more, which is why not many people opt to play him. Here's what I would buff:
  • Jab and F-tilt are kinda laggy for their usefulness. I would decrease the end lag of jab and the startup of F-tilt.
  • Despite buffs, U-air still feels kinda weak. It doesn't really kill, and it's still too laggy to combo into things because of the lower hit stun. Maybe it's because I can never land the move due to the blind spot that now exists in front of him, which is kinda silly. Just fix this move.
  • Even in Brawl and Smash 4, I never understood why he wasn't able to use Rocketbarrel Boost after using Monkey Flip's kick. Especially now that Monkey Flip has been toned down in this game, it really feels weak to not be able to go offstage with the kick. Change this property.
  • I also don't know why they removed Rocketbarrel Boost's spike hitbox from Brawl. As long as it's not too strong, it would be a welcome change.

Voting for :ultganondorf:, something something DORIYAH!
 
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Damn this thread is dead...

I guess Ganon wins. He’s fun to play, but I feel that Doriyah should be toned down a bit. A laggy move being used in competitive simply because it’s extremely strong just shows this move is dumb.

I vote :ultpalutena:, the Goddess of something that’s definitely a light color ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Damn this thread is dead...
I figured I didn't want to keep it alive if I was just talking to myself. This almost happened twice in the past, but both times I gave out a warning that I would close the thread on the day before, and suddenly the thread was active again. This time I figured nobody truly cared and they had just been trying to make me feel better, and wouldn't you know, there's no posts for 10 days.

Anyway, I probably won't update it until there's more activity, since you haven't visited this thread daily in the past and I don't want to talk to myself again.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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I guess since Ganon was discussed, I can share my thoughts on what balance changes he needs:
  • Slightly increase overall speed
  • Slightly reduce damage of DORIYAH
  • Make Warlock Punch propel him forward a little in the air (or something to make it have a niche use, that's just my idea)
  • Reduce end lag of successful Dark Dive to remove Rock Crocking

I would still like some more traction before committing to updating this again. It takes at least 15 minutes to update, which is not a trivial time commitment.
 
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Call_Me_Red

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I guess since Ganon was discussed, I can share my thoughts on what balance changes he needs:
  • Slightly increase overall speed
  • Slightly reduce damage of DORIYAH
  • Make Warlock Punch propel him forward a little in the air (or something to make it have a niche use, that's just my idea)
  • Reduce end lag of successful Dark Dive to remove Rock Crocking

I would still like some more traction before committing to updating this again. It takes at least 15 minutes to update, which is not a trivial time commitment.
I honestly don't think Ganon needs any buffs. If we wanted to make him top tier, sure, but that's not Ganon's MO. If anything he struggles against projectiles, but overall he's the nicest he's ever been in Smash history. He's just bad enough that getting styled on by Ganon feels bad, but just good enough that no one blinks an eye when they see a Ganon on screen. I think he's actually really well balanced.
 
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This time I figured nobody truly cared and they had just been trying to make me feel better, and wouldn't you know, there's no posts for 10 days.
I genuinely want to post here, but life’s just really been gettin’ in the way as of late. Sorry, but I just don’t always have the time to post daily. Believe me, I would if I could. :)
 
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